Debug advice Kenmore coldspot 106-59422801 stopped refrigera

[Danny D.]

On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 18:33:27 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Pump out all the refrigerant.
Saw the top off the compressor.
After the inspection, weld the compressor using a gas tight "bead" of weld.
Replace the refrigerant.

No problem for you, right?

 

[Danny D.]

On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 18:35:48 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Don't bother. I suggested that a week ago,
and Danny totally ignored me. And ignored
my hints and reminders.

You mean this?
http://i.cubeupload.com/VD0haS.jp

 

[Danny D.]

On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 19:08:52 -0400, Bob Engelhardt wrote:

Actually, I don't think that you did. You probably meant to, but were
too pissed from his ignoring you.

I was wondering what his suggestion had been.
He kept saying I was ignoring him, but I never saw (or remember seeing) his
suggestion. Maybe it's there. Probably is.

Anyway, as a Hail Mary play, I tried the Supco RC0410 1/4-to-1/3 HP 120VAC
"3n1 Start" Solid State Relay Overload Start Capacitor Combination (6.8A
Maximum Continuous Amps):
http://i.cubeupload.com/VD0haS.jpg

2. It easily hooked up to the refrigerator, and, in fact, was far easier
than making the test jig (so, in hindsight, forget the test jig - just hook
up one of these 3n1 Start combos):
http://i.cubeupload.com/ja5XaK.jpg

Good news and bad news.

A. The first time I connected it, the compressor RAN!
B. The second time I connected it, the compressor kicked off after 20
seconds (and the power cord got hot).

When it was running, the Ammeter read 1.5Amps!
http://i.cubeupload.com/8YQ1wK.jpg

I let it run for about two minutes, and I could feel the output (thin)
discharge tubing getting hot to the touch. The input tubing didn't get a
chance to change temperature.

I told the wife it worked, so I unplugged it to show her that it starts up,
and guess what?

The second time I plugged it in, the overload kicked in after 20 seconds,
and the cord got noticably hot.

If I was confused before - I'm doubly confused now.

I'm gonna let it cool down a bit,

 

[Danny D.]

On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 21:53:52 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Think I remember at least one reminder. Well,
moot point. He's gone so far afield on so many
directions, there's no contacting him, now.

I think I tried *every* suggestion ever made in this thread.

Here's yours, but I don't remember it being suggested until today.
http://i.cubeupload.com/ja5XaK.jpg

 

[Danny D.]

On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 17:23:25 -0500, Jon Elson wrote:

You should be able to get a replacement start cap for MUCH less than $100,
and just bypass the starting relay.

Funny thing is that the Sears country-wide prices are *far* (far!) lower
than the prices at the local appliance shops here in the Silicon Valley!
http://i.cubeupload.com/5z2J05.gif

The run cap is $17.39 in that Sears USA parts diagram, but at the local San
Jose parts stores, it was between $45 and $65 for those who had it in
stock.

Interestingly, the relay is $45.17 in that Sears US diagram, and it was
about $60 to $75 at the local parts stores that had it in stock.

Meanwhile, the Supco RC0410 1/4-to-1/3 HP 120VAC "3n1 Start" Solid State
Relay Overload Start Capacitor Combination should be around $10, but I paid
$29.50 for it at the local Appliance Parts Store.
http://i.cubeupload.com/VD0haS.jp

You will hear instantly if the compressor starts.
If it does, the compressor is OK, and the only piece left is the relay.

What do you make of this?
a. The first time I plugged in the RC0410, the compressor started!
b. After about two minutes, I wanted to show teh wife, and, in her
presence, the second time I plugged it in, it overheated and turned off.
http://i.cubeupload.com/ja5XaK.jpg

Some time ago I got a run cap from a refrigeration
supply for $6. I expected it to be more.

Heh heh. It "is" more. In San Jose at least. I paid $29.50 for it today.

And, if the compressor does not start with the new cap and the relay
bypassed, then you can be fairly sure the compressor cannot be salvaged.

Ah, but what if the compressor starts the first time, and then fails to
start the second time?

I'll try to get a video of this - but I am waiting for it to cool down (and
for the wife to go to bed so she doesn't influence the test results).
http://i.cubeupload.com/8YQ1wK.jpg

 

[Bob Engelhardt]

On 7/12/2016 6:35 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Don't bother. I suggested that a week ago,
and Danny totally ignored me. And ignored
my hints and reminders.

Actually, I don't think that you did. You probably meant to, but were
too pissed from his ignoring you.

 

[Danny D.]

On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 20:20:15 -0400, tom wrote:

The 3 n' 1 Start Relay adds new life to old refrigerators and freezers by
providing an additional boost to the compressor. 1/4 and 1/3 Horsepower
a.. 115-230VAC
So it looks like they are the same.

I asked two Appliance Parts Stores, and they agree that they're one and teh
same, so, the guy who said that they're not in that thread must be wrong:
http://i.cubeupload.com/VD0haS.jpg

And no, never used one. Stuck compressors are very rare. Most of the time
the windings overheat and short. The arcing produces acids that ruin the
compressor.

It worked the first time!
Then it failed the second time.
http://i.cubeupload.com/ja5XaK.jpg

I'm more confused now than ever, but I will try again after it cools down.

But for $16 why not give it a try?

Can you take some more pictures of the start relay? Can you open the start
relay for inspection? It looks like it just snaps together.

Actually, it was $29.50 here in San Jose:
http://i.cubeupload.com/8YQ1wK.jpg

 

[Danny D.]

On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 23:08:07 -0400, Bob Engelhardt wrote:

Refrigerators and AC's need to rest before being restarted. I think
that the pressures in the system have to equalize, so that the
compressor is not trying to start against too large a "head".

Normally this happens because when the thermostat turns it off, it's a
while before the thermostat tells it to turn on again.

Thanks for answering so quickly, as I had egg all over my face after
telling the wife that I was a veritable genius and that I fixed it for less
than thirty bucks!

I'll let it cool down, and plug it back in, with the ammeter connected, and
check the current. If it starts, I'll leave it running for a few hours!

I must admit - the information is conflicting - so I'm confused.
Very confused.

a. The old equipment tested good (as far as I could tell)
b. The jumper rig should have bypassed the relay (but not the OEM cap)
c. All this 3n1 "hard-start kit" did was replace those two things

Maybe it's a "bigger" capacitor?
http://i.cubeupload.com/8YQ1wK.jp

There's no mention on the package of how big the cap is, but physically,
the combination unit is far beefier than the OEM unit. So I dunno...
http://i.cubeupload.com/VD0haS.jpg

Do you think it could be as simple as the compressor just needed a
"beefier" cap?

Why would it need a beefier cap?

 

[Danny D.]

On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 22:53:09 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

I added a g to the end of the URL, and got
a picture. I can't comment on that, until
you answer my question.

Ooops. Mea culpa. Sorry about that missing "g".

It should have been:
http://i.cubeupload.com/VD0haS.jpg

Ummmmm... what question?

But I have a question for you.
How do you respond so quickly?

I have to sit down at the computer to even see a message, so, I don't see
them in real time. Do you have something that goes to your phone?

 

[tom]

"Danny D." <dannydiamico@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:nm3soq$tsv$1@news.mixmin.net...

On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 16:04:12 -0400, tom wrote:

would connect Neutral to the Common and Line to the Run. Connect the Run
capacitor from Run to Start. Apply power and momentary short the
capacitor.
See if that does anything.

You might give the can a few good wacks with a hammer in case it is just
something jammed in the pump.

Googling for how to "unlock a compressor", I found mention of a "hard
start
kit", which some people say is the same as a "3n1", but others say they're
different:
http://appliantology.org/topic/40875-3-1-start-kit-fire-danger-do-techs-use-them-regularly/

Calling local appliance stores, they say they're the same thing (but that
reference above says they're not the same thing).

The local appliance store has a Supco RC0410 "hard start kit" in stock:
http://www.azpartsmaster.com/Products/SUPCO-RC0410-Refrigerator-Compressor-Hard-Start-Kit__B95530.aspx

Amazon also sells these "RC0410 Hard Start Kits":
https://www.amazon.com/Supco-RCO410-OVERLOAD-CAPACITOR-Electronics/dp/B000LDB89S

Some people equate the 3n1 with the "hard start kit":
http://www.globalindustrial.com/p/hvac/compressors-line-filter-dryers/hard-start-kits/supco-3-n-1-hard-start-14-13-hp?infoParam.campaignId=T9F&gclid=CLzx5YuD780CFYlrfgod-QIJPg

My question:
Q: Is the hard start kit and the 3n1 the same thing or different?

Do you have experience with it kicking off a stuck compressor?

From the ad:

The 3 n' 1 Start Relay adds new life to old refrigerators and freezers by
providing an additional boost to the compressor. 1/4 and 1/3 Horsepower
a.. 115-230VAC

So it looks like they are the same.

And no, never used one. Stuck compressors are very rare. Most of the time
the windings overheat and short. The arcing produces acids that ruin the
compressor.

But for $16 why not give it a try?

Can you take some more pictures of the start relay? Can you open the start
relay for inspection? It looks like it just snaps together.

 

[Danny D.]

On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 23:26:27 -0400, Bob Engelhardt wrote:

Also, IIRC, users' manuals for AC's say to wait 3 minutes before trying
to restart.

Good news, and odd news.

1. I let it cool down for 1/2 hour and then when I plugged the Supco RC0410
1/4-to-1/3 HP 120VAC "3n1 Start" Solid State Relay Overload Start Capacitor
Combination unit in to the mains, the compressor started again!

2. I left the connections to the motor where they were, which seemed to
match our assumption that the top was the COMMON, and the forward-facing
bottom was the START and the rearward facing bottom was the RUN/MARK
connection.
http://i.cubeupload.com/YMMqW4.jpg

3. You'll notice I am not using the original power cord, so I have the rest
of the frig (including condenser the fan) on its own power supply and the
Supco RC0410 hard-start cap on its own power cord.
http://i.cubeupload.com/yiOL3g.jpg

3. With the Ammeter on the 15Amp scale, when the compressor was running,
the current on the black COMMON lead was about 3 amps.
http://i.cubeupload.com/GLn0bK.jpg

4. To doublecheck, I checked the current on the input cord neutrals, which
was also 3 Amps (not surprisingly):
http://i.cubeupload.com/k7D1Th.jpg

5. When the compressor was starting, the current on the START lead jumped a
bit (maybe double the 3 amps?) and then instantly settled down to zero amps
(or very slightly above zero amps).
http://i.cubeupload.com/5vR3jy.jpg

6. Then the compressor ran for about 10 or 20 minutes, getting very hot to
the touch, where the output (thin) line was hot enough to burn my
fingertips and even the input (thick) copper line was warm to the touch
(and the refrigerator began to get noticeably cooler inside the doors).

7. After 10 or 15 or so minutes of running, the compressor began to hum
instead of work causing 11 amps to flow through the COMMON lead, and then
the relay clicked off (is that supposed to happen?).
http://i.cubeupload.com/9TNB1Q.jpg

8. Then the compressor turned back on, after about 10 minutes, and worked
for a much shorter period of time, before turning off again (maybe fewer
than five minutes).

Is it normal for a compressor to shut off after getting very hot after
working for only about 10 minutes?

Is it OK to have the frig temporarily on two power cords?
a. One for the fan and the rest of the frig
b. One just for the compressor

 

[Danny D.]

On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 23:38:32 -0400, tom wrote:

As others have said you must let it set for about 20 minutes for the
pressure between the high side and the suction side to equalize. Also, if
the kit uses a PTC starter, that also must cool down to room temperature.

Here's the sound of the compressor running with the hard-start capacitor
hooked up, sinking only about 3 amps through the COMMON terminal:
http://tinypic.com/r/2q3p26s/9

Here's the sound of the compressor turning off, after running for about 20
minutes or so, sinking about 11 amps through the COMMON terminal:
http://tinypic.com/r/fy1poz/9

 

[tom]

"Danny D." <dannydiamico@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:nm4bdd$ok9$1@news.mixmin.net...

On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 20:20:15 -0400, tom wrote:

The 3 n' 1 Start Relay adds new life to old refrigerators and freezers by
providing an additional boost to the compressor. 1/4 and 1/3 Horsepower
a.. 115-230VAC
So it looks like they are the same.

I asked two Appliance Parts Stores, and they agree that they're one and
teh
same, so, the guy who said that they're not in that thread must be wrong:
http://i.cubeupload.com/VD0haS.jpg

And no, never used one. Stuck compressors are very rare. Most of the time
the windings overheat and short. The arcing produces acids that ruin the
compressor.

It worked the first time!
Then it failed the second time.
http://i.cubeupload.com/ja5XaK.jpg

I'm more confused now than ever, but I will try again after it cools down.

But for $16 why not give it a try?

Can you take some more pictures of the start relay? Can you open the
start
relay for inspection? It looks like it just snaps together.

Actually, it was $29.50 here in San Jose:
http://i.cubeupload.com/8YQ1wK.jpg

As others have said you must let it set for about 20 minutes for the
pressure between the high side and the suction side to equalize. Also, if
the kit uses a PTC starter, that also must cool down to room temperature.

 

[tom]

"Danny D." <dannydiamico@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:nm4hm7$47b$1@news.mixmin.net...

On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 23:26:27 -0400, Bob Engelhardt wrote:

Also, IIRC, users' manuals for AC's say to wait 3 minutes before trying
to restart.

Good news, and odd news.

1. I let it cool down for 1/2 hour and then when I plugged the Supco
RC0410
1/4-to-1/3 HP 120VAC "3n1 Start" Solid State Relay Overload Start
Capacitor
Combination unit in to the mains, the compressor started again!

2. I left the connections to the motor where they were, which seemed to
match our assumption that the top was the COMMON, and the forward-facing
bottom was the START and the rearward facing bottom was the RUN/MARK
connection.
http://i.cubeupload.com/YMMqW4.jpg

3. You'll notice I am not using the original power cord, so I have the
rest
of the frig (including condenser the fan) on its own power supply and the
Supco RC0410 hard-start cap on its own power cord.
http://i.cubeupload.com/yiOL3g.jpg

3. With the Ammeter on the 15Amp scale, when the compressor was running,
the current on the black COMMON lead was about 3 amps.
http://i.cubeupload.com/GLn0bK.jpg

4. To doublecheck, I checked the current on the input cord neutrals, which
was also 3 Amps (not surprisingly):
http://i.cubeupload.com/k7D1Th.jpg

5. When the compressor was starting, the current on the START lead jumped
a
bit (maybe double the 3 amps?) and then instantly settled down to zero
amps
(or very slightly above zero amps).
http://i.cubeupload.com/5vR3jy.jpg

6. Then the compressor ran for about 10 or 20 minutes, getting very hot to
the touch, where the output (thin) line was hot enough to burn my
fingertips and even the input (thick) copper line was warm to the touch
(and the refrigerator began to get noticeably cooler inside the doors).

7. After 10 or 15 or so minutes of running, the compressor began to hum
instead of work causing 11 amps to flow through the COMMON lead, and then
the relay clicked off (is that supposed to happen?).
http://i.cubeupload.com/9TNB1Q.jpg

8. Then the compressor turned back on, after about 10 minutes, and worked
for a much shorter period of time, before turning off again (maybe fewer
than five minutes).

Is it normal for a compressor to shut off after getting very hot after
working for only about 10 minutes?

Is it OK to have the frig temporarily on two power cords?
a. One for the fan and the rest of the frig
b. One just for the compressor

Did you remove all the dust from the condenser coil?

 

[tom]

"Danny D." <dannydiamico@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:nm4imj$5ru$1@news.mixmin.net...

On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 23:38:32 -0400, tom wrote:

As others have said you must let it set for about 20 minutes for the
pressure between the high side and the suction side to equalize. Also, if
the kit uses a PTC starter, that also must cool down to room temperature.

Here's the sound of the compressor running with the hard-start capacitor
hooked up, sinking only about 3 amps through the COMMON terminal:
http://tinypic.com/r/2q3p26s/9

Here's the sound of the compressor turning off, after running for about 20
minutes or so, sinking about 11 amps through the COMMON terminal:
http://tinypic.com/r/fy1poz/9

The capacitor on that hard start kit may be too large and cause overheating.
Why don't you go ahead and get the correct part specified for the unit you
have?

For the last time, did you clean the dust off the condenser coil? That's
important.

 

[Danny D.]

On Wed, 13 Jul 2016 01:51:55 -0400, tom wrote:

The capacitor on that hard start kit may be too large and cause overheating.
Why don't you go ahead and get the correct part specified for the unit you
have?

For the last time, did you clean the dust off the condenser coil? That's
important.

Given that the compressor is clearly working (at least for a short period
of time), it seems that I have to go back and figure out what's bad.

Seems to make sense to replace the cap, even though 3 tests showed it to be
good.

I was throwing away the frig as of this morning, so, there was no need to
clean the condenser coil. I guess I'll clean it now - although do you
really thing *that* is what is making the compressor cycle?

 

[Stormin Mormon]

On 7/9/2016 4:49 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

On 7/9/2016 2:20 PM, Mr Pounder Esquire wrote:
Stormin Mormon wrote:
If it's out of warranty, [*are you any good with
electrical repairs*]? Please write back, and we'll
continue the discussion.


Since you missed the question the first time.

Classic signs of fucked compressor.



Says you. I've worked on more than a few of
these, and the compressor was fine.

Not that Danny reads my posts, you see.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

 

[Stormin Mormon]

On 7/12/2016 11:21 PM, Danny D. wrote:

On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 22:53:09 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

I added a g to the end of the URL, and got
a picture. I can't comment on that, until
you answer my question.

Ooops. Mea culpa. Sorry about that missing "g".

It should have been:
http://i.cubeupload.com/VD0haS.jpg

Ummmmm... what question?

But I have a question for you.
How do you respond so quickly?

I have to sit down at the computer to even see a message, so, I don't see
them in real time. Do you have something that goes to your phone?

Coincidence. I'm on the east coast, and
spend a bit of time on the computer in
the evenings.

What question? I only asked twice.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

 

[Stormin Mormon]

On 7/12/2016 10:57 PM, Danny D. wrote:

On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 21:53:52 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Think I remember at least one reminder. Well,
moot point. He's gone so far afield on so many
directions, there's no contacting him, now.

I think I tried *every* suggestion ever made in this thread.

Here's yours, but I don't remember it being suggested until today.
http://i.cubeupload.com/ja5XaK.jpg

You never answered my question, and I never
made any suggestions what to do. Other than
suggesting you answer my question so we can
move on.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

 

[Bob Engelhardt]

On 7/12/2016 11:08 PM, Bob Engelhardt wrote:

Refrigerators and AC's need to rest before being restarted. I think
that the pressures in the system have to equalize, so that the
compressor is not trying to start against too large a "head".

Normally this happens because when the thermostat turns it off, it's a
while before the thermostat tells it to turn on again.

Also, IIRC, users' manuals for AC's say to wait 3 minutes before trying
to restart.