Debug advice Kenmore coldspot 106-59422801 stopped refrigera

On Mon, 11 Jul 2016 23:15:58 -0400, Bob Engelhardt wrote:

> That's good - I would use the 15A range, 3A isn't going to be enough.

Hi Bob,
Thanks for sticking with me in my hour of need!

I think the problem is mechanical, so I'd first like to clarify the inlet
and outlet.

Is the inlet on the right and the outlet on the left in this picture?
http://i.cubeupload.com/9ZZ7fw.jpg

I am not sure if I interpret Locked Rotor Amperage (LRA) specs correctly
(from googling), but this sticker on the R134a compressor shows a LRA of
17.6 amps, so I think the inrush current is 17.6 amps, so that would take
the 30A scale, at least initially.
http://i.cubeupload.com/34bCaq.jpg

I tried the test with the capacitor, and without the capacitor (using a
screwdriver to momentarily short the RUN and START terminals).

Then, as you suggested, I started on the 30A scale:
http://i.cubeupload.com/QzjAQt.jpg

On the 30A scale, the inductive current is 12A:
http://i.cubeupload.com/4gpdlF.jpg

On the 15A scale of the meter, the meter is pegged:
http://i.cubeupload.com/sOBHcz.jpg

I also doublechecked the resistance, which seems to show good numbers:
A. COMMON to START = about 5 ohms (hard to read the Rx100 scale)
B. COMMON to RUN = slightly less than 5 ohms
C. START to RUN = slightly less than 10 ohms

Given all that, I tentatively assume that the motor is working fine
electrically; but that mechanically, it seems to be locked up.

However, I would have expected 17.6 Amps if the motor were locked up, so,
I'm curious why I get 12 Amps instead - but maybe that's because it never
started?
 
On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 00:02:40 -0400, tom wrote:

The small line on the far right is the compressor high side (output). The
bent tube in the center is the process tube where the system is pulled to
vacuum then charged with refrigerant. The tube on the left is the suction
line and pulls evaporated cold gas from the cold coils inside the
refrigerator.

Do a google search on refrigeration cycle for more details.

It should begin to heat up quickly (minutes or so) if the compressor is
running.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the information as to what the three tubes are.

How is the annotation on this photo?
http://i.cubeupload.com/LQ7jqz.jpg

The LRA is 17.6 amps and with just two leads on the RUN and COMMON, it's
pulling 12 Amps.

I think I have to figure out whether there is a "restriction" in the flow
of the R134a fluid/gas.
 
On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 11:36:19 -0400, tom wrote:

The drawing looks correct.

I don't think it is a restriction in the gas circuit. Leaving the unit sit
for a day would most likely let the pressures to equalize.

It might be a mechanical issue like a reed valve broken and jamming the
piston.
Click to expand...

I don't know any other way to test for "mechanical" operation of the
compressor.
 
On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 09:29:43 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 wrote:

What mechanical part? Like I posted days ago. You said that you took
the cap to the parts store, they verified it was good. You have 120V
going to the start and run winding, it doesn't start. You now know it's
not something simple and cheap to fix. What more is
there to do? Either get a new fridge or be prepared to spend:

A - $150 for a tech to come out and tell you what you already know,
plus an estimate to fix it, and it will likley be just an estimate.

B - Following step A, are you prepared to spend $500+ to fix it?

That's all you need to figure out.
Click to expand...

I think the compressor is electrically good, and I think the start cap is
electrically good and I think the relay/overload is electrically good.

In addition to a mechanically bad compressor, that still leaves either low
R34a or a blockage (neither of which is likely), although a compressor
mechanically going bad in just 6 years is also unlikely since they're built
to last longer than that.

It would be fantastic if I could find a picture of what is inside the
hermetically sealed black box. It's amazingly difficult to find.
 
"Danny D." <dannydiamico@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:nm31ki$383$1@gioia.aioe.org...
On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 00:02:40 -0400, tom wrote:

The small line on the far right is the compressor high side (output). The
bent tube in the center is the process tube where the system is pulled to
vacuum then charged with refrigerant. The tube on the left is the suction
line and pulls evaporated cold gas from the cold coils inside the
refrigerator.

Do a google search on refrigeration cycle for more details.

It should begin to heat up quickly (minutes or so) if the compressor is
running.

Thanks for the information as to what the three tubes are.

How is the annotation on this photo?
http://i.cubeupload.com/LQ7jqz.jpg

The LRA is 17.6 amps and with just two leads on the RUN and COMMON, it's
pulling 12 Amps.

I think I have to figure out whether there is a "restriction" in the flow
of the R134a fluid/gas.
Click to expand...

The drawing looks correct.

I don't think it is a restriction in the gas circuit. Leaving the unit sit
for a day would most likely let the pressures to equalize.

It might be a mechanical issue like a reed valve broken and jamming the
piston.
 
On 7/12/2016 10:59 AM, Danny D. wrote:
....
Is the inlet on the right and the outlet on the left in this picture?
http://i.cubeupload.com/9ZZ7fw.jpg
Click to expand...

I can't help you there. Tom?
...

I also doublechecked the resistance, which seems to show good numbers:
A. COMMON to START = about 5 ohms (hard to read the Rx100 scale)
B. COMMON to RUN = slightly less than 5 ohms
C. START to RUN = slightly less than 10 ohms

Given all that, I tentatively assume that the motor is working fine
electrically; but that mechanically, it seems to be locked up.
Click to expand...

That sounds right.

However, I would have expected 17.6 Amps if the motor were locked up, so,
I'm curious why I get 12 Amps instead - but maybe that's because it never
started?
Click to expand...

If the motor isn't starting, that is "locked rotor". That it's 12A &
not 17.6 is not particularly useful. 12A is still way more than running
current. That's 1440 watts & I'd guess the operating power to be 400W
(4A), maybe, probably less. 400W is about 1/3hp, which seems like a lot
for a fridge.

Bob
 
On 12 Jul 2016 18:02:12 GMT, Nobody Here wrote:

My guess is the overload / start relay on the side of the compressor. A
quick check is to remove it and listen to it while you shake it. If it
rattles, it is bad. These are around $45 from Sears, may be cheaper if
you prowl around ebay. You can get the part numbers from Sears.
It could also be the start / run capacitor... around $10 for the part.
But I would be more inclined to think the relay. That is what went out on
mine.
Click to expand...

I hooked 120 VAC to the COMMON (hot) and RUN (neutral) and then jumped,
with a screwdriver, the START (neutral) but that didn't start the
compressor.

I did the same thing, essentially, with the 12uF capacitor hooked in series
with the RUN, and it didn't start.
 
On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 15:46:59 -0400, tom wrote:

> https://www.google.com/search?q=hermetic+refrigeration+compressor+pictures&sa=X&biw=1024&bih=646&tbm=isch&imgil=F37BQOH_xZTzVM%253A%253Bdwoy9-wprqoGfM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.ref-wiki.com%25252Ftechnical-information%25252F145-compressors%25252F31773-hermetic-compressors.html&source=iu&pf=m&fir=F37BQOH_xZTzVM%253A%252Cdwoy9-wprqoGfM%252C_&usg=__v0Z_k8Dk-8wDwTgId9DwnpzWm20%3D&ved=0ahUKEwj0xb2l2O7NAhXJ2SYKHQFCApMQyjcIOQ&ei=-EiFV_TpFMmzmwGBhImYCQ#imgrc=F37BQOH_xZTzVM%3A

Wow. That thing is jam packed!
http://www.ref-wiki.com/img_article/compressor.jpg

It almost makes me want to cut it open and look to see what went wrong!
http://www.secop.com/fileadmin/user_data/images/compressor_knowledge/hermetic_compressors/secop_hermetic_compressor_glass_2.jpg

There seem like plenty of mechanical parts to go bad:
http://www.secop.com/fileadmin/user_data/images/compressor_knowledge/hermetic_compressors/secop_hermetic_compressor_glass_1.jpg

Thanks!
 
On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 15:54:44 -0400, tom wrote:

BTW, use the part number on the label of the compressor and do a google
search.

EM2Z80HLT Embraco is the manufacturer.

BTW-2 The LRC at 17.5 amps is at the higest rated line voltage of 127 volts.
That is why you are seeing a lower reading.
Click to expand...

Thanks for explaining why I'm only seeing 12 Amps when the compressor won't
start when the Locked Rotor Amperage (LRA) spec is 17.6 Amps.
http://i.cubeupload.com/34bCaq.jpg

I generally try to "diagnose" parts before giving up on them. It's just so
much easier (mentally) to replace stuff that I *know* for a fact is bad,
then to replace stuff that I "think" is bad.

I'm sure it is far easier, mentally, for the type of people who "throw
parts at the problem" to replace things that they haven't completely
tested.

BTW-3 If this were me, I would at least try a new capacitor. Also I would
pop open the relay and have a look see. Maybe the contacts are welded shut
and could be separated and cleaned.
Click to expand...

While the capacitor has been tested, I understand what you're saying, which
is to pay a bit less than $100 to replace the cap and starter, essentially
throwing parts at the problem. Or, similarly, I can pay a bit over $100 to
have a tech come out and tell me, for sure, what needs fixing.

Most of the time, when those are my options, I generally opt to buy the
tools for $100, where the tool either fixes the problem or the tool tells
me exactly what that problem is.

But, in this case, I don't think there is that $100 tool option, is there?
 
On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 13:34:29 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 wrote:

None of that really matters. You still have choice of either a new fridge
or A which is spend $150 to find out it's hosed, very likely followed by B,
which is to spend $500+ to fix it.
Click to expand...

You should never have written that, because my wife happened to ask me what
I was doing, and she looked at your post, and pointed at me, saying "See! I
*told* you we needed a new frig!"

:)
 
My guess is the overload / start relay on the side of the compressor. A
quick check is to remove it and listen to it while you shake it. If it
rattles, it is bad. These are around $45 from Sears, may be cheaper if
you prowl around ebay. You can get the part numbers from Sears.
It could also be the start / run capacitor... around $10 for the part.
But I would be more inclined to think the relay. That is what went out on
mine.

On Fri, 08 Jul 2016 23:22:01 +0000, Danny D. wrote:

Debugging advice requested.
I have never debugged a refrigerator in my life.
I never even looked at the back of one before.

2010 Sears Kenmore coldspot 106-59422801 refrigerator/freezer just
stopped working at the same time that a periodic "humming and then
clicking" noise started happening.

Inside temperature this morning was 59F degrees in the frig and 49F in
the freezer (outside temperature is about 70F).

Both dial settings are on cold (mid range) where they were always left.
There is no on/off switch that we know about.
Electricity is working (fan and lights are working).

Fan is blowing full time (dunno if it always did that).
http://i.cubeupload.com/dQOTKL.jpg

Coils are at room temperature and are dusty:
http://i.cubeupload.com/jgkVXv.jpg

Compressor may not be turning on (how can we tell)?
http://i.cubeupload.com/p2OiCZ.jpg

No reason to suspect icemaker water supply yet:
http://i.cubeupload.com/myOvgH.jpg

Top of compressor is hot to the touch but not so hot as to burn (but
pretty hot otherwise):
http://i.cubeupload.com/wAX37P.jpg

We hear a humming noise kick on every five minutes for about 10 or 20
seconds and then a click when it shuts off:
http://tinypic.com/r/e6abk7/9

The only things new are the humming noise, and the fact that the
refrigerator and freezer aren't working.

First aim is to figure out how this thing works.
I was expecting to see a "motor" for the black compressor "bulb" but
there is no motor I can see - but the top of the black compressor "bulb"
is hot to the touch - but the coils are not.

I think the solenoid at the compressor "bulb" is what is making the
noise. Any debugging advice?
Click to expand...

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
 
On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 16:04:12 -0400, tom wrote:

would connect Neutral to the Common and Line to the Run. Connect the Run
capacitor from Run to Start. Apply power and momentary short the capacitor.
See if that does anything.

You might give the can a few good wacks with a hammer in case it is just
something jammed in the pump.
Click to expand...

Googling for how to "unlock a compressor", I found mention of a "hard start
kit", which some people say is the same as a "3n1", but others say they're
different:
http://appliantology.org/topic/40875-3-1-start-kit-fire-danger-do-techs-use-them-regularly/

Calling local appliance stores, they say they're the same thing (but that
reference above says they're not the same thing).

The local appliance store has a Supco RC0410 "hard start kit" in stock:
http://www.azpartsmaster.com/Products/SUPCO-RC0410-Refrigerator-Compressor-Hard-Start-Kit__B95530.aspx

Amazon also sells these "RC0410 Hard Start Kits":
https://www.amazon.com/Supco-RCO410-OVERLOAD-CAPACITOR-Electronics/dp/B000LDB89S

Some people equate the 3n1 with the "hard start kit":
http://www.globalindustrial.com/p/hvac/compressors-line-filter-dryers/hard-start-kits/supco-3-n-1-hard-start-14-13-hp?infoParam.campaignId=T9F&gclid=CLzx5YuD780CFYlrfgod-QIJPg

My question:
Q: Is the hard start kit and the 3n1 the same thing or different?

Do you have experience with it kicking off a stuck compressor?
 
"Danny D." <dannydiamico@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:nm3gi7$7re$1@news.mixmin.net...
On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 09:29:43 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 wrote:

What mechanical part? Like I posted days ago. You said that you took
the cap to the parts store, they verified it was good. You have 120V
going to the start and run winding, it doesn't start. You now know it's
not something simple and cheap to fix. What more is
there to do? Either get a new fridge or be prepared to spend:

A - $150 for a tech to come out and tell you what you already know,
plus an estimate to fix it, and it will likley be just an estimate.

B - Following step A, are you prepared to spend $500+ to fix it?

That's all you need to figure out.

I think the compressor is electrically good, and I think the start cap is
electrically good and I think the relay/overload is electrically good.

In addition to a mechanically bad compressor, that still leaves either low
R34a or a blockage (neither of which is likely), although a compressor
mechanically going bad in just 6 years is also unlikely since they're
built
to last longer than that.

It would be fantastic if I could find a picture of what is inside the
hermetically sealed black box. It's amazingly difficult to find.
Click to expand...

https://www.google.com/search?q=hermetic+refrigeration+compressor+pictures&sa=X&biw=1024&bih=646&tbm=isch&imgil=F37BQOH_xZTzVM%253A%253Bdwoy9-wprqoGfM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.ref-wiki.com%25252Ftechnical-information%25252F145-compressors%25252F31773-hermetic-compressors.html&source=iu&pf=m&fir=F37BQOH_xZTzVM%253A%252Cdwoy9-wprqoGfM%252C_&usg=__v0Z_k8Dk-8wDwTgId9DwnpzWm20%3D&ved=0ahUKEwj0xb2l2O7NAhXJ2SYKHQFCApMQyjcIOQ&ei=-EiFV_TpFMmzmwGBhImYCQ#imgrc=F37BQOH_xZTzVM%3A
 
"Danny D." <dannydiamico@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:nm3gi7$7re$1@news.mixmin.net...
On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 09:29:43 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 wrote:

What mechanical part? Like I posted days ago. You said that you took
the cap to the parts store, they verified it was good. You have 120V
going to the start and run winding, it doesn't start. You now know it's
not something simple and cheap to fix. What more is
there to do? Either get a new fridge or be prepared to spend:

A - $150 for a tech to come out and tell you what you already know,
plus an estimate to fix it, and it will likley be just an estimate.

B - Following step A, are you prepared to spend $500+ to fix it?

That's all you need to figure out.

I think the compressor is electrically good, and I think the start cap is
electrically good and I think the relay/overload is electrically good.

In addition to a mechanically bad compressor, that still leaves either low
R34a or a blockage (neither of which is likely), although a compressor
mechanically going bad in just 6 years is also unlikely since they're
built
to last longer than that.

It would be fantastic if I could find a picture of what is inside the
hermetically sealed black box. It's amazingly difficult to find.
Click to expand...

BTW, use the part number on the label of the compressor and do a google
search.

EM2Z80HLT Embraco is the manufacturer.

BTW-2 The LRC at 17.5 amps is at the higest rated line voltage of 127 volts.
That is why you are seeing a lower reading.

BTW-3 If this were me, I would at least try a new capacitor. Also I would
pop open the relay and have a look see. Maybe the contacts are welded shut
and could be separated and cleaned.

BTW-4 Good luck.
 
"Danny D." <dannydiamico@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:nm3i1e$aas$1@news.mixmin.net...
On 12 Jul 2016 18:02:12 GMT, Nobody Here wrote:

My guess is the overload / start relay on the side of the compressor. A
quick check is to remove it and listen to it while you shake it. If it
rattles, it is bad. These are around $45 from Sears, may be cheaper if
you prowl around ebay. You can get the part numbers from Sears.
It could also be the start / run capacitor... around $10 for the part.
But I would be more inclined to think the relay. That is what went out
on
mine.

I hooked 120 VAC to the COMMON (hot) and RUN (neutral) and then jumped,
with a screwdriver, the START (neutral) but that didn't start the
compressor.

I did the same thing, essentially, with the 12uF capacitor hooked in
series
with the RUN, and it didn't start.
Click to expand...

I would connect Neutral to the Common and Line to the Run. Connect the Run
capacitor from Run to Start. Apply power and momentary short the capacitor.
See if that does anything.

You might give the can a few good wacks with a hammer in case it is just
something jammed in the pump.

Do you know anyone that does automotive AC work? They would have most of
what is needed to change out the compressor sans a good torch and sil-fos
brazing rod.

Or wait for a good appliance sale.
 
On 7/12/2016 3:54 PM, tom wrote:
....

BTW-3 If this were me, I would at least try a new capacitor. Also I would
pop open the relay and have a look see. Maybe the contacts are welded shut
and could be separated and cleaned.
....
Click to expand...

I agree about the cap. The parts guy test could have been it's not
shorted & it's not open. That leaves a bad value. E.g., a too small
capacitance that doesn't provide enough start current. But I guess that
you could test that by measuring the current through the start winding,
using your test rig with cap.

The relay is pretty much eliminated as the problem through using your
test rig.
 
"Danny D." <dannydiamico@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:nm3jg9$d0q$1@news.mixmin.net...
On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 15:54:44 -0400, tom wrote:

BTW, use the part number on the label of the compressor and do a google
search.

EM2Z80HLT Embraco is the manufacturer.

BTW-2 The LRC at 17.5 amps is at the higest rated line voltage of 127
volts.
That is why you are seeing a lower reading.

Thanks for explaining why I'm only seeing 12 Amps when the compressor
won't
start when the Locked Rotor Amperage (LRA) spec is 17.6 Amps.
http://i.cubeupload.com/34bCaq.jpg

I generally try to "diagnose" parts before giving up on them. It's just so
much easier (mentally) to replace stuff that I *know* for a fact is bad,
then to replace stuff that I "think" is bad.

I'm sure it is far easier, mentally, for the type of people who "throw
parts at the problem" to replace things that they haven't completely
tested.

BTW-3 If this were me, I would at least try a new capacitor. Also I would
pop open the relay and have a look see. Maybe the contacts are welded
shut
and could be separated and cleaned.

While the capacitor has been tested, I understand what you're saying,
which
is to pay a bit less than $100 to replace the cap and starter, essentially
throwing parts at the problem. Or, similarly, I can pay a bit over $100 to
have a tech come out and tell me, for sure, what needs fixing.

Most of the time, when those are my options, I generally opt to buy the
tools for $100, where the tool either fixes the problem or the tool tells
me exactly what that problem is.

But, in this case, I don't think there is that $100 tool option, is there?
Click to expand...

Apart from this problem, a good Fluke DMM would be on my immediate acquire
list. And never loan it out if you want to be able to trust it.

There are "hard start" compressor starters available that might be worth
looking at.

Can you take some more pictures of the start relay? From different angles?
 
Danny D. wrote:


While the capacitor has been tested, I understand what you're saying,
which is to pay a bit less than $100 to replace the cap and starter,
essentially throwing parts at the problem.
Click to expand...

You should be able to get a replacement start cap for MUCH less than $100,
and just bypass the starting relay. You will hear instantly if the
compressor starts. If it does, the compressor is OK, and the only piece
left is the relay. Some time ago I got a run cap from a refrigeration
supply for $6. I expected it to be more.

And, if the compressor does not start with the new cap and the relay
bypassed, then you can be fairly sure the compressor cannot be salvaged.

Jon
 
On 7/12/2016 3:22 PM, Danny D. wrote:
On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 11:36:19 -0400, tom wrote:

The drawing looks correct.

I don't think it is a restriction in the gas circuit. Leaving the unit sit
for a day would most likely let the pressures to equalize.

It might be a mechanical issue like a reed valve broken and jamming the
piston.

I don't know any other way to test for "mechanical" operation of the
compressor.
Click to expand...

Pump out all the refrigerant.
Saw the top off the compressor.
After the inspection, weld the compressor using a gas tight "bead" of weld.
Replace the refrigerant.

No problem for you, right?

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..
 
On 7/12/2016 5:26 PM, tom wrote:
There are "hard start" compressor starters available that might be worth
looking at.
Click to expand...

Don't bother. I suggested that a week ago,
and Danny totally ignored me. And ignored
my hints and reminders.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..
 
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