Debug advice Kenmore coldspot 106-59422801 stopped refrigera

[James Wilkinson]

On Sat, 09 Jul 2016 21:49:13 +0100, Stormin Mormon <cayoung61@hotmail.com> wrote:

On 7/9/2016 2:20 PM, Mr Pounder Esquire wrote:
Stormin Mormon wrote:
If it's out of warranty, [*are you any good with
electrical repairs*]? Please write back, and we'll
continue the discussion.

Since you missed the question the first time.

Classic signs of fucked compressor.

Says you. I've worked on more than a few of
these, and the compressor was fine.

You doubt the opinion of someone who spent his life hanging fire extinguishers on walls?

--
If breasts had no nipples, they'd be pointless.

 

[Oren]

On Sat, 9 Jul 2016 16:49:03 -0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
<dannydiamico@yahoo.com> wrote:

>PS: Is polygamy still allowed?

Channel surf, find the show "Sister Wives".

Las Vegas court cases... yep
--
.... if I had the perfect woman, I'd want twins -- Blackberry Smoke

 

On Sat, 9 Jul 2016 00:49:13 -0000 (UTC), "Danny D. "
<dannydiamico@yahoo.com> wrote:

On Fri, 8 Jul 2016 19:47:38 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Sounds just exactly like a bad start relay
on the compressor. This is considered "sealed
system". If you have the owners manual, see
how long is the sealed system warranty. Probably
five years, so you're out of warranty.

If it's out of warranty, are you any good with
electrical repairs? Please write back, and we'll
continue the discussion.

Thanks for the advice.
The last thing I fixed with your help was the washing machine, who had an
F28/F11 which meant the motor control board was fried.

Before that, it was a non-operational furnace (bad thermistor), and before
that there were a host of things, most of which are working just fine now.

I have the frig unplugged to cool the black compressor "sealed system" down
(right now the black top of the "sealed system" is warm to the touch but
not hot).

A few questions of what I should expect, since I'm not sure that I
understand how the thing works yet.

Of course, I know that decompressing fluid freon (or whatever it uses) to a
gas makes the freon cold which makes the pipes that run through the
refrigerator cold, and then recompressing that recirculating gas back to a
liquid creates heat which is blown off by the fan - but I don't know the
mechanics of what I should expect (e.g., what pumps the fluid/gas through
the system? Gravity?).

So I have questions if I may ask...

0. Are there 3 things inside the "sealed unit"?
a. Motor
b. Compressor
c. Solenoid

1. Is the sealed unit a replaceable part?
http://i.cubeupload.com/wAX37P.jpg (same pic as before)

2. Why would the top of the black sealed unit be hot to the touch?

3. Is there a motor overheat safety switch that may have tripped?

4. Are those black coils in the bottom supposed to be warm or cold?
http://i.cubeupload.com/jgkVXv.jpg (same pic as before)

5. I don't see motion, but the vibrating can be felt on the solenoid on the
OUTSIDE of the sealed unit (it may be translating from inside though). What
is the purpose of that solenoid on the outside of the sealed unit?
http://i.cubeupload.com/p2OiCZ.jpg (same pic as before)

In an hour or so, when the "sealed unit" has cooled down, I'll plug it back
in and report back.

The sealed unit contains at least a motor and compressor. I dunno
about a solenoid. It gets hot when the motor can't start because
instead of the electrical energy being converted into mechanical
energy which is then distributed throughout the fridge system it is
converted directly into heat. The reason you can't replace the sealed
unit is because it is connected to the system that circulates the
refrigerant and cutting the copper tubes will let out the refrigerant
and lube oil and let in air. So be careful when working around the
copper tubes. If they are bent enough to constrict the flow the fridge
won't work properly and if one breaks the only thing you can do is
either get someone with the proper equipment to fix it or buy another
fridge.
Eric

 

[Danny D.]

On Sat, 09 Jul 2016 20:00:22 -0400, Bob Engelhardt wrote:

There's something missing here & that is the cap. As I understand it,
the cap is wired in series with the start winding in order to phase
shift its current and get the motor started in the right direction.
Without the cap, I don't think that the motor will start.

You're right.
http://i.cubeupload.com/fXXnOi.jpg

By gathering clues, I figured out which is the neutral on the compressor
and which was the always powered pin, and which was the sometimes powered
pin.

Then I created a test jig and hooked it up, without a capacitor.
When I powered it up, the compressor still didn't run.

http://i.cubeupload.com/fXXnOi.jpg

 

[whit3rd]

On Friday, July 8, 2016 at 5:51:49 PM UTC-7, Bob Engelhardt wrote:

Also - the 10 or 20 seconds of humming that you hear is the motor TRYING
to start. It can't without the cap & that that why the "bulb" is hot.

It isn't always a capacitor; 'relay' and 'NTC resistor' are other start components
that one might encounter.

 

[Stormin Mormon]

On 7/9/2016 6:50 PM, Danny D. wrote:

On Sat, 09 Jul 2016 12:57:59 -0400, Bob Engelhardt wrote:

Yep - this video is telling the same story as the first one: the motor
tries to start & the overload clicks open when it overheats from the
excessive current. (It's probably a bimetal leaf.)


The guy at the parts store showed me a type of relay that has a
semiconductor disc inside which shatters, and when you shake the relay, if
it's broken, it rattles.

The one he had on the counter rattled, but he said mine isn't that kind
(probably a bimetallic strip as you said).

He really talked me out of buying both parts. They were each about 50
bucks, and he said I'd just be unhappy. So he sent me home to do some more
diagnostics with a test cable, which I'm gonna make now.

Danny, are my posts making it through your server?

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

 

[Stormin Mormon]

On 7/9/2016 6:48 PM, Danny D. wrote:

On Sat, 09 Jul 2016 10:20:40 -0700, Oren wrote:

My memory fails. Awhile back there was a link or video about the
sequence of how you test the pins. No clue if it is accurate or
correct.

Blank stare:

1) Bottom two pins

2) Bottom right and top

3) Top and Bottom left
--

Went to a great appliance store in San Jose where the guy behind the
counter tested the cap and said it was good.

He said the compressor not working could be three things:
1. Bad compressor
2. Bad relay
3. Restriction in the freon lines

He strongly suggested I not buy his relay from him before testing it, and
he explained how the relay works (the white part is the thermal switch by
the way).

He said to plug in the power to the relay (two spades) and check that the
backside of the relay (3 pins) has power to common.

To do this, he told me to create a test jig where I can put 120 volts to
the Start and Main/Run pins of the compressor, with the neutral on the
common pin, and then pull off the start once the compressor starts.

He said if the compressor doesn't start - then that's it for the frig.

So I went home empty handed and then picked up some alligator clips,
spades, and butt connectors and am slapping together a test jig as we type.
The wife and sister were very unhappy that I came home, essentially, empty
handed. But the guy was right that I didn't do enough diagnostics.

The test jig will have two spades on the incoming end, which will plug into
the existing power cable (hot and neutral), and then it will have three
outputs which will be tube-connectors (two hots and one neutral).

The procedure will be:
1. Unplug power
2. Hook two male spades to female spades in power cord
3. Hook a butt plug to Start (hot) and to Run/Main (hot) and to neutral
4. Plug it in
5. Yank off the start wire as soon as the compressor starts

If the compressor starts, then it's good.
If not ...

Danny, are my posts making it to you,
through your server? You've not answered
my question. And you're going through a
lot of bother which isn't really needed.

But, did you ever do any thing simple?

I leave you to your complications.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

 

[Bob Engelhardt]

On 7/9/2016 6:48 PM, Danny D. wrote:
....

The test jig will have two spades on the incoming end, which will plug into
the existing power cable (hot and neutral), and then it will have three
outputs which will be tube-connectors (two hots and one neutral).

The procedure will be:
1. Unplug power
2. Hook two male spades to female spades in power cord
3. Hook a butt plug to Start (hot) and to Run/Main (hot) and to neutral
4. Plug it in
5. Yank off the start wire as soon as the compressor starts

If the compressor starts, then it's good.
If not ...

There's something missing here & that is the cap. As I understand it,
the cap is wired in series with the start winding in order to phase
shift its current and get the motor started in the right direction.
Without the cap, I don't think that the motor will start.

Bob

 

[Danny D.]

On Sat, 09 Jul 2016 20:23:14 -0400, Bob Engelhardt wrote:

Also, now knowing what the output terminals of the relay are, one can
diagnose it directly. Its circuit follows:

--||-- cap
| |
v v
v v
| |
120 <----OVERLOAD----.---RELAY---| |-----< Start
|
|-----------------------< Run

Neu <----------------------------------------< neutral

The relay & cap could be in reversed order.

If you jumper the cap terminals, there should be zero resistance between
the 120 input and the Start output. If you can't tell which input is
120 & which is neutral, try them both.

Bob

Thank you Bob for suggesting jumping the capacitor terminals to short them
out, as that gave me some additional connectivity diagnostic information
when I checked continuity:
http://i.cubeupload.com/3tJTV7.jpg

The relay has only two wires going into it, and three holes coming out.
http://i.cubeupload.com/HBepTj.jpg

Disconnected from power, and with the capacitor terminals shorted:
a. Red power input terminal went directly to the relay top output pin
b. White neutral input terminal went directly to *both* lower output pins
http://i.cubeupload.com/I3t2HZ.jpg

If I remove the short between the capacitor pins, it changes to:
a. Red power input still went directly to the relay top output pin
b. White neutral input still went directly to the rearward lower output pin
c. White neutral input no longer innervates the forward lower output pin
http://i.cubeupload.com/JwcELQ.jpg

Unfortunately, it appears that the relay & cap are working.
Do you interpret this the same as I do?

 

[Bob Engelhardt]

On 7/9/2016 8:00 PM, Bob Engelhardt wrote:

On 7/9/2016 6:48 PM, Danny D. wrote:
...
The test jig will have two spades on the incoming end, which will plug
into
the existing power cable (hot and neutral), and then it will have three
outputs which will be tube-connectors (two hots and one neutral).

The procedure will be:
1. Unplug power
2. Hook two male spades to female spades in power cord
3. Hook a butt plug to Start (hot) and to Run/Main (hot) and to neutral
4. Plug it in
5. Yank off the start wire as soon as the compressor starts

If the compressor starts, then it's good.
If not ...


There's something missing here & that is the cap. As I understand it,
the cap is wired in series with the start winding in order to phase
shift its current and get the motor started in the right direction.
Without the cap, I don't think that the motor will start.

Bob

Also, now knowing what the output terminals of the relay are, one can
diagnose it directly. Its circuit follows:

--||-- cap
| |
v v
v v
| |
120 <----OVERLOAD----.---RELAY---| |-----< Start
|
|-----------------------< Run

Neu <----------------------------------------< neutral

The relay & cap could be in reversed order.

If you jumper the cap terminals, there should be zero resistance between
the 120 input and the Start output. If you can't tell which input is
120 & which is neutral, try them both.

Bob

 

[Danny D.]

On Sat, 09 Jul 2016 22:31:42 -0400, Bob Engelhardt wrote:

Can you modify your test jig to include the cap?
Wire it in series in the start wire.

I will make any jumper cable we need to debug this darn thing.

Since it appears (to me anyway) that both the cap and the relay are
working, that leaves mainly the compressor to test (which is critical).

If my prior tests of the relay were accurate, they seem to indicate a
working relay, since there is 120VAC across the two lower terminals to the
upper power terminal.

I wish the motor had a marking for the Start terminal versus the Mark/Run
terminal and common, but there is nothing marked I can decipher.
A. POWER TERMINAL
B. RUN TERMINAL (aka MARK terminal)
C. START TERMINAL

So these are just my guesses for the three terminals:
http://i.cubeupload.com/nsw1mt.jpg

Given that, is this your suggestion for wiring the cap in series:

1. From the power cord (red) hot wire to the top POWER terminal of the
compressor.

2. From the power cord (white) neutral wire split into two wires:

2a. From the power cord (white) neutral to the MARK/RUN rearward lower pin
on the compressor.
2b. From the power cord (white) neutral to the cap in series and from the
cap to the START forward lower pin on the compressor.

Is that what you are suggesting I test?

 

[Bob Engelhardt]

On 7/9/2016 10:17 PM, Danny D. wrote:

On Sat, 09 Jul 2016 20:00:22 -0400, Bob Engelhardt wrote:

There's something missing here & that is the cap. As I understand it,
the cap is wired in series with the start winding in order to phase
shift its current and get the motor started in the right direction.
Without the cap, I don't think that the motor will start.

You're right.
http://i.cubeupload.com/fXXnOi.jpg

By gathering clues, I figured out which is the neutral on the compressor
and which was the always powered pin, and which was the sometimes powered
pin.

Then I created a test jig and hooked it up, without a capacitor.
When I powered it up, the compressor still didn't run.

http://i.cubeupload.com/fXXnOi.jpg

Can you modify your test jig to include the cap? Wire it in series in
the start wire.

 

[Bob Engelhardt]

On 7/10/2016 12:04 AM, Danny D. wrote:

On Sat, 09 Jul 2016 20:23:14 -0400, Bob Engelhardt wrote:

Also, now knowing what the output terminals of the relay are, one can
diagnose it directly. Its circuit follows:

--||-- cap
| |
v v
v v
| |
120 <----OVERLOAD----.---RELAY---| |-----< Start
|
|-----------------------< Run

Neu <----------------------------------------< neutral

The relay & cap could be in reversed order.

If you jumper the cap terminals, there should be zero resistance between
the 120 input and the Start output. If you can't tell which input is
120 & which is neutral, try them both.

Bob

Thank you Bob for suggesting jumping the capacitor terminals to short them
out, as that gave me some additional connectivity diagnostic information
when I checked continuity:
http://i.cubeupload.com/3tJTV7.jpg

The relay has only two wires going into it, and three holes coming out.
http://i.cubeupload.com/HBepTj.jpg

Disconnected from power, and with the capacitor terminals shorted:
a. Red power input terminal went directly to the relay top output pin
b. White neutral input terminal went directly to *both* lower output pins
http://i.cubeupload.com/I3t2HZ.jpg

If I remove the short between the capacitor pins, it changes to:
a. Red power input still went directly to the relay top output pin
b. White neutral input still went directly to the rearward lower output pin
c. White neutral input no longer innervates the forward lower output pin
http://i.cubeupload.com/JwcELQ.jpg

Unfortunately, it appears that the relay & cap are working.
Do you interpret this the same as I do?

Yes, I think that's right.

Except that it's standard to switch the "hot" line, not the neutral.
Are you sure that the white input wires are neutral? White is the usual
color for neutral, but inside an appliance they could do otherwise.

 

[Bob Engelhardt]

On 7/10/2016 12:26 AM, Danny D. wrote:

On Sat, 09 Jul 2016 22:31:42 -0400, Bob Engelhardt wrote:

Can you modify your test jig to include the cap?
Wire it in series in the start wire.

I will make any jumper cable we need to debug this darn thing.

Since it appears (to me anyway) that both the cap and the relay are
working, that leaves mainly the compressor to test (which is critical).

If my prior tests of the relay were accurate, they seem to indicate a
working relay, since there is 120VAC across the two lower terminals to the
upper power terminal.

I wish the motor had a marking for the Start terminal versus the Mark/Run
terminal and common, but there is nothing marked I can decipher.
A. POWER TERMINAL
B. RUN TERMINAL (aka MARK terminal)
C. START TERMINAL

So these are just my guesses for the three terminals:
http://i.cubeupload.com/nsw1mt.jpg

I agree

Given that, is this your suggestion for wiring the cap in series:

1. From the power cord (red) hot wire to the top POWER terminal of the
compressor.

2. From the power cord (white) neutral wire split into two wires:

2a. From the power cord (white) neutral to the MARK/RUN rearward lower pin
on the compressor.
2b. From the power cord (white) neutral to the cap in series and from the
cap to the START forward lower pin on the compressor.

Is that what you are suggesting I test?

Yes. And as the parts guy advised, as soon as the motor starts,
disconnect the START pin.

 

[Oren]

On Sat, 9 Jul 2016 22:48:07 -0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
<dannydiamico@yahoo.com> wrote:

The wife and sister were very unhappy that I came home, essentially, empty
handed. But the guy was right that I didn't do enough diagnostics.

Send the wimmin folk to buy dry ice. Don't come back empty handed.

 

[Bob Engelhardt]

On 7/10/2016 1:48 PM, Bob Engelhardt wrote:

On 7/10/2016 12:26 AM, Danny D. wrote:
....
Given that, is this your suggestion for wiring the cap in series:

1. From the power cord (red) hot wire to the top POWER terminal of the
compressor.

2. From the power cord (white) neutral wire split into two wires:

2a. From the power cord (white) neutral to the MARK/RUN rearward lower
pin
on the compressor.
2b. From the power cord (white) neutral to the cap in series and from the
cap to the START forward lower pin on the compressor.

Is that what you are suggesting I test?

Yes. And as the parts guy advised, as soon as the motor starts,
disconnect the START pin.

WE "got's to know": did you try it & what happened?

 

[Danny D.]

On Mon, 11 Jul 2016 11:11:31 -0400, Bob Engelhardt wrote:

> WE "got's to know": did you try it & what happened?

I apologize for missing yesterday.
I had a family engagement.
All the salmon is gone by now, so I have more time anyway.

What do you make of these results?

Given:
1. Relay continuity http://i.cubeupload.com/EpNXUi.jpg

2. Relay power: http://i.cubeupload.com/AIlj4p.jpg

3. I guess that these are the motor terminals:
http://i.cubeupload.com/23ew1U.jpg

4. Here is the suggested test jig with the cap in series with the terminal
that I "think" is the START terminal:
http://i.cubeupload.com/WrCzv4.jpg

5. I accidentally hooked it up backward the first time, with the HOT wire
splitting into two, one of which went through the capacitor and then to
what I think is the compressor START terminal - and the other hot went to
what I think is the compressor RUN terminal.
http://i.cubeupload.com/UJcLZD.jpg

6. Then I labeled the wires, and hooked it up the opposite way - with the
HOT wire going only to what I think is the compressor topward COMMON
terminal. One neutral wire went to the capacitor and then to what I think
is the compressor bottom-forward-facing START terminal and the other
neutral went to what I think is the compressor bottom-rearward facing RUN
terminal.
http://i.cubeupload.com/ryMq7y.jpg

In both tests, the motor just hummed but did not appear to start.
When I pulled what I think is the start wire neutral off, the hum didn't
change.

What do you make of this?
What are my options?
(PS: Money is tight).

 

[Danny D.]

On Mon, 11 Jul 2016 15:02:16 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster wrote:

> A 12uf 5,000 volt capacitor charged up could hurt you. ^_^

The markings on this cap are:
http://i.cubeupload.com/QBVskg.jpg
1. 12uF
2. 180VAC (it was charged to 120VAC)
3. 10,000AFC (I presume this is cycles?)
4. 50/60Hz

Can that 120VAC 12uF zap kill me?
Is it safe (to the cap) to short the terminals?

 

[Danny D.]

On Fri, 8 Jul 2016 23:22:01 -0000 (UTC), Danny D. wrote:
Here is a summary, from top to bottom of where it's at.

SUMMARY:
I don't know if I tested it correctly, nor if I identified the circuit
correctly, but if I both identified and tested the circuit correctly, then
the compressor motor is bad.

However, maybe I made a mistake?

DETAILS:
0. Bought in 2010, the wife's Sears Kenmore coldspot 106-59422801
refrigerator/freezer just stopped working at the same time that a periodic
"humming and then clicking" noise started happening.

1. Here is the parts diagram (I annotated in red with the names of the
parts):
http://i.cubeupload.com/5z2J05.gif

2. Condenser fan is blowing full time (dunno if it always did that).
http://i.cubeupload.com/dQOTKL.jpg

3. Condenser coils are at room temperature and are dusty:
http://i.cubeupload.com/jgkVXv.jpg

4. Compressor tries to start every few minutes, and hums for about 15
seconds and then the overload relay clicks off.
http://i.cubeupload.com/p2OiCZ.jpg

5. Top of compressor is hot to the touch so I let it cool down overnight
but no change in operation:
http://i.cubeupload.com/wAX37P.jpg

6. Here is a video of the humming noise kick on every five minutes for
about 10 or 20
seconds and then a click when it shuts off:
http://tinypic.com/r/e6abk7/9

Here is another video of the humming noise and click off the next day when
the compressor was cold:
http://tinypic.com/r/20ubk3d/9

7. I removed the 12uF capacitor which looked good and had it tested at an
appliance parts counter and it tested good.
http://i.cubeupload.com/PiHwXk.jpg

8. I removed the overload and start relay (combination kit):
http://i.cubeupload.com/uHWsBd.jpg
http://i.cubeupload.com/EnZxki.jpg

9. I ran a few continuity tests, which seemed to return what may be
"normal" results:
http://i.cubeupload.com/PmCLK7.jpg

10. Unpowered, I shorted the two capacitor terminals in the relay so that I
could test continuity:
http://i.cubeupload.com/3tJTV7.jpg

11. The relay has only two wires going into it, and three holes coming out.
http://i.cubeupload.com/HBepTj.jpg

12. Disconnected from power, and with the capacitor terminals shorted:
a. Red power input terminal went directly to the relay top output pin
b. White neutral input terminal went directly to *both* lower output pins
http://i.cubeupload.com/I3t2HZ.jpg

13. If I remove the short between the capacitor pins, it changes to:
a. Red power input still went directly to the relay top output pin
b. White neutral input still went directly to the rearward lower output pin
c. White neutral input no longer innervates the forward lower output pin
http://i.cubeupload.com/JwcELQ.jpg

======================
14. In summary, this is the relay continuity
http://i.cubeupload.com/EpNXUi.jpg
(Note that this is not the type of relay that you can shake to hear
rattling inside.)

15. Powered, the relay has two neutrals and one hot (I would have thought
it should be the other way around, but I tested the neutrals to the chassis
of the frig): http://i.cubeupload.com/AIlj4p.jpg

16. Give those two results above, I am *guessing* that these are the motor
terminals (top seems to be COMMON (hot), Forward-bottom seems to be START
(neutral), and rearward bottom seems to be RUN (neutral):
http://i.cubeupload.com/23ew1U.jpg
(Again, I would have thought it would be a common neutral and not a common
hot but it doesn't seem to be wired that way.)

15. Here is a slightly better test jig with the 12uF/180VAC start capacitor
in series with the terminal that I "think" is the START terminal:
http://i.cubeupload.com/WrCzv4.jpg

16. I accidentally hooked it up backward the first time, with the HOT wire
splitting into two, one of which went through the capacitor and then to
what I think is the compressor START terminal - and the other hot went to
what I think is the compressor RUN terminal.
http://i.cubeupload.com/UJcLZD.jpg

17. Then I labeled the wires, and hooked it up the opposite way - with the
HOT wire going only to what I think is the compressor topward COMMON
terminal. One neutral wire went to the capacitor and then to what I think
is the compressor bottom-forward-facing START terminal and the other
neutral went to what I think is the compressor bottom-rearward facing RUN
terminal.
http://i.cubeupload.com/ryMq7y.jpg

In both tests, the motor just hummed but did not appear to start.
When I pulled what I think is the start wire neutral off, the hum didn't
change.

What do you make of these results?

 

[Danny D.]

On Mon, 11 Jul 2016 19:43:35 -0400, Bob Engelhardt wrote:

Actually, with AC, it's all the same. Functionally, that is - there is
a safety difference.

I hadn't thought of that. I did avoid touching the chassis.

The no-difference is due to the cap-in-series which limits the start
current to about 1/2 amp (its impedance is 220 ohms), while the run
current is likely 6, 8, or more amps. I.e., the start current is too
small to notice when it's removed.

Thanks for explaining that the start current is much less than the run
current, so the motor "sounds" wouldn't be easily discerned.

I can't think of anything else to try. It seems pretty conclusive that
the compressor is shot. Oh ... somebody said that the "Freon" line
could be plugged. That could be, but diagnosing and fixing that would
be just as expensive.

I don't know how to test for a plugged freon line either.

I suppose, for the hell of it, you could try reversing the start & run
leads. Can't hurt & maybe there was a brain fart that got their
identities reversed.

Thanks for that idea.
I just reversed the START and RUN terminals, and there was no difference.
It hummed but didn't kick on.

One problem is that I can't tell what's going on from the sound, but when I
hooked all the old parts back, it kicked off again as it did when I started
this thread.

Sigh.