Wind turbines used to absorb a power surplus?...

[John Larkin]

On Wed, 12 Apr 2023 09:39:41 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
<tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On 12/04/2023 01:40, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 28 Mar 2023 09:53:45 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On 27/03/2023 21:31, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 27 Mar 2023 19:37:03 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On 27/03/2023 13:51, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 27 Mar 2023 11:01:09 +0100, \"Commander Kinsey\"
CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

If you think of a car engine idling, when you turn the lights on and off, you hear the engine changing speed due to the alternator putting less load on it.

Not my car. It has an engine control computer and servos to a constant
idle RPM.


So unless you change the throttle, the frequency would change. Since power stations are steam driven, I guess perhaps you could have a throttle in the pipe of steam feeding it? You could also turn down the gas jets to heat the boiler appropriately.

Of course steam plants have throttle valves and feedwater controls and
burner controls. Lots of other valves.





On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 12:10:40 -0000, Brian Gaff <brian1gaff@gmail.com> wrote:

I think this highly unlikely. I think turning down is not so easy, since it
is AC, and has to respond to sudden loads. What should happen is that the
loading on most systems will reduce as the generator is easier to turn, but
the frequency remains the same. I do not know what method is used these days
as governors. I\'m sure its probably highly technical and not two weights and
a brake as it used to be on wind up gramophones!
Brian

Once a generator is connected to the grid, the rotor spins in sync
with the rest of the country. After that, one adjusts the steam flow
and the field excitation to tune power in/out and power factor.

The synchronization process is interesting... I used to do it by hand
and later designed a synchroscope/synchronizer. It can get dramatic if
you do it wrong.

It\'s like flying a plane, where you have the elevator and the throttle
interacting. It\'s counter-intuitive to beginners.

Steam plant is locked to the mains. It does not change speed. At most as
the steam is fed in, it advances the phase angle to feed more current
into the grid.

An noted, it\'s counter-intuitive to beginners. Steam adjusts power
(think conservation of energy) and field current adjusts phase angle,
which is why there are rotating machines with no mechanical input or
output, used only for system power factor tweaking, like a giant
capacitor.

Most generators are run near unity power factor, zero phase angle.

In fact the actual phase angle differences are minute. On a perfect
generator that would be nil, but internal resistance allows a little
phase angle to develop

Adjusting field tweaks the phase angle in either direction.
???

What are you on about?


System PF correction is needed because most big loads are inductive.
Adding real or simulated capacitors is best done out in the network,
not at the generator.

The \"reactive power\", the quadrature current, increses transmission
losses.

What are you on about?

Adding power to a generator that is phase locked simply results in it
pushing harder against the grid loads, and so the rotor will advance
phase by enough to absorb the extra power.

Do generators absorb power? That sounds kinda oxymoronish.

Nothing to do with field coils or power factor.

What is the field coil for? What does it do?

Have you ever governed a megawatt-class generator by adjusting the
steam valve and the field current by hand, youself?

 

[John Larkin]

On Wed, 05 Apr 2023 23:08:56 +0100, \"Commander Kinsey\"
<CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

On Mon, 27 Mar 2023 13:51:29 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandsnipmetechnology.com> wrote:

On Mon, 27 Mar 2023 11:01:09 +0100, \"Commander Kinsey\"
CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

If you think of a car engine idling, when you turn the lights on and off, you hear the engine changing speed due to the alternator putting less load on it.

Not my car. It has an engine control computer and servos to a constant
idle RPM.

That\'s why I said below \"unless you change the throttle\".

So unless you change the throttle, the frequency would change. Since power stations are steam driven, I guess perhaps you could have a throttle in the pipe of steam feeding it? You could also turn down the gas jets to heat the boiler appropriately.

Of course steam plants have throttle valves and feedwater controls and
burner controls. Lots of other valves.

Can this not be done instantaneously? The steam valve would stop the power output immediately. The gas jets can be turned off immediately to prevent boiling over.

The thermal time constant of a big boiler, with its many parts, is
long, minutes at least. The feedwater is already hot. You can cut the
flames instantly but if you soon after shut off the steam outlet
valves, you will blow a safety.

Blowing a safety valve is a very big deal. Expect a lot of paperwork.

I once saw a safety valve being tested. Fun, since I had nothing to do
but watch. And listen. There were so many official witnesses they were
hard to pack into the engine room.

The star of the show was the guy standing next to the valve with a
wrench. He had a lot of interesting scars.

 

[Andrew]

On 12/04/2023 13:15, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 12/04/2023 13:11, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 12/04/2023 12:27, Andrew wrote:
On 10/04/2023 18:25, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 10/04/2023 15:18, Ed P wrote:
On 4/10/2023 7:12 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
margin).

Well no it isnt. Gas is back to pre war prices. Bu electricity is
now about 10 times what it used to be.
Clearly it is linked to the cost of renewables,


Did your ass hurt when you pulled that number out of it?  Only
changes here were due to the natural gas spikes so some areas saw 10%.

I am paying 50p a unit.
I used to pay 5p 20 years ago and pre renewables it was around 12p


No you aren\'t. As a UK domestic user your electricity is capped
at about 35p/KwH, as is everyone elses, at massive cost to
future taxpayers who will be paying off the escalating debt
that Lettuce and Kwackers dumped on everyone .

That\'s not what my electricity company is saying to me

Payment Plan     Budget Direct Debit (Monthly)
About my Direct Debit
Monthly payment amount     £265 (collected on 23rd of each month)
My unit rates     Electricity day unit rate: 50.60p per kWh
Electricity night unit rate: 8.59p per kWh
Daily standing charge: 43.76p per day

So you are paying 8.59p for 7 hours (Economy 7)
Standard variable tariff is capped by the government.

 

[John Larkin]

On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 11:02:02 -0400, micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com>
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 18 Mar 2023 09:39:03 -0000, \"Commander
Kinsey\" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

An electrician (who I don\'t believe) told me if there\'s too much power on the grid, they use wind turbines as fans to absorb extra power. Is this really true?

Sure. YOu know how people with solar cells sell their electricity back
to the power company, when they don\'t need to use it all. In the same
way, when there is too much electricity, it\'s sent to wind turbines, and
they spin backwards and they blow the wind back where it came from. So
that later, it will blow in the first direction again when more
electricity is needed.

Aren\'t there plenty of power stations they can just turn down a bit? Take your foot off the gas so to speak?

I was also disturbed to hear from him it costs £700 to install smart meters into each home. And in the UK that comes from green tax. Shouldn\'t that tax be being spent on making more green energy, building new wind farms?

They don\'t need more wind farms because if too much wind is blown
backwards, the seasons will change.

It takes under an hour to change the meter, maybe under 15 minutes, and
I would guess the cost of a smart meter is under 200 pounds. At least
the marginal cost. In this situation, every cost estimator seems to
come up with a price higher than to be expected. Not sure how they do
it.

Having a smart meter means they no longer have to send meter readers, so
that saves a lot of money in the long run. They can arrange for rolling
black outs if that is ever needed in the UK, and they can do time-of-day
billing, to encourage people to dry their clothes outside of the
electrical rush hour.

TI, and others, have cheap 2 and 3 channel delta-sigma ADCs intended
for use in smart meters. Many have on-chip dc/dc converters to power
the isolated-side bits. They measure temperature too. Small quantity
prices are under $10 and they are do doubt much cheaper at 50 million
pieces.

One of these would monitor a DC supply for current and voltage.

 

[John Larkin]

On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 16:41:55 +0000, alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk>
wrote:

On 18/03/2023 15:02, micky wrote:

Having a smart meter means they no longer have to send meter readers, so
that saves a lot of money in the long run.

Using your argument about 15 minutes for a smart meter installation per
house not costing a lot the 30 seconds to read a meter once every 12
months means that the payback time for just the labour is more more than
30 years. If the meter takes 1 hour to install the saving payback time
for not having a meter reader is 120 years

A gas meter will need a new battery in 10 years, or less

Before smart meters, ours was read once a month and it certainly took
more than 30 seconds per meter.

In many neighborhoods the meter reader would drive between houses.
Ours could walk the block.

Some houses here have a tiny window on the front, with the meter
behind that. Some apartments have all the meters in the basement and
the meter guy had a key.

 

[rbowman]

On Wed, 12 Apr 2023 10:08:23 +0100, Martin Brown wrote:

We have the LNG tanker facilities to accept bulk Qatari oil. Europe
relied heavily on the Russian gas pipeline - until it was cut off. They
are still building LNG handling facilities right now (same as the UK is
desperately trying to add more gas storage to our systems).

Ironically in the US the northeastern states with LNG facilities have at
times bought it from Gazprom. A law from the last century meant to protect
the maritime industry states cargo between domestic ports must be carried
on US owned and operated ships. afaik there isn\'t a LNG tanker meeting the
requirements. That\'s part of the incentive to sell LNG to Europe.

The northeast could be supplied via pipelines but good luck building a
pipeline in that area.

 

[rbowman]

On Wed, 12 Apr 2023 09:35:28 +0100, Martin Brown wrote:

No. It was run down because no one was prepared to pay for its upkeep.
Russia was such a reliable supplier of gas to the EU and we could buy it
cheaper from Qatar than by extracting from the North Sea. They never
imagined that supply security could ever be important again.

It helps to have a spare nose when you cut yours off to spite your face.

 

[SteveW]

On 12/04/2023 13:11, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 12/04/2023 12:27, Andrew wrote:
On 10/04/2023 18:25, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 10/04/2023 15:18, Ed P wrote:
On 4/10/2023 7:12 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
margin).

Well no it isnt. Gas is back to pre war prices. Bu electricity is
now about 10 times what it used to be.
Clearly it is linked to the cost of renewables,


Did your ass hurt when you pulled that number out of it?  Only
changes here were due to the natural gas spikes so some areas saw 10%.

I am paying 50p a unit.
I used to pay 5p 20 years ago and pre renewables it was around 12p


No you aren\'t. As a UK domestic user your electricity is capped
at about 35p/KwH, as is everyone elses, at massive cost to
future taxpayers who will be paying off the escalating debt
that Lettuce and Kwackers dumped on everyone .

That\'s not what my electricity company is saying to me

IIRC, there are two caps. One (about 34p) is what your supplier can
charge a domestic customer and is a special, temporary cap, while the
other is the permanent cap related to predicted gas prices and the
normal limit for what companies can charge (possibly about 50p). While
the special cap is in place and lower than the normal cap, you will pay
the special cap rate.

 

[SteveW]

On 12/04/2023 13:15, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 12/04/2023 13:11, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 12/04/2023 12:27, Andrew wrote:
On 10/04/2023 18:25, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 10/04/2023 15:18, Ed P wrote:
On 4/10/2023 7:12 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
margin).

Well no it isnt. Gas is back to pre war prices. Bu electricity is
now about 10 times what it used to be.
Clearly it is linked to the cost of renewables,


Did your ass hurt when you pulled that number out of it?  Only
changes here were due to the natural gas spikes so some areas saw 10%.

I am paying 50p a unit.
I used to pay 5p 20 years ago and pre renewables it was around 12p


No you aren\'t. As a UK domestic user your electricity is capped
at about 35p/KwH, as is everyone elses, at massive cost to
future taxpayers who will be paying off the escalating debt
that Lettuce and Kwackers dumped on everyone .

That\'s not what my electricity company is saying to me

Payment Plan     Budget Direct Debit (Monthly)
About my Direct Debit
Monthly payment amount     £265 (collected on 23rd of each month)
My unit rates     Electricity day unit rate: 50.60p per kWh
Electricity night unit rate: 8.59p per kWh
Daily standing charge: 43.76p per day

Ah, you are paying a higher than cap day rate, because you are getting a
lower night rate. For average consumption level and pattern, that should
still average out at 34p per unit over the full 24 hours.

 

[SteveW]

On 12/04/2023 09:51, alan_m wrote:

On 12/04/2023 09:35, Martin Brown wrote:


Again privatising de facto monopolies like water utilities is to blame.

And all these  monopolies and nationalised utilities ran so well with
near zero investment for decades and with a couldn\'t care less attitude
to customers.

Yes. They may be bad now, but it used to take 9 to 12 months to get a
phone line connected to your house; train services were unusable (I well
remember during the weeks of my finals, every train being cancelled and
having to get there by other means and months of three trains in a row
cancelled, so no room on the next one to run).

 

[SteveW]

On 12/04/2023 09:44, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 11/04/2023 23:29, alan_m wrote:
On 11/04/2023 21:45, Martin Brown wrote:

Last summer we were exporting gas to Europe for storage as fast as it
could be offloaded from LNG tankers. Our miniscule storage capacity
was already brim full (all 10 days of it). Most EU countries have
storage capacity of between 60 and 90 days winter usage. We were damn
lucky that it wasn\'t a particularly hard winter or the UK would have
frozen!



But wasn\'t most of our gas storage facilities run down because of a
lack of future investment because gas was no longer needed in the
green revolution?

Precisely. There was only money in investing in subsidised guaranteed
market renewables., The fact that they simply couldn\'t do the job they
were supposed to was *someone else\'s* problem.

In fact I suspect the power companies were only too eager to see a
massive electricity blackout to rub the politicians noises in their won
shit.

North sea facilities (including massive gas storage) have been rapidly
de-commissioned in the past 5 to 10 years as it is perceived that
there will be no return for future investment when all our energy come
from renewable sources and, if the various lobby groups get there way,
oil and gas are banned!


That doesn\'t explain why it was more profitable to export LNG to Europe
than use it ourselves.

We didn\'t need the quantity of gas that was available to us in the
summer and had little spare storage. The EU had few port facilities for
importing it, but lots of storage. It made sense for them to import via
pipelines, from the UK, using the UK\'s port facilities.

 

[Peeler]

On 12 Apr 2023 15:16:59 GMT, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:


> It helps to have a spare nose when you cut yours off to spite your face.

What an IDIOT! LMAO

--
More of the resident bigmouth\'s usual idiotic babble and gossip:
I\'m not saying my father and uncle wouldn\'t have drank Genesee beer
without Miss Genny but it certainly didn\'t hurt. Stanton\'s was the
hometown brewery but it closed in \'50. There was a Schaefer brewery in
Albany but their product was considered a step up from cat piss.

My preference was Rheingold on tap\"

MID: <k9mnmmF9emhU1@mid.individual.net>

 

[Peeler]

On 12 Apr 2023 15:14:30 GMT, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:

Ironically in the US the northeastern states with LNG facilities have at
times bought it from Gazprom. A law from the last century meant to protect
the maritime industry states cargo between domestic ports must be carried
on US owned and operated ships. afaik there isn\'t a LNG tanker meeting the
requirements. That\'s part of the incentive to sell LNG to Europe.

The northeast could be supplied via pipelines but good luck building a
pipeline in that area.

And? Where\'s your part in all of this? Oh, yeah, you can blather about it in
your known verbose manner, you totally fucked up senile Yankee bigmouth! LOL

--
More of the pathological senile gossip\'s sick shit squeezed out of his sick
head:
\"Skunk probably tastes like chicken. I\'ve never gotten that comparison,
most famously with Chicken of the Sea. Tuna is a fish and tastes like a
fish. I will admit I\'ve had chicken that tasted like fish. I don\'t think I
want to know what they were feeding it.\"
MID: <k44t5lFl1k3U4@mid.individual.net>

 

[Peeler]

On Wed, 12 Apr 2023 07:27:33 -0700, John Larkin, an obviously brain dead,
troll-feeding senile asshole, blathered:


> The thermal time constant of a big boiler, with its many parts, is

Is this still about wind turbines, you brain dead, troll-feeding senile
cretin?

 

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 12/04/2023 17:40, SteveW wrote:

On 12/04/2023 13:15, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 12/04/2023 13:11, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 12/04/2023 12:27, Andrew wrote:
On 10/04/2023 18:25, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 10/04/2023 15:18, Ed P wrote:
On 4/10/2023 7:12 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
margin).

Well no it isnt. Gas is back to pre war prices. Bu electricity is
now about 10 times what it used to be.
Clearly it is linked to the cost of renewables,


Did your ass hurt when you pulled that number out of it?  Only
changes here were due to the natural gas spikes so some areas saw
10%.

I am paying 50p a unit.
I used to pay 5p 20 years ago and pre renewables it was around 12p


No you aren\'t. As a UK domestic user your electricity is capped
at about 35p/KwH, as is everyone elses, at massive cost to
future taxpayers who will be paying off the escalating debt
that Lettuce and Kwackers dumped on everyone .

That\'s not what my electricity company is saying to me

Payment Plan     Budget Direct Debit (Monthly)
About my Direct Debit
Monthly payment amount     £265 (collected on 23rd of each month)
My unit rates     Electricity day unit rate: 50.60p per kWh
Electricity night unit rate: 8.59p per kWh
Daily standing charge: 43.76p per day

Ah, you are paying a higher than cap day rate, because you are getting a
lower night rate. For average consumption level and pattern, that should
still average out at 34p per unit over the full 24 hours.

Does it fuck

--
“when things get difficult you just have to lie”

― Jean Claud Jüncker

 

[Rod Speed]

On Thu, 13 Apr 2023 00:04:23 +1000, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home>
wrote:

\"Rod Speed\" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> writes:
On Wed, 12 Apr 2023 03:44:12 +1000, alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk
wrote:

On 10/04/2023 15:35, Fredxx wrote:

There is more to F1 racing than turning a steering wheel. There are
some pretty immense G-forces that act on the body.
The important aspect of racing is that only the best of the best get
to drive in a professional capacity. It just so happens that on the
whole they are men?

Probably no difference to flying a fast jet fighter plane

Very different actually. Modern fast jet fighter planes are
about firing missiles that take down another plane quite
literally hundreds of miles away without ever seeing it.

That\'s what they thought in the 1950s, thus the F-4
didn\'t originally have a gun. Vietnam proved that
assumption was incorrect.

Vietnam was never about modern fast jet fighter planes
and plane launched fire and forget anti aircraft missiles with
a range of hundreds of miles hadn\'t even been invented yet.

And ground attack doesnt use fast jet fighter planes.

The F-16 is a fast jet fighter and is used for ground
attack (and the F-35 will be used when the last A-10s are retired).

But both are fly by wire with full computer control.
nothing even remotely like F1 racing

 

[Peeler]

On Thu, 13 Apr 2023 03:34:51 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin\'s latest trollshit unread>

--
Tim+ about trolling Rodent Speed:
He is by far the most persistent troll who seems to be able to get under the
skin of folk who really should know better. Since when did arguing with a
troll ever achieve anything (beyond giving the troll pleasure)?
MID: <1421057667.659518815.743467.tim.downie-gmail.com@news.individual.net>

 

[SteveW]

On 12/04/2023 18:26, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 12/04/2023 17:40, SteveW wrote:
On 12/04/2023 13:15, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 12/04/2023 13:11, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 12/04/2023 12:27, Andrew wrote:
On 10/04/2023 18:25, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 10/04/2023 15:18, Ed P wrote:
On 4/10/2023 7:12 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
margin).

Well no it isnt. Gas is back to pre war prices. Bu electricity
is now about 10 times what it used to be.
Clearly it is linked to the cost of renewables,


Did your ass hurt when you pulled that number out of it?  Only
changes here were due to the natural gas spikes so some areas saw
10%.

I am paying 50p a unit.
I used to pay 5p 20 years ago and pre renewables it was around 12p


No you aren\'t. As a UK domestic user your electricity is capped
at about 35p/KwH, as is everyone elses, at massive cost to
future taxpayers who will be paying off the escalating debt
that Lettuce and Kwackers dumped on everyone .

That\'s not what my electricity company is saying to me

Payment Plan     Budget Direct Debit (Monthly)
About my Direct Debit
Monthly payment amount     £265 (collected on 23rd of each month)
My unit rates     Electricity day unit rate: 50.60p per kWh
Electricity night unit rate: 8.59p per kWh
Daily standing charge: 43.76p per day

Ah, you are paying a higher than cap day rate, because you are getting
a lower night rate. For average consumption level and pattern, that
should still average out at 34p per unit over the full 24 hours.

Does it fuck

It would if you were an average user, with an average spread of use
during the day. Much of your use at 50p and the rest at 8.5p.

For us it doesn\'t work, despite having an EV. With a family of 5, doing
lots of washing, drying and cooking that can\'t be shifted into the
night, the bulk at at the higher rate and charging the car overnight,
would leave us worse off than just doing everything, when we want, at
the 34p rate.

 

[rbowman]

On Wed, 12 Apr 2023 09:35:58 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

ABS and traction control no, but power steering and brakes I think they
do. Brake by wire is essential with the energy recovery systems on the
rear axle

https://us.motorsport.com/f1/video/f1s-mechanical-power-steering-system-
explained/372440/

Nice video on the hydraulic assisted rack and pinion steering. It
preserves the feel that is lost in many passenger cars.

The braking system is quite complex but I wouldn\'t call it power brakes in
the usual sense:

https://www.mercedesamgf1.com/news/formula-one-brake-systems-explained


None of my bikes have ABS so something like that would be interesting. On
hard braking into a corner there is so much weight transfer to the front
tire that the rear brake is used gently, if at all.

 

[Peeler]

On 13 Apr 2023 02:46:45 GMT, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:

https://us.motorsport.com/f1/video/f1s-mechanical-power-steering-system-
explained/372440/

Nice video on the hydraulic assisted rack and pinion steering. It
preserves the feel that is lost in many passenger cars.

WTF has your latest senile SHIT got to do with wind turbines, you abnormal
pathological senile shithead?

--
Yet another thrilling account from the resident senile superhero\'s senile
life:
\"I went to a Driveby Truckers concert at a local venue and they made me
leave my knife in the car. Never went back. Come to think of it the Truckers
had a Black Lives Matter banner. Never bought any of their music again
either.\"
MID: <k84ip9Fesb1U1@mid.individual.net>