Debug advice Kenmore coldspot 106-59422801 stopped refrigera

[Danny D.]

On Mon, 11 Jul 2016 16:28:36 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster wrote:

> I doubt the capacitor would cause your demise unless you jabbed electrodes into your heart and discharged the cap through them. The safest way to discharge any motor start/run capacitor is by putting a five thousand ohm resistor across it. I've used a 60 watt light bulb across the terminals of a big motor start electrolytic capacitor because shorting it with a screwdriver or piece of wire can damage the Faston terminals. If you're worried about any charge on the capacitor, use my light bulb trick. ^_^

Ah, resistance.
Why didn't I think of that.
I'll make a test jig out of the existing wires, and put a 5K ohm resistor
on it.
Thanks for that idea.

 

[Danny D.]

On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 00:08:49 -0000 (UTC), Danny D. wrote:

One problem is that I can't tell what's going on from the sound, but when I
hooked all the old parts back, it kicked off again as it did when I started
this thread.

The main problem I have is that I don't know what a good compressor humming
sounds like, compared to a bad compressor humming.

Is it safe to leave the test jig in place for an hour or three to see if
the lines get cold?

 

[Danny D.]

On Mon, 11 Jul 2016 19:49:56 -0400, tom wrote:

> Oh, oh, oh... Set up a video and put this on youtube. It might be a winner.

Heh heh... You should have heard the wife scream when "I" got zapped by the
12uF capacitor!

 

[Danny D.]

On Mon, 11 Jul 2016 20:06:03 -0400, tom wrote:

Just for the hell of it can you take an ohmmeter measurement from any of the
three terminals to the case? It should show open (very high resistance). If
it measures any resistance, the compressor is bad.

Thanks for that advice, as I'm at a loss as to how to know the humming
sounds of a good versus bad compressor.

I did check the resistance when I was trying to figure the pinout of the
compressor three pins, and all are insulated.

But thank you for that idea as I had not mentioned that test.

 

[Danny D.]

On Mon, 11 Jul 2016 20:33:08 -0400, tom wrote:

If the compressor is running, the discharge line (the smaller copper tube)
will get warm (hot).

Which line in this picture is that "discharge line" that will get hot?
http://i.cubeupload.com/wAX37P.jpg

How long will it take to get hot?

 

[Danny D.]

On Mon, 11 Jul 2016 20:35:30 -0400, Bob Engelhardt wrote:

That's a good point! Maybe it IS running with test jig. Do you have an
AC ammeter? If so, check if the run current drops after a second or two
with the test jig. If so, it's running. But if it stays high, it's not.

I have a 10Amp Fluke 77 but I lent it to an ex brother in law, and it has
never returned. So, currently I'm stuck with a radio shack dial ammeter,
but it does have an inductive clip that I can clip on.

Looking at the manual it has 3A, 15A, and 30A AC current ranges.

If it isn't running, the excess current from it being in the start mode
continuously will overheat the compressor. That's what the overload
device was protecting against. You might be thinking "So what?" & I see
that point, but I'm not going to say that it would be safe.

I don't want to burn down the house for a frig!

 

[Ryou Kudo]

On Mon, 11 Jul 2016 20:35:30 -0400, Bob Engelhardt wrote:

If it isn't running, the excess current from it being in the start mode
continuously will overheat the compressor.

Actually, I just realized I could leave the START wire off, right?

So the question is whether it's dangerous or not to just run with the two
wires connected to the compressor for a few hours, RUN and COMMON?

 

[Bob Engelhardt]

On 7/11/2016 6:06 PM, Danny D. wrote:
....

4. Here is the suggested test jig with the cap in series with the terminal
that I "think" is the START terminal:
http://i.cubeupload.com/WrCzv4.jpg

Yep, that's right.

5. I accidentally hooked it up backward the first time, with the HOT wire
splitting into two, one of which went through the capacitor and then to
what I think is the compressor START terminal - and the other hot went to
what I think is the compressor RUN terminal.
http://i.cubeupload.com/UJcLZD.jpg

Actually, with AC, it's all the same. Functionally, that is - there is
a safety difference.

6. Then I labeled the wires, and hooked it up the opposite way - with the
HOT wire going only to what I think is the compressor topward COMMON
terminal. One neutral wire went to the capacitor and then to what I think
is the compressor bottom-forward-facing START terminal and the other
neutral went to what I think is the compressor bottom-rearward facing RUN
terminal.
http://i.cubeupload.com/ryMq7y.jpg

In both tests, the motor just hummed but did not appear to start.
When I pulled what I think is the start wire neutral off, the hum didn't
change.

What do you make of this?

You've already determined that there is continuity on the start winding,
so no difference when pulling it does not indicate an open winding.

The no-difference is due to the cap-in-series which limits the start
current to about 1/2 amp (its impedance is 220 ohms), while the run
current is likely 6, 8, or more amps. I.e., the start current is too
small to notice when it's removed.

What are my options?
(PS: Money is tight).

I can't think of anything else to try. It seems pretty conclusive that
the compressor is shot. Oh ... somebody said that the "Freon" line
could be plugged. That could be, but diagnosing and fixing that would
be just as expensive.

I suppose, for the hell of it, you could try reversing the start & run
leads. Can't hurt & maybe there was a brain fart that got their
identities reversed.

Bob

 

[Bob Engelhardt]

On 7/11/2016 7:19 PM, Danny D. wrote:

On Fri, 8 Jul 2016 23:22:01 -0000 (UTC), Danny D. wrote:
Here is a summary, from top to bottom of where it's at.
...

Nicely done.

 

[tom]

"Danny D." <dannydiamico@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:nlruv7$c7f$1@news.mixmin.net...

On Sat, 09 Jul 2016 10:20:40 -0700, Oren wrote:

My memory fails. Awhile back there was a link or video about the
sequence of how you test the pins. No clue if it is accurate or
correct.

Blank stare:

1) Bottom two pins

2) Bottom right and top

3) Top and Bottom left
--

Went to a great appliance store in San Jose where the guy behind the
counter tested the cap and said it was good.

He said the compressor not working could be three things:
1. Bad compressor
2. Bad relay
3. Restriction in the freon lines

He strongly suggested I not buy his relay from him before testing it, and
he explained how the relay works (the white part is the thermal switch by
the way).

He said to plug in the power to the relay (two spades) and check that the
backside of the relay (3 pins) has power to common.

To do this, he told me to create a test jig where I can put 120 volts to
the Start and Main/Run pins of the compressor, with the neutral on the
common pin, and then pull off the start once the compressor starts.

He said if the compressor doesn't start - then that's it for the frig.

So I went home empty handed and then picked up some alligator clips,
spades, and butt connectors and am slapping together a test jig as we
type.
The wife and sister were very unhappy that I came home, essentially, empty
handed. But the guy was right that I didn't do enough diagnostics.

The test jig will have two spades on the incoming end, which will plug
into
the existing power cable (hot and neutral), and then it will have three
outputs which will be tube-connectors (two hots and one neutral).

The procedure will be:
1. Unplug power
2. Hook two male spades to female spades in power cord
3. Hook a butt plug to Start (hot) and to Run/Main (hot) and to neutral
4. Plug it in
5. Yank off the start wire as soon as the compressor starts

If the compressor starts, then it's good.
If not ...

Oh, oh, oh... Set up a video and put this on youtube. It might be a winner.

 

[tom]

"Danny D." <dannydiamico@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:nm19hs$51n$1@news.mixmin.net...

On Fri, 8 Jul 2016 23:22:01 -0000 (UTC), Danny D. wrote:
Here is a summary, from top to bottom of where it's at.

SUMMARY:
I don't know if I tested it correctly, nor if I identified the circuit
correctly, but if I both identified and tested the circuit correctly, then
the compressor motor is bad.

However, maybe I made a mistake?

DETAILS:
0. Bought in 2010, the wife's Sears Kenmore coldspot 106-59422801
refrigerator/freezer just stopped working at the same time that a periodic
"humming and then clicking" noise started happening.

1. Here is the parts diagram (I annotated in red with the names of the
parts):
http://i.cubeupload.com/5z2J05.gif

2. Condenser fan is blowing full time (dunno if it always did that).
http://i.cubeupload.com/dQOTKL.jpg

3. Condenser coils are at room temperature and are dusty:
http://i.cubeupload.com/jgkVXv.jpg

4. Compressor tries to start every few minutes, and hums for about 15
seconds and then the overload relay clicks off.
http://i.cubeupload.com/p2OiCZ.jpg

5. Top of compressor is hot to the touch so I let it cool down overnight
but no change in operation:
http://i.cubeupload.com/wAX37P.jpg

6. Here is a video of the humming noise kick on every five minutes for
about 10 or 20
seconds and then a click when it shuts off:
http://tinypic.com/r/e6abk7/9

Here is another video of the humming noise and click off the next day when
the compressor was cold:
http://tinypic.com/r/20ubk3d/9

7. I removed the 12uF capacitor which looked good and had it tested at an
appliance parts counter and it tested good.
http://i.cubeupload.com/PiHwXk.jpg

8. I removed the overload and start relay (combination kit):
http://i.cubeupload.com/uHWsBd.jpg
http://i.cubeupload.com/EnZxki.jpg

9. I ran a few continuity tests, which seemed to return what may be
"normal" results:
http://i.cubeupload.com/PmCLK7.jpg

10. Unpowered, I shorted the two capacitor terminals in the relay so that
I
could test continuity:
http://i.cubeupload.com/3tJTV7.jpg

11. The relay has only two wires going into it, and three holes coming
out.
http://i.cubeupload.com/HBepTj.jpg

12. Disconnected from power, and with the capacitor terminals shorted:
a. Red power input terminal went directly to the relay top output pin
b. White neutral input terminal went directly to *both* lower output pins
http://i.cubeupload.com/I3t2HZ.jpg

13. If I remove the short between the capacitor pins, it changes to:
a. Red power input still went directly to the relay top output pin
b. White neutral input still went directly to the rearward lower output
pin
c. White neutral input no longer innervates the forward lower output pin
http://i.cubeupload.com/JwcELQ.jpg

======================
14. In summary, this is the relay continuity
http://i.cubeupload.com/EpNXUi.jpg
(Note that this is not the type of relay that you can shake to hear
rattling inside.)

15. Powered, the relay has two neutrals and one hot (I would have thought
it should be the other way around, but I tested the neutrals to the
chassis
of the frig): http://i.cubeupload.com/AIlj4p.jpg

16. Give those two results above, I am *guessing* that these are the motor
terminals (top seems to be COMMON (hot), Forward-bottom seems to be START
(neutral), and rearward bottom seems to be RUN (neutral):
http://i.cubeupload.com/23ew1U.jpg
(Again, I would have thought it would be a common neutral and not a common
hot but it doesn't seem to be wired that way.)

15. Here is a slightly better test jig with the 12uF/180VAC start
capacitor
in series with the terminal that I "think" is the START terminal:
http://i.cubeupload.com/WrCzv4.jpg

16. I accidentally hooked it up backward the first time, with the HOT wire
splitting into two, one of which went through the capacitor and then to
what I think is the compressor START terminal - and the other hot went to
what I think is the compressor RUN terminal.
http://i.cubeupload.com/UJcLZD.jpg

17. Then I labeled the wires, and hooked it up the opposite way - with the
HOT wire going only to what I think is the compressor topward COMMON
terminal. One neutral wire went to the capacitor and then to what I think
is the compressor bottom-forward-facing START terminal and the other
neutral went to what I think is the compressor bottom-rearward facing RUN
terminal.
http://i.cubeupload.com/ryMq7y.jpg

In both tests, the motor just hummed but did not appear to start.
When I pulled what I think is the start wire neutral off, the hum didn't
change.

What do you make of these results?

Just for the hell of it can you take an ohmmeter measurement from any of the
three terminals to the case? It should show open (very high resistance). If
it measures any resistance, the compressor is bad.

 

[tom]

"Danny D." <dannydiamico@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:nm1d9e$bgh$1@news.mixmin.net...

On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 00:08:49 -0000 (UTC), Danny D. wrote:

One problem is that I can't tell what's going on from the sound, but when
I
hooked all the old parts back, it kicked off again as it did when I
started
this thread.

The main problem I have is that I don't know what a good compressor
humming
sounds like, compared to a bad compressor humming.

Is it safe to leave the test jig in place for an hour or three to see if
the lines get cold?

If the compressor is running, the discharge line (the smaller copper tube)
will get warm (hot).

 

[Bob Engelhardt]

On 7/11/2016 8:23 PM, Danny D. wrote:

On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 00:08:49 -0000 (UTC), Danny D. wrote:

One problem is that I can't tell what's going on from the sound, but when I
hooked all the old parts back, it kicked off again as it did when I started
this thread.

The main problem I have is that I don't know what a good compressor humming
sounds like, compared to a bad compressor humming.

That's a good point! Maybe it IS running with test jig. Do you have an
AC ammeter? If so, check if the run current drops after a second or two
with the test jig. If so, it's running. But if it stays high, it's not.

Is it safe to leave the test jig in place for an hour or three to see if
the lines get cold?

If it isn't running, the excess current from it being in the start mode
continuously will overheat the compressor. That's what the overload
device was protecting against. You might be thinking "So what?" & I see
that point, but I'm not going to say that it would be safe.

Bob

 

[tom]

"Danny D." <dannydiamico@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:nm1jna$n5j$1@news.mixmin.net...

On Mon, 11 Jul 2016 20:33:08 -0400, tom wrote:

If the compressor is running, the discharge line (the smaller copper
tube)
will get warm (hot).

Which line in this picture is that "discharge line" that will get hot?
http://i.cubeupload.com/wAX37P.jpg

How long will it take to get hot?

The small line on the far right is the compressor high side (output). The
bent tube in the center is the process tube where the system is pulled to
vacuum then charged with refrigerant. The tube on the left is the suction
line and pulls evaporated cold gas from the cold coils inside the
refrigerator.

Do a google search on refrigeration cycle for more details.

It should begin to heat up quickly (minutes or so) if the compressor is
running.

 

[Bob Engelhardt]

On 7/11/2016 10:20 PM, Ryou Kudo wrote:

On Mon, 11 Jul 2016 20:35:30 -0400, Bob Engelhardt wrote:

If it isn't running, the excess current from it being in the start mode
continuously will overheat the compressor.

Actually, I just realized I could leave the START wire off, right?

So the question is whether it's dangerous or not to just run with the two
wires connected to the compressor for a few hours, RUN and COMMON?

 

[Bob Engelhardt]

On 7/11/2016 10:20 PM, Ryou Kudo wrote:

On Mon, 11 Jul 2016 20:35:30 -0400, Bob Engelhardt wrote:

If it isn't running, the excess current from it being in the start mode
continuously will overheat the compressor.

Actually, I just realized I could leave the START wire off, right?

So the question is whether it's dangerous or not to just run with the two
wires connected to the compressor for a few hours, RUN and COMMON?

Well, you need the Start wire for a few seconds, to get it started.
Then the Start wire should NOT be connected.

But that doesn't change whether the compressor will overheat. Which it
will if it hasn't actually started. With the overload protector in
there, it only took, what, 20 seconds to trip? The engineer who
designed it thought that 20 seconds was the longest that it should "run"
if it hadn't started.

Bob

Excuse the previous null post - brain fart.

 

[Bob Engelhardt]

On 7/11/2016 10:18 PM, Danny D. wrote:

I have a 10Amp Fluke 77 but I lent it to an ex brother in law, and it has
never returned. So, currently I'm stuck with a radio shack dial ammeter,
but it does have an inductive clip that I can clip on.

Looking at the manual it has 3A, 15A, and 30A AC current ranges.
...

That's good - I would use the 15A range, 3A isn't going to be enough.

 

[tom]

"tom" <tmiller11147@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:nm1ukf$c9h$1@dont-email.me...

"Danny D." <dannydiamico@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:nm1dio$c2m$1@news.mixmin.net...
On Mon, 11 Jul 2016 20:06:03 -0400, tom wrote:

Just for the hell of it can you take an ohmmeter measurement from any of
the
three terminals to the case? It should show open (very high resistance).
If
it measures any resistance, the compressor is bad.

Thanks for that advice, as I'm at a loss as to how to know the humming
sounds of a good versus bad compressor.

I did check the resistance when I was trying to figure the pinout of the
compressor three pins, and all are insulated.

But thank you for that idea as I had not mentioned that test.

This may help you if you have a good meter that will read low ohms.

http://fixitnow.com/wp/2010/09/09/identifying-compressor-terminals-start-run-and-main/

One other thing to search on is CSIR compressor. That stands for Capacitor
Start - Induction Run motor. Since you unit seems to only have the one
capacitor, it is likely a CSIR compressor. If you can pop open the start
relay and see if there really is a relay, it will be a current relay that on
start up the high current pulls in the relay and connects the line high to
the start winding. Once the compressor is running, the relay drops out and
disconnects the capacitor.

You can do as the one poster suggest and make up jumpers and see if you can
get the compressor to start. Identify the three terminals (C-S-R for Common,
Start, and Run)

Think through the problem and you should be able to make some progress.

 

[tom]

"Danny D." <dannydiamico@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:nm1dio$c2m$1@news.mixmin.net...

On Mon, 11 Jul 2016 20:06:03 -0400, tom wrote:

Just for the hell of it can you take an ohmmeter measurement from any of
the
three terminals to the case? It should show open (very high resistance).
If
it measures any resistance, the compressor is bad.

Thanks for that advice, as I'm at a loss as to how to know the humming
sounds of a good versus bad compressor.

I did check the resistance when I was trying to figure the pinout of the
compressor three pins, and all are insulated.

But thank you for that idea as I had not mentioned that test.

This may help you if you have a good meter that will read low ohms.

http://fixitnow.com/wp/2010/09/09/identifying-compressor-terminals-start-run-and-main/

 

[Danny D.]

On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 01:19:23 -0400, tom wrote:

This may help you if you have a good meter that will read low ohms.
http://fixitnow.com/wp/2010/09/09/identifying-compressor-terminals-start-run-and-main/

Thank you for that reference which said:
a. The highest reading will be the ´StartĄ winding
b. The next highest reading will be the ´RunĄ winding
c. The lowest reading will be the ´CommonĄ winding

Unfortunately, I lent my Fluke DMM to my ex brother in law, and he hasn't
returned it yet - but I did check with the emergency Radio Shack dial
meter, and I think I've properly identified the COMMON, START, and RUN
terminals on the compressor.

I zeroed the Radio Shack meter, and put the ohms on the lowest setting
(RX100), and tested.

1. The (reputed) START to COMMON was "about" 5 ohms
2. The (reputed) RUN to COMMON was "slightly less"
3. The START to RUN was slightly less than 10 ohms

Also, I checked the resistance to ground (i.e., to the copper pipes).
First I checked that the copper pipe was grounded, and they were.
Then I checked each terminal on the compressor to the pipe and they were
all infinite.

So, *electrically*, the compressor checks out perfectly (within the
abilities of my instruments).

There is the mechanical part though ... still to test.