Wind turbines used to absorb a power surplus?...

[Ed P]

On 4/10/2023 1:25 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 10/04/2023 15:18, Ed P wrote:
On 4/10/2023 7:12 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
margin).

Well no it isnt. Gas is back to pre war prices. Bu electricity is now
about 10 times what it used to be.
Clearly it is linked to the cost of renewables,


Did your ass hurt when you pulled that number out of it?  Only changes
here were due to the natural gas spikes so some areas saw 10%.

I am paying 50p a unit.
I used to pay 5p 20 years ago and pre renewables it was around 12p

With normal inflation, that 5p would be about 9p. So actual electric
increase is 6x not 10x.

 

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 10/04/2023 19:36, Ed P wrote:

On 4/10/2023 1:25 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 10/04/2023 15:18, Ed P wrote:
On 4/10/2023 7:12 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
margin).

Well no it isnt. Gas is back to pre war prices. Bu electricity is
now about 10 times what it used to be.
Clearly it is linked to the cost of renewables,


Did your ass hurt when you pulled that number out of it?  Only
changes here were due to the natural gas spikes so some areas saw 10%.

I am paying 50p a unit.
I used to pay 5p 20 years ago and pre renewables it was around 12p


With normal inflation, that 5p would be about 9p.  So actual electric
increase is 6x not 10x.
Look at the graphs

--
Those who want slavery should have the grace to name it by its proper
name. They must face the full meaning of that which they are advocating
or condoning; the full, exact, specific meaning of collectivism, of its
logical implications, of the principles upon which it is based, and of
the ultimate consequences to which these principles will lead. They must
face it, then decide whether this is what they want or not.

Ayn Rand.

 

[Sam Plusnet]

On 10-Apr-23 12:02, Martin Brown wrote:

Certainly you would never do it the way the UK does unless you were out
of your mind.

Who wants to buy their electricity from a company named \"Octopus\"
(genuine name - I\'m not making it up). \"Bulb\" went pop!

Clearly all is well in the UK - if the worst thing you can find to
complain about is the names of the energy companies.

--
Sam Plusnet

 

[Fredxx]

On 10/04/2023 18:29, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 10/04/2023 15:18, Ed P wrote:
On 4/10/2023 7:12 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
margin).

Well no it isnt. Gas is back to pre war prices. Bu electricity is now
about 10 times what it used to be.
Clearly it is linked to the cost of renewables,


Did your ass hurt when you pulled that number out of it?  Only changes
here were due to the natural gas spikes so some areas saw 10%.

https://www.eia.gov/dnav/ng/hist/rngwhhdm.htm
https://www.statista.com/statistics/589765/average-electricity-prices-uk/
Current electricity prices have NOTHING to do with gas prices
So you can stuck those charts up yiur arse and have an orgasm

Once again you put on your myopic glasses.

The spot price doesn\'t correspond with UK landed prices. LNG ships are
in short demand. Plus it takes time for ships to make port.

The current price paid by retailers is determined by the most expensive
generator needed to supply the network\'s customers at any time.

You should know that. When you provide evidence that it is the renewable
setting the higher prices, then you may have a point. But I know you
can\'t back up your ridiculous claims.

 

[Rod Speed]

On Mon, 10 Apr 2023 21:02:32 +1000, Martin Brown
<\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

On 09/04/2023 14:45, John Larkin wrote:
On Sun, 09 Apr 2023 05:35:40 +0100, \"Commander Kinsey\"
CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

On Fri, 31 Mar 2023 16:43:35 +0100, John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandsnipmetechnology.com> wrote:

On Fri, 31 Mar 2023 16:14:23 +0100, \"Commander Kinsey\"
CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 15:33:34 -0000, John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandsnipmetechnology.com> wrote:

On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 11:10:55 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On 18/03/2023 10:49, alan_m wrote:
On 18/03/2023 09:39, Commander Kinsey wrote:

I was also disturbed to hear from him it costs £700 to install
smart
meters into each home.

Possibly a bit more for both gas and electricity but around the
right
ball park figure.

It\'s always been the case that they had to replace non-smart
meters
every so often - at one time I think the target was every 10
years. I
had a friend who worked for BG and one of his jobs was to organise
routine meter replacements (long before smart meters). When it
became my
turn to have my gas meter replaced I somehow managed to get an
appointment that suited me

And in the UK that comes from green tax.
Shouldn\'t that tax be being spent on making more green energy,
building new wind farms?

Shouldn\'t that tax be scrapped to make our bills cheaper.
It used to be spent on giving us all free CFL light bulbs.

Of course it should be, along with all windmills, solar panels and
any
feed in tarriffs.

Your confusion arises from the fact they you think they are
working for
you. Government is not your friend, or your servant, It\'s your
enemy,
and wants to be your master. Because if it isn\'t it fears you
might get
rid of it.

Our regulated private utilities here are excellent. Some towns have
taken over local distribution, so are getting less excellent.

Privatization = competition = cheap. Government controlled = jobs
for the boys = expensive.

Our power utilities aren\'t competitive - that wouldn\'t make sense -

Why on earth do you believe it wouldn\'t make sense?
Because it\'s impractical to run multiple distribution pipes and wires
in a city.

You don\'t have to run multiple cabling systems.

The UK did it by splitting the distribution network off from generating
completely.

Ours went even further with the generating and distribution
separated from the retailers tho some of the generators are
also retailers, most of the retailers just retail power they buy.

They effectively rent usage of the national distribution grid network
proportionate to how much power they put into it.

The producers of electricity then have to compete to supply their
electricity to the National Grid. UK system is deeply flawed because the
price they get paid is linked to the cost of gas turbine generation (and
not a cost to produce plus some margin).

This has produced some enormous windfall profits for real energy
generation companies and conversely large scale bankruptcies of
deregulated energy box shifters who had no clue what they were doing.
Basically they were destroyed by fixed price retail sale contracts and
wholesale gas prices more than doubling in a very short period of time..

A local utility can seek competitive sources of gas and electricity if
large-scale transmission permits.

In the UK, I think they are competing. The national grid will buy the
cheapest source it can. Expensive power sources are only used when
they are really needed. Eg. wind power is always on, gas is switched
off at times of low load. A gas power station which sells power
cheaper will be turned on first.

but are regulated monopolies. But they are very good.

Nothing regulated by the government is good.
Some things here are excellent.

Certainly you would never do it the way the UK does unless you were out
of your mind.

Who wants to buy their electricity from a company named \"Octopus\"
(genuine name - I\'m not making it up). \"Bulb\" went pop!

We have one called Dodo who do electricity, gas and mobile phone services.

A full list of all the deregulated and clueless suppliers that have gone
bust in the UK up to Feb 2022 is here - massive increase in the daily
standing charge to pay for bailing them out.

https://www.forbes.com/uk/advisor/energy/failed-uk-energy-suppliers-update/

Loads more have gone bust since including a couple that were \"Too big to
fail\" which resulted in a very expensive government bail out.

 

[alan_m]

On 10/04/2023 15:18, Ed P wrote:

On 4/10/2023 7:12 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
margin).

Well no it isnt. Gas is back to pre war prices. Bu electricity is now
about 10 times what it used to be.
Clearly it is linked to the cost of renewables,


Did your ass hurt when you pulled that number out of it?  Only changes
here were due to the natural gas spikes so some areas saw 10%.

The UK saw price rises of around 100% overnight, and with more to come.



--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

 

[alan_m]

On 10/04/2023 15:37, Martin Brown wrote:

> Our government views privatisation as the solution to everything!

The majority of the population regard politicians as incompetent. Why
would anyone want them to also run our utilities and railways?

In my local area many people blame the Tory council for recently
awarding bad private contracts. They don\'t seem to realise that it is
the Labour/Liberal partnership that is in control, and has been for many
years


--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Mon, 20 Mar 2023 18:04:45 -0000, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid..invalid> wrote:

On 18/03/2023 11:17, Sylvia Else wrote:
On 18-Mar-23 8:39 pm, Commander Kinsey wrote:
An electrician (who I don\'t believe) told me if there\'s too much power
on the grid, they use wind turbines as fans to absorb extra power. Is
this really true? Aren\'t there plenty of power stations they can just
turn down a bit? Take your foot off the gas so to speak?

I was also disturbed to hear from him it costs £700 to install smart
meters into each home. And in the UK that comes from green tax.
Shouldn\'t that tax be being spent on making more green energy,
building new wind farms?

Coal fired power stations cannot change their output rapidly,
Tell that to any operator of a steam locomotive. Of course they can.
All reliable generators except hydro take a bit of time to get steam up,
but there is energy in to boilers to cope with medium term peaks of a
few minutes.

and can be
willing to pay for the right to generate in preference to reducing output.

Rubbish. You mean wind generators who get paid not to produce

So the windfarm notion is not entirely implausible. However, wind
turbines use electronics to match the turbine output to the grid
frequency, and it seems unlikely that it\'s designed to operate in
reverse for the relatively rare occasions that that would be used.

It is not, That is why you add batteries to the grid.

Salt water batteries look promising.

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Sat, 25 Mar 2023 15:16:02 -0000, John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandsnipmetechnology.com> wrote:

On Sat, 25 Mar 2023 10:49:46 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On 25/03/2023 04:27, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 3/24/2023 11:35 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 24/03/2023 20:02, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 3/24/2023 1:58 PM, Vir Campestris wrote:
(I\'ve snipped a lot, I apologise if I messed up the attribution)

On 21/03/2023 16:49, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 20/03/2023 23:31, SteveW wrote:
On 20/03/2023 18:13, Scott Lurndal wrote:
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:

All reliable generators except hydro take a bit of time to get
steam up,
but there is energy in to boilers to cope with medium term peaks
of a
few minutes.

A given generator needs to spin at a specific frequency, and the
margins on
that frequency are very small.

Where multiple generators are fed from a common steam prime
mover, the startup
time for any one generator is on the order of 10\'s of minutes -
far too
long to respond to large changes in demand.
They arent starting from cold. They are running at maybe 80%.
Responses to steam throttles are instantanoous


Grid management predicts loads and they have steam up and turbines
spinning before the large increase in demand, with increased
output from already producing station, pumped storage, gas
turbine, diesel, etc. to fill rapid increases until other
producers can be brought online.

You missed steam out of that list.


Steam will come on almost instantly provided the boiler is nice and
hot.

It\'ll keep going for more than a few minutes too if the fire bed is
nice and hot. (I daresay that\'s easier with oil fired boilers!)

Keeping the boiler nice and hot just in case you need it uses a lot
of energy.

Of course, you can predict demand to some extent - but not completely.

Andy

How do you define \"almost instant\"
around one second to three seconds

and what is \"nice and hot\"?

What operating pressure do you need for the turbines?

\"Typical coal-based power plants operating at steam pressures of 170
bar and 570 °C run at efficiency of 35 to 38%, with state-of-the-art
fossil fuel plants at 46% efficiency.\"

As a licensed boiler
engineer in MA I think you are overstating a bit.

Dont be silly. steam engines and steam turbines used in ships do not
take a half an hour to go from cruise to flank speed.

Neither does a steam locomotive. The stored power is in the boiler. It
is on tpa more or less instantaneously.

And if its well lagged it wont take a \'lot of power\' to keep it hot,


Sure, but you are using a lot of fuel to keep it near operating
pressure. Locomotive? Sure, but most other uses it is not needed.

Why would keeping something hot require energy? All it needs is insulation.
MUCH easier in a fixed power station than a steam locomotive

If a power plant is to kick in fast, to back up a shortage in a
system, it has to be \"hot standby spinning reserve\", with the
generators rotating at synchronous speed and a trickle of steam to
keep net power at zero. That has momentum and can be ramped up in fast
as needed. NG boilers are much faster than coal.

Stack gas is hot, so keeping up boiler pressure is a constant loss
too.

Presumably a country-wide array of solar cells will fade in and out
slowly as weather changes, as long as one doesn\'t lose a big
transmission line. At least eclipses are predictable.

It took engineers over 100 years to evolve a reliable power system. A
few greenies with law degrees can destroy it lot faster.

Funny how our power grid gets more and more reliable. It didn\'t get worse as we started adding green power.

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Sat, 25 Mar 2023 15:26:09 -0000, John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandsnipmetechnology.com> wrote:

On Sat, 25 Mar 2023 14:18:28 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On 25/03/2023 12:55, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 3/25/2023 6:49 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 25/03/2023 04:27, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 3/24/2023 11:35 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 24/03/2023 20:02, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 3/24/2023 1:58 PM, Vir Campestris wrote:
(I\'ve snipped a lot, I apologise if I messed up the attribution)

On 21/03/2023 16:49, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 20/03/2023 23:31, SteveW wrote:
On 20/03/2023 18:13, Scott Lurndal wrote:
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:

All reliable generators except hydro take a bit of time to get
steam up,
but there is energy in to boilers to cope with medium term
peaks of a
few minutes.

A given generator needs to spin at a specific frequency, and
the margins on
that frequency are very small.

Where multiple generators are fed from a common steam prime
mover, the startup
time for any one generator is on the order of 10\'s of minutes -
far too
long to respond to large changes in demand.
They arent starting from cold. They are running at maybe 80%.
Responses to steam throttles are instantanoous


Grid management predicts loads and they have steam up and
turbines spinning before the large increase in demand, with
increased output from already producing station, pumped storage,
gas turbine, diesel, etc. to fill rapid increases until other
producers can be brought online.

You missed steam out of that list.


Steam will come on almost instantly provided the boiler is nice
and hot.

It\'ll keep going for more than a few minutes too if the fire bed
is nice and hot. (I daresay that\'s easier with oil fired boilers!)

Keeping the boiler nice and hot just in case you need it uses a
lot of energy.

Of course, you can predict demand to some extent - but not
completely.

Andy

How do you define \"almost instant\"
around one second to three seconds

and what is \"nice and hot\"?

What operating pressure do you need for the turbines?

\"Typical coal-based power plants operating at steam pressures of 170
bar and 570 °C run at efficiency of 35 to 38%, with state-of-the-art
fossil fuel plants at 46% efficiency.\"

As a licensed boiler
engineer in MA I think you are overstating a bit.

Dont be silly. steam engines and steam turbines used in ships do not
take a half an hour to go from cruise to flank speed.

Neither does a steam locomotive. The stored power is in the boiler.
It is on tpa more or less instantaneously.

And if its well lagged it wont take a \'lot of power\' to keep it hot,


Sure, but you are using a lot of fuel to keep it near operating
pressure. Locomotive? Sure, but most other uses it is not needed..

Why would keeping something hot require energy? All it needs is
insulation.
MUCH easier in a fixed power station than a steam locomotive


Amazing. Just amazing.

No, its physics.

It does not take energy to maintain stored heat

That\'s why we insulate houses.

You\'ll appreciate that insulation when there\'s no power to run your
heat pumps and you are running out of wood for the fireplace.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2022/09/07/world/europe/eu-logging-wood-pellets.html

https://www.developmentaid.org/news-stream/post/154437/deforestation-and-gas-crisis-in-europe-eo

https://www.wired.com/story/eu-forests-energy-crisis/

It\'s high time wood was banned for burning. It\'s a fucking choking stink from my neighbour\'s one. I\'ve reported him three times, he\'s had to raise and move the chimney at great expense. He doesn\'t talk to me any more. He\'s got a fucking gas boiler, why does he need to go back to the dark ages?

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Sat, 25 Mar 2023 15:38:36 -0000, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On 25/03/2023 15:26, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 25 Mar 2023 14:18:28 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On 25/03/2023 12:55, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 3/25/2023 6:49 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Why would keeping something hot require energy? All it needs is
insulation.
MUCH easier in a fixed power station than a steam locomotive

Amazing. Just amazing.

No, its physics.

It does not take energy to maintain stored heat

That\'s why we insulate houses.

You\'ll appreciate that insulation when there\'s no power to run your
heat pumps and you are running out of wood for the fireplace.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2022/09/07/world/europe/eu-logging-wood-pellets.html

https://www.developmentaid.org/news-stream/post/154437/deforestation-and-gas-crisis-in-europe-eo

https://www.wired.com/story/eu-forests-energy-crisis/

Yeah, thats te EU. Here we import a small fraction from the USA. Mainly
by product of their lumber industry.
The EU can go fuck itself. I am sick of the lies , corruption and
duplicity and the German card being played all the time,

The German card?

 

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Tuesday, April 11, 2023 at 3:38:07 PM UTC+10, Commander Kinsey wrote:

On Sat, 25 Mar 2023 15:38:36 -0000, The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid..invalid> wrote:
On 25/03/2023 15:26, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 25 Mar 2023 14:18:28 +0000, The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 25/03/2023 12:55, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 3/25/2023 6:49 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

<snip>

Yeah, thats te EU. Here we import a small fraction from the USA. Mainly by product of their lumber industry.
The EU can go fuck itself. I am sick of the lies , corruption and duplicity and the German card being played all the time,

The German card?

Germany still has a manufacturing industry and exports stuff. Thatcher made sure that the UK hasn\'t and doesn\'t export much at all. This meant that the Germans had lot more political and economic clout than the UK, and people like the Natural Philopsopher resented this, and thought that getting the UK out of the EU would change things for the better. In reality it made it harder for the UK to sell stuff to it\'s major trading partners, and made things worse. Right wing lunatics don\'t pay attention to details like that. They do go in for a lot of lies and duplicity, but the Natural Philosopher believes their lies.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Sat, 25 Mar 2023 20:56:36 -0000, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On 25/03/2023 19:28, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 25 Mar 2023 14:18:28 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


No, its physics.

It does not take energy to maintain stored heat

That\'s why we insulate houses.

Perhaps you want to review physics, particularly the thermodynamics part.

No, I don\'t need to do that. You do.

The earth is still

No, it rotates. Or maybe the whole universe rotates?

with a molten core. That\'s because it has a large
volume to surface ratio and some fairly good insulation, and nothing is
keeping it warm apart from a smidgeon of decay heat

Isn\'t there something to do with rotation and magnets and the core which makes more heat?

Maybe that\'s why we\'re slowing down.

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Sat, 25 Mar 2023 19:28:39 -0000, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

On Sat, 25 Mar 2023 14:18:28 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


No, its physics.

It does not take energy to maintain stored heat

That\'s why we insulate houses.

Perhaps you want to review physics, particularly the thermodynamics part.

WTF? If you insulate something, it loses very little heat. You put in what you lose, and it stays the same temperature.

 

[Joe]

On Tue, 11 Apr 2023 13:48:17 +0100
\"Commander Kinsey\" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

On Sat, 25 Mar 2023 20:56:36 -0000, The Natural Philosopher
tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On 25/03/2023 19:28, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 25 Mar 2023 14:18:28 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


No, its physics.

It does not take energy to maintain stored heat

That\'s why we insulate houses.

Perhaps you want to review physics, particularly the
thermodynamics part.

No, I don\'t need to do that. You do.

The earth is still

No, it rotates. Or maybe the whole universe rotates?

with a molten core. That\'s because it has a large
volume to surface ratio and some fairly good insulation, and
nothing is keeping it warm apart from a smidgeon of decay heat

Isn\'t there something to do with rotation and magnets and the core
which makes more heat?

Maybe that\'s why we\'re slowing down.

I understood this was due to tidal friction, which happens even without
loose water. It is unlikely that the Moon, however it was acquired,
arrived with no rotation relative to the Earth.

Has anyone considered whether the energy being absorbed from the wind
by millions of turbines around the world is affecting the global
climate? Now that would be a good laugh.

--
Joe

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Sat, 25 Mar 2023 23:08:00 -0000, Ed Pawlowski <esp@snet.xxx> wrote:

On 3/25/2023 4:59 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 25/03/2023 19:45, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 3/25/2023 11:41 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 25/03/2023 15:34, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 3/25/2023 10:18 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 25/03/2023 12:55, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 3/25/2023 6:49 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 25/03/2023 04:27, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 3/24/2023 11:35 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 24/03/2023 20:02, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 3/24/2023 1:58 PM, Vir Campestris wrote:
(I\'ve snipped a lot, I apologise if I messed up the attribution)

On 21/03/2023 16:49, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 20/03/2023 23:31, SteveW wrote:
On 20/03/2023 18:13, Scott Lurndal wrote:
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:

All reliable generators except hydro take a bit of time
to get steam up,
but there is energy in to boilers to cope with medium
term peaks of a
few minutes.

A given generator needs to spin at a specific frequency,
and the margins on
that frequency are very small.

Where multiple generators are fed from a common steam
prime mover, the startup
time for any one generator is on the order of 10\'s of
minutes - far too
long to respond to large changes in demand.
They arent starting from cold. They are running at maybe
80%. Responses to steam throttles are instantanoous


Grid management predicts loads and they have steam up and
turbines spinning before the large increase in demand, with
increased output from already producing station, pumped
storage, gas turbine, diesel, etc. to fill rapid increases
until other producers can be brought online.

You missed steam out of that list.


Steam will come on almost instantly provided the boiler is
nice and hot.

It\'ll keep going for more than a few minutes too if the fire
bed is nice and hot. (I daresay that\'s easier with oil fired
boilers!)

Keeping the boiler nice and hot just in case you need it uses
a lot of energy.

Of course, you can predict demand to some extent - but not
completely.

Andy

How do you define \"almost instant\"
around one second to three seconds

and what is \"nice and hot\"?

What operating pressure do you need for the turbines?

\"Typical coal-based power plants operating at steam pressures
of 170 bar and 570 °C run at efficiency of 35 to 38%, with
state-of-the-art fossil fuel plants at 46% efficiency.\"

As a licensed boiler
engineer in MA I think you are overstating a bit.

Dont be silly. steam engines and steam turbines used in ships
do not take a half an hour to go from cruise to flank speed.

Neither does a steam locomotive. The stored power is in the
boiler. It is on tpa more or less instantaneously.

And if its well lagged it wont take a \'lot of power\' to keep it
hot,


Sure, but you are using a lot of fuel to keep it near operating
pressure. Locomotive? Sure, but most other uses it is not needed.

Why would keeping something hot require energy? All it needs is
insulation.
MUCH easier in a fixed power station than a steam locomotive


Amazing. Just amazing.

No, its physics.

It does not take energy to maintain stored heat

That\'s why we insulate houses.


But based on what you are saying, our insulated house would not need
a heating/cooling system. Bring it to temperature and it will hold
forever.

Have you actually run boilers? How much insulation has to be on them?
Give me facts, not theory. Tell me about the power plants you were in.

I built a house. I know all about heat calculations.
How much you insulate depends on your fuel costs and the rate of
interest. But that sort of cost benefit analysis seems beyond you.


My hot water boiler feeds an insulated tank. It stays hot all day
without need to add heat.



Yes, I had the same and works great in the house. However, I also ran
a steam plant with a couple of boilers. It does not work the way you
think it does. I\'ve also been in large power plants running steam
boilers for electricity.

Get back to me when you figure how to maintain 200psi with just some
insulation.

No you haven\'t. maintaining 200 psi is easy with out any insulation .
any tractor tyre can do it.

You have no idea about the underlying physics of anything. You just know
what your limited experience made you *think* was the case.


So what is the temperature range of that tractor tyre? What is the
pressure difference as temperature changes? They do lose pressure as
the temperature drops, physics at work.

The temperature doesn\'t drop if it\'s well insulated.

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Tue, 28 Mar 2023 12:14:28 +0100, Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On 25/03/2023 15:34, Ed Pawlowski wrote:


But based on what you are saying, our insulated house would not need a
heating/cooling system. Bring it to temperature and it will hold forever.

Have you actually run boilers? How much insulation has to be on them?
Give me facts, not theory. Tell me about the power plants you were in.

I\'m with Ed on this subthread.

I don\'t have his experience with boilers, but I do have a wood burning
stove in my house.

Polluting cunt.

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Sun, 02 Apr 2023 15:53:37 +0100, Andrew <Andrew97d@btinternet.com> wrote:

On 25/03/2023 15:34, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 3/25/2023 10:18 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 25/03/2023 12:55, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 3/25/2023 6:49 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 25/03/2023 04:27, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 3/24/2023 11:35 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 24/03/2023 20:02, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 3/24/2023 1:58 PM, Vir Campestris wrote:
(I\'ve snipped a lot, I apologise if I messed up the attribution)

On 21/03/2023 16:49, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 20/03/2023 23:31, SteveW wrote:
On 20/03/2023 18:13, Scott Lurndal wrote:
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:

All reliable generators except hydro take a bit of time to
get steam up,
but there is energy in to boilers to cope with medium term
peaks of a
few minutes.

A given generator needs to spin at a specific frequency, and
the margins on
that frequency are very small.

Where multiple generators are fed from a common steam prime
mover, the startup
time for any one generator is on the order of 10\'s of minutes
- far too
long to respond to large changes in demand.
They arent starting from cold. They are running at maybe 80%.
Responses to steam throttles are instantanoous


Grid management predicts loads and they have steam up and
turbines spinning before the large increase in demand, with
increased output from already producing station, pumped
storage, gas turbine, diesel, etc. to fill rapid increases
until other producers can be brought online.

You missed steam out of that list.


Steam will come on almost instantly provided the boiler is nice
and hot.

It\'ll keep going for more than a few minutes too if the fire bed
is nice and hot. (I daresay that\'s easier with oil fired boilers!)

Keeping the boiler nice and hot just in case you need it uses a
lot of energy.

Of course, you can predict demand to some extent - but not
completely.

Andy

How do you define \"almost instant\"
around one second to three seconds

and what is \"nice and hot\"?

What operating pressure do you need for the turbines?

\"Typical coal-based power plants operating at steam pressures of
170 bar and 570 °C run at efficiency of 35 to 38%, with
state-of-the-art fossil fuel plants at 46% efficiency.\"

As a licensed boiler
engineer in MA I think you are overstating a bit.

Dont be silly. steam engines and steam turbines used in ships do
not take a half an hour to go from cruise to flank speed.

Neither does a steam locomotive. The stored power is in the
boiler. It is on tpa more or less instantaneously.

And if its well lagged it wont take a \'lot of power\' to keep it hot,


Sure, but you are using a lot of fuel to keep it near operating
pressure. Locomotive? Sure, but most other uses it is not needed.

Why would keeping something hot require energy? All it needs is
insulation.
MUCH easier in a fixed power station than a steam locomotive


Amazing. Just amazing.

No, its physics.

It does not take energy to maintain stored heat

That\'s why we insulate houses.


But based on what you are saying, our insulated house would not need a
heating/cooling system. Bring it to temperature and it will hold forever.


https://www.granddesigns.tv/bletchley

He\'s an idiot, he\'s trying to keep the heat for 6 months. The boilers under discussion need to keep hot only for hours.

 

[Peeler]

On Tue, 11 Apr 2023 14:39:58 +0100, Joe, another brain dead, troll-feeding
senile ASSHOLE, blathered:

I understood this was due to tidal friction, which happens even without
loose water. It is unlikely that the Moon, however it was acquired,
arrived with no rotation relative to the Earth.

Has anyone considered whether the energy being absorbed from the wind
by millions of turbines around the world is affecting the global
climate? Now that would be a good laugh.

Have you considered that you are feeding the dumbest troll (the one with a
self-professed IQ of 140! LOL), attention whore around, you troll-feeding
senile SHITHEAD?

 

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Tuesday, April 11, 2023 at 11:53:39 PM UTC+10, Commander Kinsey wrote:

On Sat, 25 Mar 2023 23:08:00 -0000, Ed Pawlowski <e...@snet.xxx> wrote:
On 3/25/2023 4:59 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 25/03/2023 19:45, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 3/25/2023 11:41 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 25/03/2023 15:34, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 3/25/2023 10:18 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 25/03/2023 12:55, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 3/25/2023 6:49 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 25/03/2023 04:27, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 3/24/2023 11:35 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 24/03/2023 20:02, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 3/24/2023 1:58 PM, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 21/03/2023 16:49, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 20/03/2023 23:31, SteveW wrote:
On 20/03/2023 18:13, Scott Lurndal wrote:
The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> writes:

<snip>

> >>>> My hot water boiler feeds an insulated tank. It stays hot all day without need to add heat.

It cools off slowly. When I measured mine, it had thermal time constant of 36 hours, which is to say that if it was 35C above ambient when I turned off the boiler it would be only 12.9C above ambient after 36 hours.

Yes, I had the same and works great in the house. However, I also ran
a steam plant with a couple of boilers. It does not work the way you
think it does. I\'ve also been in large power plants running steam
boilers for electricity.

Get back to me when you figure how to maintain 200psi with just some insulation.

No you haven\'t. maintaining 200 psi is easy with out any insulation . any tractor tyre can do it.

A steam boiler has got to stay hot enough that the vapour pressure of water is 200 psi. It\'s nothing like a tractor tyre.

You have no idea about the underlying physics of anything. You just know what your limited experience made you *think* was the case.

So what is the temperature range of that tractor tyre? What is the pressure difference as temperature changes? They do lose pressure as the temperature drops, physics at work.

Gas pressure is proportional to absolute temperature. The vapour pressure above liquid water is an exponential function of absolute temperature

> The temperature doesn\'t drop if it\'s well insulated.

It wouldn\'t drop at all if it were perfectly insulated. Real insulation isn\'t perfect and real temperatures drops slowly, but they do drop.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney