Why do circuit breakers go up for on and down for off?...

On 2023-02-18 21:09, SteveW wrote:
On 18/02/2023 15:05, Max Demian wrote:
On 18/02/2023 13:14, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 18/02/2023 12:43, Max Demian wrote:
On 18/02/2023 00:29, Commander Kinsey wrote:

Mains was always AC wasn\'t it?

If course it wasn\'t (in the UK). Mains was AC or DC, and 120V (or
so) to 250V (or so).


Mains was always AC post WWII and probably post the advent of
consumer tube radios and IIRC was always 240VAC post WWII.

\"The Electricity (Supply) Act 1919 merged the 600-odd local
generating companies into area boards, who in turn were centralised
into the Central Electricity Board by the Electricity Supply Act
1925. That is when the voltage was standardised at 240V, and the
National Grid created.

And then the EU stole ten of our good, English volts!

Have we got them back yet?

No they didn\'t. The reference simply changed to 230V, so that 220V and
240V countries could use the same, single design of 230V equipment,
designed with a wide enough tolerance to cope with the lowest permitted
voltage on 220V systems and the highest permitted voltage on 240V
systems. The voltage supplied did not change.

Here it did change. We had 220 and they changed silently to 230 without
telling us anything. I just noticed that when I measured it I read 230
on a digital multimeter (so there was no error, and I measured in more
than one house/city), and when I bought bulbs they also said 230.

They had changed silently the contracts, too. They said we had to renew
with some unrelated excuse, and the fine print said 230.

--
Cheers, Carlos.
 
\"Commander Kinsey\" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:eek:p.10pblzyxmvhs6z@ryzen.home...
How annoying. The British fuses you could stick any in any socket, and
you could put any fusewire in each too. My house, I put in what I want.
Complete:
https://maintenance-service.co.uk/_webedit/cached-images/165-0-0-0-10000-10000-708.jpg
Without
fuses:https://flameport.com/electric_museum/old_equipment/white_wylex_reverse_switch_open.jpg
Without covers:https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/qp4AAOSw3N9fNcsE/s-l300.jpg
(I have one like this, got it 2nd hand). It takes fuses or breakers, no
covers, just have to be careful inserting them. And no I never turn off
the whole bloody thing just to change one fuse.
Can\'t find a picture of the actual fuses seperate.

I was always surprised that all the fuse-wire holders in a UK fuse box were
interchangeable - there was nothing to stop you inserting a 15 A
lighting-circuit fuse in the slot for a 30 A ring-main. Everything would be
fine until someone turned on both a kettle and and electric fire on the same
ring main (thereby drawing more than 13A) and the 15 A fuse would blow.

It would have been better if the fuse holders had been designed to have
different size pins to avoid this. Of course there would still be nothing to
stop someone wiring 30 A wire into a 15 A holder, but that is (probably)
less likely than someone pulling out several fuses and then putting them
back in the wrong locations. At least the fuse holders and sockets in the
fuse box were colour-coded with domino spots which had to match.
 
micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> writes:
In alt.home.repair, on Thu, 16 Feb 2023 13:30:34 +0100, \"Carlos E.R.\"
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2023-02-16 05:45, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 15 Feb 2023 23:32:44 +0100, \"Carlos E.R.\"
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:


I think all houses have circuit breakers, but that doesn\'t mean they
have a fully compliant installation.

I don\'t think they\'ve ever ordered that here. Althought some people
remodel and upgrade on their own. A friend bought a 100-year old
farmhouse about 10 years ago and it still had knob and tube wiring. I
think it was connected and in use.

A lot of insurance companies will exclude electric-caused issues
from the policy if the home has knob and tube here in the states.
 
On 18/02/2023 15:05, Max Demian wrote:
On 18/02/2023 13:14, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
\"The Electricity (Supply) Act 1919 merged the 600-odd local generating
companies into area boards, who in turn were centralised into the
Central Electricity Board by the Electricity Supply Act 1925. That is
when the voltage was standardised at 240V, and the National Grid created.

And then the EU stole ten of our good, English volts!

Have we got them back yet?

I thought that the redefining of 240 V to 230 V was purely a changing of
the tolerance limits so as to include a wider range so both 220 V in
mainland Europe and 240 V in the UK were within the tolerance limits,
and that nothing physical changed in the generation and distribution chain.
 
\"Commander Kinsey\" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:eek:p.10pebruymvhs6z@ryzen.home...

Electricity usually doesn\'t kill. It has to pass through your heart, and
you have to have a heart defect. I\'ve had seven 240V shocks right through
my torso, just made me jump. Not painful, not harmful.

I wouldn\'t describe a mains shock as \"not painful\". It definitely hurt: a
sharp throbbing while the current was flowing (until I managed to pull my
hand away or the ELCB tripped) and a tingling and dull ache for about an
hour after.

I imagine different people are affected differently by the same voltage of
shock. I used to know a woman at university who could feel voltages of a few
volts through her fingers - she could touch the terminals of an AA battery
(eg between finger and thumb) and tell whether it was dead. She described 9
V from a PP9 battery as \"uncomfortable\".

I\'ve only ever had AC shocks - a couple of mains shocks between fingers or
between different parts of the same finger knuckle - and those pulsate
because of the AC. I\'m not sure what an equivalent DC shock feels like - and
I\'m in no hurry to find out ;-) The worst shock was from terminals of a
transformer in a valve-powered tape recorder and that was about 400 V AC -
probably from the input that fed the HT for the valves - which \"killed\" my
arm for a while and caused me to gash my hand on a sharp bit of solder on
the circuit board as I pulled my hand away. Strangely, getting that shock
fixed a problem with the tape recorder: I can only assume that there was a
bad connection which was fixed when I jolted the circuit board.
 
On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 21:07:22 -0000, NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:

\"Commander Kinsey\" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:eek:p.10blnal7mvhs6z@ryzen.home...
Earth and neutral are the same thing. Only two wires enter my house
from the substation.

Depends on the country.


It is not so even if \'only two wires enter the house\'.
Conventionally any metal pipes entering it provide the earth.

It can cause corrosion on the pipes. And today the pipes are made of
some plastic here.

No idea what century he\'s living in, we don\'t use pipes to provide earth,
we use a 100A cable to the fucking great big ground spike at the
substation.

No, houses here have two wires. It\'s most obvious where the feed is from
overhead wires: you typically see three wires (the three phases) going fro
pole to pole along the street, with two branching off from two of those
three phase wires, going to a house. The next house may have two wires
connected to different phases. Sometimes there are four wires along the
street, with one wire to every house connected to the same neutral wire and
the other house wire connected to one of the three phase wires.

Earth is provided locally: in older houses with metal water pipes, the
green/yellow earth wire is connected to a strap around the rising main water
pipe; in newer houses it connects to a big spike in the ground outside.

What you said doesn\'t make sense. So you receive no neutral, but live 1 and live 2?! That would mean you could get a shock off either. How monumentally insane.
 
On Sun, 19 Feb 2023 07:25:43 +1100, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid>
wrote:

On 2023-02-18 02:47, Rod Speed wrote:
On Sat, 18 Feb 2023 06:19:29 +1100, Carlos E. R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2023-02-17 20:12, Rod Speed wrote:
On Sat, 18 Feb 2023 03:05:55 +1100, Carlos E. R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2023-02-17 04:52, Rod Speed wrote:
On Fri, 17 Feb 2023 12:45:30 +1100, Carlos E.R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2023-02-16 16:26, Scott Lurndal wrote:
micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> writes:
In alt.home.repair, on Thu, 16 Feb 2023 13:30:34 +0100, \"Carlos
E.R.\" <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2023-02-16 05:45, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 15 Feb 2023 23:32:44 +0100,
\"Carlos E.R.\" <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:


I think all houses have circuit breakers, but that doesn\'t mean
they
have a fully compliant installation.

I don\'t think they\'ve ever ordered that here. Althought some
people
remodel and upgrade on their own. A friend bought a 100-year old
farmhouse about 10 years ago and it still had knob and tube
wiring. I
think it was connected and in use.
A lot of insurance companies will exclude electric-caused issues
from the policy if the home has knob and tube here in the states.

I had to look it up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knob-and-tube_wiring

I\'ve never seen it here. Maybe, just maybe, something related from
before I was born. But we don\'t build houses with wood, like in
the photos. All brick, mortar, stone, concrete.
Bullshit.
https://www.google.com/search?q=wooden+houses+spain&tbm=isch

Did you check the percent? :)
You said DON\'T and ALL.

Less than a 0.01% error, probably.
Don\'t buy that with the prefabs and we can see that your number is a
lie
using google street view.

In cities?

Yep.

> In my city I don\'t remember seeing a single wood house.

Which city so I can street view it ?

On some beaches, yes. For political reasons:

It is very difficult to get a building permit in some places, so people
plant a prefab instead.

So you were wrong.
 
On 18/02/2023 16:00, John Larkin wrote:
On Wed, 15 Feb 2023 16:24:54 +0000, Martin Brown
\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

On 15/02/2023 10:48, Mike Monett VE3BTI wrote:
Martin Brown <\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

The remaining big power hog is the garage lights.

Your fridge is a big power hog. Set the refrigerator temperature to the
highest setting, usually around 45 degrees F or 7 degrees C. This is an
excellent temperature for keeping vegetables, especially potatoes.

UK fridges are much less of a power hog than US ones. The power it takes
to keep cool depends mostly on how often it gets opened and how full it
is.

How does fullness affect required cooling power?

More thermal inertia in a full fridge or freezer so the compressor comes
on less often. Also less cold air to fall onto the floor when you open
the fridge door.

--
Martin Brown
 
On Thu, 16 Feb 2023 15:11:20 +0000, NY, the really endlessly blathering,
notorious, troll-feeding, senile asshole, blathered, yet again:


> A quadcopter is a perfect example of this:

YOU are a perfect example of an endlessly blathering demented senile
asshole, you miserable troll-feeding senile twit!
 
On 18/02/2023 16:28, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 18/02/2023 14:06, SteveW wrote:

 When CBs were legalised, it was on 27MHz FM, with
the AM sets remaining illegal and the FM sets being limited to 4
Watts. Only 40 channels were legal, although some imported sets could
access 80.

Not sure that is correct. 27 was always AM. I dont think there were more
than about 10 channels either

I thought the same as SteveW: that CB radio in UK and US both used 27
MHz, but US AM CBs were illegal and only UK FM CBs were legal.
 
On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:17:21 +0000, Max Dumbian, the REAL dumb, notorious,
troll-feeding senile idiot, blathered again:


Cars aren\'t sentient, so they have no notion of orientation. Say port
and starboard.

There\'s no bait idiotic enough that you senile SHITHEAD will NOT thankfully
take, eh, you troll-feeding senile cretin?

--
Max Dumb having another senile moment:
\"It\'s the consistency of the shit that counts. Sometimes I don\'t need to
wipe, but I have to do so to tell. Also humans have buttocks to get
smeared due to our bipedalism.\"
Message-ID: <6vydnWiYDoV1VUrDnZ2dnUU78QednZ2d@brightview.co.uk>
 
On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 21:13:04 -0000, NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:

\"Commander Kinsey\" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:eek:p.10bnk5k5mvhs6z@ryzen.home...
Rotary took fucking ages to dial long distance. And a very long time to
dial the UK emergency 999. Should have been 111.

In an emergency, there was a very great temptation to force the dial to
return more quickly than the spring-and-governor mechanism returns it, so
you dial the 999 more quickly. I\'m not sure what the upper limit of the
acceptable pulse rate was for a typical exchange.

Or the upper limit of the acceptable torque on the dial before you broke it and got no emergency service at all.

It was fun to try to dial a number by using a switch to make pulses.
 
On 2023-02-18 01:29, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 13:33:36 -0000, Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote:
On 13/02/2023 03:59, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 13 Feb 2023 00:08:57 +0100, \"Carlos E.R.\" <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2023-02-12 23:00, micky wrote:

Her record player doesn\'t have speakers, not even one, or any
controls except on/off. For sound you have to turn on a
nearby AM radio and tune to the right frequency. I meant to
check if that means I can listen all over the house, which
would be really nice, but until just now, I\'d forgotten about

No, that\'s not how they worked.

Not like you to think you know more about my phonograph than I do.

Radios of that era had a setting named \"phone\". And a socket. You
connected the output of the \"electric gramophone\" pickup to the phone

Every mains valve radio had a \"Gram\" or \"PU\" socket with switching,
usually combined with the waveband switch.

Did valve radios use Cockcroft-Walton multipliers?

Mine has no output jacks or cords.  Just a small nice wooden cabinet
with no holes, no jacks, maybe one 12\" wire as a transmitting antenna (I
have to go look again.  Not sure if there\'s a wire.)

Maybe 14 or 16\" square and 5\" high.

It might be from the 30\'s after my mother got married in 1929.

input of the radio, which was actually the audio amplifier section.

The radio could have a switch to disable the radio section or not, in
which case you would have to \"tune out\" the stations.

I have been lucky enough that there was no strong station at the
frequency.  I left a note inside so I or the next owner doesn\'t have to
hunt for it.

I don\'t think that would have been legal, certainly not in the UK.

I doubt it was illegal at that short a distance.   You can (or could
recently) buy a transmitter to convert something (mp3?) into FM to go to
your car stereo.  It wouldn\'t get far outside the car.

I remember reading an ancient book on building your own radio, and they
mentioned regenerative receivers with only a single valve. Some would
emit back on the receiving antena, so they said don\'t do this, it is
illegal and nasty on your neighbours. Better use two valves, isolating
the oscillator from the antena.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regenerative_circuit

--
Cheers, Carlos.
 
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On 2023-02-16, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 12 Feb 2023 14:27:41 -0000, Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote:
[...]
And sports cars with knock off hubs and wire wheels where a left hand
thread is used on one side (forget which) so it doesn\'t some undone if
the cap (or whatever) rubs against something.

Funny how most cars don\'t seem to need that.

Different design. The lug nuts on modern cars are part of the rotating
hub/brake assembly behind the wheel itself; and so there are no (or very
few) forces trying to unscrew the nuts from the studs.

The wheel Max describes is more like if you simply use a (stationary)
bolt as the axle for a wheel -- a lot like the training wheels on a
child\'s bike. The rotating wheel\'s friction against a (single) nut can
cause the nut to become unscrewed.

And the pressure reducers used on LPG cylinders: propane is the opposite
way to butane so you can\'t connect the wrong one.

What\'s wrong with different sized connectors?

Thinking you\'re tightening a gas pipe and you\'re actually undoing it
is dangerous.

Thinking you\'re connecting a regulator to a nonflammable gas is ALSO
dangerous (significantly moreso, in fact). Which is why the thread
forms are standardized that nonflammable gasses are right-hand, and
flammable are left-hand. Although, that might \"only\" be in industrial
applications; I know they\'re backwards for those boring little
hand-torch bottles you can buy at a hardware store (i.e. the little
oxygen bottles are left-handed, whereas the propane / MAP tanks are
right-handed).

Don\'t forget that reverse-threaded nuts used in gas (and other)
applications have a groove cut around the circumference of the points at
about the midline as an indicator. For example, this hose-barb adapter:

https://lenzinc.com/sites/default/files/WL%20A.jpg

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|_|O|_|
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860
 
On 2023-02-18 22:48, NY wrote:
On 18/02/2023 12:43, Max Demian wrote:
On 18/02/2023 00:29, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Mains was always AC wasn\'t it?

If course it wasn\'t (in the UK). Mains was AC or DC, and 120V (or so)
to 250V (or so).

I knew that mains was sometimes DC, but I didn\'t know that it was
sometimes as low as 120 V. I that, AC or DC, it was always around 240 V
(actual for DC, or RMS for AC).

The DC would also be RMS, I think. It was not constant as in a battery,
but oscillating, from a dynamo.

--
Cheers, Carlos.
 
On 2/21/2023 2:46 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
More thermal inertia in a full fridge or freezer so the compressor comes on
less often. Also less cold air to fall onto the floor when you open the fridge
door.

Sadly, frigs with freezer on the bottom (loaded from above)
often are implemented as \"baskets\" (of a sort). So,
pulling out the drawer causes all of the cold air to \"fall\"
out the bottom!

Freezer *chests* don\'t have this problem because they
truly are accessed from above (there\'s no \"refrigerator
compartment\" above that mandates pulling the freezer\'s
contents out in a drawer).

We find that the freezer chest runs less often when packed
with ~100 qts of OJ, 15 qts of lemon juice, etc. There\'s
just so much \"ice\" present -- and, cold air doesn\'t \"fall\"
out -- that it can coast for quite a while (subject to
quality of insulation and ambient temperature).

We\'ve learned to store a 5G container of *water* in the
freezer when space permits just to give us this added
protection (when a freezer fails, it\'s hard to find enough
\"alternate freezer capability\" to keep that much stuff
FROZEN while a replacement is located)

[We also routinely store \"blue ice\" (reusable ice packs)
in the freezers as they are needed when fetching cold and
frozen goods from the store as those things would
otherwise melt in the short trip home -- after other stops,
of course!]
 
On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 23:17:41 -0000, John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandsnipmetechnology.com> wrote:

On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 16:23:28 -0500, Ralph Mowery
rmowery42@charter.net> wrote:

In article <op.10bnphu3mvhs6z@ryzen.home>, CK1@nospam.com says...

Public policy should quantify what a life is worth. I\'ve seen cases
that mathed out to $3000, and some in the many billions.

Everybody\'s life is worth exactly as much as the amount of life
insurance that they see fit to carry.

Currently, mine is worth $0.

I carry no life insurance on myself or the wife.. Waste of money. We
are both over 70 and have enough in the IRA and SS to lve like we wsnt
even if one of us die. Maybe more if one dies as no more medicine to
buy.

My company has \"key man\" life insurance on me. In case I lose the
keys, I suppose.

English is great fun. One word can mean many things. I wonder what the
record is.

https://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/english-word-with-the-most-meanings

Most of those are the same meaning. For example set a table and set you on fire are the same thing. You\'re changing the state of something.
 
On 2023-02-18 01:23, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 12 Feb 2023 23:08:57 -0000, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2023-02-12 23:00, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 12 Feb 2023 20:42:33 +0100, \"Carlos E.R.\" <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2023-02-12 20:34, Mark Lloyd wrote:
On 2/12/23 07:39, Carlos E.R. wrote:

[snip]

I couldn\'t really see the difference between a used needle and a new
one, and I hope I didn\'t damage any of the records.

They do, new or not. Lots of weight in the arm.

Her record player doesn\'t have speakers, not even one, or any controls
except on/off.  For sound you have to turn on a nearby AM radio and tune
to the right frequency. I meant to check if that means I can listen all
over the house, which would be really nice, but until just now, I\'d
forgotten about

No, that\'s not how they worked.

Radios of that era had a setting named \"phone\".

You mean \"phono\".  Just an AUX input but lower voltage.

Right.

And a socket. You
connected the output of the \"electric gramophone\" pickup to the phone
input of the radio, which was actually the audio amplifier section.

The radio could have a switch to disable the radio section or not, in
which case you would have to \"tune out\" the stations.

Some didn\'t think to turn off item A when using item B?!

Not a question of thinking, but of manufacturing price.


--
Cheers, Carlos.
 
On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 21:23:28 -0000, Ralph Mowery <rmowery42@charter.net> wrote:

In article <op.10bnphu3mvhs6z@ryzen.home>, CK1@nospam.com says...

Public policy should quantify what a life is worth. I\'ve seen cases
that mathed out to $3000, and some in the many billions.

Everybody\'s life is worth exactly as much as the amount of life
insurance that they see fit to carry.

Currently, mine is worth $0.

I carry no life insurance on myself or the wife.. Waste of money. We
are both over 70 and have enough in the IRA and SS to lve like we wsnt
even if one of us die. Maybe more if one dies as no more medicine to
buy.

You have enough money because you haven\'t spent half of it on insurance premiums. Remember folks, insurance companies make a profit. Keep that profit to yourselves.
 
On 2023-02-18 01:27, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 03:59:24 -0000, micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 13 Feb 2023 00:08:57 +0100, \"Carlos E.R.\" <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2023-02-12 23:00, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 12 Feb 2023 20:42:33 +0100, \"Carlos E.R.\" <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2023-02-12 20:34, Mark Lloyd wrote:
On 2/12/23 07:39, Carlos E.R. wrote:

[snip]

I couldn\'t really see the difference between a used needle and a new
one, and I hope I didn\'t damage any of the records.

They do, new or not. Lots of weight in the arm.

That\'s for sure.  In fact it\'s lifting the arm off of its support that
turns the steel turntable on.

A cheap stereo from the 90s was like that.  Switch built into the arm.

I prefer the Garrard turntable my grandfather built into a big wooden
box with big amplifiers.  Auto stop, cushioned lowering of the stylus
etc.  Very smooth everything, the turntable had a lot of inertia in it,
must have been a big heavy flywheel underneath for smooth rotation.

The plate itself is the flywheel. Good ones were heavy.

....

--
Cheers, Carlos.
 

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