Debug advice Kenmore coldspot 106-59422801 stopped refrigera

[Danny D.]

On Sat, 9 Jul 2016 20:23:36 +0100, Gareth Magennis wrote:

> Since you missed the question the first time.

Here are all the posts from you in the relevant thread.
I know of no questions you asked in that relevant thread that I didn't
answer.
And I know of no suggestions from you in that relevant thread that I
haven't already tried.

What I know is not there is an explanation of why the compressor might
start with the hard-start cap 2 out of 20 times.

It pulls 3 amps when it runs; 13.5 amps when it's locked.
The LRA is 17.6 amps.

What do you make of that?

--------------------------------
======================================================================
On 7/8/2016 7:22 PM, Danny D. wrote:

Debugging advice requested.
I have never debugged a refrigerator in my life.
I never even looked at the back of one before.

2010 Sears Kenmore coldspot 106-59422801 refrigerator/freezer just stopped
working at the same time that a periodic "humming and then clicking" noise
started happening.

Inside temperature this morning was 59F degrees in the frig and 49F in the
freezer (outside temperature is about 70F).

Both dial settings are on cold (mid range) where they were always left.
There is no on/off switch that we know about.
Electricity is working (fan and lights are working).

Fan is blowing full time (dunno if it always did that).
http://i.cubeupload.com/dQOTKL.jpg

Coils are at room temperature and are dusty:
http://i.cubeupload.com/jgkVXv.jpg

Compressor may not be turning on (how can we tell)?
http://i.cubeupload.com/p2OiCZ.jpg

No reason to suspect icemaker water supply yet:
http://i.cubeupload.com/myOvgH.jpg

Top of compressor is hot to the touch but not so hot as to burn (but pretty
hot otherwise):
http://i.cubeupload.com/wAX37P.jpg

We hear a humming noise kick on every five minutes for about 10 or 20
seconds and then a click when it shuts off:
http://tinypic.com/r/e6abk7/9

The only things new are the humming noise, and the fact that the
refrigerator and freezer aren't working.

First aim is to figure out how this thing works.
I was expecting to see a "motor" for the black compressor "bulb" but there
is no motor I can see - but the top of the black compressor "bulb" is hot
to the touch - but the coils are not.

I think the solenoid at the compressor "bulb" is what is making the noise.
Any debugging advice?

Sounds just exactly like a bad start relay
on the compressor. This is considered "sealed
system". If you have the owners manual, see
how long is the sealed system warranty. Probably
five years, so you're out of warranty.

If it's out of warranty, are you any good with
electrical repairs? Please write back, and we'll
continue the discussion.
======================================================================
On 7/8/2016 8:31 PM, tom wrote:

"Stormin Mormon" <cayoung61@hotmail.com> wrote in message

Sounds just exactly like a bad start relay
on the compressor. This is considered "sealed
system". If you have the owners manual, see
how long is the sealed system warranty. Probably
five years, so you're out of warranty.

If it's out of warranty, are you any good with
electrical repairs? Please write back, and we'll
continue the discussion.

--
.

I would add that you should unplug the unit until you figure out what is
wrong. In the current condition the OC protection is greatly stressed and
will not last long.

You are so, so right. The compressor will
eventually over heat and might burn out.

Thank you, well said.
======================================================================
On 7/8/2016 8:49 PM, Danny D. wrote:

On Fri, 8 Jul 2016 19:47:38 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Sounds just exactly like a bad start relay
on the compressor. This is considered "sealed
system". If you have the owners manual, see
how long is the sealed system warranty. Probably
five years, so you're out of warranty.

If it's out of warranty, are you any good with
electrical repairs? Please write back, and we'll
continue the discussion.

Thanks for the advice.
The last thing I fixed with your help was the washing machine, who had an
F28/F11 which meant the motor control board was fried.

Before that, it was a non-operational furnace (bad thermistor), and before
that there were a host of things, most of which are working just fine now.

CY: Glad to be some help. Any time (well, figuratively speaking).

I have the frig unplugged to cool the black compressor "sealed system" down
(right now the black top of the "sealed system" is warm to the touch but
not hot).

A few questions of what I should expect, since I'm not sure that I
understand how the thing works yet.

Of course, I know that decompressing fluid freon (or whatever it uses) to a
gas makes the freon cold which makes the pipes that run through the
refrigerator cold, and then recompressing that recirculating gas back to a
liquid creates heat which is blown off by the fan - but I don't know the
mechanics of what I should expect (e.g., what pumps the fluid/gas through
the system? Gravity?).

CY: The big black thing in the back is a compressor.

So I have questions if I may ask...

0. Are there 3 things inside the "sealed unit"?
a. Motor
b. Compressor
c. Solenoid

CY: No, the motor and compressor are inside. The start relay (and some
have a relay and a capacitor) outside the sealed unit. The relay and cap
should never contact refrigerant. That said, the company probably
considers the relay and cap to be part of the sealed system.

1. Is the sealed unit a replaceable part?
http://i.cubeupload.com/wAX37P.jpg (same pic as before)

CY: Yes. Though, it's often not cost effective. Requires refrigerant
pump, brazing, electrical, and more than that. Takes about three hours.

2. Why would the top of the black sealed unit be hot to the touch?

CY: The black sealed unit contains electric windings for the motor. The
unit keeps trying to start the compressor. Amp draw, turns the electric
watts into heat.

3. Is there a motor overheat safety switch that may have tripped?

CY: Yes, that combination amp and temp safety switch is what gives you
the repeated hum click.

4. Are those black coils in the bottom supposed to be warm or cold?
http://i.cubeupload.com/jgkVXv.jpg (same pic as before)
CY: When the refrig is running, warm. They should NEVER get cold.

5. I don't see motion, but the vibrating can be felt on the solenoid on the
OUTSIDE of the sealed unit (it may be translating from inside though). What
is the purpose of that solenoid on the outside of the sealed unit?
http://i.cubeupload.com/p2OiCZ.jpg (same pic as before)

CY: The compressor has two windings. Start, and run. The relay supplies
power to the start winding, and then later power to the run winding.

In an hour or so, when the "sealed unit" has cooled down, I'll plug it back
in and report back.

CY: I'm guessing it will do exactly the same hum click routine.
It's late on the east coast, I'm going to bed.
======================================================================
On 7/8/2016 8:49 PM, Danny D. wrote:

In an hour or so, when the "sealed unit" has cooled down, I'll plug it back
in and report back.

As a Kenmore, you may be able to buy OEM parts, but
if it were my unit, I'd use a universal hard start
kit. Seeing as how I carry them in my vehicle and
use the universal kits at work.
======================================================================
On 7/8/2016 9:26 PM, Danny D. wrote:

On Fri, 8 Jul 2016 18:40:55 -0500, Terry Coombs wrote:

Might be the start cap on the compressor unit - what you're calling a
"bulb" is a hermetically sealed compressor with the motor inside . The click
you're hearing is probably the overload relay .

Is this black rectangle the start cap?
http://i.cubeupload.com/aOLfge.jpg

I disconnected the spring (what is it there for?).
I disconnected the wiring.
I tried to pull the black cap outward.
I tried to pull the gray base outward.

Neither would budge.
Have you removed them before?

Is there a trick to removing them?

To keep these parts from coming off.

Pull straight out from compressor. Might need to
pry with slotted screw driver. Wiggle them back
and forth while pulling.
======================================================================
On 7/8/2016 10:40 PM, Danny D. wrote:

Is it even possible for a homeowner to replace the compressor #28?

No. Sorry, but that takes a lot of skills
that the average HO does not have.
======================================================================
On 7/9/2016 1:27 AM, Danny D. wrote:

So are these my basic choices?
a) capacitor, or
b) relay, or
c) new frig?

Any idea how to test the relay?

d) the suggestion Stormy gave yesterday.

I've never tested a relay. Just replace,
and see if the unit comes back to life.

You may also answer my question, if you wish.
The one I asked yesterday.
======================================================================
On 7/9/2016 12:29 PM, Danny D. wrote:

On Sat, 9 Jul 2016 07:21:31 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

I've never tested a relay. Just replace,
and see if the unit comes back to life.

You may also answer my question, if you
wish. The one I asked yesterday.

Hi Chris,
I answer *all* questions, so I apologize if I missed one of yours.

Thanks to you, I had the courage to pry harder on the combined
"Refrigerator Overload and Start Relay" to pull it off.
http://i.cubeupload.com/ewhAUP.jpg

The "courage" here is better than a shot of whiskey because you give me the
confidence that I just need to try harder!

And, won't prevent you from being a Mormon.
======================================================================
On 7/9/2016 12:49 PM, Danny D. wrote:

On Sat, 9 Jul 2016 12:41:11 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

And, won't prevent you from being a Mormon.

If I become a Mormon, do I have to tell my Italian wife?

CY: Yes, many Italians are Mormons.

Maybe I'll make a deal with her:
Mormon for the refrigerator?

CY: She'll love it!

PS: Is polygamy still allowed?

CY: Not since 1890.
======================================================================
On 7/9/2016 12:47 PM, Danny D. wrote:

We let it cool overnight and reassembled the cap & start relay and plugged
it in a few times. Here is a video of what happened.
http://tinypic.com/r/20ubk3d/9

Can anyone tell, from that video, what is happening?

Yes. I can. Totally what I diagnosed yesterday.
======================================================================
On 7/9/2016 6:50 PM, Danny D. wrote:

On Sat, 09 Jul 2016 12:57:59 -0400, Bob Engelhardt wrote:

Yep - this video is telling the same story as the first one: the motor
tries to start & the overload clicks open when it overheats from the
excessive current. (It's probably a bimetal leaf.)


The guy at the parts store showed me a type of relay that has a
semiconductor disc inside which shatters, and when you shake the relay, if
it's broken, it rattles.

The one he had on the counter rattled, but he said mine isn't that kind
(probably a bimetallic strip as you said).

He really talked me out of buying both parts. They were each about 50
bucks, and he said I'd just be unhappy. So he sent me home to do some more
diagnostics with a test cable, which I'm gonna make now.

Danny, are my posts making it through your server?
======================================================================
On 7/9/2016 6:48 PM, Danny D. wrote:

On Sat, 09 Jul 2016 10:20:40 -0700, Oren wrote:

My memory fails. Awhile back there was a link or video about the
sequence of how you test the pins. No clue if it is accurate or
correct.

Blank stare:

1) Bottom two pins

2) Bottom right and top

3) Top and Bottom left
--

Went to a great appliance store in San Jose where the guy behind the
counter tested the cap and said it was good.

He said the compressor not working could be three things:
1. Bad compressor
2. Bad relay
3. Restriction in the freon lines

He strongly suggested I not buy his relay from him before testing it, and
he explained how the relay works (the white part is the thermal switch by
the way).

He said to plug in the power to the relay (two spades) and check that the
backside of the relay (3 pins) has power to common.

To do this, he told me to create a test jig where I can put 120 volts to
the Start and Main/Run pins of the compressor, with the neutral on the
common pin, and then pull off the start once the compressor starts.

He said if the compressor doesn't start - then that's it for the frig.

So I went home empty handed and then picked up some alligator clips,
spades, and butt connectors and am slapping together a test jig as we type.
The wife and sister were very unhappy that I came home, essentially, empty
handed. But the guy was right that I didn't do enough diagnostics.

The test jig will have two spades on the incoming end, which will plug into
the existing power cable (hot and neutral), and then it will have three
outputs which will be tube-connectors (two hots and one neutral).

The procedure will be:
1. Unplug power
2. Hook two male spades to female spades in power cord
3. Hook a butt plug to Start (hot) and to Run/Main (hot) and to neutral
4. Plug it in
5. Yank off the start wire as soon as the compressor starts

If the compressor starts, then it's good.
If not ...

Danny, are my posts making it to you,
through your server? You've not answered
my question. And you're going through a
lot of bother which isn't really needed.

But, did you ever do any thing simple?

I leave you to your complications.
======================================================================
On 7/9/2016 6:48 PM, Danny D. wrote:

On Sat, 09 Jul 2016 10:20:40 -0700, Oren wrote:

My memory fails. Awhile back there was a link or video about the
sequence of how you test the pins. No clue if it is accurate or
correct.

Blank stare:

1) Bottom two pins

2) Bottom right and top

3) Top and Bottom left
--

Went to a great appliance store in San Jose where the guy behind the
counter tested the cap and said it was good.

He said the compressor not working could be three things:
1. Bad compressor
2. Bad relay
3. Restriction in the freon lines

He strongly suggested I not buy his relay from him before testing it, and
he explained how the relay works (the white part is the thermal switch by
the way).

He said to plug in the power to the relay (two spades) and check that the
backside of the relay (3 pins) has power to common.

To do this, he told me to create a test jig where I can put 120 volts to
the Start and Main/Run pins of the compressor, with the neutral on the
common pin, and then pull off the start once the compressor starts.

He said if the compressor doesn't start - then that's it for the frig.

So I went home empty handed and then picked up some alligator clips,
spades, and butt connectors and am slapping together a test jig as we type.
The wife and sister were very unhappy that I came home, essentially, empty
handed. But the guy was right that I didn't do enough diagnostics.

The test jig will have two spades on the incoming end, which will plug into
the existing power cable (hot and neutral), and then it will have three
outputs which will be tube-connectors (two hots and one neutral).

The procedure will be:
1. Unplug power
2. Hook two male spades to female spades in power cord
3. Hook a butt plug to Start (hot) and to Run/Main (hot) and to neutral
4. Plug it in
5. Yank off the start wire as soon as the compressor starts

If the compressor starts, then it's good.
If not ...

Danny, are my posts making it to you, through your server?
You've not answered my question.
And you're going through a lot of bother which isn't really needed.
But, did you ever do any thing simple?
I leave you to your complications.
======================================================================
On 7/12/2016 3:22 PM, Danny D. wrote:

On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 11:36:19 -0400, tom wrote:

The drawing looks correct.

I don't think it is a restriction in the gas circuit. Leaving the unit sit
for a day would most likely let the pressures to equalize.

It might be a mechanical issue like a reed valve broken and jamming the
piston.

I don't know any other way to test for "mechanical" operation of the
compressor.

Pump out all the refrigerant.
Saw the top off the compressor.
After the inspection, weld the compressor using a gas tight "bead" of weld.
Replace the refrigerant.

No problem for you, right?
======================================================================
On 7/12/2016 5:26 PM, tom wrote:

There are "hard start" compressor starters available that might be worth
looking at.

Don't bother. I suggested that a week ago,
and Danny totally ignored me. And ignored
my hints and reminders.

======================================================================
On 7/12/2016 7:08 PM, Bob Engelhardt wrote:

On 7/12/2016 6:35 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Don't bother. I suggested that a week ago,
and Danny totally ignored me. And ignored
my hints and reminders.

Actually, I don't think that you did. You probably meant to, but were
too pissed from his ignoring you.

Think I remember at least one reminder. Well,
moot point. He's gone so far afield on so many
directions, there's no contacting him, now.
======================================================================
On 7/12/2016 10:57 PM, Danny D. wrote:

On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 21:53:52 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Think I remember at least one reminder. Well,
moot point. He's gone so far afield on so many
directions, there's no contacting him, now.

I think I tried *every* suggestion ever made in this thread.

Here's yours, but I don't remember it being suggested until today.
http://i.cubeupload.com/ja5XaK.jpg

You never answered my question, and I never
made any suggestions what to do. Other than
suggesting you answer my question so we can
move on.
======================================================================
On 7/12/2016 10:47 PM, Danny D. wrote:

On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 18:35:48 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Don't bother. I suggested that a week ago,
and Danny totally ignored me. And ignored
my hints and reminders.

You mean this?
http://i.cubeupload.com/VD0haS.jp

"not found" is what the web page says.
======================================================================
On 7/12/2016 10:47 PM, Danny D. wrote:

On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 18:35:48 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Don't bother. I suggested that a week ago,
and Danny totally ignored me. And ignored
my hints and reminders.

You mean this?
http://i.cubeupload.com/VD0haS.jpg

I added a g to the end of the URL, and got
a picture. I can't comment on that, until
you answer my question.
======================================================================
On 7/12/2016 11:21 PM, Danny D. wrote:

On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 22:53:09 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

I added a g to the end of the URL, and got
a picture. I can't comment on that, until
you answer my question.

Ooops. Mea culpa. Sorry about that missing "g".

It should have been:
http://i.cubeupload.com/VD0haS.jpg

Ummmmm... what question?

But I have a question for you.
How do you respond so quickly?

I have to sit down at the computer to even see a message, so, I don't see
them in real time. Do you have something that goes to your phone?

Coincidence. I'm on the east coast, and
spend a bit of time on the computer in
the evenings.

What question? I only asked twice.
======================================================================
On 7/13/2016 12:56 AM, Danny D. wrote:

Good news, and odd news.

1. I let it cool down for 1/2 hour and then when I plugged the Supco RC0410
1/4-to-1/3 HP 120VAC "3n1 Start" Solid State Relay Overload Start Capacitor
Combination unit in to the mains, the compressor started again!

2. I left the connections to the motor where they were, which seemed to
match our assumption that the top was the COMMON, and the forward-facing
bottom was the START and the rearward facing bottom was the RUN/MARK
connection.
http://i.cubeupload.com/YMMqW4.jpg

3. You'll notice I am not using the original power cord, so I have the rest
of the frig (including condenser the fan) on its own power supply and the
Supco RC0410 hard-start cap on its own power cord.
http://i.cubeupload.com/yiOL3g.jpg

3. With the Ammeter on the 15Amp scale, when the compressor was running,
the current on the black COMMON lead was about 3 amps.
http://i.cubeupload.com/GLn0bK.jpg

4. To doublecheck, I checked the current on the input cord neutrals, which
was also 3 Amps (not surprisingly):
http://i.cubeupload.com/k7D1Th.jpg

5. When the compressor was starting, the current on the START lead jumped a
bit (maybe double the 3 amps?) and then instantly settled down to zero amps
(or very slightly above zero amps).
http://i.cubeupload.com/5vR3jy.jpg

6. Then the compressor ran for about 10 or 20 minutes, getting very hot to
the touch, where the output (thin) line was hot enough to burn my
fingertips and even the input (thick) copper line was warm to the touch
(and the refrigerator began to get noticeably cooler inside the doors).

7. After 10 or 15 or so minutes of running, the compressor began to hum
instead of work causing 11 amps to flow through the COMMON lead, and then
the relay clicked off (is that supposed to happen?).
http://i.cubeupload.com/9TNB1Q.jpg

8. Then the compressor turned back on, after about 10 minutes, and worked
for a much shorter period of time, before turning off again (maybe fewer
than five minutes).

Is it normal for a compressor to shut off after getting very hot after
working for only about 10 minutes?

Is it OK to have the frig temporarily on two power cords?
a. One for the fan and the rest of the frig
b. One just for the compressor

If you'd done what I said, and played along,
this could have been fixed last week. Hope
you are enjoying your self.

======================================================================
On 7/13/2016 1:09 PM, Danny D. wrote:

On Wed, 13 Jul 2016 07:56:28 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

If you'd done what I said, and played along,
this could have been fixed last week. Hope
you are enjoying your self.

I don't see why you're so angry.

I'm trying to fix the frig while keeping my sister from saying "I told you
so" and while my wife is constantly asking me when she can have her kitchen
back.

I've never even *looked* at the back of a frig before (although I know
basic refrigeration theory from high-school chemistry).

The 1/2-to-1/3HP hard-start cap isn't working.

Half the time it starts the compressor, and half the time it does NOT start
the compressor.

Yes, it's obvious that you don't see.
======================================================================
On 7/13/2016 10:00 PM, Danny D. wrote:

On Wed, 13 Jul 2016 19:42:21 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Yes, it's obvious that you don't see.

Here's the thing.
I'm obviously not an engineer nor a tech.
I'm just a guy.

I had never looked at the back of a frig in my life before.
I ask you guys for help because the frig is a riddle to me.
I don't need more riddles though.

When you run into a problem, you can either
do things differently, or force harder, using
the technique which has failed up to that point.

I offered you (repeatedly) a chance to do
differently, and you ignored me repeatedly.
This post is an example of trying to force
your failing techniques even harder, and
trying to force me to participate with your
failings. I'll have you know, that I viewed
NONE of the links, and barely read your text.

By way of references, I've been working on
domstic refrigerators for over 10 years. I'm
fairly sure that if you'd done what I said,
it would have been fixed several days ago.
I'm also fairly sure I know why your compressor
keeps going off.
======================================================================
On 7/14/2016 2:01 PM, Danny D. wrote:

I answered *every* single question that people, including you, asked.

Nope. And, I asked twice.
======================================================================
On 7/14/2016 2:01 PM, Danny D. wrote:

I can't be any more blunt (and I don't do riddles).

No more riddles please. Just straight talk.
1. What is your question?
2. What is your suggestion?

It's under this header, and also under
subject line of "Debug advice, and a
question for Danny D".
======================================================================
On 7/13/2016 2:02 AM, Danny D. wrote:

I was throwing away the frig as of this morning, so, there was no need to
clean the condenser coil. I guess I'll clean it now - although do you
really thing *that* is what is making the compressor cycle?

When you go back and answer my question,
I'll consider answer yours.
======================================================================
======================================================================

 

[Danny D.]

On Wed, 13 Jul 2016 07:52:43 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

On 7/13/2016 1:51 AM, tom wrote:

For the last time, did you clean the dust off the condenser coil? That's
important.


Please realize that Danny D claims to answer all
questions, but usually ignores the important
questions, even when asked several times. Danny
D appears to pick and choose what he sees, and
what he does. Even though he says I've helped
diagnose a couple of problems for him over the
years, he's lost my help on this refrig issue.
I can see a couple things that may very well be
big problems (and some simple things he can do).
But, not until he goes back and answers the
questions I've asked two or three times.

"for the last time" is a very wise thing to write.
I hope you keep your own word, and stop feeding
into this guy's analysis pyralysis.

If it had been my refrigerator, it would have
been fixed and running, long time ago. Danny D
doesn't appear to want it fixed, he's just doing
break down, analysis, flow charts, web pictures,
and videos.

Why spend any more time on a guy who's not serious?
I'm to the point where I glance at and delete the
posts with little attention to what he's playing
with.

There are pictures galore of me not only dusting off the compressor coils,
but also blowing 100psi compressed air, and even a story about how my
sister saw all the dust that came out streamed across the kitchen floor for
more than 10 feet.

There are also pictures of the coils very clean and they aren't and never
were the problem, simply because dusty coils can not cause a compressor not
to start. They can cause a compressor to work harder and overheat (simply
because they're not cooling - but they can't possibly cause a compressor
not to start).

As for picking and choosing, I read *all* posts in the threads that I
author, and I respond to all valid posts in the threads I author.

I have been doing this for years in this newsgroup, so you know this.
I also do not respond to threads that I don't author, which also you should
know by now (simply becuase I have almost never done it).

The only reason I even saw this thread is that SM said that he asked a
question and I tried to find what the heck he was talking about.

I still haven't found the question he says is unanswered, and even more
importantly, I still haven't found any suggestion from him that isn't what
I already did long ago.

Here are all the posts from him in that thread - none of which contain an
unanswered question or an untried suggestion.
======================================================================
On 7/8/2016 7:22 PM, Danny D. wrote:

Debugging advice requested.
I have never debugged a refrigerator in my life.
I never even looked at the back of one before.

2010 Sears Kenmore coldspot 106-59422801 refrigerator/freezer just stopped
working at the same time that a periodic "humming and then clicking" noise
started happening.

Inside temperature this morning was 59F degrees in the frig and 49F in the
freezer (outside temperature is about 70F).

Both dial settings are on cold (mid range) where they were always left.
There is no on/off switch that we know about.
Electricity is working (fan and lights are working).

Fan is blowing full time (dunno if it always did that).
http://i.cubeupload.com/dQOTKL.jpg

Coils are at room temperature and are dusty:
http://i.cubeupload.com/jgkVXv.jpg

Compressor may not be turning on (how can we tell)?
http://i.cubeupload.com/p2OiCZ.jpg

No reason to suspect icemaker water supply yet:
http://i.cubeupload.com/myOvgH.jpg

Top of compressor is hot to the touch but not so hot as to burn (but pretty
hot otherwise):
http://i.cubeupload.com/wAX37P.jpg

We hear a humming noise kick on every five minutes for about 10 or 20
seconds and then a click when it shuts off:
http://tinypic.com/r/e6abk7/9

The only things new are the humming noise, and the fact that the
refrigerator and freezer aren't working.

First aim is to figure out how this thing works.
I was expecting to see a "motor" for the black compressor "bulb" but there
is no motor I can see - but the top of the black compressor "bulb" is hot
to the touch - but the coils are not.

I think the solenoid at the compressor "bulb" is what is making the noise.
Any debugging advice?

Sounds just exactly like a bad start relay
on the compressor. This is considered "sealed
system". If you have the owners manual, see
how long is the sealed system warranty. Probably
five years, so you're out of warranty.

If it's out of warranty, are you any good with
electrical repairs? Please write back, and we'll
continue the discussion.
======================================================================
On 7/8/2016 8:31 PM, tom wrote:

"Stormin Mormon" <cayoung61@hotmail.com> wrote in message

Sounds just exactly like a bad start relay
on the compressor. This is considered "sealed
system". If you have the owners manual, see
how long is the sealed system warranty. Probably
five years, so you're out of warranty.

If it's out of warranty, are you any good with
electrical repairs? Please write back, and we'll
continue the discussion.

--
.

I would add that you should unplug the unit until you figure out what is
wrong. In the current condition the OC protection is greatly stressed and
will not last long.

You are so, so right. The compressor will
eventually over heat and might burn out.

Thank you, well said.
======================================================================
On 7/8/2016 8:49 PM, Danny D. wrote:

On Fri, 8 Jul 2016 19:47:38 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Sounds just exactly like a bad start relay
on the compressor. This is considered "sealed
system". If you have the owners manual, see
how long is the sealed system warranty. Probably
five years, so you're out of warranty.

If it's out of warranty, are you any good with
electrical repairs? Please write back, and we'll
continue the discussion.

Thanks for the advice.
The last thing I fixed with your help was the washing machine, who had an
F28/F11 which meant the motor control board was fried.

Before that, it was a non-operational furnace (bad thermistor), and before
that there were a host of things, most of which are working just fine now.

CY: Glad to be some help. Any time (well, figuratively speaking).

I have the frig unplugged to cool the black compressor "sealed system" down
(right now the black top of the "sealed system" is warm to the touch but
not hot).

A few questions of what I should expect, since I'm not sure that I
understand how the thing works yet.

Of course, I know that decompressing fluid freon (or whatever it uses) to a
gas makes the freon cold which makes the pipes that run through the
refrigerator cold, and then recompressing that recirculating gas back to a
liquid creates heat which is blown off by the fan - but I don't know the
mechanics of what I should expect (e.g., what pumps the fluid/gas through
the system? Gravity?).

CY: The big black thing in the back is a compressor.

So I have questions if I may ask...

0. Are there 3 things inside the "sealed unit"?
a. Motor
b. Compressor
c. Solenoid

CY: No, the motor and compressor are inside. The start relay (and some
have a relay and a capacitor) outside the sealed unit. The relay and cap
should never contact refrigerant. That said, the company probably
considers the relay and cap to be part of the sealed system.

1. Is the sealed unit a replaceable part?
http://i.cubeupload.com/wAX37P.jpg (same pic as before)

CY: Yes. Though, it's often not cost effective. Requires refrigerant
pump, brazing, electrical, and more than that. Takes about three hours.

2. Why would the top of the black sealed unit be hot to the touch?

CY: The black sealed unit contains electric windings for the motor. The
unit keeps trying to start the compressor. Amp draw, turns the electric
watts into heat.

3. Is there a motor overheat safety switch that may have tripped?

CY: Yes, that combination amp and temp safety switch is what gives you
the repeated hum click.

4. Are those black coils in the bottom supposed to be warm or cold?
http://i.cubeupload.com/jgkVXv.jpg (same pic as before)
CY: When the refrig is running, warm. They should NEVER get cold.

5. I don't see motion, but the vibrating can be felt on the solenoid on the
OUTSIDE of the sealed unit (it may be translating from inside though). What
is the purpose of that solenoid on the outside of the sealed unit?
http://i.cubeupload.com/p2OiCZ.jpg (same pic as before)

CY: The compressor has two windings. Start, and run. The relay supplies
power to the start winding, and then later power to the run winding.

In an hour or so, when the "sealed unit" has cooled down, I'll plug it back
in and report back.

CY: I'm guessing it will do exactly the same hum click routine.
It's late on the east coast, I'm going to bed.
======================================================================
On 7/8/2016 8:49 PM, Danny D. wrote:

In an hour or so, when the "sealed unit" has cooled down, I'll plug it back
in and report back.

As a Kenmore, you may be able to buy OEM parts, but
if it were my unit, I'd use a universal hard start
kit. Seeing as how I carry them in my vehicle and
use the universal kits at work.
======================================================================
On 7/8/2016 9:26 PM, Danny D. wrote:

On Fri, 8 Jul 2016 18:40:55 -0500, Terry Coombs wrote:

Might be the start cap on the compressor unit - what you're calling a
"bulb" is a hermetically sealed compressor with the motor inside . The click
you're hearing is probably the overload relay .

Is this black rectangle the start cap?
http://i.cubeupload.com/aOLfge.jpg

I disconnected the spring (what is it there for?).
I disconnected the wiring.
I tried to pull the black cap outward.
I tried to pull the gray base outward.

Neither would budge.
Have you removed them before?

Is there a trick to removing them?

To keep these parts from coming off.

Pull straight out from compressor. Might need to
pry with slotted screw driver. Wiggle them back
and forth while pulling.
======================================================================
On 7/8/2016 10:40 PM, Danny D. wrote:

Is it even possible for a homeowner to replace the compressor #28?

No. Sorry, but that takes a lot of skills
that the average HO does not have.
======================================================================
On 7/9/2016 1:27 AM, Danny D. wrote:

So are these my basic choices?
a) capacitor, or
b) relay, or
c) new frig?

Any idea how to test the relay?

d) the suggestion Stormy gave yesterday.

I've never tested a relay. Just replace,
and see if the unit comes back to life.

You may also answer my question, if you wish.
The one I asked yesterday.
======================================================================
On 7/9/2016 12:29 PM, Danny D. wrote:

On Sat, 9 Jul 2016 07:21:31 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

I've never tested a relay. Just replace,
and see if the unit comes back to life.

You may also answer my question, if you
wish. The one I asked yesterday.

Hi Chris,
I answer *all* questions, so I apologize if I missed one of yours.

Thanks to you, I had the courage to pry harder on the combined
"Refrigerator Overload and Start Relay" to pull it off.
http://i.cubeupload.com/ewhAUP.jpg

The "courage" here is better than a shot of whiskey because you give me the
confidence that I just need to try harder!

And, won't prevent you from being a Mormon.
======================================================================
On 7/9/2016 12:49 PM, Danny D. wrote:

On Sat, 9 Jul 2016 12:41:11 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

And, won't prevent you from being a Mormon.

If I become a Mormon, do I have to tell my Italian wife?

CY: Yes, many Italians are Mormons.

Maybe I'll make a deal with her:
Mormon for the refrigerator?

CY: She'll love it!

PS: Is polygamy still allowed?

CY: Not since 1890.
======================================================================
On 7/9/2016 12:47 PM, Danny D. wrote:

We let it cool overnight and reassembled the cap & start relay and plugged
it in a few times. Here is a video of what happened.
http://tinypic.com/r/20ubk3d/9

Can anyone tell, from that video, what is happening?

Yes. I can. Totally what I diagnosed yesterday.
======================================================================
On 7/9/2016 6:50 PM, Danny D. wrote:

On Sat, 09 Jul 2016 12:57:59 -0400, Bob Engelhardt wrote:

Yep - this video is telling the same story as the first one: the motor
tries to start & the overload clicks open when it overheats from the
excessive current. (It's probably a bimetal leaf.)


The guy at the parts store showed me a type of relay that has a
semiconductor disc inside which shatters, and when you shake the relay, if
it's broken, it rattles.

The one he had on the counter rattled, but he said mine isn't that kind
(probably a bimetallic strip as you said).

He really talked me out of buying both parts. They were each about 50
bucks, and he said I'd just be unhappy. So he sent me home to do some more
diagnostics with a test cable, which I'm gonna make now.

Danny, are my posts making it through your server?
======================================================================
On 7/9/2016 6:48 PM, Danny D. wrote:

On Sat, 09 Jul 2016 10:20:40 -0700, Oren wrote:

My memory fails. Awhile back there was a link or video about the
sequence of how you test the pins. No clue if it is accurate or
correct.

Blank stare:

1) Bottom two pins

2) Bottom right and top

3) Top and Bottom left
--

Went to a great appliance store in San Jose where the guy behind the
counter tested the cap and said it was good.

He said the compressor not working could be three things:
1. Bad compressor
2. Bad relay
3. Restriction in the freon lines

He strongly suggested I not buy his relay from him before testing it, and
he explained how the relay works (the white part is the thermal switch by
the way).

He said to plug in the power to the relay (two spades) and check that the
backside of the relay (3 pins) has power to common.

To do this, he told me to create a test jig where I can put 120 volts to
the Start and Main/Run pins of the compressor, with the neutral on the
common pin, and then pull off the start once the compressor starts.

He said if the compressor doesn't start - then that's it for the frig.

So I went home empty handed and then picked up some alligator clips,
spades, and butt connectors and am slapping together a test jig as we type.
The wife and sister were very unhappy that I came home, essentially, empty
handed. But the guy was right that I didn't do enough diagnostics.

The test jig will have two spades on the incoming end, which will plug into
the existing power cable (hot and neutral), and then it will have three
outputs which will be tube-connectors (two hots and one neutral).

The procedure will be:
1. Unplug power
2. Hook two male spades to female spades in power cord
3. Hook a butt plug to Start (hot) and to Run/Main (hot) and to neutral
4. Plug it in
5. Yank off the start wire as soon as the compressor starts

If the compressor starts, then it's good.
If not ...

Danny, are my posts making it to you,
through your server? You've not answered
my question. And you're going through a
lot of bother which isn't really needed.

But, did you ever do any thing simple?

I leave you to your complications.
======================================================================
On 7/9/2016 6:48 PM, Danny D. wrote:

On Sat, 09 Jul 2016 10:20:40 -0700, Oren wrote:

My memory fails. Awhile back there was a link or video about the
sequence of how you test the pins. No clue if it is accurate or
correct.

Blank stare:

1) Bottom two pins

2) Bottom right and top

3) Top and Bottom left
--

Went to a great appliance store in San Jose where the guy behind the
counter tested the cap and said it was good.

He said the compressor not working could be three things:
1. Bad compressor
2. Bad relay
3. Restriction in the freon lines

He strongly suggested I not buy his relay from him before testing it, and
he explained how the relay works (the white part is the thermal switch by
the way).

He said to plug in the power to the relay (two spades) and check that the
backside of the relay (3 pins) has power to common.

To do this, he told me to create a test jig where I can put 120 volts to
the Start and Main/Run pins of the compressor, with the neutral on the
common pin, and then pull off the start once the compressor starts.

He said if the compressor doesn't start - then that's it for the frig.

So I went home empty handed and then picked up some alligator clips,
spades, and butt connectors and am slapping together a test jig as we type.
The wife and sister were very unhappy that I came home, essentially, empty
handed. But the guy was right that I didn't do enough diagnostics.

The test jig will have two spades on the incoming end, which will plug into
the existing power cable (hot and neutral), and then it will have three
outputs which will be tube-connectors (two hots and one neutral).

The procedure will be:
1. Unplug power
2. Hook two male spades to female spades in power cord
3. Hook a butt plug to Start (hot) and to Run/Main (hot) and to neutral
4. Plug it in
5. Yank off the start wire as soon as the compressor starts

If the compressor starts, then it's good.
If not ...

Danny, are my posts making it to you, through your server?
You've not answered my question.
And you're going through a lot of bother which isn't really needed.
But, did you ever do any thing simple?
I leave you to your complications.
======================================================================
On 7/12/2016 3:22 PM, Danny D. wrote:

On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 11:36:19 -0400, tom wrote:

The drawing looks correct.

I don't think it is a restriction in the gas circuit. Leaving the unit sit
for a day would most likely let the pressures to equalize.

It might be a mechanical issue like a reed valve broken and jamming the
piston.

I don't know any other way to test for "mechanical" operation of the
compressor.

Pump out all the refrigerant.
Saw the top off the compressor.
After the inspection, weld the compressor using a gas tight "bead" of weld.
Replace the refrigerant.

No problem for you, right?
======================================================================
On 7/12/2016 5:26 PM, tom wrote:

There are "hard start" compressor starters available that might be worth
looking at.

Don't bother. I suggested that a week ago,
and Danny totally ignored me. And ignored
my hints and reminders.

======================================================================
On 7/12/2016 7:08 PM, Bob Engelhardt wrote:

On 7/12/2016 6:35 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Don't bother. I suggested that a week ago,
and Danny totally ignored me. And ignored
my hints and reminders.

Actually, I don't think that you did. You probably meant to, but were
too pissed from his ignoring you.

Think I remember at least one reminder. Well,
moot point. He's gone so far afield on so many
directions, there's no contacting him, now.
======================================================================
On 7/12/2016 10:57 PM, Danny D. wrote:

On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 21:53:52 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Think I remember at least one reminder. Well,
moot point. He's gone so far afield on so many
directions, there's no contacting him, now.

I think I tried *every* suggestion ever made in this thread.

Here's yours, but I don't remember it being suggested until today.
http://i.cubeupload.com/ja5XaK.jpg

You never answered my question, and I never
made any suggestions what to do. Other than
suggesting you answer my question so we can
move on.
======================================================================
On 7/12/2016 10:47 PM, Danny D. wrote:

On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 18:35:48 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Don't bother. I suggested that a week ago,
and Danny totally ignored me. And ignored
my hints and reminders.

You mean this?
http://i.cubeupload.com/VD0haS.jp

"not found" is what the web page says.
======================================================================
On 7/12/2016 10:47 PM, Danny D. wrote:

On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 18:35:48 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Don't bother. I suggested that a week ago,
and Danny totally ignored me. And ignored
my hints and reminders.

You mean this?
http://i.cubeupload.com/VD0haS.jpg

I added a g to the end of the URL, and got
a picture. I can't comment on that, until
you answer my question.
======================================================================
On 7/12/2016 11:21 PM, Danny D. wrote:

On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 22:53:09 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

I added a g to the end of the URL, and got
a picture. I can't comment on that, until
you answer my question.

Ooops. Mea culpa. Sorry about that missing "g".

It should have been:
http://i.cubeupload.com/VD0haS.jpg

Ummmmm... what question?

But I have a question for you.
How do you respond so quickly?

I have to sit down at the computer to even see a message, so, I don't see
them in real time. Do you have something that goes to your phone?

Coincidence. I'm on the east coast, and
spend a bit of time on the computer in
the evenings.

What question? I only asked twice.
======================================================================
On 7/13/2016 12:56 AM, Danny D. wrote:

Good news, and odd news.

1. I let it cool down for 1/2 hour and then when I plugged the Supco RC0410
1/4-to-1/3 HP 120VAC "3n1 Start" Solid State Relay Overload Start Capacitor
Combination unit in to the mains, the compressor started again!

2. I left the connections to the motor where they were, which seemed to
match our assumption that the top was the COMMON, and the forward-facing
bottom was the START and the rearward facing bottom was the RUN/MARK
connection.
http://i.cubeupload.com/YMMqW4.jpg

3. You'll notice I am not using the original power cord, so I have the rest
of the frig (including condenser the fan) on its own power supply and the
Supco RC0410 hard-start cap on its own power cord.
http://i.cubeupload.com/yiOL3g.jpg

3. With the Ammeter on the 15Amp scale, when the compressor was running,
the current on the black COMMON lead was about 3 amps.
http://i.cubeupload.com/GLn0bK.jpg

4. To doublecheck, I checked the current on the input cord neutrals, which
was also 3 Amps (not surprisingly):
http://i.cubeupload.com/k7D1Th.jpg

5. When the compressor was starting, the current on the START lead jumped a
bit (maybe double the 3 amps?) and then instantly settled down to zero amps
(or very slightly above zero amps).
http://i.cubeupload.com/5vR3jy.jpg

6. Then the compressor ran for about 10 or 20 minutes, getting very hot to
the touch, where the output (thin) line was hot enough to burn my
fingertips and even the input (thick) copper line was warm to the touch
(and the refrigerator began to get noticeably cooler inside the doors).

7. After 10 or 15 or so minutes of running, the compressor began to hum
instead of work causing 11 amps to flow through the COMMON lead, and then
the relay clicked off (is that supposed to happen?).
http://i.cubeupload.com/9TNB1Q.jpg

8. Then the compressor turned back on, after about 10 minutes, and worked
for a much shorter period of time, before turning off again (maybe fewer
than five minutes).

Is it normal for a compressor to shut off after getting very hot after
working for only about 10 minutes?

Is it OK to have the frig temporarily on two power cords?
a. One for the fan and the rest of the frig
b. One just for the compressor

If you'd done what I said, and played along,
this could have been fixed last week. Hope
you are enjoying your self.

======================================================================
On 7/13/2016 1:09 PM, Danny D. wrote:

On Wed, 13 Jul 2016 07:56:28 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

If you'd done what I said, and played along,
this could have been fixed last week. Hope
you are enjoying your self.

I don't see why you're so angry.

I'm trying to fix the frig while keeping my sister from saying "I told you
so" and while my wife is constantly asking me when she can have her kitchen
back.

I've never even *looked* at the back of a frig before (although I know
basic refrigeration theory from high-school chemistry).

The 1/2-to-1/3HP hard-start cap isn't working.

Half the time it starts the compressor, and half the time it does NOT start
the compressor.

Yes, it's obvious that you don't see.
======================================================================
On 7/13/2016 10:00 PM, Danny D. wrote:

On Wed, 13 Jul 2016 19:42:21 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Yes, it's obvious that you don't see.

Here's the thing.
I'm obviously not an engineer nor a tech.
I'm just a guy.

I had never looked at the back of a frig in my life before.
I ask you guys for help because the frig is a riddle to me.
I don't need more riddles though.

When you run into a problem, you can either
do things differently, or force harder, using
the technique which has failed up to that point.

I offered you (repeatedly) a chance to do
differently, and you ignored me repeatedly.
This post is an example of trying to force
your failing techniques even harder, and
trying to force me to participate with your
failings. I'll have you know, that I viewed
NONE of the links, and barely read your text.

By way of references, I've been working on
domstic refrigerators for over 10 years. I'm
fairly sure that if you'd done what I said,
it would have been fixed several days ago.
I'm also fairly sure I know why your compressor
keeps going off.
======================================================================
On 7/14/2016 2:01 PM, Danny D. wrote:

I answered *every* single question that people, including you, asked.

Nope. And, I asked twice.
======================================================================
On 7/14/2016 2:01 PM, Danny D. wrote:

I can't be any more blunt (and I don't do riddles).

No more riddles please. Just straight talk.
1. What is your question?
2. What is your suggestion?

It's under this header, and also under
subject line of "Debug advice, and a
question for Danny D".
======================================================================
On 7/13/2016 2:02 AM, Danny D. wrote:

I was throwing away the frig as of this morning, so, there was no need to
clean the condenser coil. I guess I'll clean it now - although do you
really thing *that* is what is making the compressor cycle?

When you go back and answer my question,
I'll consider answer yours.
======================================================================
======================================================================

 

[Danny D.]

On Wed, 13 Jul 2016 07:52:43 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Why spend any more time on a guy who's not serious?
I'm to the point where I glance at and delete the
posts with little attention to what he's playing
with.

How can you say such a thing?
You don't seem to be seriously trying to answer the two questions I asked
you.

 

[Stormin Mormon]

On 7/14/2016 2:01 PM, Danny D. wrote:

I answered *every* single question that people, including you, asked.

Nope. And, I asked twice.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

 

[Stormin Mormon]

On 7/14/2016 2:01 PM, Danny D. wrote:

I can't be any more blunt (and I don't do riddles).

No more riddles please. Just straight talk.
1. What is your question?
2. What is your suggestion?

It's under this header, and also under
subject line of "Debug advice, and a
question for Danny D".

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

 

[Stormin Mormon]

On 7/12/2016 11:36 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

?
Please write back, and we'llcontinue the discussion.
Not that Danny reads my posts, you see.

 

[Stormin Mormon]

On 7/14/2016 8:31 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

On 7/12/2016 11:36 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
If it's out of warranty, [*are you any good withelectrical repairs*]?
Please write back, and we'llcontinue the discussion.
Not that Danny reads my posts, you see.


Fourth time I've posted the question. Or maybe fifth time.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

 

[Stormin Mormon]

On 7/14/2016 9:31 PM, Danny D. wrote:

On Wed, 13 Jul 2016 07:52:43 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

As for picking and choosing, I read *all* posts in the threads that I
author, and I respond to all valid posts in the threads I author.

I have been doing this for years in this newsgroup, so you know this.
I also do not respond to threads that I don't author, which also you should
know by now (simply becuase I have almost never done it).

Since you appear to think I know all about your
posting style, I must presume that you there fore
know all about mine. I like a good trim text job.
Leave enough text so we know the question that
goes with the reply. But, sending a dozen or so
quoted replies back through the list is really bad
manners.

With your simple answer to my simple question,
please do a reasonable text trim. Thank you.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

 

[Stormin Mormon]

On 7/14/2016 9:37 PM, Bob Engelhardt wrote:

Oh, for Kee-rist sake(!!) ... here is the question, in S-T's 2nd post.
Hint: it precedes the "?" punctuation:

On 7/8/2016 7:47 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
...
If it's out of warranty, are you any good with
electrical repairs? Please write back, and we'll
continue the discussion.


Your quoting every single post of his is pointless ... nobody reads all
that!

I read about the top 1/4 to 1/3 of that text.
I saw my very simple question three times. Which
he's not answered with a very simple answer.

Your powers of observation are excellent. In
more than one regard.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

 

[Stormin Mormon]

On 7/14/2016 2:01 PM, Danny D. wrote:

I answered *every* single question that people, including you, asked.

Since you appear to think I know all about your
posting style, I must presume that you there fore
know all about mine. I like a good trim text job.
Leave enough text so we know the question that
goes with the reply. But, sending a dozen or so
quoted replies back through the list is really bad
manners.

With your simple answer to my simple question,
please do a reasonable text trim. Thank you.


--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

 

[Stormin Mormon]

On 7/14/2016 9:10 PM, Danny D. wrote:

On Wed, 13 Jul 2016 07:53:43 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

When you go back and answer my question,
I'll consider answer yours.

As you know, I don't read every thread here.
I just read the threads that I author.

And I respond to EVERY valid question and point.
You know this because I have done this for years.

I just went (again) through each of the two dozen posts you made in this
thread, and I don't see any suggestion that I didn't already do on my own,
nor any question that is unanswered.

Since I prove everything I say, below are the two dozen posts from you in
this thread.

a. Where is a suggestion that I didn't try?
b. Where is there a question I didn't answer?
======================================================================
On 7/8/2016 7:22 PM, Danny D. wrote:
Debugging advice requested.
I have never debugged a refrigerator in my life.
I never even looked at the back of one before.

2010 Sears Kenmore coldspot 106-59422801 refrigerator/freezer just stopped
working at the same time that a periodic "humming and then clicking" noise
started happening.

Inside temperature this morning was 59F degrees in the frig and 49F in the
freezer (outside temperature is about 70F).

Both dial settings are on cold (mid range) where they were always left.
There is no on/off switch that we know about.
Electricity is working (fan and lights are working).

Fan is blowing full time (dunno if it always did that).
http://i.cubeupload.com/dQOTKL.jpg

Coils are at room temperature and are dusty:
http://i.cubeupload.com/jgkVXv.jpg

Compressor may not be turning on (how can we tell)?
http://i.cubeupload.com/p2OiCZ.jpg

No reason to suspect icemaker water supply yet:
http://i.cubeupload.com/myOvgH.jpg

Top of compressor is hot to the touch but not so hot as to burn (but pretty
hot otherwise):
http://i.cubeupload.com/wAX37P.jpg

We hear a humming noise kick on every five minutes for about 10 or 20
seconds and then a click when it shuts off:
http://tinypic.com/r/e6abk7/9

The only things new are the humming noise, and the fact that the
refrigerator and freezer aren't working.

First aim is to figure out how this thing works.
I was expecting to see a "motor" for the black compressor "bulb" but there
is no motor I can see - but the top of the black compressor "bulb" is hot
to the touch - but the coils are not.

I think the solenoid at the compressor "bulb" is what is making the noise.
Any debugging advice?


Sounds just exactly like a bad start relay
on the compressor. This is considered "sealed
system". If you have the owners manual, see
how long is the sealed system warranty. Probably
five years, so you're out of warranty.

If it's out of warranty, are you any good with
electrical repairs? Please write back, and we'll
continue the discussion.
======================================================================
On 7/8/2016 8:31 PM, tom wrote:
"Stormin Mormon" <cayoung61@hotmail.com> wrote in message

Sounds just exactly like a bad start relay
on the compressor. This is considered "sealed
system". If you have the owners manual, see
how long is the sealed system warranty. Probably
five years, so you're out of warranty.

If it's out of warranty, are you any good with
electrical repairs? Please write back, and we'll
continue the discussion.

--
.

I would add that you should unplug the unit until you figure out what is
wrong. In the current condition the OC protection is greatly stressed and
will not last long.


You are so, so right. The compressor will
eventually over heat and might burn out.

Thank you, well said.
======================================================================
On 7/8/2016 8:49 PM, Danny D. wrote:
On Fri, 8 Jul 2016 19:47:38 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Sounds just exactly like a bad start relay
on the compressor. This is considered "sealed
system". If you have the owners manual, see
how long is the sealed system warranty. Probably
five years, so you're out of warranty.

If it's out of warranty, are you any good with
electrical repairs? Please write back, and we'll
continue the discussion.

Thanks for the advice.
The last thing I fixed with your help was the washing machine, who had an
F28/F11 which meant the motor control board was fried.

Before that, it was a non-operational furnace (bad thermistor), and before
that there were a host of things, most of which are working just fine now.

CY: Glad to be some help. Any time (well, figuratively speaking).

I have the frig unplugged to cool the black compressor "sealed system" down
(right now the black top of the "sealed system" is warm to the touch but
not hot).

A few questions of what I should expect, since I'm not sure that I
understand how the thing works yet.

Of course, I know that decompressing fluid freon (or whatever it uses) to a
gas makes the freon cold which makes the pipes that run through the
refrigerator cold, and then recompressing that recirculating gas back to a
liquid creates heat which is blown off by the fan - but I don't know the
mechanics of what I should expect (e.g., what pumps the fluid/gas through
the system? Gravity?).

CY: The big black thing in the back is a compressor.

So I have questions if I may ask...

0. Are there 3 things inside the "sealed unit"?
a. Motor
b. Compressor
c. Solenoid

CY: No, the motor and compressor are inside. The start relay (and some
have a relay and a capacitor) outside the sealed unit. The relay and cap
should never contact refrigerant. That said, the company probably
considers the relay and cap to be part of the sealed system.


1. Is the sealed unit a replaceable part?
http://i.cubeupload.com/wAX37P.jpg (same pic as before)

CY: Yes. Though, it's often not cost effective. Requires refrigerant
pump, brazing, electrical, and more than that. Takes about three hours.


2. Why would the top of the black sealed unit be hot to the touch?

CY: The black sealed unit contains electric windings for the motor. The
unit keeps trying to start the compressor. Amp draw, turns the electric
watts into heat.


3. Is there a motor overheat safety switch that may have tripped?

CY: Yes, that combination amp and temp safety switch is what gives you
the repeated hum click.


4. Are those black coils in the bottom supposed to be warm or cold?
http://i.cubeupload.com/jgkVXv.jpg (same pic as before)
CY: When the refrig is running, warm. They should NEVER get cold.


5. I don't see motion, but the vibrating can be felt on the solenoid on the
OUTSIDE of the sealed unit (it may be translating from inside though). What
is the purpose of that solenoid on the outside of the sealed unit?
http://i.cubeupload.com/p2OiCZ.jpg (same pic as before)

CY: The compressor has two windings. Start, and run. The relay supplies
power to the start winding, and then later power to the run winding.

In an hour or so, when the "sealed unit" has cooled down, I'll plug it back
in and report back.

CY: I'm guessing it will do exactly the same hum click routine.
It's late on the east coast, I'm going to bed.
======================================================================
On 7/8/2016 8:49 PM, Danny D. wrote:

In an hour or so, when the "sealed unit" has cooled down, I'll plug it back
in and report back.


As a Kenmore, you may be able to buy OEM parts, but
if it were my unit, I'd use a universal hard start
kit. Seeing as how I carry them in my vehicle and
use the universal kits at work.
======================================================================
On 7/8/2016 9:26 PM, Danny D. wrote:
On Fri, 8 Jul 2016 18:40:55 -0500, Terry Coombs wrote:

Might be the start cap on the compressor unit - what you're calling a
"bulb" is a hermetically sealed compressor with the motor inside . The click
you're hearing is probably the overload relay .

Is this black rectangle the start cap?
http://i.cubeupload.com/aOLfge.jpg

I disconnected the spring (what is it there for?).
I disconnected the wiring.
I tried to pull the black cap outward.
I tried to pull the gray base outward.

Neither would budge.
Have you removed them before?

Is there a trick to removing them?


To keep these parts from coming off.

Pull straight out from compressor. Might need to
pry with slotted screw driver. Wiggle them back
and forth while pulling.
======================================================================
On 7/8/2016 10:40 PM, Danny D. wrote:

Is it even possible for a homeowner to replace the compressor #28?


No. Sorry, but that takes a lot of skills
that the average HO does not have.
======================================================================
On 7/9/2016 1:27 AM, Danny D. wrote:

So are these my basic choices?
a) capacitor, or
b) relay, or
c) new frig?

Any idea how to test the relay?


d) the suggestion Stormy gave yesterday.

I've never tested a relay. Just replace,
and see if the unit comes back to life.

You may also answer my question, if you wish.
The one I asked yesterday.
======================================================================
On 7/9/2016 12:29 PM, Danny D. wrote:
On Sat, 9 Jul 2016 07:21:31 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

I've never tested a relay. Just replace,
and see if the unit comes back to life.

You may also answer my question, if you
wish. The one I asked yesterday.

Hi Chris,
I answer *all* questions, so I apologize if I missed one of yours.

Thanks to you, I had the courage to pry harder on the combined
"Refrigerator Overload and Start Relay" to pull it off.
http://i.cubeupload.com/ewhAUP.jpg

The "courage" here is better than a shot of whiskey because you give me the
confidence that I just need to try harder!

And, won't prevent you from being a Mormon.
======================================================================
On 7/9/2016 12:49 PM, Danny D. wrote:
On Sat, 9 Jul 2016 12:41:11 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

And, won't prevent you from being a Mormon.

If I become a Mormon, do I have to tell my Italian wife?

CY: Yes, many Italians are Mormons.

Maybe I'll make a deal with her:
Mormon for the refrigerator?

CY: She'll love it!

PS: Is polygamy still allowed?


CY: Not since 1890.
======================================================================
On 7/9/2016 12:47 PM, Danny D. wrote:

We let it cool overnight and reassembled the cap & start relay and plugged
it in a few times. Here is a video of what happened.
http://tinypic.com/r/20ubk3d/9

Can anyone tell, from that video, what is happening?


Yes. I can. Totally what I diagnosed yesterday.
======================================================================
On 7/9/2016 6:50 PM, Danny D. wrote:
On Sat, 09 Jul 2016 12:57:59 -0400, Bob Engelhardt wrote:

Yep - this video is telling the same story as the first one: the motor
tries to start & the overload clicks open when it overheats from the
excessive current. (It's probably a bimetal leaf.)


The guy at the parts store showed me a type of relay that has a
semiconductor disc inside which shatters, and when you shake the relay, if
it's broken, it rattles.

The one he had on the counter rattled, but he said mine isn't that kind
(probably a bimetallic strip as you said).

He really talked me out of buying both parts. They were each about 50
bucks, and he said I'd just be unhappy. So he sent me home to do some more
diagnostics with a test cable, which I'm gonna make now.


Danny, are my posts making it through your server?
======================================================================
On 7/9/2016 6:48 PM, Danny D. wrote:
On Sat, 09 Jul 2016 10:20:40 -0700, Oren wrote:

My memory fails. Awhile back there was a link or video about the
sequence of how you test the pins. No clue if it is accurate or
correct.

Blank stare:

1) Bottom two pins

2) Bottom right and top

3) Top and Bottom left
--

Went to a great appliance store in San Jose where the guy behind the
counter tested the cap and said it was good.

He said the compressor not working could be three things:
1. Bad compressor
2. Bad relay
3. Restriction in the freon lines

He strongly suggested I not buy his relay from him before testing it, and
he explained how the relay works (the white part is the thermal switch by
the way).

He said to plug in the power to the relay (two spades) and check that the
backside of the relay (3 pins) has power to common.

To do this, he told me to create a test jig where I can put 120 volts to
the Start and Main/Run pins of the compressor, with the neutral on the
common pin, and then pull off the start once the compressor starts.

He said if the compressor doesn't start - then that's it for the frig.

So I went home empty handed and then picked up some alligator clips,
spades, and butt connectors and am slapping together a test jig as we type.
The wife and sister were very unhappy that I came home, essentially, empty
handed. But the guy was right that I didn't do enough diagnostics.

The test jig will have two spades on the incoming end, which will plug into
the existing power cable (hot and neutral), and then it will have three
outputs which will be tube-connectors (two hots and one neutral).

The procedure will be:
1. Unplug power
2. Hook two male spades to female spades in power cord
3. Hook a butt plug to Start (hot) and to Run/Main (hot) and to neutral
4. Plug it in
5. Yank off the start wire as soon as the compressor starts

If the compressor starts, then it's good.
If not ...

Danny, are my posts making it to you,
through your server? You've not answered
my question. And you're going through a
lot of bother which isn't really needed.

But, did you ever do any thing simple?

I leave you to your complications.
======================================================================
On 7/9/2016 6:48 PM, Danny D. wrote:
On Sat, 09 Jul 2016 10:20:40 -0700, Oren wrote:

My memory fails. Awhile back there was a link or video about the
sequence of how you test the pins. No clue if it is accurate or
correct.

Blank stare:

1) Bottom two pins

2) Bottom right and top

3) Top and Bottom left
--

Went to a great appliance store in San Jose where the guy behind the
counter tested the cap and said it was good.

He said the compressor not working could be three things:
1. Bad compressor
2. Bad relay
3. Restriction in the freon lines

He strongly suggested I not buy his relay from him before testing it, and
he explained how the relay works (the white part is the thermal switch by
the way).

He said to plug in the power to the relay (two spades) and check that the
backside of the relay (3 pins) has power to common.

To do this, he told me to create a test jig where I can put 120 volts to
the Start and Main/Run pins of the compressor, with the neutral on the
common pin, and then pull off the start once the compressor starts.

He said if the compressor doesn't start - then that's it for the frig.

So I went home empty handed and then picked up some alligator clips,
spades, and butt connectors and am slapping together a test jig as we type.
The wife and sister were very unhappy that I came home, essentially, empty
handed. But the guy was right that I didn't do enough diagnostics.

The test jig will have two spades on the incoming end, which will plug into
the existing power cable (hot and neutral), and then it will have three
outputs which will be tube-connectors (two hots and one neutral).

The procedure will be:
1. Unplug power
2. Hook two male spades to female spades in power cord
3. Hook a butt plug to Start (hot) and to Run/Main (hot) and to neutral
4. Plug it in
5. Yank off the start wire as soon as the compressor starts

If the compressor starts, then it's good.
If not ...

Danny, are my posts making it to you, through your server?
You've not answered my question.
And you're going through a lot of bother which isn't really needed.
But, did you ever do any thing simple?
I leave you to your complications.
======================================================================
On 7/12/2016 3:22 PM, Danny D. wrote:
On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 11:36:19 -0400, tom wrote:

The drawing looks correct.

I don't think it is a restriction in the gas circuit. Leaving the unit sit
for a day would most likely let the pressures to equalize.

It might be a mechanical issue like a reed valve broken and jamming the
piston.

I don't know any other way to test for "mechanical" operation of the
compressor.


Pump out all the refrigerant.
Saw the top off the compressor.
After the inspection, weld the compressor using a gas tight "bead" of weld.
Replace the refrigerant.

No problem for you, right?
======================================================================
On 7/12/2016 5:26 PM, tom wrote:
There are "hard start" compressor starters available that might be worth
looking at.




Don't bother. I suggested that a week ago,
and Danny totally ignored me. And ignored
my hints and reminders.

======================================================================
On 7/12/2016 7:08 PM, Bob Engelhardt wrote:
On 7/12/2016 6:35 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Don't bother. I suggested that a week ago,
and Danny totally ignored me. And ignored
my hints and reminders.

Actually, I don't think that you did. You probably meant to, but were
too pissed from his ignoring you.



Think I remember at least one reminder. Well,
moot point. He's gone so far afield on so many
directions, there's no contacting him, now.
======================================================================
On 7/12/2016 10:57 PM, Danny D. wrote:
On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 21:53:52 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Think I remember at least one reminder. Well,
moot point. He's gone so far afield on so many
directions, there's no contacting him, now.

I think I tried *every* suggestion ever made in this thread.

Here's yours, but I don't remember it being suggested until today.
http://i.cubeupload.com/ja5XaK.jpg


You never answered my question, and I never
made any suggestions what to do. Other than
suggesting you answer my question so we can
move on.
======================================================================
On 7/12/2016 10:47 PM, Danny D. wrote:
On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 18:35:48 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Don't bother. I suggested that a week ago,
and Danny totally ignored me. And ignored
my hints and reminders.

You mean this?
http://i.cubeupload.com/VD0haS.jp


"not found" is what the web page says.
======================================================================
On 7/12/2016 10:47 PM, Danny D. wrote:
On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 18:35:48 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Don't bother. I suggested that a week ago,
and Danny totally ignored me. And ignored
my hints and reminders.

You mean this?
http://i.cubeupload.com/VD0haS.jpg


I added a g to the end of the URL, and got
a picture. I can't comment on that, until
you answer my question.
======================================================================
On 7/12/2016 11:21 PM, Danny D. wrote:
On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 22:53:09 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

I added a g to the end of the URL, and got
a picture. I can't comment on that, until
you answer my question.

Ooops. Mea culpa. Sorry about that missing "g".

It should have been:
http://i.cubeupload.com/VD0haS.jpg

Ummmmm... what question?

But I have a question for you.
How do you respond so quickly?

I have to sit down at the computer to even see a message, so, I don't see
them in real time. Do you have something that goes to your phone?

Coincidence. I'm on the east coast, and
spend a bit of time on the computer in
the evenings.

What question? I only asked twice.
======================================================================
On 7/13/2016 12:56 AM, Danny D. wrote:

Good news, and odd news.

1. I let it cool down for 1/2 hour and then when I plugged the Supco RC0410
1/4-to-1/3 HP 120VAC "3n1 Start" Solid State Relay Overload Start Capacitor
Combination unit in to the mains, the compressor started again!

2. I left the connections to the motor where they were, which seemed to
match our assumption that the top was the COMMON, and the forward-facing
bottom was the START and the rearward facing bottom was the RUN/MARK
connection.
http://i.cubeupload.com/YMMqW4.jpg

3. You'll notice I am not using the original power cord, so I have the rest
of the frig (including condenser the fan) on its own power supply and the
Supco RC0410 hard-start cap on its own power cord.
http://i.cubeupload.com/yiOL3g.jpg

3. With the Ammeter on the 15Amp scale, when the compressor was running,
the current on the black COMMON lead was about 3 amps.
http://i.cubeupload.com/GLn0bK.jpg

4. To doublecheck, I checked the current on the input cord neutrals, which
was also 3 Amps (not surprisingly):
http://i.cubeupload.com/k7D1Th.jpg

5. When the compressor was starting, the current on the START lead jumped a
bit (maybe double the 3 amps?) and then instantly settled down to zero amps
(or very slightly above zero amps).
http://i.cubeupload.com/5vR3jy.jpg

6. Then the compressor ran for about 10 or 20 minutes, getting very hot to
the touch, where the output (thin) line was hot enough to burn my
fingertips and even the input (thick) copper line was warm to the touch
(and the refrigerator began to get noticeably cooler inside the doors).

7. After 10 or 15 or so minutes of running, the compressor began to hum
instead of work causing 11 amps to flow through the COMMON lead, and then
the relay clicked off (is that supposed to happen?).
http://i.cubeupload.com/9TNB1Q.jpg

8. Then the compressor turned back on, after about 10 minutes, and worked
for a much shorter period of time, before turning off again (maybe fewer
than five minutes).

Is it normal for a compressor to shut off after getting very hot after
working for only about 10 minutes?

Is it OK to have the frig temporarily on two power cords?
a. One for the fan and the rest of the frig
b. One just for the compressor


If you'd done what I said, and played along,
this could have been fixed last week. Hope
you are enjoying your self.

======================================================================
On 7/13/2016 1:09 PM, Danny D. wrote:
On Wed, 13 Jul 2016 07:56:28 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

If you'd done what I said, and played along,
this could have been fixed last week. Hope
you are enjoying your self.

I don't see why you're so angry.

I'm trying to fix the frig while keeping my sister from saying "I told you
so" and while my wife is constantly asking me when she can have her kitchen
back.

I've never even *looked* at the back of a frig before (although I know
basic refrigeration theory from high-school chemistry).

The 1/2-to-1/3HP hard-start cap isn't working.

Half the time it starts the compressor, and half the time it does NOT start
the compressor.


Yes, it's obvious that you don't see.
======================================================================
On 7/13/2016 10:00 PM, Danny D. wrote:
On Wed, 13 Jul 2016 19:42:21 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Yes, it's obvious that you don't see.

Here's the thing.
I'm obviously not an engineer nor a tech.
I'm just a guy.

I had never looked at the back of a frig in my life before.
I ask you guys for help because the frig is a riddle to me.
I don't need more riddles though.


When you run into a problem, you can either
do things differently, or force harder, using
the technique which has failed up to that point.

I offered you (repeatedly) a chance to do
differently, and you ignored me repeatedly.
This post is an example of trying to force
your failing techniques even harder, and
trying to force me to participate with your
failings. I'll have you know, that I viewed
NONE of the links, and barely read your text.

By way of references, I've been working on
domstic refrigerators for over 10 years. I'm
fairly sure that if you'd done what I said,
it would have been fixed several days ago.
I'm also fairly sure I know why your compressor
keeps going off.
======================================================================
On 7/14/2016 2:01 PM, Danny D. wrote:

I answered *every* single question that people, including you, asked.



Nope. And, I asked twice.
======================================================================
On 7/14/2016 2:01 PM, Danny D. wrote:
I can't be any more blunt (and I don't do riddles).

No more riddles please. Just straight talk.
1. What is your question?
2. What is your suggestion?


It's under this header, and also under
subject line of "Debug advice, and a
question for Danny D".
======================================================================
On 7/13/2016 2:02 AM, Danny D. wrote:
I was throwing away the frig as of this morning, so, there was no need to
clean the condenser coil. I guess I'll clean it now - although do you
really thing *that* is what is making the compressor cycle?


When you go back and answer my question,
I'll consider answer yours.
======================================================================
======================================================================

I saw it three times. It was (is) a VERY
simple question, and asks for a VERY
simple answer.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

 

[Stormin Mormon]

On 7/14/2016 9:33 PM, Danny D. wrote:

On Wed, 13 Jul 2016 07:52:43 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Why spend any more time on a guy who's not serious?
I'm to the point where I glance at and delete the
posts with little attention to what he's playing
with.

How can you say such a thing?
You don't seem to be seriously trying to answer the two questions I asked
you.

I asked you a simple question.
I'm waiting.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

 

[Stormin Mormon]

On 7/14/2016 9:22 PM, Danny D. wrote:

On Sat, 9 Jul 2016 20:23:36 +0100, Gareth Magennis wrote:

Since you missed the question the first time.

Here are all the posts from you in the relevant thread.
I know of no questions you asked in that relevant thread that I didn't
answer.
And I know of no suggestions from you in that relevant thread that I
haven't already tried.

What I know is not there is an explanation of why the compressor might
start with the hard-start cap 2 out of 20 times.

It pulls 3 amps when it runs; 13.5 amps when it's locked.
The LRA is 17.6 amps.

What do you make of that?

--------------------------------
======================================================================
On 7/8/2016 7:22 PM, Danny D. wrote:
Debugging advice requested.
I have never debugged a refrigerator in my life.
I never even looked at the back of one before.

2010 Sears Kenmore coldspot 106-59422801 refrigerator/freezer just stopped
working at the same time that a periodic "humming and then clicking" noise
started happening.

Inside temperature this morning was 59F degrees in the frig and 49F in the
freezer (outside temperature is about 70F).

Both dial settings are on cold (mid range) where they were always left.
There is no on/off switch that we know about.
Electricity is working (fan and lights are working).

Fan is blowing full time (dunno if it always did that).
http://i.cubeupload.com/dQOTKL.jpg

Coils are at room temperature and are dusty:
http://i.cubeupload.com/jgkVXv.jpg

Compressor may not be turning on (how can we tell)?
http://i.cubeupload.com/p2OiCZ.jpg

No reason to suspect icemaker water supply yet:
http://i.cubeupload.com/myOvgH.jpg

Top of compressor is hot to the touch but not so hot as to burn (but pretty
hot otherwise):
http://i.cubeupload.com/wAX37P.jpg

We hear a humming noise kick on every five minutes for about 10 or 20
seconds and then a click when it shuts off:
http://tinypic.com/r/e6abk7/9

The only things new are the humming noise, and the fact that the
refrigerator and freezer aren't working.

First aim is to figure out how this thing works.
I was expecting to see a "motor" for the black compressor "bulb" but there
is no motor I can see - but the top of the black compressor "bulb" is hot
to the touch - but the coils are not.

I think the solenoid at the compressor "bulb" is what is making the noise.
Any debugging advice?


Sounds just exactly like a bad start relay
on the compressor. This is considered "sealed
system". If you have the owners manual, see
how long is the sealed system warranty. Probably
five years, so you're out of warranty.

If it's out of warranty, are you any good with
electrical repairs? Please write back, and we'll
continue the discussion.
======================================================================
On 7/8/2016 8:31 PM, tom wrote:
"Stormin Mormon" <cayoung61@hotmail.com> wrote in message

Sounds just exactly like a bad start relay
on the compressor. This is considered "sealed
system". If you have the owners manual, see
how long is the sealed system warranty. Probably
five years, so you're out of warranty.

If it's out of warranty, are you any good with
electrical repairs? Please write back, and we'll
continue the discussion.

--
.

I would add that you should unplug the unit until you figure out what is
wrong. In the current condition the OC protection is greatly stressed and
will not last long.


You are so, so right. The compressor will
eventually over heat and might burn out.

Thank you, well said.
======================================================================
On 7/8/2016 8:49 PM, Danny D. wrote:
On Fri, 8 Jul 2016 19:47:38 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Sounds just exactly like a bad start relay
on the compressor. This is considered "sealed
system". If you have the owners manual, see
how long is the sealed system warranty. Probably
five years, so you're out of warranty.

If it's out of warranty, are you any good with
electrical repairs? Please write back, and we'll
continue the discussion.

Thanks for the advice.
The last thing I fixed with your help was the washing machine, who had an
F28/F11 which meant the motor control board was fried.

Before that, it was a non-operational furnace (bad thermistor), and before
that there were a host of things, most of which are working just fine now.

CY: Glad to be some help. Any time (well, figuratively speaking).

I have the frig unplugged to cool the black compressor "sealed system" down
(right now the black top of the "sealed system" is warm to the touch but
not hot).

A few questions of what I should expect, since I'm not sure that I
understand how the thing works yet.

Of course, I know that decompressing fluid freon (or whatever it uses) to a
gas makes the freon cold which makes the pipes that run through the
refrigerator cold, and then recompressing that recirculating gas back to a
liquid creates heat which is blown off by the fan - but I don't know the
mechanics of what I should expect (e.g., what pumps the fluid/gas through
the system? Gravity?).

CY: The big black thing in the back is a compressor.

So I have questions if I may ask...

0. Are there 3 things inside the "sealed unit"?
a. Motor
b. Compressor
c. Solenoid

CY: No, the motor and compressor are inside. The start relay (and some
have a relay and a capacitor) outside the sealed unit. The relay and cap
should never contact refrigerant. That said, the company probably
considers the relay and cap to be part of the sealed system.


1. Is the sealed unit a replaceable part?
http://i.cubeupload.com/wAX37P.jpg (same pic as before)

CY: Yes. Though, it's often not cost effective. Requires refrigerant
pump, brazing, electrical, and more than that. Takes about three hours.


2. Why would the top of the black sealed unit be hot to the touch?

CY: The black sealed unit contains electric windings for the motor. The
unit keeps trying to start the compressor. Amp draw, turns the electric
watts into heat.


3. Is there a motor overheat safety switch that may have tripped?

CY: Yes, that combination amp and temp safety switch is what gives you
the repeated hum click.


4. Are those black coils in the bottom supposed to be warm or cold?
http://i.cubeupload.com/jgkVXv.jpg (same pic as before)
CY: When the refrig is running, warm. They should NEVER get cold.


5. I don't see motion, but the vibrating can be felt on the solenoid on the
OUTSIDE of the sealed unit (it may be translating from inside though). What
is the purpose of that solenoid on the outside of the sealed unit?
http://i.cubeupload.com/p2OiCZ.jpg (same pic as before)

CY: The compressor has two windings. Start, and run. The relay supplies
power to the start winding, and then later power to the run winding.

In an hour or so, when the "sealed unit" has cooled down, I'll plug it back
in and report back.

CY: I'm guessing it will do exactly the same hum click routine.
It's late on the east coast, I'm going to bed.
======================================================================
On 7/8/2016 8:49 PM, Danny D. wrote:

In an hour or so, when the "sealed unit" has cooled down, I'll plug it back
in and report back.


As a Kenmore, you may be able to buy OEM parts, but
if it were my unit, I'd use a universal hard start
kit. Seeing as how I carry them in my vehicle and
use the universal kits at work.
======================================================================
On 7/8/2016 9:26 PM, Danny D. wrote:
On Fri, 8 Jul 2016 18:40:55 -0500, Terry Coombs wrote:

Might be the start cap on the compressor unit - what you're calling a
"bulb" is a hermetically sealed compressor with the motor inside . The click
you're hearing is probably the overload relay .

Is this black rectangle the start cap?
http://i.cubeupload.com/aOLfge.jpg

I disconnected the spring (what is it there for?).
I disconnected the wiring.
I tried to pull the black cap outward.
I tried to pull the gray base outward.

Neither would budge.
Have you removed them before?

Is there a trick to removing them?


To keep these parts from coming off.

Pull straight out from compressor. Might need to
pry with slotted screw driver. Wiggle them back
and forth while pulling.
======================================================================
On 7/8/2016 10:40 PM, Danny D. wrote:

Is it even possible for a homeowner to replace the compressor #28?


No. Sorry, but that takes a lot of skills
that the average HO does not have.
======================================================================
On 7/9/2016 1:27 AM, Danny D. wrote:

So are these my basic choices?
a) capacitor, or
b) relay, or
c) new frig?

Any idea how to test the relay?


d) the suggestion Stormy gave yesterday.

I've never tested a relay. Just replace,
and see if the unit comes back to life.

You may also answer my question, if you wish.
The one I asked yesterday.
======================================================================
On 7/9/2016 12:29 PM, Danny D. wrote:
On Sat, 9 Jul 2016 07:21:31 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

I've never tested a relay. Just replace,
and see if the unit comes back to life.

You may also answer my question, if you
wish. The one I asked yesterday.

Hi Chris,
I answer *all* questions, so I apologize if I missed one of yours.

Thanks to you, I had the courage to pry harder on the combined
"Refrigerator Overload and Start Relay" to pull it off.
http://i.cubeupload.com/ewhAUP.jpg

The "courage" here is better than a shot of whiskey because you give me the
confidence that I just need to try harder!

And, won't prevent you from being a Mormon.
======================================================================
On 7/9/2016 12:49 PM, Danny D. wrote:
On Sat, 9 Jul 2016 12:41:11 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

And, won't prevent you from being a Mormon.

If I become a Mormon, do I have to tell my Italian wife?

CY: Yes, many Italians are Mormons.

Maybe I'll make a deal with her:
Mormon for the refrigerator?

CY: She'll love it!

PS: Is polygamy still allowed?


CY: Not since 1890.
======================================================================
On 7/9/2016 12:47 PM, Danny D. wrote:

We let it cool overnight and reassembled the cap & start relay and plugged
it in a few times. Here is a video of what happened.
http://tinypic.com/r/20ubk3d/9

Can anyone tell, from that video, what is happening?


Yes. I can. Totally what I diagnosed yesterday.
======================================================================
On 7/9/2016 6:50 PM, Danny D. wrote:
On Sat, 09 Jul 2016 12:57:59 -0400, Bob Engelhardt wrote:

Yep - this video is telling the same story as the first one: the motor
tries to start & the overload clicks open when it overheats from the
excessive current. (It's probably a bimetal leaf.)


The guy at the parts store showed me a type of relay that has a
semiconductor disc inside which shatters, and when you shake the relay, if
it's broken, it rattles.

The one he had on the counter rattled, but he said mine isn't that kind
(probably a bimetallic strip as you said).

He really talked me out of buying both parts. They were each about 50
bucks, and he said I'd just be unhappy. So he sent me home to do some more
diagnostics with a test cable, which I'm gonna make now.


Danny, are my posts making it through your server?
======================================================================
On 7/9/2016 6:48 PM, Danny D. wrote:
On Sat, 09 Jul 2016 10:20:40 -0700, Oren wrote:

My memory fails. Awhile back there was a link or video about the
sequence of how you test the pins. No clue if it is accurate or
correct.

Blank stare:

1) Bottom two pins

2) Bottom right and top

3) Top and Bottom left
--

Went to a great appliance store in San Jose where the guy behind the
counter tested the cap and said it was good.

He said the compressor not working could be three things:
1. Bad compressor
2. Bad relay
3. Restriction in the freon lines

He strongly suggested I not buy his relay from him before testing it, and
he explained how the relay works (the white part is the thermal switch by
the way).

He said to plug in the power to the relay (two spades) and check that the
backside of the relay (3 pins) has power to common.

To do this, he told me to create a test jig where I can put 120 volts to
the Start and Main/Run pins of the compressor, with the neutral on the
common pin, and then pull off the start once the compressor starts.

He said if the compressor doesn't start - then that's it for the frig.

So I went home empty handed and then picked up some alligator clips,
spades, and butt connectors and am slapping together a test jig as we type.
The wife and sister were very unhappy that I came home, essentially, empty
handed. But the guy was right that I didn't do enough diagnostics.

The test jig will have two spades on the incoming end, which will plug into
the existing power cable (hot and neutral), and then it will have three
outputs which will be tube-connectors (two hots and one neutral).

The procedure will be:
1. Unplug power
2. Hook two male spades to female spades in power cord
3. Hook a butt plug to Start (hot) and to Run/Main (hot) and to neutral
4. Plug it in
5. Yank off the start wire as soon as the compressor starts

If the compressor starts, then it's good.
If not ...

Danny, are my posts making it to you,
through your server? You've not answered
my question. And you're going through a
lot of bother which isn't really needed.

But, did you ever do any thing simple?

I leave you to your complications.
======================================================================
On 7/9/2016 6:48 PM, Danny D. wrote:
On Sat, 09 Jul 2016 10:20:40 -0700, Oren wrote:

My memory fails. Awhile back there was a link or video about the
sequence of how you test the pins. No clue if it is accurate or
correct.

Blank stare:

1) Bottom two pins

2) Bottom right and top

3) Top and Bottom left
--

Went to a great appliance store in San Jose where the guy behind the
counter tested the cap and said it was good.

He said the compressor not working could be three things:
1. Bad compressor
2. Bad relay
3. Restriction in the freon lines

He strongly suggested I not buy his relay from him before testing it, and
he explained how the relay works (the white part is the thermal switch by
the way).

He said to plug in the power to the relay (two spades) and check that the
backside of the relay (3 pins) has power to common.

To do this, he told me to create a test jig where I can put 120 volts to
the Start and Main/Run pins of the compressor, with the neutral on the
common pin, and then pull off the start once the compressor starts.

He said if the compressor doesn't start - then that's it for the frig.

So I went home empty handed and then picked up some alligator clips,
spades, and butt connectors and am slapping together a test jig as we type.
The wife and sister were very unhappy that I came home, essentially, empty
handed. But the guy was right that I didn't do enough diagnostics.

The test jig will have two spades on the incoming end, which will plug into
the existing power cable (hot and neutral), and then it will have three
outputs which will be tube-connectors (two hots and one neutral).

The procedure will be:
1. Unplug power
2. Hook two male spades to female spades in power cord
3. Hook a butt plug to Start (hot) and to Run/Main (hot) and to neutral
4. Plug it in
5. Yank off the start wire as soon as the compressor starts

If the compressor starts, then it's good.
If not ...

Danny, are my posts making it to you, through your server?
You've not answered my question.
And you're going through a lot of bother which isn't really needed.
But, did you ever do any thing simple?
I leave you to your complications.
======================================================================
On 7/12/2016 3:22 PM, Danny D. wrote:
On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 11:36:19 -0400, tom wrote:

The drawing looks correct.

I don't think it is a restriction in the gas circuit. Leaving the unit sit
for a day would most likely let the pressures to equalize.

It might be a mechanical issue like a reed valve broken and jamming the
piston.

I don't know any other way to test for "mechanical" operation of the
compressor.


Pump out all the refrigerant.
Saw the top off the compressor.
After the inspection, weld the compressor using a gas tight "bead" of weld.
Replace the refrigerant.

No problem for you, right?
======================================================================
On 7/12/2016 5:26 PM, tom wrote:
There are "hard start" compressor starters available that might be worth
looking at.




Don't bother. I suggested that a week ago,
and Danny totally ignored me. And ignored
my hints and reminders.

======================================================================
On 7/12/2016 7:08 PM, Bob Engelhardt wrote:
On 7/12/2016 6:35 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Don't bother. I suggested that a week ago,
and Danny totally ignored me. And ignored
my hints and reminders.

Actually, I don't think that you did. You probably meant to, but were
too pissed from his ignoring you.



Think I remember at least one reminder. Well,
moot point. He's gone so far afield on so many
directions, there's no contacting him, now.
======================================================================
On 7/12/2016 10:57 PM, Danny D. wrote:
On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 21:53:52 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Think I remember at least one reminder. Well,
moot point. He's gone so far afield on so many
directions, there's no contacting him, now.

I think I tried *every* suggestion ever made in this thread.

Here's yours, but I don't remember it being suggested until today.
http://i.cubeupload.com/ja5XaK.jpg


You never answered my question, and I never
made any suggestions what to do. Other than
suggesting you answer my question so we can
move on.
======================================================================
On 7/12/2016 10:47 PM, Danny D. wrote:
On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 18:35:48 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Don't bother. I suggested that a week ago,
and Danny totally ignored me. And ignored
my hints and reminders.

You mean this?
http://i.cubeupload.com/VD0haS.jp


"not found" is what the web page says.
======================================================================
On 7/12/2016 10:47 PM, Danny D. wrote:
On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 18:35:48 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Don't bother. I suggested that a week ago,
and Danny totally ignored me. And ignored
my hints and reminders.

You mean this?
http://i.cubeupload.com/VD0haS.jpg


I added a g to the end of the URL, and got
a picture. I can't comment on that, until
you answer my question.
======================================================================
On 7/12/2016 11:21 PM, Danny D. wrote:
On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 22:53:09 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

I added a g to the end of the URL, and got
a picture. I can't comment on that, until
you answer my question.

Ooops. Mea culpa. Sorry about that missing "g".

It should have been:
http://i.cubeupload.com/VD0haS.jpg

Ummmmm... what question?

But I have a question for you.
How do you respond so quickly?

I have to sit down at the computer to even see a message, so, I don't see
them in real time. Do you have something that goes to your phone?

Coincidence. I'm on the east coast, and
spend a bit of time on the computer in
the evenings.

What question? I only asked twice.
======================================================================
On 7/13/2016 12:56 AM, Danny D. wrote:

Good news, and odd news.

1. I let it cool down for 1/2 hour and then when I plugged the Supco RC0410
1/4-to-1/3 HP 120VAC "3n1 Start" Solid State Relay Overload Start Capacitor
Combination unit in to the mains, the compressor started again!

2. I left the connections to the motor where they were, which seemed to
match our assumption that the top was the COMMON, and the forward-facing
bottom was the START and the rearward facing bottom was the RUN/MARK
connection.
http://i.cubeupload.com/YMMqW4.jpg

3. You'll notice I am not using the original power cord, so I have the rest
of the frig (including condenser the fan) on its own power supply and the
Supco RC0410 hard-start cap on its own power cord.
http://i.cubeupload.com/yiOL3g.jpg

3. With the Ammeter on the 15Amp scale, when the compressor was running,
the current on the black COMMON lead was about 3 amps.
http://i.cubeupload.com/GLn0bK.jpg

4. To doublecheck, I checked the current on the input cord neutrals, which
was also 3 Amps (not surprisingly):
http://i.cubeupload.com/k7D1Th.jpg

5. When the compressor was starting, the current on the START lead jumped a
bit (maybe double the 3 amps?) and then instantly settled down to zero amps
(or very slightly above zero amps).
http://i.cubeupload.com/5vR3jy.jpg

6. Then the compressor ran for about 10 or 20 minutes, getting very hot to
the touch, where the output (thin) line was hot enough to burn my
fingertips and even the input (thick) copper line was warm to the touch
(and the refrigerator began to get noticeably cooler inside the doors).

7. After 10 or 15 or so minutes of running, the compressor began to hum
instead of work causing 11 amps to flow through the COMMON lead, and then
the relay clicked off (is that supposed to happen?).
http://i.cubeupload.com/9TNB1Q.jpg

8. Then the compressor turned back on, after about 10 minutes, and worked
for a much shorter period of time, before turning off again (maybe fewer
than five minutes).

Is it normal for a compressor to shut off after getting very hot after
working for only about 10 minutes?

Is it OK to have the frig temporarily on two power cords?
a. One for the fan and the rest of the frig
b. One just for the compressor


If you'd done what I said, and played along,
this could have been fixed last week. Hope
you are enjoying your self.

======================================================================
On 7/13/2016 1:09 PM, Danny D. wrote:
On Wed, 13 Jul 2016 07:56:28 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

If you'd done what I said, and played along,
this could have been fixed last week. Hope
you are enjoying your self.

I don't see why you're so angry.

I'm trying to fix the frig while keeping my sister from saying "I told you
so" and while my wife is constantly asking me when she can have her kitchen
back.

I've never even *looked* at the back of a frig before (although I know
basic refrigeration theory from high-school chemistry).

The 1/2-to-1/3HP hard-start cap isn't working.

Half the time it starts the compressor, and half the time it does NOT start
the compressor.


Yes, it's obvious that you don't see.
======================================================================
On 7/13/2016 10:00 PM, Danny D. wrote:
On Wed, 13 Jul 2016 19:42:21 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Yes, it's obvious that you don't see.

Here's the thing.
I'm obviously not an engineer nor a tech.
I'm just a guy.

I had never looked at the back of a frig in my life before.
I ask you guys for help because the frig is a riddle to me.
I don't need more riddles though.


When you run into a problem, you can either
do things differently, or force harder, using
the technique which has failed up to that point.

I offered you (repeatedly) a chance to do
differently, and you ignored me repeatedly.
This post is an example of trying to force
your failing techniques even harder, and
trying to force me to participate with your
failings. I'll have you know, that I viewed
NONE of the links, and barely read your text.

By way of references, I've been working on
domstic refrigerators for over 10 years. I'm
fairly sure that if you'd done what I said,
it would have been fixed several days ago.
I'm also fairly sure I know why your compressor
keeps going off.
======================================================================
On 7/14/2016 2:01 PM, Danny D. wrote:

I answered *every* single question that people, including you, asked.



Nope. And, I asked twice.
======================================================================
On 7/14/2016 2:01 PM, Danny D. wrote:
I can't be any more blunt (and I don't do riddles).

No more riddles please. Just straight talk.
1. What is your question?
2. What is your suggestion?


It's under this header, and also under
subject line of "Debug advice, and a
question for Danny D".
======================================================================
On 7/13/2016 2:02 AM, Danny D. wrote:
I was throwing away the frig as of this morning, so, there was no need to
clean the condenser coil. I guess I'll clean it now - although do you
really thing *that* is what is making the compressor cycle?


When you go back and answer my question,
I'll consider answer yours.
======================================================================
======================================================================

I glanced at the top third, or so, of
this lengthy overkill. You really run
on and on, you're lucky I read that much.
I saw my (yet unanswered) question three
times in the first third or so of this.
It's a simple question, and I'm looking
for a simple answer, not a lengthy rambling
on and on.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

 

[Stormin Mormon]

On 7/14/2016 9:31 PM, Danny D. wrote:

On Wed, 13 Jul 2016 07:52:43 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

On 7/13/2016 1:51 AM, tom wrote:

For the last time, did you clean the dust off the condenser coil? That's
important.


Please realize that Danny D claims to answer all
questions, but usually ignores the important
questions, even when asked several times. Danny
D appears to pick and choose what he sees, and
what he does. Even though he says I've helped
diagnose a couple of problems for him over the
years, he's lost my help on this refrig issue.
I can see a couple things that may very well be
big problems (and some simple things he can do).
But, not until he goes back and answers the
questions I've asked two or three times.

"for the last time" is a very wise thing to write.
I hope you keep your own word, and stop feeding
into this guy's analysis pyralysis.

If it had been my refrigerator, it would have
been fixed and running, long time ago. Danny D
doesn't appear to want it fixed, he's just doing
break down, analysis, flow charts, web pictures,
and videos.

Why spend any more time on a guy who's not serious?
I'm to the point where I glance at and delete the
posts with little attention to what he's playing
with.

There are pictures galore of me not only dusting off the compressor coils,
but also blowing 100psi compressed air, and even a story about how my
sister saw all the dust that came out streamed across the kitchen floor for
more than 10 feet.

There are also pictures of the coils very clean and they aren't and never
were the problem, simply because dusty coils can not cause a compressor not
to start. They can cause a compressor to work harder and overheat (simply
because they're not cooling - but they can't possibly cause a compressor
not to start).

As for picking and choosing, I read *all* posts in the threads that I
author, and I respond to all valid posts in the threads I author.

I have been doing this for years in this newsgroup, so you know this.
I also do not respond to threads that I don't author, which also you should
know by now (simply becuase I have almost never done it).

The only reason I even saw this thread is that SM said that he asked a
question and I tried to find what the heck he was talking about.

I still haven't found the question he says is unanswered, and even more
importantly, I still haven't found any suggestion from him that isn't what
I already did long ago.

Here are all the posts from him in that thread - none of which contain an
unanswered question or an untried suggestion.
======================================================================
On 7/8/2016 7:22 PM, Danny D. wrote:
Debugging advice requested.
I have never debugged a refrigerator in my life.
I never even looked at the back of one before.

2010 Sears Kenmore coldspot 106-59422801 refrigerator/freezer just stopped
working at the same time that a periodic "humming and then clicking" noise
started happening.

Inside temperature this morning was 59F degrees in the frig and 49F in the
freezer (outside temperature is about 70F).

Both dial settings are on cold (mid range) where they were always left.
There is no on/off switch that we know about.
Electricity is working (fan and lights are working).

Fan is blowing full time (dunno if it always did that).
http://i.cubeupload.com/dQOTKL.jpg

Coils are at room temperature and are dusty:
http://i.cubeupload.com/jgkVXv.jpg

Compressor may not be turning on (how can we tell)?
http://i.cubeupload.com/p2OiCZ.jpg

No reason to suspect icemaker water supply yet:
http://i.cubeupload.com/myOvgH.jpg

Top of compressor is hot to the touch but not so hot as to burn (but pretty
hot otherwise):
http://i.cubeupload.com/wAX37P.jpg

We hear a humming noise kick on every five minutes for about 10 or 20
seconds and then a click when it shuts off:
http://tinypic.com/r/e6abk7/9

The only things new are the humming noise, and the fact that the
refrigerator and freezer aren't working.

First aim is to figure out how this thing works.
I was expecting to see a "motor" for the black compressor "bulb" but there
is no motor I can see - but the top of the black compressor "bulb" is hot
to the touch - but the coils are not.

I think the solenoid at the compressor "bulb" is what is making the noise.
Any debugging advice?


Sounds just exactly like a bad start relay
on the compressor. This is considered "sealed
system". If you have the owners manual, see
how long is the sealed system warranty. Probably
five years, so you're out of warranty.

If it's out of warranty, are you any good with
electrical repairs? Please write back, and we'll
continue the discussion.
======================================================================
On 7/8/2016 8:31 PM, tom wrote:
"Stormin Mormon" <cayoung61@hotmail.com> wrote in message

Sounds just exactly like a bad start relay
on the compressor. This is considered "sealed
system". If you have the owners manual, see
how long is the sealed system warranty. Probably
five years, so you're out of warranty.

If it's out of warranty, are you any good with
electrical repairs? Please write back, and we'll
continue the discussion.

--
.

I would add that you should unplug the unit until you figure out what is
wrong. In the current condition the OC protection is greatly stressed and
will not last long.


You are so, so right. The compressor will
eventually over heat and might burn out.

Thank you, well said.
======================================================================
On 7/8/2016 8:49 PM, Danny D. wrote:
On Fri, 8 Jul 2016 19:47:38 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Sounds just exactly like a bad start relay
on the compressor. This is considered "sealed
system". If you have the owners manual, see
how long is the sealed system warranty. Probably
five years, so you're out of warranty.

If it's out of warranty, are you any good with
electrical repairs? Please write back, and we'll
continue the discussion.

Thanks for the advice.
The last thing I fixed with your help was the washing machine, who had an
F28/F11 which meant the motor control board was fried.

Before that, it was a non-operational furnace (bad thermistor), and before
that there were a host of things, most of which are working just fine now.

CY: Glad to be some help. Any time (well, figuratively speaking).

I have the frig unplugged to cool the black compressor "sealed system" down
(right now the black top of the "sealed system" is warm to the touch but
not hot).

A few questions of what I should expect, since I'm not sure that I
understand how the thing works yet.

Of course, I know that decompressing fluid freon (or whatever it uses) to a
gas makes the freon cold which makes the pipes that run through the
refrigerator cold, and then recompressing that recirculating gas back to a
liquid creates heat which is blown off by the fan - but I don't know the
mechanics of what I should expect (e.g., what pumps the fluid/gas through
the system? Gravity?).

CY: The big black thing in the back is a compressor.

So I have questions if I may ask...

0. Are there 3 things inside the "sealed unit"?
a. Motor
b. Compressor
c. Solenoid

CY: No, the motor and compressor are inside. The start relay (and some
have a relay and a capacitor) outside the sealed unit. The relay and cap
should never contact refrigerant. That said, the company probably
considers the relay and cap to be part of the sealed system.


1. Is the sealed unit a replaceable part?
http://i.cubeupload.com/wAX37P.jpg (same pic as before)

CY: Yes. Though, it's often not cost effective. Requires refrigerant
pump, brazing, electrical, and more than that. Takes about three hours.


2. Why would the top of the black sealed unit be hot to the touch?

CY: The black sealed unit contains electric windings for the motor. The
unit keeps trying to start the compressor. Amp draw, turns the electric
watts into heat.


3. Is there a motor overheat safety switch that may have tripped?

CY: Yes, that combination amp and temp safety switch is what gives you
the repeated hum click.


4. Are those black coils in the bottom supposed to be warm or cold?
http://i.cubeupload.com/jgkVXv.jpg (same pic as before)
CY: When the refrig is running, warm. They should NEVER get cold.


5. I don't see motion, but the vibrating can be felt on the solenoid on the
OUTSIDE of the sealed unit (it may be translating from inside though). What
is the purpose of that solenoid on the outside of the sealed unit?
http://i.cubeupload.com/p2OiCZ.jpg (same pic as before)

CY: The compressor has two windings. Start, and run. The relay supplies
power to the start winding, and then later power to the run winding.

In an hour or so, when the "sealed unit" has cooled down, I'll plug it back
in and report back.

CY: I'm guessing it will do exactly the same hum click routine.
It's late on the east coast, I'm going to bed.
======================================================================
On 7/8/2016 8:49 PM, Danny D. wrote:

In an hour or so, when the "sealed unit" has cooled down, I'll plug it back
in and report back.


As a Kenmore, you may be able to buy OEM parts, but
if it were my unit, I'd use a universal hard start
kit. Seeing as how I carry them in my vehicle and
use the universal kits at work.
======================================================================
On 7/8/2016 9:26 PM, Danny D. wrote:
On Fri, 8 Jul 2016 18:40:55 -0500, Terry Coombs wrote:

Might be the start cap on the compressor unit - what you're calling a
"bulb" is a hermetically sealed compressor with the motor inside . The click
you're hearing is probably the overload relay .

Is this black rectangle the start cap?
http://i.cubeupload.com/aOLfge.jpg

I disconnected the spring (what is it there for?).
I disconnected the wiring.
I tried to pull the black cap outward.
I tried to pull the gray base outward.

Neither would budge.
Have you removed them before?

Is there a trick to removing them?


To keep these parts from coming off.

Pull straight out from compressor. Might need to
pry with slotted screw driver. Wiggle them back
and forth while pulling.
======================================================================
On 7/8/2016 10:40 PM, Danny D. wrote:

Is it even possible for a homeowner to replace the compressor #28?


No. Sorry, but that takes a lot of skills
that the average HO does not have.
======================================================================
On 7/9/2016 1:27 AM, Danny D. wrote:

So are these my basic choices?
a) capacitor, or
b) relay, or
c) new frig?

Any idea how to test the relay?


d) the suggestion Stormy gave yesterday.

I've never tested a relay. Just replace,
and see if the unit comes back to life.

You may also answer my question, if you wish.
The one I asked yesterday.
======================================================================
On 7/9/2016 12:29 PM, Danny D. wrote:
On Sat, 9 Jul 2016 07:21:31 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

I've never tested a relay. Just replace,
and see if the unit comes back to life.

You may also answer my question, if you
wish. The one I asked yesterday.

Hi Chris,
I answer *all* questions, so I apologize if I missed one of yours.

Thanks to you, I had the courage to pry harder on the combined
"Refrigerator Overload and Start Relay" to pull it off.
http://i.cubeupload.com/ewhAUP.jpg

The "courage" here is better than a shot of whiskey because you give me the
confidence that I just need to try harder!

And, won't prevent you from being a Mormon.
======================================================================
On 7/9/2016 12:49 PM, Danny D. wrote:
On Sat, 9 Jul 2016 12:41:11 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

And, won't prevent you from being a Mormon.

If I become a Mormon, do I have to tell my Italian wife?

CY: Yes, many Italians are Mormons.

Maybe I'll make a deal with her:
Mormon for the refrigerator?

CY: She'll love it!

PS: Is polygamy still allowed?


CY: Not since 1890.
======================================================================
On 7/9/2016 12:47 PM, Danny D. wrote:

We let it cool overnight and reassembled the cap & start relay and plugged
it in a few times. Here is a video of what happened.
http://tinypic.com/r/20ubk3d/9

Can anyone tell, from that video, what is happening?


Yes. I can. Totally what I diagnosed yesterday.
======================================================================
On 7/9/2016 6:50 PM, Danny D. wrote:
On Sat, 09 Jul 2016 12:57:59 -0400, Bob Engelhardt wrote:

Yep - this video is telling the same story as the first one: the motor
tries to start & the overload clicks open when it overheats from the
excessive current. (It's probably a bimetal leaf.)


The guy at the parts store showed me a type of relay that has a
semiconductor disc inside which shatters, and when you shake the relay, if
it's broken, it rattles.

The one he had on the counter rattled, but he said mine isn't that kind
(probably a bimetallic strip as you said).

He really talked me out of buying both parts. They were each about 50
bucks, and he said I'd just be unhappy. So he sent me home to do some more
diagnostics with a test cable, which I'm gonna make now.


Danny, are my posts making it through your server?
======================================================================
On 7/9/2016 6:48 PM, Danny D. wrote:
On Sat, 09 Jul 2016 10:20:40 -0700, Oren wrote:

My memory fails. Awhile back there was a link or video about the
sequence of how you test the pins. No clue if it is accurate or
correct.

Blank stare:

1) Bottom two pins

2) Bottom right and top

3) Top and Bottom left
--

Went to a great appliance store in San Jose where the guy behind the
counter tested the cap and said it was good.

He said the compressor not working could be three things:
1. Bad compressor
2. Bad relay
3. Restriction in the freon lines

He strongly suggested I not buy his relay from him before testing it, and
he explained how the relay works (the white part is the thermal switch by
the way).

He said to plug in the power to the relay (two spades) and check that the
backside of the relay (3 pins) has power to common.

To do this, he told me to create a test jig where I can put 120 volts to
the Start and Main/Run pins of the compressor, with the neutral on the
common pin, and then pull off the start once the compressor starts.

He said if the compressor doesn't start - then that's it for the frig.

So I went home empty handed and then picked up some alligator clips,
spades, and butt connectors and am slapping together a test jig as we type.
The wife and sister were very unhappy that I came home, essentially, empty
handed. But the guy was right that I didn't do enough diagnostics.

The test jig will have two spades on the incoming end, which will plug into
the existing power cable (hot and neutral), and then it will have three
outputs which will be tube-connectors (two hots and one neutral).

The procedure will be:
1. Unplug power
2. Hook two male spades to female spades in power cord
3. Hook a butt plug to Start (hot) and to Run/Main (hot) and to neutral
4. Plug it in
5. Yank off the start wire as soon as the compressor starts

If the compressor starts, then it's good.
If not ...

Danny, are my posts making it to you,
through your server? You've not answered
my question. And you're going through a
lot of bother which isn't really needed.

But, did you ever do any thing simple?

I leave you to your complications.
======================================================================
On 7/9/2016 6:48 PM, Danny D. wrote:
On Sat, 09 Jul 2016 10:20:40 -0700, Oren wrote:

My memory fails. Awhile back there was a link or video about the
sequence of how you test the pins. No clue if it is accurate or
correct.

Blank stare:

1) Bottom two pins

2) Bottom right and top

3) Top and Bottom left
--

Went to a great appliance store in San Jose where the guy behind the
counter tested the cap and said it was good.

He said the compressor not working could be three things:
1. Bad compressor
2. Bad relay
3. Restriction in the freon lines

He strongly suggested I not buy his relay from him before testing it, and
he explained how the relay works (the white part is the thermal switch by
the way).

He said to plug in the power to the relay (two spades) and check that the
backside of the relay (3 pins) has power to common.

To do this, he told me to create a test jig where I can put 120 volts to
the Start and Main/Run pins of the compressor, with the neutral on the
common pin, and then pull off the start once the compressor starts.

He said if the compressor doesn't start - then that's it for the frig.

So I went home empty handed and then picked up some alligator clips,
spades, and butt connectors and am slapping together a test jig as we type.
The wife and sister were very unhappy that I came home, essentially, empty
handed. But the guy was right that I didn't do enough diagnostics.

The test jig will have two spades on the incoming end, which will plug into
the existing power cable (hot and neutral), and then it will have three
outputs which will be tube-connectors (two hots and one neutral).

The procedure will be:
1. Unplug power
2. Hook two male spades to female spades in power cord
3. Hook a butt plug to Start (hot) and to Run/Main (hot) and to neutral
4. Plug it in
5. Yank off the start wire as soon as the compressor starts

If the compressor starts, then it's good.
If not ...

Danny, are my posts making it to you, through your server?
You've not answered my question.
And you're going through a lot of bother which isn't really needed.
But, did you ever do any thing simple?
I leave you to your complications.
======================================================================
On 7/12/2016 3:22 PM, Danny D. wrote:
On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 11:36:19 -0400, tom wrote:

The drawing looks correct.

I don't think it is a restriction in the gas circuit. Leaving the unit sit
for a day would most likely let the pressures to equalize.

It might be a mechanical issue like a reed valve broken and jamming the
piston.

I don't know any other way to test for "mechanical" operation of the
compressor.


Pump out all the refrigerant.
Saw the top off the compressor.
After the inspection, weld the compressor using a gas tight "bead" of weld.
Replace the refrigerant.

No problem for you, right?
======================================================================
On 7/12/2016 5:26 PM, tom wrote:
There are "hard start" compressor starters available that might be worth
looking at.




Don't bother. I suggested that a week ago,
and Danny totally ignored me. And ignored
my hints and reminders.

======================================================================
On 7/12/2016 7:08 PM, Bob Engelhardt wrote:
On 7/12/2016 6:35 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Don't bother. I suggested that a week ago,
and Danny totally ignored me. And ignored
my hints and reminders.

Actually, I don't think that you did. You probably meant to, but were
too pissed from his ignoring you.



Think I remember at least one reminder. Well,
moot point. He's gone so far afield on so many
directions, there's no contacting him, now.
======================================================================
On 7/12/2016 10:57 PM, Danny D. wrote:
On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 21:53:52 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Think I remember at least one reminder. Well,
moot point. He's gone so far afield on so many
directions, there's no contacting him, now.

I think I tried *every* suggestion ever made in this thread.

Here's yours, but I don't remember it being suggested until today.
http://i.cubeupload.com/ja5XaK.jpg


You never answered my question, and I never
made any suggestions what to do. Other than
suggesting you answer my question so we can
move on.
======================================================================
On 7/12/2016 10:47 PM, Danny D. wrote:
On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 18:35:48 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Don't bother. I suggested that a week ago,
and Danny totally ignored me. And ignored
my hints and reminders.

You mean this?
http://i.cubeupload.com/VD0haS.jp


"not found" is what the web page says.
======================================================================
On 7/12/2016 10:47 PM, Danny D. wrote:
On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 18:35:48 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Don't bother. I suggested that a week ago,
and Danny totally ignored me. And ignored
my hints and reminders.

You mean this?
http://i.cubeupload.com/VD0haS.jpg


I added a g to the end of the URL, and got
a picture. I can't comment on that, until
you answer my question.
======================================================================
On 7/12/2016 11:21 PM, Danny D. wrote:
On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 22:53:09 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

I added a g to the end of the URL, and got
a picture. I can't comment on that, until
you answer my question.

Ooops. Mea culpa. Sorry about that missing "g".

It should have been:
http://i.cubeupload.com/VD0haS.jpg

Ummmmm... what question?

But I have a question for you.
How do you respond so quickly?

I have to sit down at the computer to even see a message, so, I don't see
them in real time. Do you have something that goes to your phone?

Coincidence. I'm on the east coast, and
spend a bit of time on the computer in
the evenings.

What question? I only asked twice.
======================================================================
On 7/13/2016 12:56 AM, Danny D. wrote:

Good news, and odd news.

1. I let it cool down for 1/2 hour and then when I plugged the Supco RC0410
1/4-to-1/3 HP 120VAC "3n1 Start" Solid State Relay Overload Start Capacitor
Combination unit in to the mains, the compressor started again!

2. I left the connections to the motor where they were, which seemed to
match our assumption that the top was the COMMON, and the forward-facing
bottom was the START and the rearward facing bottom was the RUN/MARK
connection.
http://i.cubeupload.com/YMMqW4.jpg

3. You'll notice I am not using the original power cord, so I have the rest
of the frig (including condenser the fan) on its own power supply and the
Supco RC0410 hard-start cap on its own power cord.
http://i.cubeupload.com/yiOL3g.jpg

3. With the Ammeter on the 15Amp scale, when the compressor was running,
the current on the black COMMON lead was about 3 amps.
http://i.cubeupload.com/GLn0bK.jpg

4. To doublecheck, I checked the current on the input cord neutrals, which
was also 3 Amps (not surprisingly):
http://i.cubeupload.com/k7D1Th.jpg

5. When the compressor was starting, the current on the START lead jumped a
bit (maybe double the 3 amps?) and then instantly settled down to zero amps
(or very slightly above zero amps).
http://i.cubeupload.com/5vR3jy.jpg

6. Then the compressor ran for about 10 or 20 minutes, getting very hot to
the touch, where the output (thin) line was hot enough to burn my
fingertips and even the input (thick) copper line was warm to the touch
(and the refrigerator began to get noticeably cooler inside the doors).

7. After 10 or 15 or so minutes of running, the compressor began to hum
instead of work causing 11 amps to flow through the COMMON lead, and then
the relay clicked off (is that supposed to happen?).
http://i.cubeupload.com/9TNB1Q.jpg

8. Then the compressor turned back on, after about 10 minutes, and worked
for a much shorter period of time, before turning off again (maybe fewer
than five minutes).

Is it normal for a compressor to shut off after getting very hot after
working for only about 10 minutes?

Is it OK to have the frig temporarily on two power cords?
a. One for the fan and the rest of the frig
b. One just for the compressor


If you'd done what I said, and played along,
this could have been fixed last week. Hope
you are enjoying your self.

======================================================================
On 7/13/2016 1:09 PM, Danny D. wrote:
On Wed, 13 Jul 2016 07:56:28 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

If you'd done what I said, and played along,
this could have been fixed last week. Hope
you are enjoying your self.

I don't see why you're so angry.

I'm trying to fix the frig while keeping my sister from saying "I told you
so" and while my wife is constantly asking me when she can have her kitchen
back.

I've never even *looked* at the back of a frig before (although I know
basic refrigeration theory from high-school chemistry).

The 1/2-to-1/3HP hard-start cap isn't working.

Half the time it starts the compressor, and half the time it does NOT start
the compressor.


Yes, it's obvious that you don't see.
======================================================================
On 7/13/2016 10:00 PM, Danny D. wrote:
On Wed, 13 Jul 2016 19:42:21 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Yes, it's obvious that you don't see.

Here's the thing.
I'm obviously not an engineer nor a tech.
I'm just a guy.

I had never looked at the back of a frig in my life before.
I ask you guys for help because the frig is a riddle to me.
I don't need more riddles though.


When you run into a problem, you can either
do things differently, or force harder, using
the technique which has failed up to that point.

I offered you (repeatedly) a chance to do
differently, and you ignored me repeatedly.
This post is an example of trying to force
your failing techniques even harder, and
trying to force me to participate with your
failings. I'll have you know, that I viewed
NONE of the links, and barely read your text.

By way of references, I've been working on
domstic refrigerators for over 10 years. I'm
fairly sure that if you'd done what I said,
it would have been fixed several days ago.
I'm also fairly sure I know why your compressor
keeps going off.
======================================================================
On 7/14/2016 2:01 PM, Danny D. wrote:

I answered *every* single question that people, including you, asked.



Nope. And, I asked twice.
======================================================================
On 7/14/2016 2:01 PM, Danny D. wrote:
I can't be any more blunt (and I don't do riddles).

No more riddles please. Just straight talk.
1. What is your question?
2. What is your suggestion?


It's under this header, and also under
subject line of "Debug advice, and a
question for Danny D".
======================================================================
On 7/13/2016 2:02 AM, Danny D. wrote:
I was throwing away the frig as of this morning, so, there was no need to
clean the condenser coil. I guess I'll clean it now - although do you
really thing *that* is what is making the compressor cycle?


When you go back and answer my question,
I'll consider answer yours.
======================================================================
======================================================================

I saw my (very simple) question three
times. I'd sure appreciate a (very
simple) answer.


--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

 

[Stormin Mormon]

On 7/14/2016 9:18 PM, Danny D. wrote:

On Sat, 9 Jul 2016 12:44:01 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

On 7/8/2016 7:47 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 7/8/2016 7:22 PM, Danny D. wrote:
Debugging advice requested.
I have never debugged a refrigerator in my life.
I never even looked at the back of one before.

2010 Sears Kenmore coldspot 106-59422801 refrigerator/freezer just
stopped
working at the same time that a periodic "humming and then clicking"
noise
started happening.

If it's out of warranty, [*are you any good with
electrical repairs*]? Please write back, and we'll
continue the discussion.


Since you missed the question the first time.

--
.
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
. www.lds.org
.

As you know, I only come to alt.home.repair when I have a problem, and when
I author a thread, I read *everything* in the thread, supplying photos and
model numbers and references, etc.,

I never read any other threads.
I just don't.

You know that too, because I've never responded to a thread outside my
threads. (Well, sometimes I get Oren asking me to answer a post about
garage door springs...).

Anyway, since you asked this *outside* of the thread I authored, I didn't
see it until just now because I don't read this newsgroup. I only respond
*inside* the threads I author.

The machine is, as noted in the OP of that other thread, not under warranty
because Sears has a 1 year and 5 year warranty but the machine was bought
in 2010 (as noted in that OP) so the warranty expired last year.

As you know also from that OP, I have never even looked at a refrigerator;
however, as you may know from this forum, I've repaired my washing machine
(replacing the motor control board) and many times I've repaired my pool
pumps, and I've replaced my own garage door springs, etc., so, I'm as good
as anyone with electrical repairs.

I have a VOM and a DMM and I built test jigs and I took college physics and
chemistry and tons of other classes and I built my own class A amplifiers
when I was fifteen (Silicon Germanium) so I know all about capacitors
resistors diodes transistors, etc.. I've wired my own computers, and I've
written assembly language programs, and I've debugged basic appliances.

Having said that, I've never worked on a refrigerator before.

Actually, the first time I asked was without changing the subject line.
After you ignored my question (with same subject line), I changed the
subject line to make it more obvious.

No, I don't follow your posting pattern. I'd not even notice if you
commented on other subjects.

A simple answer to my question would be nice.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

 

[Stormin Mormon]

On 7/14/2016 9:10 PM, Danny D. wrote:

On Wed, 13 Jul 2016 07:53:43 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

When you go back and answer my question,
I'll consider answer yours.

As you know, I don't read every thread here.
I just read the threads that I author.

And I respond to EVERY valid question and point.
You know this because I have done this for years.

I just went (again) through each of the two dozen posts you made in this
thread, and I don't see any suggestion that I didn't already do on my own,
nor any question that is unanswered.

Since I prove everything I say, below are the two dozen posts from you in
this thread.

Since you appear to think I know all about your
posting style, I must presume that you there fore
know all about mine. I like a good trim text job.
Leave enough text so we know the question that
goes with the reply. But, sending a dozen or so
quoted replies back through the list is really bad
manners.

With your simple answer to my simple question,
please do a reasonable text trim. Thank you.


--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

 

[Bob Engelhardt]

Oh, for Kee-rist sake(!!) ... here is the question, in S-T's 2nd post.
Hint: it precedes the "?" punctuation:

On 7/8/2016 7:47 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

...
If it's out of warranty, are you any good with
electrical repairs? Please write back, and we'll
continue the discussion.

Your quoting every single post of his is pointless ... nobody reads all
that!

 

[Danny D.]

On Fri, 8 Jul 2016 23:22:01 -0000 (UTC), Danny D. wrote:

> Debugging advice requested.

I ran out of options.
I can't think of anything else to do to debug.

One of the rare times in my life where I lost the battle to even *diagnose*
something, let alone fix it.

 

[Danny D.]

On Sun, 17 Jul 2016 18:28:30 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

You might (simply) answer Stormy's
simple question. I have a bit of a
guess what is going on.

I have no idea *what question* you are asking.
In response to *this* post, would you kindly just ask the question?
Is it the polygamy question?

 

[Danny D.]

On Sun, 17 Jul 2016 20:14:36 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

On 7/17/2016 7:33 PM, Danny D. wrote:
On Sun, 17 Jul 2016 18:28:30 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote:

You might (simply) answer Stormy's
simple question. I have a bit of a
guess what is going on.

I have no idea *what question* you are asking.
In response to *this* post, would you kindly just ask the question?
Is it the polygamy question?


I asked it two or three times. I repeated,
changed the subject line to indicate there
is a question. You quoted it, my very
simple question (at least) three times in
your twenty post rehash. I've kindly asked,
reminded, reposted, encouraged, others have
highlighted the question, and no I'm not
going to do your job for you.

BTW, the simple answer should be five words
or less. I can answer it in three.

1. The
2. Warranty
3. Expired
-----
4. Long
5. Ago