Mains power voltage drop to reduce usage?...

[Rod Speed]

On Sun, 13 Nov 2022 05:24:47 +1100, Peter <HapilyRetired@fakeaddress.com>
wrote:

On 11/12/2022 11:53 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 19:43:02 -0000, Peter
HapilyRetired@fakeaddress.com> wrote:



Actually, the symptoms of CO poisoning is highly dependent on the
concentration of CO in the inhaled air. Relatively low but dangerous
concentrations will usually produce a headache and/or nausea as one of
the first symptoms. But extremely high levels can produce loss of
consciousness as the first symptom.
So does being clouted over the head with an axe, but you tend to avoid
it.

There are well documented cases of inadvertent exposure to extremely
high concentrations of CO that caused serious illness and/or death. Two
examples are (1) a malfunctioning Zamboni at an ice rink and (2) an
improperly recently serviced or installed gas appliance (dryer, water
heater, kitchen stove or oven, or furnace) in the absence of a
functional CO detector. Before you go to a hockey game or a figure
skating exhibition or competition

He never does anything lilke that.

how do you determine that the facility has properly maintained their
Zamboni and has very recently tested their CO detector? If you are a
dinner guest in someone\'s home,

He never is, no one is actually silly enough to ever invite him.

do you always inquire upon arrival whether or not they had a gas
appliance installed or serviced that same day and have a recently tested
CO detector? If not, what\'s your strategy for avoiding those
potentially life-threatening environments?

He gets real radical and takes his chances.

 

[John Larkin]

On Mon, 14 Nov 2022 17:00:15 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
<tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On 14/11/2022 16:51, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 14 Nov 2022 16:25:24 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On 14/11/2022 15:32, John Larkin wrote:
Consider a \"100% efficient\" gas or electric heater. A very hot element
warms room air.

But one could add a thermoelectric generator between the heat source
and the room air and get just as much hot air, but free electricity
too! Use that to make more heat.


No, you couldnt.

The energy from the electricity would subtract from the heat output of
the device.

That is equivalent to saying that heat pumps can\'t work.

No it isnt.

It\'s an impedance matching problem. It\'s inefficient to use a 1900C
gas flame to directly heat air to 25C.

No, it isnt

California has mandated that future water heaters must be heat pumps.

A heat pump can deliver a given amount of space heating or hot water
at about 1/3 the cost of direct gas or resistive electric heating.

Suppose you have 120 VAC and want to charge a 24 volt battery. You
could rectify and filter to 150 VDC, and connect that to the battery
through a resistor. Or you could use a transformer or a switching
regulator. Your engineering decision.

It\'s just an exercise in design

Yes. Try it. You can Spice a thermal system assuming

ELECTRICAL THERMAL

1 amp 1 watt
1 farad 1 gram aluminum
1 volt 1 degree C
1 second 1 second
1 ohm 1 K/watt

which is accurate to about 10%.

Note that current is not power, as integrated heat flow is not energy.

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Wed, 09 Nov 2022 08:29:06 -0000, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On 08/11/2022 20:56, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2022-11-08 15:54, Martin Brown wrote:
On 08/11/2022 14:16, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 8 Nov 2022 09:24:41 +0000, Martin Brown
\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> wrote:


We absolutely *DO* need bulk storage - especially since so much of our
winter electricity is generated from burning the stuff! A majority of
UK homes are also heated by gas boilers so it is a double whammy.

The days of dirt cheap and plentiful North Sea gas are long gone.

What happened to it, is it spent already?

Yes.

No. https://www.cityam.com/north-sea-industry-set-to-be-dominated-by-major-oil-and-gas-players/

 

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 11/11/2022 15:02, John Larkin wrote:

On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 12:42:26 +0100, \"Carlos E.R.\"
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2022-11-11 12:12, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Thu, 10 Nov 2022 21:58:57 -0000, Vir Campestris
vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On 09/11/2022 12:08, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I don\'t have house heating. I heat a room at a time using a butane
stove.

Carlos, I hope you have a CO detector? It doesn\'t take a lot to go wrong
with a portable stove to produce poison gas.

I have one in my head, it\'s called getting a headache.  I don\'t waste
money on safety shit.

That\'s for CO2, fumes, and lack of O2, not abundance of CO.

The first symptom for CO is usually getting dead.

IME its a splitting headache and drowsiness.

--
“it should be clear by now to everyone that activist environmentalism
(or environmental activism) is becoming a general ideology about humans,
about their freedom, about the relationship between the individual and
the state, and about the manipulation of people under the guise of a
\'noble\' idea. It is not an honest pursuit of \'sustainable development,\'
a matter of elementary environmental protection, or a search for
rational mechanisms designed to achieve a healthy environment. Yet
things do occur that make you shake your head and remind yourself that
you live neither in Joseph Stalin’s Communist era, nor in the Orwellian
utopia of 1984.”

Vaclav Klaus

 

[whit3rd]

On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 7:33:07 AM UTC-8, John Larkin wrote:

Consider a \"100% efficient\" gas or electric heater. A very hot element
warms room air.

But one could add a thermoelectric generator between the heat source
and the room air and get just as much hot air, but free electricity
too! Use that to make more heat.

A thermoelectric generator is just another heat engine, it COOLS the hot end
and warms the cold one. It\'ll never \'make more heat\' because it\'s a heatpump cooler
in its primary function.

 

[Lasse Langwadt Christensen]

mandag den 14. november 2022 kl. 17.51.21 UTC+1 skrev John Larkin:

On Mon, 14 Nov 2022 16:25:24 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On 14/11/2022 15:32, John Larkin wrote:
Consider a \"100% efficient\" gas or electric heater. A very hot element
warms room air.

But one could add a thermoelectric generator between the heat source
and the room air and get just as much hot air, but free electricity
too! Use that to make more heat.


No, you couldnt.

The energy from the electricity would subtract from the heat output of
the device.
That is equivalent to saying that heat pumps can\'t work.

heat pumps move heat

It\'s an impedance matching problem. It\'s inefficient to use a 1900C
gas flame to directly heat air to 25C.

inefficient how? A condensing gas boiler is ~95% efficient the exhaust is ~50\'C

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Wed, 09 Nov 2022 07:07:54 -0000, <upsidedown@downunder.com> wrote:

On Tue, 8 Nov 2022 15:03:08 +0100, \"Carlos E.R.\"
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

Depends. Do you have 3 phase motors?

In my country house I currently have only one pump, which require
three phases.

That can be done with single phase power and a three phase inverter
(single phase input, three phase output). I don\'t know the current price
of that, though.

Typically the single phase 230 V input inverter has 127/220 V three
phase output. The 230/400 V motors are much more common.

The other alterative is to use 3 capacitors to generate the phases
from single phase,, but the output power is severely reduced.

2kW 70 quid and it\'s variable: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wresetly-Variable-Frequency-Inverter-Universal/dp/B0BK7Y1Y54/ref=sr_1_5?keywords=3+phase+inverter&qid=1668023425&sr=8-5

 

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2022-11-12 15:49, Commander Kinsey wrote:

On Thu, 10 Nov 2022 12:42:09 -0000, Carlos E.R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2022-11-10 11:36, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 10/11/2022 10:11, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2022-11-10 02:39, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Wed, 09 Nov 2022 12:01:19 -0000, Carlos E.R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:


As I said, this is a modern country. Basically the whole of Spain is
using smart meters, changed maybe ten years ago. And I saw nothing in
media about them being faulty.

They\'re (form your point of view) pointless, and a possible source of
spying and control.  Why would you be happy with this?  They can turn
off your power at will!

Well, as I said, I no longer have to bother to open the door for the
meter man.

They really work well, no problems detected, AFAIK.

There was no alternative. It was smart meter, or mandatory cut off.


They work really well here too. People are finding their smart meters
have moved them onto more expensive tarriffs without their knowledge.

That doesn\'t happen here. Someone called and the client said \"yes\".

And their true use - to cut people off when the load is too high - seems
to be being revealed

No revelation here, we knew.

Their first step was to mandatorily insert a current limiter at the
entry box, with a lead seal for not tampering. But people tampered it,
with a \"jumper\". So the next move was smart meter with current limiter
included. End of customer fraud.

Digital things can be hacked.

If found one goes to prison.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

 

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 14/11/2022 17:30, John Larkin wrote:

On Mon, 14 Nov 2022 17:00:15 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On 14/11/2022 16:51, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 14 Nov 2022 16:25:24 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On 14/11/2022 15:32, John Larkin wrote:
Consider a \"100% efficient\" gas or electric heater. A very hot element
warms room air.

But one could add a thermoelectric generator between the heat source
and the room air and get just as much hot air, but free electricity
too! Use that to make more heat.


No, you couldnt.

The energy from the electricity would subtract from the heat output of
the device.

That is equivalent to saying that heat pumps can\'t work.

No it isnt.

It\'s an impedance matching problem. It\'s inefficient to use a 1900C
gas flame to directly heat air to 25C.

No, it isnt

California has mandated that future water heaters must be heat pumps.

Irrelevaqnt

A heat pump can deliver a given amount of space heating or hot water
at about 1/3 the cost of direct gas or resistive electric heating.

But not without an external heat source like the air or round.

granndmither eggs suck

Suppose you have 120 VAC and want to charge a 24 volt battery. You
could rectify and filter to 150 VDC, and connect that to the battery
through a resistor. Or you could use a transformer or a switching
regulator. Your engineering decision.


It\'s just an exercise in design

Yes. Try it. You can Spice a thermal system assuming

I dint know how to spice a thermal system
I do know because I am an engineer, everything below

ELECTRICAL THERMAL

1 amp 1 watt
1 farad 1 gram aluminum
1 volt 1 degree C
1 second 1 second
1 ohm 1 K/watt

which is accurate to about 10%.

Note that current is not power, as integrated heat flow is not energy.

Jesus Christ, I have a masters in electrical engineering and an ordinary
degree in general engineering including thermal energy design.

Go and patronise your hamster

As has been pointed out to you thermal transfer efficiency is a function
of how hot the working fluid gets and how cold the final exhaust is, And
infinitely large heat exchanger that heats to in infinitesimal amount
over ambient is 100% efficient.

The hotter the input to a heat exchanger the more efficient it is, the
colder the outflow from it the more efficient it is, so a warm
condensing boiler is more efficient all other things being equal to one
that gets water to over 100°C. Like wise the hotter the combustion
temperature the more efficient it will be as well. Which is why gas
turbines are once they are a attached to stream turbines,more efficient
than steam turbines alone.




--
Outside of a dog, a book is a man\'s best friend. Inside of a dog it\'s
too dark to read.

Groucho Marx

 

[server]

On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 14:58:57 -0000, \"Commander Kinsey\"
<CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

On Thu, 10 Nov 2022 21:02:03 -0000, Mark Lloyd <not.email@all.invalid> wrote:

On 11/10/22 05:51, Max Demian wrote:

[snip]

I know why it happens, just not why people use a furnace with gas.
It\'s a waste.

Waste of what? If you heat with electricity heat is wasted in the
cooling towers of the power station .

and in transmission lines.

Power stations should be closer to houses.

If you have an unused swimming pool in the basement of your apartment
building, just throw in a small research reactor (100 kW to 1 MW) and
you have heating for the winter

 

[ke...@kjwdesigns.com]

On Monday, 14 November 2022 at 09:30:48 UTC-8, John Larkin wrote:
....

A heat pump can deliver a given amount of space heating or hot water
at about 1/3 the cost of direct gas or resistive electric heating.

Suppose you have 120 VAC and want to charge a 24 volt battery. You
could rectify and filter to 150 VDC, and connect that to the battery
through a resistor. Or you could use a transformer or a switching
regulator. Your engineering decision.

....

If the objective is to provide space heating at relatively low temperature it doesn\'t make any difference which solution you choose. They are still 100% efficient.

Any heat developed in the resistor dropper in your simulation is creating desired output inanition to any that is delivered to the battery (In this case it is a heat sink at the output temperature).

If your definition of \'efficiency\' includes entropy then it would indeed be better to use a heat engine with its source as the high temperature and discard waste heat to the hot water or other area needing space heating. Some of the input heat would then be converted to a more valuable form such as mechanical or electrical power.

kw

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnot_heat_engine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnot_cycle

 

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2022-11-12 15:51, Commander Kinsey wrote:

On Thu, 10 Nov 2022 10:11:53 -0000, Carlos E.R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2022-11-10 02:39, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Wed, 09 Nov 2022 12:01:19 -0000, Carlos E.R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:


As I said, this is a modern country. Basically the whole of Spain is
using smart meters, changed maybe ten years ago. And I saw nothing in
media about them being faulty.

They\'re (form your point of view) pointless, and a possible source of
spying and control.  Why would you be happy with this?  They can turn
off your power at will!

Well, as I said, I no longer have to bother to open the door for the
meter man.

You don\'t anyway, what was he going to do if you were out?

Put a paper card in the mailbox for me to read the meter and mail to them.

If I don\'t, they charge me all the same, with an estimation that is
higher than reality.

Anyway, my meter is read about once every 5 years.

They really work well, no problems detected, AFAIK.

Have you measured it?  Switch off everything in your house, and use all
your LED lighting at once.  Add up what they should be using, and see
what the meter thinks.  There have been reports LED lighting is measured
at up to 5 times what it really is.

It is the same power as it was before, with the mechanical meter, or less.

There was no alternative. It was smart meter, or mandatory cut off.

Vote them out.

LOL.

The others would also mandate smart meters.


--
Cheers, Carlos.

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Wed, 09 Nov 2022 07:07:54 -0000, <upsidedown@downunder.com> wrote:

On Tue, 8 Nov 2022 15:03:08 +0100, \"Carlos E.R.\"
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

Depends. Do you have 3 phase motors?

In my country house I currently have only one pump, which require
three phases.

That can be done with single phase power and a three phase inverter
(single phase input, three phase output). I don\'t know the current price
of that, though.

Typically the single phase 230 V input inverter has 127/220 V three
phase output. The 230/400 V motors are much more common.

The other alterative is to use 3 capacitors to generate the phases
from single phase,, but the output power is severely reduced.

Is it possible to use a special transformer to shift the phase? So you take a single phase and lag it a bit? Do that twice over, then you have three phases cheaply.

 

[John Larkin]

On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 15:24:49 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
<tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On 11/11/2022 15:02, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 12:42:26 +0100, \"Carlos E.R.\"
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2022-11-11 12:12, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Thu, 10 Nov 2022 21:58:57 -0000, Vir Campestris
vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On 09/11/2022 12:08, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I don\'t have house heating. I heat a room at a time using a butane
stove.

Carlos, I hope you have a CO detector? It doesn\'t take a lot to go wrong
with a portable stove to produce poison gas.

I have one in my head, it\'s called getting a headache.  I don\'t waste
money on safety shit.

That\'s for CO2, fumes, and lack of O2, not abundance of CO.

The first symptom for CO is usually getting dead.

IME its a splitting headache and drowsiness.

One can be asleep and stay that way. CO detectors do save lives.

The detectors themselves aren\'t very reliable, in they they tend to
false-alarm before their rated lifetime. Mine seem to last about 5
years. I think the operation is based on irrevsible chemical reactions
that can be poisoned by other things.

 

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2022-11-12 17:54, Commander Kinsey wrote:

On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 20:20:31 -0000, Carlos E.R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2022-11-11 15:25, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 11/11/2022 13:10, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2022-11-11 13:40, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 11/11/2022 11:52, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
No one cares about bacteria in their central heating primary circuit.

Unless the level gets high enough to clog things up.

But in the hot water circuit they can be really bad news.

And in the primary there can be leaks, and happen in your kids bedroom.

I think anyone who doesn\'t fix a primary leak will soon have a
depressurised inoperative boiler

Normally.

Maybe that someone refills the circuit, not knowing where the slow leak
is. Happened to me.

Amazing people still heat their houses using water.

Pure physics. Not amazing at all. Most people in Spain use it.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

 

[John Larkin]

On Mon, 14 Nov 2022 17:48:57 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
<tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On 14/11/2022 17:30, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 14 Nov 2022 17:00:15 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On 14/11/2022 16:51, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 14 Nov 2022 16:25:24 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On 14/11/2022 15:32, John Larkin wrote:
Consider a \"100% efficient\" gas or electric heater. A very hot element
warms room air.

But one could add a thermoelectric generator between the heat source
and the room air and get just as much hot air, but free electricity
too! Use that to make more heat.


No, you couldnt.

The energy from the electricity would subtract from the heat output of
the device.

That is equivalent to saying that heat pumps can\'t work.

No it isnt.

It\'s an impedance matching problem. It\'s inefficient to use a 1900C
gas flame to directly heat air to 25C.

No, it isnt

California has mandated that future water heaters must be heat pumps.

Irrelevaqnt

A heat pump can deliver a given amount of space heating or hot water
at about 1/3 the cost of direct gas or resistive electric heating.

But not without an external heat source like the air or round.

granndmither eggs suck

Suppose you have 120 VAC and want to charge a 24 volt battery. You
could rectify and filter to 150 VDC, and connect that to the battery
through a resistor. Or you could use a transformer or a switching
regulator. Your engineering decision.


It\'s just an exercise in design

Yes. Try it. You can Spice a thermal system assuming

I dint know how to spice a thermal system
I do know because I am an engineer, everything below


ELECTRICAL THERMAL

1 amp 1 watt
1 farad 1 gram aluminum
1 volt 1 degree C
1 second 1 second
1 ohm 1 K/watt

which is accurate to about 10%.

Note that current is not power, as integrated heat flow is not energy.


Jesus Christ, I have a masters in electrical engineering and an ordinary
degree in general engineering including thermal energy design.

Go and patronise your hamster

As has been pointed out to you thermal transfer efficiency is a function
of how hot the working fluid gets and how cold the final exhaust is, And
infinitely large heat exchanger that heats to in infinitesimal amount
over ambient is 100% efficient.

The hotter the input to a heat exchanger the more efficient it is, the
colder the outflow from it the more efficient it is, so a warm
condensing boiler is more efficient all other things being equal to one
that gets water to over 100°C. Like wise the hotter the combustion
temperature the more efficient it will be as well. Which is why gas
turbines are once they are a attached to stream turbines,more efficient
than steam turbines alone.

You assume a 2-port device, like a power supply charging a battery
through a resistor.

In my case of a 150 VDC supply charging a battery through a resistor,
the battery gets all its current from the supply and the resistor gets
hot. But if you add a buck switcher, the battery gets most of its
current from ground. Supply current can be about 20% of battery
current.

Electronics is wonderful, because we can get nearly ideal parts, and
our buck switcher can work against true 0-volt ground. A heat pump
uses less than ideal parts and can\'t work against absolute zero, but
it\'s still a lot better than having a conductive path from a high temp
source to a low temp load.

The biggest part of a steam turbine system is the condenser, the 3rd
port heat dump, the switcher\'s ground. That\'s the big reason we don\'t
have steam powered cars.

 

[John Larkin]

On Mon, 14 Nov 2022 09:57:56 -0800 (PST), \"ke...@kjwdesigns.com\"
<keith@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:

On Monday, 14 November 2022 at 09:30:48 UTC-8, John Larkin wrote:
...
A heat pump can deliver a given amount of space heating or hot water
at about 1/3 the cost of direct gas or resistive electric heating.

Suppose you have 120 VAC and want to charge a 24 volt battery. You
could rectify and filter to 150 VDC, and connect that to the battery
through a resistor. Or you could use a transformer or a switching
regulator. Your engineering decision.

...

If the objective is to provide space heating at relatively low temperature it doesn\'t make any difference which solution you choose. They are still 100% efficient.

Any heat developed in the resistor dropper in your simulation is creating desired output inanition to any that is delivered to the battery (In this case it is a heat sink at the output temperature).

If your definition of \'efficiency\' includes entropy then it would indeed be better to use a heat engine with its source as the high temperature and discard waste heat to the hot water or other area needing space heating. Some of the input heat would then be converted to a more valuable form such as mechanical or electrical power.

Or more heat.

kw

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnot_heat_engine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnot_cycle

My definition of efficiency is energy efficiency, not heat efficiency.
A resistive space heater is 100% heat efficient; nothing goes up a
flue. A good gas furnace can be \"90% efficient.\" But a heat pump can
be 3x as energy efficient as either, for the same amount of hot air or
hot water. We pay for energy.

 

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2022-11-12 19:11, whit3rd wrote:

On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 6:18:52 AM UTC-8, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 13:32:17 -0000, Carlos E.R. <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2022-11-12 11:59, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 10:34:41 -0000, The Natural Philosopher
t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On 11/11/2022 20:27, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2022-11-11 14:57, Commander Kinsey wrote:

Apparently people have died in their sleep from CO2 suddenly coming
from a nearby lake. I call bullshit.

Well, it is true.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limnic_eruption
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Nyos_disaster

Not only is it true, but i got close enough to it to realize how easy it
would be, when on a school visit to a brewery I put my head below the
rim of a fermentation tank to smell the brew and got a lungful of pure
CO2.

To breathe in and have it feel like you haven\'t, is extremely scary.

But you noticed the problem and moved to somewhere with less of it,
unlike the morons that died.

They couldn\'t. The entire valley was full with CO2, for miles.

Did you read the articles?

Pah, just breathe faster. Survival of the fittest.

Ignorance isn\'t a survival trait. Read about it, or at least think.

Not only is oxygen (molecular weight 32) displaced by CO2, it is
displaced UPWARD because the CO2 molecular weight is higher (44)
making it a denser gas. Unless you get out of the valley lowland, which is
now full of CO2, you die. That\'s what happened.

And getting out of the valley could take half an hour, if you had a
bottle of air to breath meanwhile.



--
Cheers, Carlos.

 

[ke...@kjwdesigns.com]

On Monday, 14 November 2022 at 10:20:52 UTC-8, John Larkin wrote:

On Mon, 14 Nov 2022 09:57:56 -0800 (PST), \"ke...@kjwdesigns.com\"
ke...@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:

On Monday, 14 November 2022 at 09:30:48 UTC-8, John Larkin wrote:
...
A heat pump can deliver a given amount of space heating or hot water
at about 1/3 the cost of direct gas or resistive electric heating.

Suppose you have 120 VAC and want to charge a 24 volt battery. You
could rectify and filter to 150 VDC, and connect that to the battery
through a resistor. Or you could use a transformer or a switching
regulator. Your engineering decision.

...

If the objective is to provide space heating at relatively low temperature it doesn\'t make any difference which solution you choose. They are still 100% efficient.

Any heat developed in the resistor dropper in your simulation is creating desired output inanition to any that is delivered to the battery (In this case it is a heat sink at the output temperature).

If your definition of \'efficiency\' includes entropy then it would indeed be better to use a heat engine with its source as the high temperature and discard waste heat to the hot water or other area needing space heating. Some of the input heat would then be converted to a more valuable form such as mechanical or electrical power.
Or more heat.

Agreed.

....

My definition of efficiency is energy efficiency, not heat efficiency.
A resistive space heater is 100% heat efficient; nothing goes up a
flue. A good gas furnace can be \"90% efficient.\" But a heat pump can
be 3x as energy efficient as either, for the same amount of hot air or
hot water. We pay for energy.

I also agree.

From your earlier post it wasn\'t obvious to me what point you were making. It is now.

kw

 

[Peeler]

On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 22:06:06 +0200, upsidedown@downunder.com, another
mentally deficient, troll-feeding senile ASSHOLE, blathered:

If you have an unused swimming pool in the basement of your apartment
building, just throw in a small research reactor (100 kW to 1 MW) and
you have heating for the winter

If you had any brains you\'d wouldn\'t have become an idiotic troll-feeding
senile ASSHOLE!