Why do circuit breakers go up for on and down for off?...

[Commander Kinsey]

On Wed, 15 Feb 2023 16:34:33 -0000, Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On 14/02/2023 18:10, SteveW wrote:
Our house was perfectly legal before we had it re-wired. It had actual
wire fuses, and rubber coated wiring running through the thatched roof.

And would have remained perfectly acceptable (assuming no serious
deterioration), over the coming years.

It was legal. It was _not_ acceptable to our insurance company. No idea
what the POs did, but I wouldn\'t be surprised if they didn\'t have it
properly insured.

Insurance is a scam, get rid of it. Put the money in savings to pay for anything that probably won\'t happen.

\"The wiring needs urgent attention\" said our surveyor. He was actually
surprised we bought it - on his advice we\'d rejected a previous house.
But that one had several items of the sort \"Take that apart, and you\'ll
be able to see what it will cost\". This one had no unknown items. We did
find a couple, but nothing major.

My insurance company never saw my wiring. None of their business.

 

[Dan Purgert]

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On 2023-02-16, Carlos E.R. wrote:

On 2023-02-15 11:12, Dan Purgert wrote:
[\"Followup-To:\" header set to sci.electronics.design.]
On 2023-02-14, Carlos E.R. wrote:
[...]
For instance, the book I started learning English taught the expression
\"it is raining cats and dogs\". Most of the times I tried to use it,
nobody understood it and I had to explain :-D

That\'s a very common idiom in American English (uh, well, at least
around here anyway). Where were you trying to use the phrase?

Ottawa, most probably.

Huh, I\'d expect being that close to the US border, it\'d filter up; but
then again \"regional\" things and all that.

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[Commander Kinsey]

On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 10:47:42 -0000, Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On 11/02/2023 15:35, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Yes, same in UK.

Although if you fit RCBOs, you can go to a higher all house RCD trip level

AIUI it is not mandatory to fit these to existing installations.

Our house was perfectly legal before we had it re-wired. It had actual
wire fuses,

Mine still does. No false trips here. Only blown one once. A faulty halogen spotlight. Those things were shit.

> and rubber coated wiring running through the thatched roof.

Ah, that nice bendy stuff instead of the stiff shit they use nowadays. I always wire things with flex. The ends are easier to get into the connectors too.

> The new wiring has all the modern features.

Like what?

 

[NY]

On 16/02/2023 12:30, Carlos E.R. wrote:

I think all houses have circuit breakers, but that doesn\'t mean they
have a fully compliant installation.

If you include fuse-wire fuses in the category of \"circuit breakers\",
then yes.

I presume MCBs (miniature circuit breakers) are mandated (or at least
strongly advised!) in current UK wiring regulations (not \"code\"!).

I was surprised that my first house, built in 1986, was fitted with wire
fuses rather than circuit breakers - and no RCD. I have a photo of the
fuse box with black staining over the Bakelite fuse-wire holders and
extending up the wall, when my immersion heater switched itself on at 1
AM when the Economy 7 tariff kicked in, and the immersion heater
developed a short circuit. I was woken by a loud bang with a metallic
resonance to it. The fuse box and wallpaper were coated with vaporised
metal (I presume) from what *had* be a 30 A fuse, and there was a slight
outward dent in the copper cylinder where I imagine the end of the
immersion heater element had been fired into the wall of the cylinder.

It was an \"amusing\" job draining the header tank (built onto the top of
the cylinder), disconnecting the outlet pipe, \"walking\" the full tank
round far enough to reach the drain cock (which was at the *back* - good
old Sod\'s Law) and then draining the cylinder through a hosepipe. I
hired a box spanner to undo the immersion heater (in the wall of the
cylinder, near the bottom) and after a lot of \"persuasion\" with a hammer
managed to loosen the heater. I removed the tank altogether and washed
out as much of the loose limescale and bits of shredded immersion heater
element, before fitting the new element and connecting up the pipes again.

I mentioned at work that hassle I\'d had, and one colleague sheepishly
told me that he\'d once had to do this, but he\'d forgotten one crucial
step: emptying the cylinder. He got the element almost unscrewed and
when there was only one thread holding it in place, the pressure of
water ripped off the last thread and fired the element into his thigh,
followed by a 4\" \"plug\" of water. There was nothing he could do except
watch a hundred litres of water cascade onto the floor, down the stairs
and through the ceilings. :-(

 

[SteveW]

On 18/02/2023 15:05, Max Demian wrote:

On 18/02/2023 13:14, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 18/02/2023 12:43, Max Demian wrote:
On 18/02/2023 00:29, Commander Kinsey wrote:

Mains was always AC wasn\'t it?

If course it wasn\'t (in the UK). Mains was AC or DC, and 120V (or so)
to 250V (or so).


Mains was always AC post WWII and probably post the advent of consumer
tube radios and IIRC was always 240VAC post WWII.

\"The Electricity (Supply) Act 1919 merged the 600-odd local generating
companies into area boards, who in turn were centralised into the
Central Electricity Board by the Electricity Supply Act 1925. That is
when the voltage was standardised at 240V, and the National Grid created.

And then the EU stole ten of our good, English volts!

Have we got them back yet?

No they didn\'t. The reference simply changed to 230V, so that 220V and
240V countries could use the same, single design of 230V equipment,
designed with a wide enough tolerance to cope with the lowest permitted
voltage on 220V systems and the highest permitted voltage on 240V
systems. The voltage supplied did not change.

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Tue, 14 Feb 2023 18:10:58 -0000, SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk> wrote:

On 14/02/2023 10:47, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 11/02/2023 15:35, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Yes, same in UK.

Although if you fit RCBOs, you can go to a higher all house RCD trip
level

AIUI it is not mandatory to fit these to existing installations.

With RCBOs, you don\'t need an all house RCD at all.

You don\'t need either.

You certainly don\'t have to upgrade your system, unless you are doing
major work on it.

Even then you don\'t.

However, where you have no RCD, it is worth looking at
adding one for your own safety.

Electricity usually doesn\'t kill. It has to pass through your heart, and you have to have a heart defect. I\'ve had seven 240V shocks right through my torso, just made me jump. Not painful, not harmful.

Where you have an RCD, it is worth
considering RCBOs, giving you the safety and the reduced chances of a
false trip, plus not tripping all circuits for a single fault.

Fuses have even less chance of false trips.

> As RCBOs have come down to below 20 GBP each,

Fuses are a fraction of that.

I took the opportunity to
remove the RCD and replace all the RCD protected MCBs with RCBOs. I have
since replaced unprotected (lighting) MCBs with RCBOs.

Meanwhile I spent all that on a holiday.

Our house was perfectly legal before we had it re-wired. It had actual
wire fuses, and rubber coated wiring running through the thatched roof.

And would have remained perfectly acceptable (assuming no serious
deterioration), over the coming years.

And yet you would have replaced it.

The new wiring has all the modern features.

Yes, it\'s worth it for peace of mind.

Fuses prevent fire, that\'s all you need.

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 13:32:14 -0000, NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:

\"Carlos E.R.\" <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote in message
news:kufpbjxm4u.ln2@Telcontar.valinor...
Essentially a stalled motor is a damn great inductor.

One of these...

https://www.meccanospares.com/E15R-BK-O.html


Found mine.

https://images.app.goo.gl/F9SPtFogTbukss1L8

When I was little I used to play with my dad\'s Meccano from when he was a
boy. That had a single-speed motor. The frame of the motor used heavier-duty
versions of the flat plates with holes in that were used elsewhere in
Meccano. He kept all his parts in a big wooden box with wooden drawers with
compartments: probably made by my Grandpa.

Sadly my dad lent all the Meccano to a work colleague for his son to play
with, and when he came to ask for it back some year later the colleague said
\"Oh, I thought you\'d *given* it to me, not lent it to me. When [son] grew
too old for it, we took it to the tip.\" Grrrrrr. Old Meccano from the
1940s/50s would probably be worth a bit nowadays.

People who throw out usable stuff should be shot. Have they not heard of Gumtree, Ebay, Freecycle? The government could make it a law against the environment or something.

 

[Tabby]

On Saturday, 18 February 2023 at 09:47:07 UTC, Martin Brown wrote:

Does the US have the same ring main configuration as the UK or is that
method peculiar to us?

very different. AFAIK the UK is the only country to use ring circuits.

And our fridges are more than 4 cuft!

 

[Tabby]

On Monday, 20 February 2023 at 10:17:35 UTC, Don Y wrote:

On 2/20/2023 2:22 AM, James wrote:
On 19/02/2023 12:30, Don Y wrote:

No but your answers here should understand the problems others are
facing. Quote: \'My comment (above) was with regard to the *increase*
in cost (from \"rate hikes\") as being relatively modest.\' They are not.

How much should I alter my behavior to reflect the conditions in
Ukraine, today?

Your behaviour should not be dismissive of others that may have experienced
tripled energy costs.
Why should your problems be mine? Are you going to do anything to refill
Lakes Meade & Powell? Or, address gun violence, here? Shouldn\'t you
feel morally obligated to do so? (as you seem to think USAins have
to behave as brits in our values and approaches to problems)

Drive smaller cars.

we do. They\'re over twice as safe as American cars, under half the cost and about twice as fuel efficient.

> Own smaller refrigerators.

we do

> Use less energy.

we do

> Be more fit.

we are

> Lose collective weight.

we are less obese than US

I can solve your energy problem: develop new energy sources! See how
easy that was?

oddly, it is not now solved

I can solve your political problems: throw everyone out at the next
election and arrange for that to happen RSN. Repeat until the folks
who end up in office actually respond to your needs. Another simple fix!

the UK has been doing that for decades. It has not worked, and isn\'t going to

Should I be more *appreciative* of the fact
that I have lights and sanitation?

Probably yes. You are getting there.

A comment I hear from my right-wing friends is that the EU \"deserves\"
the (energy) problems they\'re facing because they cozied up to Russia,
(presumably for short-term savings at the expense of energy independence).
\"Why should *we* be shipping fuels to them and driving up domestic
prices? Shouldn\'t we try to capitalize on their dilemma? Isn\'t that
\'supply-and-demand\'? Maybe their markets will \'teach them\' that lesson...\"

A valid although incomplete view point but that is politics over which I have
minimal control. I can influence my energy bill by reducing consumption. In a
technical group it is valid to be interested in that consumption. We do not
need quips.
\"Quips\" -- comments that you don\'t like. Regardless of how accurately they
reflect reality. Would you prefer if I cooed and reassured you that it\'ll
be OK, don\'t fret?

your idea of reality on this topic is too naive to be constructive. You show no grasp of what\'s going on here. Energy costs are just one aspect of our probable imminent complete loss of \'democracy\'.

I don\'t feel much sympathy for folks who rob banks and get shot by the
police. They screwed up (YOU screwed up with your energy policies).

we did not, our politicians did. Politics here is not the same as the US.

You could be spending your time working for pols who would get you out of your
problems.

you really don\'t get it. Those who could solve it are not going to get elected.

Or, is that someone *else\'s* problem? It seems like you\'re just
opting for the easy solution: \"I measure everything\". But, you likely still
use more energy than *essential* -- does that make you feel inadequate as a
person?

Or, *design* something that saves energy -- but, on a *significant* scale
(not some incremental reduction). India needs an economical refrigeration
solution -- on a massive scale. See what you can offer, there.

Or, figure out how you are going to convince entire national populations
that they should adopt your value system(s). And, test that approach
on each nation!

You remind me of the careers advice I got. It was patently obvious what my career was going to be, I was already doing the relevant qualification & involved with the relevant company. I protested but was required to go get this \'advice\', which was more clueless than I had imagined possible.

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 20:37:51 -0000, Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2023-02-13 20:55, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 18:16:19 -0000, Clare Snyder <clare@snyder.on.ca
wrote:

On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 06:01:11 -0500, Ben Verified - ?
ben.verified@fact.checker-org> wrote:

Commander Kinsey wrote:
Why do circuit breakers go up for on and down for off? Would they work
installed upside down?


Apparently Trudeau\'s socialist Canada installs half their breakers
upside down.

https://i.redd.it/j5zo6fs9cn381.jpg
Actually MOST of them are sideways!!!. In Britain the don\'t use
center tapped single phase so ALL of their breakers face the same
direction.

Why would the centre tap have anything to do with them going in the same
direction?

It does...

You need to know which side of the tap it is for some reason?

 

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2023-02-18 14:09, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 18/02/2023 12:37, Max Demian wrote:
On 17/02/2023 21:04, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Wed, 15 Feb 2023 16:57:19 -0000, Max Demian
max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote:
On 15/02/2023 14:48, Commander Kinsey wrote:

Mind you the whole idea of metal wheels on metal tracks is crazy.
If I
drive my car with bald tyres, I\'m breaking the law.

Works though; provided there are no \"leaves on the line\".

(Something to with the friction between similar metals I think.)

There\'s fuck all friction, which is why they want the cars to wait
for the train at a level crossing, and not the other way round.  And
why the new tunnel the Germans are building couldn\'t go right
underground and had to be installed on the bottom of the ocean,
because the pathetic toy trains couldn\'t handle the incline.  This is
the 21st century, we have cars.  Public transport is for chavs.

If there were no friction between train wheels and track acceleration
and braking wouldn\'t happen.

The reason railway tracks are so level is so that the engines can have
the minimum power to pull the train. Very steep inclines would require
extra locomotives to be put on to get up the hills.

Steam locos were not rated in horsepower, but \'tractive effort\' . How
many tons of pull they could generate before the wheels slipped.

That\'s why they had a lot of driving wheels - at least four, generally 6
 and up to 8.

I suppose this assumes that the tracks do not bend, vertically or
horizontally, or some of the wheels could loose pressure, as there are
no springs on the loco wheels (but the wagons do have them, so there
must be imperfections on the tracks).

At a given slope even  the loco alone cant get up it which is where rack
and pinion railways come in.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

 

[Tabby]

On Monday, 20 February 2023 at 10:17:39 UTC, Don Y wrote:

On 2/20/2023 2:22 AM, James wrote:
On 19/02/2023 12:21, Don Y wrote:

Here, all food products cary a \"nutrition label\". It gives
the consumer information as to serving size (supposedly
somewhat standardized within product families), number of
servings in container, calories, fat, sodium, etc. per serving.

You\'d think that abundance of data would lead to a population
that is \"fit\" and \"healthy\"!

I certainly wouldn\'t. There is more to health than nutrition labelling. It also requires at least good nutritional advice, education, motivation & affordable options. As a society we fail on all of those.

But, there\'s no real way to use
the data in day-to-day decisions

I do

-- other than choosing between
similar items (\"This one has more fat per serving...\").

I see no need to restrict choices to similar items

You
can\'t use the data to plan a diet because there are simply
too many choices and opportunities, during a day, to MAKE
those choices.

nonsequitur

(\"If I eat this, now, can I compensate for
> it with my eating choices later, today?\")

the label info answers that pretty quickly. Typically it\'s no.

Maybe energy shouldn\'t be importable -- every nation should have
to live within it\'s local means (why impose on neighbors for your
shortfalls?). Locally adopt changes to meet your available resources.
Without \"impinging\" on others who don\'t have them! You can impose
whatever sort of draconian measures your population will tolerate
to solve *its* problem!

what problem do you think preventing international trade in energy would solve? I can\'t think of one

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 20:42:36 -0000, Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2023-02-13 20:57, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 18:30:39 -0000, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2023-02-11 13:23, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 11:58:23 -0000, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2023-02-11 10:00, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 08:48:06 -0000, Colin Bignell <cpb@bignellremovethis.me.uk> wrote:
On 11/02/2023 08:16, Commander Kinsey wrote:


But reverse screws do exist.

They shouldn\'t.

Disassemble a house fan, and you will see one such reverse bolt, and
understand why they exist

WTF is a house fan? Kitchen extractor? Ceiling fan?

This, for instance:

https://images.app.goo.gl/gfKp7pjz2KzmgG7o6

Not a computer fan.

There is no reason, unless you think the blades must rotate in a
particular direction for some reason.

But actually, they do.

What is that reason? There\'s nothing special about clockwise which makes airflow better.

 

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2023-02-18 19:27, Mark Lloyd wrote:

On 2/17/23 14:03, SteveW wrote:

[snip]

There are also a lot of phrases that come from the Royal Navy - square
meal (from the square wooden plates); between the devil and the deep
blue sea - the devil being the final plank of a deck, against the side
of the ship and the hardest to fit; the bitter end - the end of a rope
... especially if you missed catching it as the rope went over the
side; and a whole lot more.

I seem to remember something about \"son of a gun\".

«To be made to “kiss the gunner\'s daughter” is to be tied over a cannon
(the gunner\'s daughter) in order to be beaten, usually with a cat of
nine tails. The phrase dates back at least to 1785 but is probably
older.Oct 13, 2008»

Sailor Talk - \"Kissing the Gunner\'s Daughter\" and \"Sucking the ...
Old Salt Blog
https://www.oldsaltblog.com › 2008/10 › sailor-talk-kissi...



I know it because there is a novel by Ruth Rendell:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kissing_the_Gunner%27s_Daughter

--
Cheers, Carlos.

 

[Tabby]

On Monday, 20 February 2023 at 12:07:24 UTC, Don Y wrote:

On 2/20/2023 4:19 AM, James wrote:
On 20/02/2023 10:17, Don Y wrote:
On 2/20/2023 2:22 AM, James wrote:
On 19/02/2023 12:21, Don Y wrote:

And, what do they do when they
don\'t like what they see, return it?

Yes or not switch it on.

You buy things to *use* them, not worship them.

Not 100% of the time. If it is an old existing device stop using it
or replace.

And *you* get to make that decision for *me*? Wow, full
of yourself, eh?

I will quote your text from above \"when *they* don\'t like\". The decision to
not like was not made by me. I was answering the \"And, what do they do when\".
You don\'t have to follow my answer. Please, Don...
Here is the entire quote:
\"So, instead of just *using* devices, you expect consumers
to quantify the costs of each. And, what do they do when
they don\'t like what they see, return it? Will you publish
a comprehensive catalog of every energy consuming device
with costs normalized so consumers can make informed choices?\"
So, the consumer has taken on the task of quantifying the
cost of each candidate device. Most stores don\'t let you walk
in and test devices on the showroom floor. So, you had to
*purchase* the device(s) and bring them home. Then, set up
a (repeatable) experiment that you could use to collect comparison
data. Thereafter, one (or both) will likely not meet their
goals (one will likely always be \"better\") so they must return
the device(s) that they found \"inadequate\".

And, do this for every device they might consider purchasing.
Noting, of course, that the manufacturer is under no obligation
to keep the design constant between units/purchases. So, any
\"results\" are only applicable to the units actually tested.
Repeat a \"satisfied\" purchase a month later and the results
may be different!

If (as in my original examples) you already own a device
(no store involved -- yet!), you still have to dedicate
considerable time to designing a repeatable experiment
and then running it. And, may not be able to make any
practical sense of the data you obtain!

Hot wash, delicate cycle: AAAA
Hot wash, heavy soil: BBBB
Cold wash, delicate cycle: CCCC
Cold wash, heavy soil: DDDD

First order of business, come up with a way of soiling
garments repeatably -- and hope the fabric\'s repeated
laundering doesn\'t affect it\'s ability to retain soil!

Second order of business, come up with a set of criteria
to judge how \"clean\" the results are, after wash. I.e.,
if cost1 < cost2 but remaining_soil1 > remaining_soil2,
which is the more efficient solution? Do I have to
wash #1, again, to meet the same cleanliness levels of #2?
Maybe #2 is cleaner than it needs to be??

[I can always opt NOT to launder in which case my energy
costs will always be lowest! But, cleanliness will suffer!]

What will the break-even point be for these tests as they
are each \"unnecessary\" in the lives of the garments being
tested? The energy expended during the tests is \"wasted\".

Third item, what constitutes a \"bad\" result? How much energy
is \"too much\" to remove a particular amount of soil? Do
you have normalized data from other appliances against
which you can compare your results? What if the soil is a
permanent *stain*?

Fourth item, how do you combine results for more optimal
utilization? E.g., if I wash my whites on hot, they tend to
come cleaner than in cold. But, if I have to run an extra
wash cycle JUST for whites (instead of combining with
something else that *could* be \"satisfactorily\" washed cold),
then I\'m being more wasteful than necessary.

And this is just *washing*. What about drying? Different
heat settings, steam, dryness levels, etc. And, relative
to drying on a line? Or, out of doors? (does time of day,
time of year affect the decision?)

People don\'t have the skills, patience or time to be \"amateur
scientists\". Nor do they want to. They want to spin a knob
to a particular setting and hit START. They are banking on the
manufacturer having decided that the soil-level/fabric-type
they\'ve selected will be cleaned adequately (which is not
necessarily the same as most energy efficiently!)

Wow. Here we just require retailers to have energy consumption on the label.

 

[Peeler]

On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:10:42 +0000, Max Dumbian, the REAL dumb, notorious,
troll-feeding senile idiot, blathered again:

Anything communal is complicated. Whose job is it to fix it if it goes
wrong? What if one person short circuits it, or one says it\'s OK and the
other says it isn\'t? Usually all right if there is a management company
for the block.

There is NOTHING \"communal\" in the PROVEN clinically insane sociopath\'s,
troll\'s and gay wanker\'s abnormal sociopathic \"life\", you idiotic,
troll-feeding senile ASSHOLE!

--
Max Dumb having another senile moment:
\"It\'s the consistency of the shit that counts. Sometimes I don\'t need to
wipe, but I have to do so to tell. Also humans have buttocks to get
smeared due to our bipedalism.\"
Message-ID: <6vydnWiYDoV1VUrDnZ2dnUU78QednZ2d@brightview.co.uk>

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 20:48:25 -0000, Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2023-02-13 21:37, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 12 Feb 2023 00:50:47 -0000, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 20:39:06 +0000, Graham. wrote:

Telephone vs calculator keypad layout. How did that happen?

I never realized they were. I\'m left handed and never use the keypad on
the right of the keyboard nor do I use calculators often enough to think
about it.

Uh.... why would you need to use the keypad with your dominant hand?
Both hands are used to type.

I can not type numbers in the number keypad with my left hand: it is too
far.

You didn\'t read what I wrote. I\'ll try again reworded. Why not type numbers with your right hand?

Of course, being \"right handed\" I\'m actually ambidextrous like the
majority of the population. Maybe lefties are different.

I do remember Ma Bell\'s kiosk at the \'64 World\'s Fair where they were
convincing the public how much better touch tone was than rotary.

Rotary took fucking ages to dial long distance.

Much faster than talking with the operator, and waiting an hour to to
get the call.

I never had to wait longer than the time taken to speak to her.

As kids, we used a public phonebox to be rude to the operator. When my sister\'s friend asked the operator for the code to her house, she engaged some kind of alarm which made a very loud noise from the phone box telephone. Since it was in the middle of a campsite, we didn\'t get into trouble. I guess the operator was against lesbians.

And a very long time to
dial the UK emergency 999. Should have been 111.

It is 112 here.

And 911 in the USA which is ridiculous.

Actually they all work everywhere incase you\'re on holiday.

 

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2023-02-18 19:59, Mark Lloyd wrote:

On 2/17/23 16:21, Carlos E.R. wrote:

[snip]

It is now a legal and recognised sign to following drivers, on a fast
road, such as a motorway or dual-carriageway, that you are
approaching standing traffic and slowing quickly to a stop. As such
it needs to be activated quickly and without having to take your eyes
off the road.

I think that the legal way to do it here is touch the brake lightly
several times to make the red lights blink.

\"touch the brake lightly\" when you need to do it hard?

Well, hopefully you are alert and keeping distances and you see the
danger with ample time :-D

You can hit the brakes hard, but intermittently - very uncomfortable on
passengers.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

 

[Don Y]

On 2/20/2023 11:18 PM, Tabby wrote:

One can find refrigerators at all different price points based on
size, reliability, warranty, appearance, features, etc.

how do you assess reliability?

By reputation and past experiences. It\'s not a guarantee but I

the reality is most buyers have little ability to assess electrical
reliability, and most high ticket appliances don\'t prove more reliable than
bog standard

You don\'t \"assess\" their reliability. You take note of experiences
your friends and neighbors have had, talk to neighbors who own
appliance stores and quiz them and their technicians about the
frequency (and cost) of service calls on various makes/models, etc.

If you just walk into a store and buy something, caveat emptor.

none of the home despot links work. It doesn\'t matter, I\'m sure no
domestic fridge is worth 4k

One can live with a 1.5 cu ft refrigerator. Really! You just spend

obviously one can live with any size fridge, including zero

Of course! As I\'ve said numerous times, we opt for convenience,
here. You pitch something as a time saver not as an energy saver.
With most households having two wage earners, *someone* has
to come home from work and get dinner on the table in short
order. No \"Mom\'s\" to stay home all day and have dinner
*ready* and waiting.

Want an ice maker? Want something besides plain white? Water
dispenser (with internal filter)? Crushed ice? Through the door
dispensing? Counter depth? A camera to see what\'s inside without
opening the door (or, while you\'re off shopping)? Door-in-door?
HiTech?

No.

Icemaker is almost taken for granted.

I seldom see them here. Like most people I regard them as completely
pointless

I doubt I could find a kitchen with \"ice trays\" -- except in
the \"less advantaged\" parts of town. Most folks would have
the choice of ice *dispensed* in cube or crushed form.
Again, convenience.

A bachelor might be satisfied with a plain white refrigerator

almost everyone is satisfied with plain white fridges here. If there\'s
anything wrong with that it\'s news to me.

Kitchen appliances routinely go through \"color changes\", here.
Stainless was \"in\". Then it wasn\'t. Black Stainless now seems to
be en vogue. White is typically a sign of a less expensive offering.
Sometimes black. You\'ll likely never find an almond or avocado
appliance purchased recently.

Some vendors allow the appearance of appliances to be altered
or customized. E.g., our dishwasher looks like a kitchen cabinet
as the controls are hidden and there is no need for a window
to view its contents.

Home buyers will note the \"color\" (for want of a better word) of
the kitchen appliances as a way to gauge how contemporary the
most recent remodel will have been.

(likely seldom cleaned) as the kitchen is just a *functional* place --
like the bathroom: prep meal and get the hell out!

straw man

Reality.

I find through-the-door a waste of useful volume as the interior of that
door is effectively forfeit to the icemaker/crusher and water dispenser.
But, folks with kids likely find it a big convenience as they aren\'t
constantly opening the door to the refrigerator just to get some ice or a
cold beverage.

we don\'t seem to suffer that problem. Maybe you live somewhere horribly hot

I would guess the refrigerator in most homes is opened dozens of times
each day (when occupied). Especially in homes with children or retirees.
Note that:

<https://www.mylot.com/post/1542057/how-many-times-a-day-do-you-open-the-refrigerator>

cites a study claiming \"22 times per person per day\". No idea if that
would truly be \"per person\" but, reading through the comments, others
have stated:
- \"i think if i sum up all the times that the fridge is opened by all
of us, it would exceed the 22 times a day average\"
- \"It’s hard to keep track, but I think with just me and my dog I still
exceed that number.\"
- \"I open mine about 12-15 times a day so well below average but the
majority of the time there is only me here, when the girls are home
that would at least double\"
- \"Its only 9 am and I know ive been in the fridge like 10 times already.\"
etc. So, \"often\" is likely a better figure for describing the
frequency that folks access (or view) the contents of their frigs.

Newer refrigerators have tricks to reduce the number of times
the door must be opened. E.g., water and ice \"through the door\";
glass door panels and a means of switching the internal light
on WITHOUT opening the door (\"knock\") so you can \"browse\"
without having to let all the cooled air out; smaller doors that
allow access to a subset of the frig\'s contents without having
to open the \"real\" door(s), etc.

<https://newatlas.com/lg-door-in-door-super-capacity-fridge/23363/>

(Note that it claims \"32 percent of the 1,000 or so American families
questioned said that their refrigerator door is opened between 20 and
50 times each day, with so-called \"go-to\" foods ranking high among the
regular quick grab and go visits.\")

Older (single door) refrigerators can be installed so the door
tends to close, even if not actively closed. This is not the case
on french door refrigerators where the door can partially close but
not seal. Refrigerators now have alarms that will detect if the door
is left open/ajar too long.

We drink cold water (unheated water is not cold, here -- esp in the
summer months!) from the refrigerator AFTER it has been filtered
to remove sediment and chlorine \"flavors\". How many glasses of water
do YOU drink, daily? Multiply by the number of occupants. Plus
a pot of coffee in the morning and two pots of tea (using filtered
water, of course)

It would not be uncommon to open the door half a dozen times
while preparing a meal -- because you wouldn\'t want to leave
all of the ingredients (e.g., raw meat) \"out\" while you
were busy preparing other parts of the meal.

SWMBO opens the door probably hourly -- to fetch some chocolate,
cookies, cheese, etc. When the dogs were here, that was another
8 or 9 visits to the frig to retrieve their food (not counting
the times it was opened to *store* their food as it was prepared
in bulk).

Did I mention \"convenience\"?

Want to impress your friends? At only $10,400:

nor do I want to \'impress\' my friends with gross stupidity.

You likely are very practical -- walk or ride a bicycle everywhere (as
anything more than that would be extravagant?)

What do you do with the monies you have above and beyond what you *need*
to exist? Donate them back to The State? (then why didn\'t you retire all
those years earlier to ENJOY the time you have on the planet, instead of
working for \"non-stupid\" things?) Sounds pretty silly...

would it not be wise to get a clue about people\'s lives before making things
up & calling them silly?

You\'ve decided to throw shade on my, in particular (USAins, in general)
purchase decision:
\"why on earth would anyone pay 4k for domestic fridge\"
So, I assume all of that money that you are saving (4000 less the
150 you quoted) is being used for *something*. Why not tell us how
you are spending those \"extra funds\" -- so we can mock *your* choices?

We all trade our time and skills for \"compensation\". We then convert
that compensation into other things that appeal to our own needs
and desires.

A neighbor drives a $300K car. And, is upset because his girlfriend
drives a $1.6M vehicle! (if he upgrades, might she, also? perhaps
best to live with the $300K vehicle -- at least until you know whether
or not she\'s a keeper!).

Other neighbors have second (and third) homes.

Or, $200K motor homes.

Or, jet around the world for most of the year.

\"Why would anyone _______________?\"
Ans: Because it\'s THEIR money obtained from THEIR labors and *that\'s*
what they chose to convert those labors into.

Of course, if you don\'t *have* the money, that\'s a different
story -- that\'s why they make small white refrigerators!

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 20:51:08 -0000, Carlos E. R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2023-02-13 20:56, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 18:28:57 -0000, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2023-02-11 16:45, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 15:34:17 -0000, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 11/02/2023 12:01, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-02-11 12:31, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 11:16:07 -0000, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 11/02/2023 10:45, SteveW wrote:
On 11/02/2023 09:34, Brian Gaff wrote:



Earth and neutral are the same thing. Only two wires enter my house
from the substation.

Depends on the country.

It is not so even if \'only two wires enter the house\'.
Conventionally any metal pipes entering it provide the earth.

Wrong. My earth joins the neutral in the meter box.

Not here.

The neutral is grounded (to rods inserted in the mud) at the substation,
and at the homes we have to insert a different rod for earth, in our
mud, and is never joined to neutral.

\"Have to\"? You don\'t have to do anything. You have a perfectly good
ground in the wire, why make your own less effective one?

Here you do that, and the electricity company refuses to provide you
with electricity.

Do they regularly inspect your house? Nobody is allowed access to a UK house without a warrant.

> And someone gave you a perfect explanation of why that is dangerous as hell.

I have seen no such explanation. 0V is 0V.