Debug advice Kenmore coldspot 106-59422801 stopped refrigera

[Bob Engelhardt]

On 7/12/2016 11:16 PM, Danny D. wrote:
....

a. The old equipment tested good (as far as I could tell)
b. The jumper rig should have bypassed the relay (but not the OEM cap)
c. All this 3n1 "hard-start kit" did was replace those two things

Maybe it's a "bigger" capacitor?
http://i.cubeupload.com/8YQ1wK.jp

There's no mention on the package of how big the cap is, but physically,
the combination unit is far beefier than the OEM unit. So I dunno...
http://i.cubeupload.com/VD0haS.jpg

Do you think it could be as simple as the compressor just needed a
"beefier" cap?

Why would it need a beefier cap?

A more-capacitance cap would have a lower impedance and allow more
current to flow. More current in a motor means more torque.

There is still the possibility that the original cap is defective. That
the parts-place check did not measure capacitance, or if it did, it
wrongly concluded that the capacitance that it measured was the needed
value.

 

[Bob Engelhardt]

On 7/12/2016 10:56 PM, Danny D. wrote:
....

A. The first time I connected it, the compressor RAN!
B. The second time I connected it, the compressor kicked off after 20
seconds (and the power cord got hot).

When it was running, the Ammeter read 1.5Amps!
http://i.cubeupload.com/8YQ1wK.jpg

That's fantastic!

I let it run for about two minutes, and I could feel the output (thin)
discharge tubing getting hot to the touch. The input tubing didn't get a
chance to change temperature.

I told the wife it worked, so I unplugged it to show her that it starts up,
and guess what?

The second time I plugged it in, the overload kicked in after 20 seconds,
and the cord got noticably hot.

If I was confused before - I'm doubly confused now.

I'm gonna let it cool down a bit,

Refrigerators and AC's need to rest before being restarted. I think
that the pressures in the system have to equalize, so that the
compressor is not trying to start against too large a "head".

Normally this happens because when the thermostat turns it off, it's a
while before the thermostat tells it to turn on again.

 

[Stormin Mormon]

On 7/12/2016 7:08 PM, Bob Engelhardt wrote:

On 7/12/2016 6:35 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Don't bother. I suggested that a week ago,
and Danny totally ignored me. And ignored
my hints and reminders.

Actually, I don't think that you did. You probably meant to, but were
too pissed from his ignoring you.

Think I remember at least one reminder. Well,
moot point. He's gone so far afield on so many
directions, there's no contacting him, now.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

 

[Stormin Mormon]

On 7/12/2016 10:47 PM, Danny D. wrote:

On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 18:35:48 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Don't bother. I suggested that a week ago,
and Danny totally ignored me. And ignored
my hints and reminders.

You mean this?
http://i.cubeupload.com/VD0haS.jpg

I added a g to the end of the URL, and got
a picture. I can't comment on that, until
you answer my question.
--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

 

[Stormin Mormon]

On 7/12/2016 10:47 PM, Danny D. wrote:

On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 18:35:48 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Don't bother. I suggested that a week ago,
and Danny totally ignored me. And ignored
my hints and reminders.

You mean this?
http://i.cubeupload.com/VD0haS.jp

"not found" is what the web page says.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

 

[Danny D.]

On Wed, 13 Jul 2016 01:05:03 -0400, tom wrote:

> Did you remove all the dust from the condenser coil?

Up until now, I was just testing things.

So, instead of running the compressor from its own power cord and running
the rest of the frig on its own power cord, I just now connected the
compressor to the refrigerator main power cord.
http://i.cubeupload.com/VdC5eA.jpg

Unfortunately, the compressor wouldn't start, so I'll let it cool down for
another hour or so (it's VERY hot to the touch right now).

It would be interesting if the lack of starting was due to a lack of
voltage on the power cord due to "something else" lowering the voltage, but
the power cord tested roughly at 120V with the electrical tester.

Anyway, I started trying to clean the V-shaped condenser coils.
http://i.cubeupload.com/pkIigd.jpg

It's amazingly difficult (darn near impossible) to get the brush on the
backside of that upside-down V-shaped set of coils.
http://i.cubeupload.com/2mSU5V.jpg

 

[whit3rd]

On Monday, July 11, 2016 at 4:19:28 PM UTC-7, Danny D. wrote:

On Fri, 8 Jul 2016 23:22:01 -0000 (UTC), Danny D. wrote:

DETAILS:
0. Bought in 2010, the wife's Sears Kenmore coldspot 106-59422801
refrigerator/freezer just stopped working at the same time that a periodic
"humming and then clicking" noise started happening.
...

8. I removed the overload and start relay (combination kit):
http://i.cubeupload.com/uHWsBd.jpg
http://i.cubeupload.com/EnZxki.jpg

9. I ran a few continuity tests, which seemed to return what may be
"normal" results:
http://i.cubeupload.com/PmCLK7.jpg

No, that's NOT normal; the 'start relay' should be 5 ohms, cold.

I think your problem is the start relay. The 'hum' happens when the motor only
gets AC on the 'run' winding, and not on the 'start' winding (which is supposed
to connect with the 'relay'). The 'overload' clicks off because the nonrotating
motor doesn't have enough back-emf. If you replace everything EXCEPT the
start relay, and the symptom is exactly the same...

There would be gurgle sounds, and the overload would NOT click off, if the
start function was happening.

 

[90 psig]

On 07/13/2016 12:31 AM, Danny D. wrote:

It's amazingly difficult (darn near impossible) to get the brush on the
backside of that upside-down V-shaped set of coils.
http://i.cubeupload.com/2mSU5V.jpg

Mine are nearly impossible to vacuum as well. So every 2 years I empty the fridges, roll them outside on the deck and give the coils a good 90 psig blow job.

 

[Stormin Mormon]

On 7/13/2016 1:51 AM, tom wrote:

For the last time, did you clean the dust off the condenser coil? That's
important.

Please realize that Danny D claims to answer all
questions, but usually ignores the important
questions, even when asked several times. Danny
D appears to pick and choose what he sees, and
what he does. Even though he says I've helped
diagnose a couple of problems for him over the
years, he's lost my help on this refrig issue.
I can see a couple things that may very well be
big problems (and some simple things he can do).
But, not until he goes back and answers the
questions I've asked two or three times.

"for the last time" is a very wise thing to write.
I hope you keep your own word, and stop feeding
into this guy's analysis pyralysis.

If it had been my refrigerator, it would have
been fixed and running, long time ago. Danny D
doesn't appear to want it fixed, he's just doing
break down, analysis, flow charts, web pictures,
and videos.

Why spend any more time on a guy who's not serious?
I'm to the point where I glance at and delete the
posts with little attention to what he's playing
with.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

 

[Stormin Mormon]

On 7/13/2016 2:02 AM, Danny D. wrote:

I was throwing away the frig as of this morning, so, there was no need to
clean the condenser coil. I guess I'll clean it now - although do you
really thing *that* is what is making the compressor cycle?

When you go back and answer my question,
I'll consider answer yours.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

 

[Stormin Mormon]

On 7/13/2016 12:56 AM, Danny D. wrote:

Good news, and odd news.

1. I let it cool down for 1/2 hour and then when I plugged the Supco RC0410
1/4-to-1/3 HP 120VAC "3n1 Start" Solid State Relay Overload Start Capacitor
Combination unit in to the mains, the compressor started again!

2. I left the connections to the motor where they were, which seemed to
match our assumption that the top was the COMMON, and the forward-facing
bottom was the START and the rearward facing bottom was the RUN/MARK
connection.
http://i.cubeupload.com/YMMqW4.jpg

3. You'll notice I am not using the original power cord, so I have the rest
of the frig (including condenser the fan) on its own power supply and the
Supco RC0410 hard-start cap on its own power cord.
http://i.cubeupload.com/yiOL3g.jpg

3. With the Ammeter on the 15Amp scale, when the compressor was running,
the current on the black COMMON lead was about 3 amps.
http://i.cubeupload.com/GLn0bK.jpg

4. To doublecheck, I checked the current on the input cord neutrals, which
was also 3 Amps (not surprisingly):
http://i.cubeupload.com/k7D1Th.jpg

5. When the compressor was starting, the current on the START lead jumped a
bit (maybe double the 3 amps?) and then instantly settled down to zero amps
(or very slightly above zero amps).
http://i.cubeupload.com/5vR3jy.jpg

6. Then the compressor ran for about 10 or 20 minutes, getting very hot to
the touch, where the output (thin) line was hot enough to burn my
fingertips and even the input (thick) copper line was warm to the touch
(and the refrigerator began to get noticeably cooler inside the doors).

7. After 10 or 15 or so minutes of running, the compressor began to hum
instead of work causing 11 amps to flow through the COMMON lead, and then
the relay clicked off (is that supposed to happen?).
http://i.cubeupload.com/9TNB1Q.jpg

8. Then the compressor turned back on, after about 10 minutes, and worked
for a much shorter period of time, before turning off again (maybe fewer
than five minutes).

Is it normal for a compressor to shut off after getting very hot after
working for only about 10 minutes?

Is it OK to have the frig temporarily on two power cords?
a. One for the fan and the rest of the frig
b. One just for the compressor

If you'd done what I said, and played along,
this could have been fixed last week. Hope
you are enjoying your self.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

 

[Danny D.]

On Wed, 13 Jul 2016 02:01:44 -0600, 90 psig wrote:

Mine are nearly impossible to vacuum as well.
So every 2 years I empty the fridges, roll them
outside on the deck and give the coils a good 90
psig blow job.

That gave me an idea!

I hooked a 100-foot air hose to my wheeled 100psi 220VAC compressor in the
garage, and found that it's exactly 100 feet from the bottom of the garage
steps to the refrigerator condenser coils!

They're all clean now!
http://i.cubeupload.com/q1fSgx.jpg

But, while I was lying on my stomach on the floor behind the frig, I
suddenly heard my sister scream for my wife to come to the kitchen quick!

Oooh oooh busted!
http://i.cubeupload.com/Vvbex9.jpg

PS: My wife wants her kitchen back!

 

[Danny D.]

On Wed, 13 Jul 2016 07:56:28 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

If you'd done what I said, and played along,
this could have been fixed last week. Hope
you are enjoying your self.

I don't see why you're so angry.

I'm trying to fix the frig while keeping my sister from saying "I told you
so" and while my wife is constantly asking me when she can have her kitchen
back.

I've never even *looked* at the back of a frig before (although I know
basic refrigeration theory from high-school chemistry).

The 1/2-to-1/3HP hard-start cap isn't working.

Half the time it starts the compressor, and half the time it does NOT start
the compressor.

 

[Danny D.]

On Wed, 13 Jul 2016 05:48:41 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 wrote:

From your new testing, it would seem that you've confirmed what you
already thought. Something is wrong with either the compressor or a
restriction in the lines.

Thanks for that suggestion.

All

All I know, at this point, is that half the time the compressor starts and
half the time it won't start, even with the hard-start cap installed.

> More likely it's a bad compressor, so it's harder to start than it should be.

It sure is!

The hard start kit gave it the
additional kick it needed to get going, but ultimately it failed
anyway because after some time it overloads and trips.

That seems to be the case. This morning, after sitting overnight, it did
NOT start with the hard start cap, and pulled 13.5 Amps.
http://i.cubeupload.com/Wo2RvQ.jpg

That is assuming the hardstart kit has the correct cap size for the
motor.

Let's hope that the cap is just too small for the motor horsepower.

Unfortunately, the motor doesn't say the horsepower (which is odd for a
motor but this is a motor/compressor combo):
http://i.cubeupload.com/34bCaq.jpg

Given it takes about 3 amps of current when running, googling, I find the
formumla for horsepower (for single phase?) to be:
(Volts x Amps x 1.732 x Eff x PF)/746

I assume an efficiency of, oh, I don't know, maybe 0.65?

I don't really understand power factor for a single-phase motor:
http://ecmweb.com/content/power-factor-correction-single-induction-motors

So I will just assume a power factor of 1.
120volts x 3amps x 1.732 x 0.65efficiency x 1 power factor)/746

I think that makes it about 1/2 HP motor, but, I also think it pulled 1.5
amps before, so that makes it really about 1/4 horsepower (I think).

So, I'll split the difference (not knowing any better yet), and call it
between 1/3 and 1/4 horsepower, which means it is the correct sized
capacitor.

Going back to the package, hmmm... it seems to be for that size:
http://i.cubeupload.com/VD0haS.jpg

Have you checked that the fan inside the fridge is working to move
the cold air? If the fan is shot or blocked, it will ice up and
the compressor will probably have an increased load on it that
could cause trouble, resulting in it shutting down.

The fan "inside" the frig?
There's a fan inside the frig?

I opened the frig, and didn't hear or see any fan or feel air movement,
but, the freezer seems to have a fan, which seems to be working. I don't
know *where* that freezer fan is, but it's near the top (I think) behind
the bulkhead somewhere, I think. It seems to be working from sound alone.

Is there another fan I'm missing?

Even so, the compressor won't start now. It started once out of about 10
tries, and it went off only because the wife wanted the wires cleaned up
(snaking across the kitchen floor) and I accidentally unplugged it.
http://i.cubeupload.com/Dio9Uz.jpg

 

[Danny D.]

On Wed, 13 Jul 2016 07:44:12 -0700, Oren wrote:

> Um... "NO START WITHOUT STARTING DEVICE" :-\

Hi Oren,

I guess that means you're actually looking at the pictures!

We know the cap is needed, based on that, so, it makes sense that the test
jig without the cap wouldn't ever have worked.

This morning it wouldn't start, even though it was cool, so I started
wondering if the power coming out of the refrigerator cord was being
shunted in some other circuit, since the hard-start cap was hooked to the
same power as the rest of the refrigerator:
http://i.cubeupload.com/62T0dG.jpg

To give the compressor its own dedicated power, I created a test cord with
alligator clamps so that I could have a dedicated power for the compressor.

Note in this picture the open refrigerator leads:
http://i.cubeupload.com/VsCyzM.jpg

But, nothing seems to have changed by giving the compressor its own
dedicated wall outlet:
http://i.cubeupload.com/Dio9Uz.jpg

When it works (which right now is about 1 out of 10 times), it draws only a
couple of amps, but when it fails (which is most of the time), it draws a
whopping 13.5 amps!
http://i.cubeupload.com/Wo2RvQ.jpg

I am trying to understand what makes the compressor start sometimes, and
what makes it not start most of the time, all under essentially the same
conditions.

To debug what's going on, I need to CHANGE some condition.
But what condition can I change that will lead me to a diagnosis of what's
really wrong?

 

[pfjw@aol.com]

On Wednesday, July 13, 2016 at 1:54:31 PM UTC-4, Danny D. wrote:

Is there another fan I'm missing?

Even so, the compressor won't start now. It started once out of about 10
tries, and it went off only because the wife wanted the wires cleaned up
(snaking across the kitchen floor) and I accidentally unplugged it.
http://i.cubeupload.com/Dio9Uz.jpg

Forgive me for being a bit strident here.

a) Either your time is worth about US$0.35/hour, or you are willing to expend vast amounts of time to avoid landfill.
b) I am guessing that the unit is pushing 8 years old, possibly more.
c) Replacing a compressor in a home refrigerator is not for the faint of heart or for the uncertified technician. The unit alone is costly, evacuating the lines and flushing out any debris requires complicated tools, and you really will not get your money back as even with all this, the unit will never be "like new".

With all that in mind, and the fact that this will not get any better, start looking for a new refrigerator. Now. Your wife deserves better than this, and for a fact, Home Depot is having one helluva sale on LG & Samsung, and if you are anywhere near Delaware, the Sears Scratch-Dent store has always treated us well - we have a now 10-year old GE that had a list price of $1,299 that we got for $699. Sure it has a gouge on the back, but no torn sheet-metal, and it works fine. I am sure you have other local resources as well. So, ask yourself: $300 for compressor and related parts. A vacuum pump, rent or purchase. Refrigerant, oil, flush kit and so on. Gonna be at least half the cost of a brand new unit *at retail*. Now, try purchasing the extended warranty this time if you really want to avoid this crap in the first place.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

[Oren]

On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 20:21:30 -0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
<dannydiamico@yahoo.com> wrote:

>http://i.cubeupload.com/34bCaq.jpg

Um... "NO START WITHOUT STARTING DEVICE" :-\

 

[Oren]

On Wed, 13 Jul 2016 17:54:27 -0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
<dannydiamico@yahoo.com> wrote:

All I know, at this point, is that half the time the compressor starts and
half the time it won't start, even with the hard-start cap installed.

Could be a bad part out of the box? Known to happen.

My HVAC Tech replaced a Supco SPD (surge protector device) on my AC
compressor. Warranty, no cost. Changed brands I think.

 

[FrozenNorth]

On 2016-07-13 2:03 PM, Danny D. wrote:

On Wed, 13 Jul 2016 07:44:12 -0700, Oren wrote:

Um... "NO START WITHOUT STARTING DEVICE" :-\

Hi Oren,

I guess that means you're actually looking at the pictures!

We know the cap is needed, based on that, so, it makes sense that the test
jig without the cap wouldn't ever have worked.

This morning it wouldn't start, even though it was cool, so I started
wondering if the power coming out of the refrigerator cord was being
shunted in some other circuit, since the hard-start cap was hooked to the
same power as the rest of the refrigerator:
http://i.cubeupload.com/62T0dG.jpg

To give the compressor its own dedicated power, I created a test cord with
alligator clamps so that I could have a dedicated power for the compressor.

Note in this picture the open refrigerator leads:
http://i.cubeupload.com/VsCyzM.jpg

But, nothing seems to have changed by giving the compressor its own
dedicated wall outlet:
http://i.cubeupload.com/Dio9Uz.jpg

When it works (which right now is about 1 out of 10 times), it draws only a
couple of amps, but when it fails (which is most of the time), it draws a
whopping 13.5 amps!
http://i.cubeupload.com/Wo2RvQ.jpg

I am trying to understand what makes the compressor start sometimes, and
what makes it not start most of the time, all under essentially the same
conditions.

To debug what's going on, I need to CHANGE some condition.
But what condition can I change that will lead me to a diagnosis of what's
really wrong?

Good Lord, replace the cap, they are not that expensive, otherwise buy a
new fridge, that costs more money. If the light comes on inside when
you open the door the power works, why look beyond that?

--
Froz....

 

[Oren]

On Wed, 13 Jul 2016 17:09:41 -0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
<dannydiamico@yahoo.com> wrote:

If you'd done what I said, and played along,
this could have been fixed last week. Hope
you are enjoying your self.

I don't see why you're so angry.

He gets mad if your thread count is higher than his.

And he doesn't know you are a bean counter accountant with size 11.5
sneakers.