Mains power voltage drop to reduce usage?...

[John Larkin]

On Mon, 14 Nov 2022 12:29:14 +0000, Max Demian
<max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote:

On 14/11/2022 00:27, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Thu, 10 Nov 2022 12:07:43 -0000, SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk
wrote:
On 09/11/2022 00:14, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 08 Nov 2022 12:35:03 -0000, Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com
wrote:
On 08/11/2022 01:22, Commander Kinsey wrote:

Even resistive heating is better than a furnace.  Except for gas being
cheaper for some reason.

I find it hard to believe that you don\'t realise that this is due to
the
Second Law of Thermodynamics.

I know why it happens, just not why people use a furnace with gas.  It\'s
a waste.

The highest efficiency gas fired power station is aroung 62% efficient.
Then there are 5% transmission losses.

A condensing gas boiler is over 90% efficient.

Then why don\'t they make the power station like the boiler?

Because of the Second Law of Thermodynamics, like I said. The turbines
in power stations are heat engines. Hot gas in one end; cooler gas out.
The maximum efficiency is the temperature difference between the hot and
the cold gases expressed as a percentage of the hot gas temperature,
using an absolute temperature scale like Kelvin.

Consider a \"100% efficient\" gas or electric heater. A very hot element
warms room air.

But one could add a thermoelectric generator between the heat source
and the room air and get just as much hot air, but free electricity
too! Use that to make more heat.

 

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 11/11/2022 13:10, Carlos E.R. wrote:

On 2022-11-11 13:40, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 11/11/2022 11:52, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
No one cares about bacteria in their central heating primary circuit.

Unless the level gets high enough to clog things up.

But in the hot water circuit they can be really bad news.

And in the primary there can be leaks, and happen in your kids bedroom.

I think anyone who doesn\'t fix a primary leak will soon have a
depressurised inoperative boiler

More bacteria up your childrens\' bottoms....

--
\"I am inclined to tell the truth and dislike people who lie consistently.
This makes me unfit for the company of people of a Left persuasion, and
all women\"

 

[John Larkin]

On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 14:51:23 -0000, \"Commander Kinsey\"
<CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

On Thu, 10 Nov 2022 10:11:53 -0000, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2022-11-10 02:39, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Wed, 09 Nov 2022 12:01:19 -0000, Carlos E.R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:


As I said, this is a modern country. Basically the whole of Spain is
using smart meters, changed maybe ten years ago. And I saw nothing in
media about them being faulty.

They\'re (form your point of view) pointless, and a possible source of
spying and control. Why would you be happy with this? They can turn
off your power at will!

Well, as I said, I no longer have to bother to open the door for the
meter man.

You don\'t anyway, what was he going to do if you were out?

Anyway, my meter is read about once every 5 years.

Water used to be unmetered at our cabin, but then they installed smart
meters. I got an email from TDPUD that they suspected a leak, based on
the usage pattern. They sent me graphs and we saw a constant low-level
flow when nobody was there. It was a leaking shutoff+drain valve.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/lnq4lzds3ku5nko/Truckee_Leak.jpg?raw=1

The big plateau was the leak.

Realtime metering catches stuff like that.

 

[NY]

\"Commander Kinsey\" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in message
newsp.1vg2ddscmvhs6z@ryzen.home...

CO2 tends to cause increased respiration because the body\'s natural
reaction
is to try to breathe more in the hope of getting enough O2. It\'s why pure
O2
(or O2+N2 with no CO2) in scuba breathing apparatus is a bad thing: the
body
needs *some* CO2 to stimulate breathing.

I disagree. The CO2 appears from your activity. You will then be
stimulated to breathe as soon as you\'ve done some work.

And I\'m a scuba diver.

I\'m sure it does happen once you know about the symptom and know to start
moving around and exercising to produce CO2. But when it first happens you
tend to panic. I\'ve never scuba dived or used any other respirator/tank air
supply for real, but I had chance to be tested with reduced CO2 air (under
medical supervision!) as part of a demo of how the body responds. First
comes a bit of a headache and a desire to breathe more deeply and more
often, then a panicky \"I cant breathe\" feeling.

To much CO2 will lead to
unconsciousness but as I understand it, it is not poisonous as such, so a
few breaths of normal air is enough to revive a person.

Apparently people have died in their sleep from CO2 suddenly coming from a
nearby lake. I call bullshit. I\'ve woken up due to too much CO2, when
two of us slept in a car. I awoke breathing faster than normal, opened
the door for a few minutes, then went back to sleep.

Yes I\'d also have expected that the body would try to wake you up, rather
than \"letting\" you just die of oxygen deprivation.

CO is much more
dangerous than CO2 because removal of CO and breathing of normal O2 will
not
immediately make the haem give up the CO that is bound to it.

My parents had a scare about 20 years ago. They have a holiday cottage in
Yorkshire which is heated partly by a coke/wood stove. Some friends were
staying there and one of them woke up in the night feeling dizzy and
sick.
Luckily she was a nurse and recognised CO poisoning so she got everyone
out
and opened the windows. The stove flue had got partly blocked by a bird\'s
nest during the months that no-one was lighting fires. My parents felt
very
guilty and bought several CO detectors. They have also had a cowl fitted
which prevents birds getting in and nesting.

This is the 21st century, why are people still using such things? The
arsehole living behind me has a wood burning stove. He used to burn any
old wood from the skip in it. Until a few complaints to the council from
me caused them to tell him off, then make him raise the chimney, then move
the chimney to the other side of the house. Sweet revenge for complaining
about my parrot noise!

The house is a 200-year-old cottage. When we bought it, it only had an open
fire - and very rusty electric storage heaters. To begin with, we used a
bottled-gas fire, then got a wood/coke burning stove, and then had a
bottled-gas boiler and radiator central heating. The CH is more expensive to
run than burning wood or coke, so we try to manage with the stove as much as
possible, especially to provide long-term heating in the loving room for the
evening, using the CH just to boost the temp for when we get up or if we are
in a room other than the living room.

For some reason, my parents opted for propane rather than oil for
heating/hot water back in the 1980s, and when the original gas boiler
eventually needed replacing, they opted for another gas one rather than
switching to oil even though they knew how expensive gas was. Now my sister
is taking over the cottage (my parents are too elderly to manage the journey
up there and to cope with the change from \"normality\") I wonder if they will
decide to switch to oil when the present gas boiler eventually needs
replacing.

One of the cottages near ours only has a coal fire for heating: no central
heating at all. They had a chimney fire and their chimney was condemned by
the fire brigade until it had been swept and repaired, so they had no
heating (apart from a loaned paraffin heater) until \"the estate\" sorted it
out - which they did very quickly, given the lack of alternative heating.

In our present house we have normal gas central heating, but there is a
large stove in which we burn wood and peat to heat that part of the house so
we can reduce the gas CH heating needed. Although we have to buy peat bricks
and sawdust bricks, we\'ve not needed to buy any logs for several years
because we are still using up tree branches from when we pruned trees, and
just as we were thinking that we\'d have no wood for the year after next, a
big tree blew down in a gale this summer so it will provide us with lots of
firewood - which reminds me, I need to cut some of the longer lengths into
stove-sized logs and work out how to split them diametrically. A proper
*sharp* axe is needed: the present one just embeds itself firmly in the log
and doesn\'t actually split the wood at all. Time to find someone with a
grinder to sharpen the axe! If we can heat the house \"for free\" with our
own wood, why pay for extra gas for the CH?

 

[Peter]

On 11/13/2022 9:23 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:

On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 18:24:47 -0000, Peter
HapilyRetired@fakeaddress.com> wrote:

On 11/12/2022 11:53 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 19:43:02 -0000, Peter
HapilyRetired@fakeaddress.com> wrote:

Actually, the symptoms of CO poisoning is highly dependent on the
concentration of CO in the inhaled air.  Relatively low but dangerous
concentrations will usually produce a headache and/or nausea as one of
the first symptoms.  But extremely high levels can produce loss of
consciousness as the first symptom.

So does being clouted over the head with an axe, but you tend to
avoid it.

There are well documented cases of inadvertent exposure to extremely
high concentrations of CO that caused serious illness and/or death.  Two
examples are (1) a malfunctioning Zamboni at an ice rink

ROTFPMSL!  No way that could fill that huge space with much CO.

No? What about:

https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/carbon-monoxide-leak-delaware-ice-rink-close/38420/

and

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2014/12/15/faulty-ice-resurfacing-machine-blamed-for-sickening-dozens-at-minor-league-game-with-carbon-monoxide/

and

https://oem.bmj.com/content/59/4/224

 

[NY]

\"Peter\" <HapilyRetired@fakeaddress.com> wrote in message
news:tkllon$1plh$1@gioia.aioe.org...

On 11/11/2022 8:43 AM, NY wrote:

It\'s why pure O2 (or O2+N2 with no CO2) in scuba breathing apparatus is a
bad thing: the body needs *some* CO2 to stimulate breathing.

Speaking as someone who in the early 1980s became a fully qualified Navy
open water deep sea diver and Navy diving medical officer who trained on
multiple devices using multiple gas mixtures, CO2 was never part of any of
the gas mixtures. I\'m talking about normal scuba (compressed air) as well
as special diving mixes that combine various ratios of pure oxygen and/or
pure nitrogen and/or pure helium. Normal metabolism combined with the
physiologic stress of diving plus the work of breathing gases under
pressures greater than 1 atmosphere produces all the CO2 the brain needs
to stimulate the breathing reflex.

If the exhaled air is re-breathed (combined with new air from the cylinders)
then I can imagine that the amount of CO2 that the body produces is
sufficient. The danger comes if all the exhaled air is \"lost\" and not
blended with the tank air: then you need to make sure that the tank air has
CO2 in it - which atmospheric air will do but a mixture from oxygen and
nitrogen tanks will not.

 

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 14/11/2022 15:32, John Larkin wrote:

Consider a \"100% efficient\" gas or electric heater. A very hot element
warms room air.

But one could add a thermoelectric generator between the heat source
and the room air and get just as much hot air, but free electricity
too! Use that to make more heat.

No, you couldnt.

The energy from the electricity would subtract from the heat output of
the device.
Unless the electricity all ends up as heat, anything else - like
mechanical power - has to be exchanged for heat.

--
\"The great thing about Glasgow is that if there\'s a nuclear attack it\'ll
look exactly the same afterwards.\"

Billy Connolly

 

[John Larkin]

On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 11:10:40 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
<tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On 10/11/2022 21:58, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 09/11/2022 12:08, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I don\'t have house heating. I heat a room at a time using a butane stove.

Carlos, I hope you have a CO detector? It doesn\'t take a lot to go wrong
with a portable stove to produce poison gas.

Andy


My late mother relates a story from presumably the 1920s, in which she
and her sister and young brother were playing in a room with a paraffin
heater.
In the sort of trust in adults displayed by BBC audiences,, the ideas
that she couldn\'t see in front of her for black smoke, and was coughing,
didn\'t seem to create any alarm whatsoever until her father rushed in
and opened all the windows and dragged the children out.

When I was a kid most everyone had unvented gas heaters in our houses,
which burned clean. Fortunately, the houses were usually very leaky.
If the CO2 level got high, it would feel stuffy and we\'d turn down the
heat or lift a window for fresh air.

The hazard would be for the CO2 level to get so high that the gas
flames starved and started making CO. That was rare.

 

[John Larkin]

On Mon, 14 Nov 2022 16:25:24 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
<tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On 14/11/2022 15:32, John Larkin wrote:
Consider a \"100% efficient\" gas or electric heater. A very hot element
warms room air.

But one could add a thermoelectric generator between the heat source
and the room air and get just as much hot air, but free electricity
too! Use that to make more heat.


No, you couldnt.

The energy from the electricity would subtract from the heat output of
the device.

That is equivalent to saying that heat pumps can\'t work.

It\'s an impedance matching problem. It\'s inefficient to use a 1900C
gas flame to directly heat air to 25C.

 

[John Larkin]

On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 12:42:26 +0100, \"Carlos E.R.\"
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2022-11-11 12:12, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Thu, 10 Nov 2022 21:58:57 -0000, Vir Campestris
vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On 09/11/2022 12:08, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I don\'t have house heating. I heat a room at a time using a butane
stove.

Carlos, I hope you have a CO detector? It doesn\'t take a lot to go wrong
with a portable stove to produce poison gas.

I have one in my head, it\'s called getting a headache.  I don\'t waste
money on safety shit.

That\'s for CO2, fumes, and lack of O2, not abundance of CO.

The first symptom for CO is usually getting dead.

 

[John Larkin]

On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 13:43:53 -0000, \"NY\" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:

\"Carlos E.R.\" <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote in message
news:22p14j-2u9.ln1@Telcontar.valinor...
On 2022-11-11 12:12, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Thu, 10 Nov 2022 21:58:57 -0000, Vir Campestris
vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On 09/11/2022 12:08, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I don\'t have house heating. I heat a room at a time using a butane
stove.

Carlos, I hope you have a CO detector? It doesn\'t take a lot to go wrong
with a portable stove to produce poison gas.

I have one in my head, it\'s called getting a headache. I don\'t waste
money on safety shit.

That\'s for CO2, fumes, and lack of O2, not abundance of CO.

CO will produce headache, nausea/vomiting and unconsciousness. Check for the
gums, fingernails and corners of eyes going cherry-red: that is caused by
carboxyhaemoglobin, in which the haemoglobin in the blood binds
preferentially with the CO, instead of the O2 which it is supposed to bind
with. Carb-haem is very bright red: much more so than with normal blood,
even oxygenated blood straight from the lungs before it has gone to the
organs/muscles.

CO2 tends to cause increased respiration because the body\'s natural reaction
is to try to breathe more in the hope of getting enough O2. It\'s why pure O2
(or O2+N2 with no CO2) in scuba breathing apparatus is a bad thing: the body
needs *some* CO2 to stimulate breathing. To much CO2 will lead to
unconsciousness but as I understand it, it is not poisonous as such, so a
few breaths of normal air is enough to revive a person. CO is much more
dangerous than CO2 because removal of CO and breathing of normal O2 will not
immediately make the haem give up the CO that is bound to it.


My parents had a scare about 20 years ago. They have a holiday cottage in
Yorkshire which is heated partly by a coke/wood stove. Some friends were
staying there and one of them woke up in the night feeling dizzy and sick.
Luckily she was a nurse and recognised CO poisoning so she got everyone out
and opened the windows. The stove flue had got partly blocked by a bird\'s
nest during the months that no-one was lighting fires. My parents felt very
guilty and bought several CO detectors. They have also had a cowl fitted
which prevents birds getting in and nesting.

We have a cabin in the mountains. These cabins are often unused for
weeks or months at a stretch.

One nearby cabin was unused for a while and two guys came up to ski.
The gas water heater had filled the place with CO and there were no CO
detectors. Both guys died.

We had a squirrel decide to climb up a nice warm vent pipe and take up
residence inside a clothes dryer.

 

[Peeler]

On Mon, 14 Nov 2022 07:49:59 -0800, John Larkin, another mentally deficient,
troll-feeding, senile ASSHOLE, blathered:


> Realtime metering catches stuff like that.

You useless troll-feeding senile ASSHOLE didn\'t even yet catch that you are
getting trolled by one of the dumbest, PROVEN clinically insane trolls that
ever infested these groups!

 

[Lasse Langwadt Christensen]

fredag den 11. november 2022 kl. 16.02.48 UTC+1 skrev John Larkin:

On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 12:42:26 +0100, \"Carlos E.R.\"
robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2022-11-11 12:12, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Thu, 10 Nov 2022 21:58:57 -0000, Vir Campestris
vir.cam...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On 09/11/2022 12:08, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I don\'t have house heating. I heat a room at a time using a butane
stove.

Carlos, I hope you have a CO detector? It doesn\'t take a lot to go wrong
with a portable stove to produce poison gas.

I have one in my head, it\'s called getting a headache. I don\'t waste
money on safety shit.

That\'s for CO2, fumes, and lack of O2, not abundance of CO.
The first symptom for CO is usually getting dead.

falling a sleep for ever ....

 

[Peeler]

On Mon, 14 Nov 2022 11:02:38 -0500, Peter, another brain dead troll-feeding
senile shithead, babbled:

> No? What about:

What about you two mentally deficient morons and bullshit artists keeping
your shit out of these ngs?

 

[Peeler]

On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 11:19:09 +0000, Max Dumb, the REAL dumb, notorious,
troll-feeding senile idiot, blathered again:

Domestic Hot Water. Heat pumps don\'t heat it to a very high temperature.
Probably enough for a bath or shower, but some are afraid of legionella
and what not. I don\'t know how much danger there is in domestic systems.

These useless senile troll-feeding assholes REFUSE to see that they are
getting trolled, post after post! Why don\'t these useless senile shitheads
just croak and get buried finally?

 

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 14/11/2022 16:51, John Larkin wrote:

On Mon, 14 Nov 2022 16:25:24 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On 14/11/2022 15:32, John Larkin wrote:
Consider a \"100% efficient\" gas or electric heater. A very hot element
warms room air.

But one could add a thermoelectric generator between the heat source
and the room air and get just as much hot air, but free electricity
too! Use that to make more heat.


No, you couldnt.

The energy from the electricity would subtract from the heat output of
the device.

That is equivalent to saying that heat pumps can\'t work.

No it isnt.

It\'s an impedance matching problem. It\'s inefficient to use a 1900C
gas flame to directly heat air to 25C.

No, it isnt

It\'s just an exercise in design

--
Outside of a dog, a book is a man\'s best friend. Inside of a dog it\'s
too dark to read.

Groucho Marx

 

[Peeler]

On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 12:42:26 +0100, cretinous Carlos E.R., another brain
dead troll-feeding senile ASSHOLE, blathered


> That\'s for CO2, fumes, and lack of O2, not abundance of CO.

Don\'t you forget the shit that keeps constantly fomenting in your sick old
head, you dumb spick!

 

[Peeler]

On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 13:33:16 +0100, cretinous Carlos E.R., another brain
dead troll-feeding senile ASSHOLE, blathered

Wrong.  A key indicator of a badly burning boiler is a headache.

Yes, it does, because of the CO2 and fumes it generates. Even if it is
burning correctly.

BOTH of you blithering cretins are like a headache! And just as useless,
idiotic and best to get rid of!

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Wed, 09 Nov 2022 07:06:03 -0000, Jasen Betts <usenet@revmaps.no-ip.org> wrote:

On 2022-11-09, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
On Tue, 08 Nov 2022 15:38:55 -0000, Martin Brown <\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

On 08/11/2022 15:07, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 8 Nov 2022 14:54:16 +0000, Martin Brown
\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

On 08/11/2022 14:16, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 8 Nov 2022 09:24:41 +0000, Martin Brown
\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

On 08/11/2022 05:30, John Larkin wrote:

Gas wells feeding pipelines to users doesn\'t need a lot of storage.

UK has been a net importer of overseas gas since 2004! We don\'t import
very much from Russia <4% but we get a hell of a lot from Norway.

https://oeuk.org.uk/norway-is-now-uks-primary-gas-supplier-and-declining-north-sea-output-means-uk-faces-importing-80-of-its-gas-and-oil-within-a-decade-warns-oeuk-report/

We absolutely *DO* need bulk storage - especially since so much of our
winter electricity is generated from burning the stuff! A majority of UK
homes are also heated by gas boilers so it is a double whammy.

The days of dirt cheap and plentiful North Sea gas are long gone.

Frack.

UK geology is sufficiently complicated that even the fracking experts
think it is a lost cause (and that is before the Nimby\'s get started).

https://www.nationalworld.com/news/environment/cuadrilla-founder-fracking-uk-tory-mps-3852533

There are not many places in the UK where fracking will work and many of
them are right in the middle of heavily populated northern cities.

www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2015/07/02/why-britain-doesnt-frack

One Tory politician famously said in parliament that we (that is the UK)
should \"Frack the desolate North\". s/ra/u an you won\'t be too far out.

What language are you speaking in that last sentence?

\"ed\"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ed_(text_editor)
http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/writing-style.html
(find s/ on that page)

Yikes, I\'ve used a GUI since 1991.

 

[Peeler]

On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 14:28:26 -0000, NY, the really endlessly blathering,
notorious, troll-feeding, senile asshole, blathered, yet again:


<FLUSH the usual lengthy senile crap unread>

...firewood - which reminds me, I need to cut some of the longer lengths into
stove-sized logs and work out how to split them diametrically. A proper
*sharp* axe is needed: the present one just embeds itself firmly in the log
and doesn\'t actually split the wood at all. Time to find someone with a
grinder to sharpen the axe! If we can heat the house \"for free\" with our
own wood, why pay for extra gas for the CH?

Yet MORE of your always endless senile crap, you endlessly blathering
troll-feeding senile asshole? Nobody wanting to talk to you in RL? LOL