Why do circuit breakers go up for on and down for off?...

[Peeler]

On Sun, 19 Feb 2023 10:36:44 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin\'s latest trollshit unread again>

 

[Mark Lloyd]

On 2/15/23 22:45, micky wrote:

[snip]

Well that\'s better than a penny. That used to be a famous remedy when
the fuse kept blowing, putting a penny in the fuse socket. I\'m sure it
started many a fire.

I remember seeing a drawing of a man standing in the smoking remains of
a house and saying \"at least I saved 68 cents on a new fuse\".

[snip]

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

\"Sentience and Intelligence are alike- You rarely know it\'s missing if
you don\'t have it.\"

 

[charles]

In article <jft7cjxpor.ln2@Telcontar.valinor>, Carlos E.R.
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2023-02-18 14:14, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 18/02/2023 12:43, Max Demian wrote:
On 18/02/2023 00:29, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 13:58:47 -0000, micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com
wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 13 Feb 2023 13:33:36 +0000, Max Demian
max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote:
On 13/02/2023 03:59, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 13 Feb 2023 00:08:57 +0100, \"Carlos
E.R.\" <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

Radios of that era had a setting named \"phone\". And a socket. You
connected the output of the \"electric gramophone\" pickup to the
phone

Every mains valve radio had a \"Gram\" or \"PU\" socket with switching,
usually combined with the waveband switch.

Every AC tube radio....

Mains was always AC wasn\'t it?

If course it wasn\'t (in the UK). Mains was AC or DC, and 120V (or so)
to 250V (or so).


Mains was always AC post WWII and probably post the advent of consumer
tube radios and IIRC was always 240VAC post WWII.

\"The Electricity (Supply) Act 1919 merged the 600-odd local generating
companies into area boards, who in turn were centralised into the
Central Electricity Board by the Electricity Supply Act 1925. That is
when the voltage was standardised at 240V, and the National Grid
created.

(But DC persisted, in some areas as late as the mid 60s. Refrigerators,
Vacuum Cleaners, Sewing Machines, Electric Drills, Radios and TVs were
available with universal input. They would all work on AC or DC 240V
(one or two DC areas were only 180V, like Dundee or Exeter))\"

how easy or dificult was it to obtain things to work on it? A different
voltage on a city would mean a bulb factory dedicated to that city, no?

Not just bulbs. All electrical appliances. While at university, I had a
coffee machine and a soldering iron which had 200v elements. Households
would obviously had many more items.

I remember in the late sixties visiting my mother village (Spain). They
had _some_ electricity, and paid by the number of bulbs in the house. It
was not metered.

--

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té
\"I\'d rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom\" Thomas Carlyle

 

[NY]

On 16/02/2023 18:30, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 16/02/2023 15:11, NY wrote:
On 16/02/2023 14:28, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 20:42:36 -0000, Carlos E. R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2023-02-13 20:57, Commander Kinsey wrote:
There is no reason, unless you think the blades must rotate in a
particular direction for some reason.

But actually, they do.

What is that reason?  There\'s nothing special about clockwise which
makes airflow better.

A quadcopter is a perfect example of this: four identical motors and
four identical propellers, except that two props have the same pitch
but opposite direction. A \"left-handed\" prop turning anti-clockwise
and a \"right-handed\" prop turning clockwise will generate identical
lift if the diameter and angle of pitch is the same. You don\'t need
motors of different power or props of different diameter/pitch to
compensate for one way being less efficient than the other.

Of course you must turn a prop in the direction that generates
positive lift rather than \"negative lift\". A \"left-handed\" prop and a
\"right-handed\" prop both turning clockwise would balance each other
out and don nothing (except generate a bit of rotational torque which
would turn the helicopter over, because the two props are displaced
sideways from each other. Actually if there were *four* props, I think
even rotational torque would be balanced: you\'d be expending a lot of
energy to have absolutely no effect ;-)

I see you haven\'t a fucking clue.
Quadcopters have two clockwise motors and props and threads and two anti
clockwise, anrranged diagonally opposite so that torque is evened out,
broadly.
To turn it you vary the power to one set of motors versus the other.
Pitch and roll is done by differential thrust on adjacent pairs

I don\'t think anything I said contradicts your description. Two
clockwise propellers run clockwise, to diagonally opposite
anti-clockwise propellers run anti-clockwise. What you don\'t do is run a
propeller two wrong way, otherwise you will generate \"anti-lift\" - a
downwards force that acts in the same direction as the weight. I suppose
very brief \"anti-lift\" on some propellers will change the attitude
(left/right and fore/aft) more quickly than just stopping two props.

But a clockwise prop turning clockwise and an anti-clockwise prop
turning anti-clockwise will generate identical lift, for the same speed,
diameter and pitch angle. There\'s nothing that makes one direction
better than the other, which is what Carlos\'s \"actually they do\" seems
to imply. Just as right-handed and left-handed screws are equally good
at joining pieces of wood/metal as long as you remember to turn them in
opposite directions ;-)

 

[James]

On 15/02/2023 10:25, Don Y wrote:

No, I mean all the other things that use energy without giving you
any sort of feedback as to how much you are using or how quickly.

E.g., what rate am I consuming energy when I wash clothes? (with
hot wash vs. cold, \"delicates\" cycle vs. heavy soil, etc.) Or,
taking a shower (what temperature? how long?) vs. bath. Or,
watching TV. etc.

How much power does the freezer use when it is \"lightly loaded\"?
What about when full (more thermal mass)? How does that vary
with the ambient temperature (summer vs. winter)?

Use a plug-in wall meter for a single device. \"Smart meters\" have a
display (remote, you have it in the house) that shows the overall
consumption rate. These data are relayed to the supplier and can be
viewed on their website as histograms of 15 minute intervals, per day,
month or year and compared to historic readings.

 

[John Larkin]

On Tue, 21 Feb 2023 09:46:05 +0000, Martin Brown
<\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

On 18/02/2023 16:00, John Larkin wrote:
On Wed, 15 Feb 2023 16:24:54 +0000, Martin Brown
\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

On 15/02/2023 10:48, Mike Monett VE3BTI wrote:
Martin Brown <\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

The remaining big power hog is the garage lights.

Your fridge is a big power hog. Set the refrigerator temperature to the
highest setting, usually around 45 degrees F or 7 degrees C. This is an
excellent temperature for keeping vegetables, especially potatoes.

UK fridges are much less of a power hog than US ones. The power it takes
to keep cool depends mostly on how often it gets opened and how full it
is.

How does fullness affect required cooling power?

More thermal inertia in a full fridge or freezer so the compressor comes
on less often.

How does that affect power?

Also less cold air to fall onto the floor when you open
the fridge door.

That sounds 3rd order to me.

 

[Peeler]

On Thu, 16 Feb 2023 12:57:59 -0600, Mark Lloyd, another absolutely brain
dead, troll-feeding, senile cretin, drivelled:


> My mother told me about that

Did your mommie tell you not to feed the troll, you blabbering senile
shithead?

 

[James]

On 15/02/2023 17:57, Don Y wrote:

The *cost* of energy is more than \"a fraction of a dollar, per day\".
My comment (above) was with regard to the *increase* in cost (from
\"rate hikes\") as being relatively modest. Unlike the price of
petrol which can rise 25-30% in short order (and fall again, somewhat).

If the price of a commodity that you regularly consume rises 5-10%,
you gripe and basically get used to the new price, rather than
significantly
changing your consumption. It\'s the *big*, sudden increases that folks
respond to.

We had a *3* *fold* *step* increase in the price of electricity and gas.
Yes, *300%*, and the domestic rates are capped by the government;
businesses pay more.

This is why we in UK and probably the rest of Europe are concerned and
suddenly looking for new ways of behaving.

 

[Peeler]

On Thu, 16 Feb 2023 13:04:43 -0600, Mark Lloyd, another absolutely brain
dead, troll-feeding, senile cretin, drivelled:


> Recently, we have been getting a lot of ads for utility line insurance.

Recently you\'ve been getting a lot more baits from the Scottish resident
attention whore, troll and wanker, and you typical miserable senile asshole
don\'t seem to mind becaus of your senility.

 

[James]

On 18/02/2023 16:00, John Larkin wrote:

> How does fullness affect required cooling power?

On the face of it it doesn\'t but a large part of fridge load is opening
the door and allowing cold air to exit and warm air to enter. The more
solids in the fridge the less air is exchanged on each access.

The must be a minor effect from internal convection when full of fluid
not solids. My instinct says it is orders of magnitude less that the
door opening effect.

The other big power user is putting things in hot.

You can break the ise at parties with this information if you are stuck
in the kitchen. I have instrumented my fridge: internal temperature
top, middle, bottom, external temp, motor temp, power and duty cycle.
In addition to noting the above effects on temp/power I can confirm the
top is a few degrees warmer than the bottom.

 

[Don Y]

On 2/16/2023 9:46 AM, Don Y wrote:

[At the other end (fully lit), places like the kitchen and
bathrooms are overly bright (the kitchen has a 75W equivalent
light for every 10 sq ft of floor space -- plus \"task lighting\"

No, that can\'t be right. I\'m probably using the floor (tile)
area and not the room dimensions (counters, appliances, etc.).
So, maybe every *20* sq ft?

[Kitchen has a problem with lots of glare from large picture
window into the yard so interior lighting has to compete
and has lots of dark features -- counters, appliances -- that
make it feel less well lit than it really is]

Guest bathroom, though, probably approaches hat 10 sq ft figure!

on the counters.  The (small) back yard is lit with six 300W
Halogens -- I\'ve not found suitable LED fixtures to replace them]

 

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 2/16/2023 2:04 PM, Mark Lloyd wrote:

On 2/16/23 10:07, Commander Kinsey wrote:

[snip]

You have enough money because you haven\'t spent half of it on
insurance premiums.  Remember folks, insurance companies make a
profit.  Keep that profit to yourselves.

Recently, we have been getting a lot of ads for utility line insurance.
Same thing, pay for repairs you may not need and pay more.

I get one for electric or water lines every couple of weeks. Sure, it
can happen but I\'ve been a homeowner for 56 years and never had an issue
that would be covered. This house is 4 years old so I\'m not concerned.
Better that money in my pocket. .

 

[Don Y]

On 2/19/2023 3:26 AM, James wrote:

On 15/02/2023 10:25, Don Y wrote:
No, I mean all the other things that use energy without giving you
any sort of feedback as to how much you are using or how quickly.

E.g., what rate am I consuming energy when I wash clothes?  (with
hot wash vs. cold, \"delicates\" cycle vs. heavy soil, etc.)  Or,
taking a shower (what temperature?  how long?) vs. bath.  Or,
watching TV.  etc.

How much power does the freezer use when it is \"lightly loaded\"?
What about when full (more thermal mass)?  How does that vary
with the ambient temperature (summer vs. winter)?

Use a plug-in wall meter for a single device.

So, instead of just *using* devices, you expect consumers to
quantify the costs of each. And, what do they do when they
don\'t like what they see, return it? Will you publish
a comprehensive catalog of every energy consuming device
with costs normalized so consumers can make informed choices?

[This happens, here, with \"major appliances\". But, has to assume
you are a \"typical user\". How much use am I supposed to make
of my oven? How many times am I expected to bake in it? How
many times to roast? etc. If model 1 has a reported annual
estimate of $X and model 2 has an estimate of $Y, how much
will the cost difference be worth, TO ME, given *my* usage
habits? Is it worth spending $Z more over a *possible*
appliance lifetime of Y years for an appliance that claims
to use a bit less energy AT TODAY\'S RATES?]

\"Smart meters\" have a display
(remote, you have it in the house) that shows the overall consumption rate.

Not in the US. Every home in our neighborhood has a
smart meter that reports consumption to the utility
(it costs ~$0.50 to read a meter -- though they charge
you $26/yr to have yours read, if you opt out of
having an \"automated meter\" installed). There are no
readily available documents describing what the
\"on meter\" (which is invariably outside) display
indicates, besides cumulative KWHr. \"Why are these
little squares blinking? Does a blink signify anything
that I might want to know? If so, what?\" (The optical port
allows the installer to program the displayed values;
there are no hooks for the user to do this)

[I designed a smart meter for a utility back in the 90\'s]

And, no guarantee that the meter on my house is the same
make/model as the one on my neighbor\'s.

These data are relayed to the supplier and can be viewed on their website as
histograms of 15 minute intervals, per day, month or year and compared to
historic readings.

Do you really think people would tolerate connecting to a
website to determine how much gasoline their car was using?
\"Why can\'t you just put some sort of indicator -- like a
GAUGE or something -- in the car? Like, maybe over here
on the dashboard where I can readily see it...\"

That\'s the point of NOT having an EASY way to determine what
EACH AND EVERY LOAD IN YOUR HOUSE is drawing. Your grandmother
can tell if she\'s been using more gasoline than normal, lately...
just by noticing how often the fuel gauge prods her into
refueling. What\'s going to tell her how much energy her
air conditioner is using, \"lately\"? Or, her furnace? TV?
Refrigerator? The sum of all the \"vampire\" loads (excluding
everything else in the house)?

Until loads report their usage and/or cost, people will not
be bothered -- beyond checking the sticker on that new appliance
AT THE TIME OF PURCHASE (replacement?) -- to concern themselves
with the costs of their current lifestyle choices.

(will light bulbs have little built-in displays?)

I can tell you how much power the equipment in my office
draws because each UPS uploads measurements to one of my
servers, every minute. But, as my usage is essentially
constant, what interest do I have in perusing them?

[\"Oh, my! I must have been rendering a 3D model at 1:43
on the 10th; that would explain the increased power consumed!\"]

Our utility bills (can\'t speak for the entire country) tell
us what our historical usage has been (last ~12 months) as
well as \"this time, last year\". I.e., I don\'t expect to use
anywhere near as much natural gas in July as I do in February.
But, if this February\'s usage is higher than last February,
is that a result of the current weather? Or, perhaps my
desire to keep the house warmer/colder than last year?

Assume I\'m motivated to change my behavior. How *much*
should I alter the temperature setting? Is it smarter
to adjust the setting on the water heater instead of the
furnace? Or, change the times of day that I rely on
warmer internal temperatures? Or, invest in better window
coverings? Or windows??

Is Joe Average (Joe Bloggs) going to be able to make informed
decisions regarding these things? Will he unnecessarily
inconvenience himself (reducing house temperature) for minimal
savings? Or, miss an opportunity to achieve greater savings
because he was unable to grok the consequences of a behavior?

 

[Dean Hoffman]

On Thursday, February 16, 2023 at 2:28:59 PM UTC-6, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 2/16/2023 2:04 PM, Mark Lloyd wrote:
On 2/16/23 10:07, Commander Kinsey wrote:

[snip]

You have enough money because you haven\'t spent half of it on
insurance premiums. Remember folks, insurance companies make a
profit. Keep that profit to yourselves.

Recently, we have been getting a lot of ads for utility line insurance.
Same thing, pay for repairs you may not need and pay more.

I get one for electric or water lines every couple of weeks. Sure, it
can happen but I\'ve been a homeowner for 56 years and never had an issue
that would be covered. This house is 4 years old so I\'m not concerned.
Better that money in my pocket. .

TV ads for car repair insurance seem pretty frequent now. Cars last so long
now it\'s hardly worthwhile if it ever was.

 

[Don Y]

On 2/19/2023 3:27 AM, James wrote:

On 15/02/2023 17:57, Don Y wrote:
The *cost* of energy is more than \"a fraction of a dollar, per day\".
My comment (above) was with regard to the *increase* in cost (from
\"rate hikes\") as being relatively modest.  Unlike the price of
petrol which can rise 25-30% in short order (and fall again, somewhat).

If the price of a commodity that you regularly consume rises 5-10%,
you gripe and basically get used to the new price, rather than
significantly
changing your consumption.  It\'s the *big*, sudden increases that folks
respond to.

We had a *3* *fold* *step* increase in the price of electricity and gas.  Yes,
*300%*, and the domestic rates are capped by the government; businesses pay more.

This is why we in UK and probably the rest of Europe are concerned and suddenly
looking for new ways of behaving.

And YOUR experience should dictate how *I* live my life?

 

[James]

On 19/02/2023 11:04, Don Y wrote:

How much power does the freezer use when it is \"lightly loaded\"?
What about when full (more thermal mass)? How does that vary
with the ambient temperature (summer vs. winter)?

Use a plug-in wall meter for a single device.

So, instead of just *using* devices, you expect consumers to
quantify the costs of each.

Yes, if they don\'t want $10,000 bill.

And, what do they do when they
don\'t like what they see, return it?

Yes or not switch it on.

Will you publish
a comprehensive catalog of every energy consuming device
with costs normalized so consumers can make informed choices?

The manufactures do on many items. Ovens included.

\"Smart meters\" have a display (remote, you have it in the house) that
shows the overall consumption rate.

Not in the US. Every home in our neighborhood has a
smart meter that reports consumption to the utility
(it costs ~$0.50 to read a meter -- though they charge
you $26/yr to have yours read, if you opt out of
having an \"automated meter\" installed). There are no
readily available documents describing what the
\"on meter\" (which is invariably outside) display
indicates, besides cumulative KWHr. \"Why are these
little squares blinking? Does a blink signify anything
that I might want to know? If so, what?\" (The optical port
allows the installer to program the displayed values;
there are no hooks for the user to do this)

[I designed a smart meter for a utility back in the 90\'s]

And, no guarantee that the meter on my house is the same
make/model as the one on my neighbor\'s.

Perhaps the people designing them should have done a better job.

Do you really think people would tolerate connecting to a
website to determine how much gasoline their car was using?
\"Why can\'t you just put some sort of indicator -- like a
GAUGE or something -- in the car? Like, maybe over here
on the dashboard where I can readily see it...\"

No need, I have an OBD2 diagnostics meter.


....

Is Joe Average (Joe Bloggs) going to be able to make informed
decisions regarding these things? Will he unnecessarily
inconvenience himself (reducing house temperature) for minimal
savings? Or, miss an opportunity to achieve greater savings
because he was unable to grok the consequences of a behavior?

....indeed, the world relies on the manufactures and legislation.

 

[James]

On 19/02/2023 11:05, Don Y wrote:

On 2/19/2023 3:27 AM, James wrote:
On 15/02/2023 17:57, Don Y wrote:
The *cost* of energy is more than \"a fraction of a dollar, per day\".
My comment (above) was with regard to the *increase* in cost (from
\"rate hikes\") as being relatively modest. Unlike the price of
petrol which can rise 25-30% in short order (and fall again, somewhat).

If the price of a commodity that you regularly consume rises 5-10%,
you gripe and basically get used to the new price, rather than
significantly
changing your consumption. It\'s the *big*, sudden increases that folks
respond to.

We had a *3* *fold* *step* increase in the price of electricity and
gas. Yes, *300%*, and the domestic rates are capped by the
government; businesses pay more.

This is why we in UK and probably the rest of Europe are concerned and
suddenly looking for new ways of behaving.

And YOUR experience should dictate how *I* live my life?

No but your answers here should understand the problems others are
facing. Quote: \'My comment (above) was with regard to the *increase* in
cost (from \"rate hikes\") as being relatively modest.\' They are not.

 

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 18/02/2023 18:59, Mark Lloyd wrote:

On 2/17/23 16:21, Carlos E.R. wrote:

[snip]

It is now a legal and recognised sign to following drivers, on a fast
road, such as a motorway or dual-carriageway, that you are
approaching standing traffic and slowing quickly to a stop. As such
it needs to be activated quickly and without having to take your eyes
off the road.

I think that the legal way to do it here is touch the brake lightly
several times to make the red lights blink.

\"touch the brake lightly\" when you need to do it hard?

When the deer jumps out of the hedge in front of you and stays
mesmerised and stationary in the headlights?

--
“The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false face for the
urge to rule it.”
– H. L. Mencken

 

[rbowman]

On Tue, 21 Feb 2023 09:34:55 -0000, NY wrote:

I imagine different people are affected differently by the same voltage
of shock. I used to know a woman at university who could feel voltages
of a few volts through her fingers - she could touch the terminals of an
AA battery (eg between finger and thumb) and tell whether it was dead.
She described 9 V from a PP9 battery as \"uncomfortable\".

9V batteries are a bit uncomfortable if you place your tongue across the
contacts but you can quickly tell the good from the ones that are fading
fast.

I never tried it with the 1.5V cells, not having a tongue like an
anteater.

 

[micky]

In alt.home.repair, on Thu, 16 Feb 2023 15:26:25 GMT,
scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:

micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> writes:
In alt.home.repair, on Thu, 16 Feb 2023 13:30:34 +0100, \"Carlos E.R.\"
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2023-02-16 05:45, micky wrote:
In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 15 Feb 2023 23:32:44 +0100, \"Carlos E.R.\"
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:


I think all houses have circuit breakers, but that doesn\'t mean they
have a fully compliant installation.

I don\'t think they\'ve ever ordered that here. Althought some people
remodel and upgrade on their own. A friend bought a 100-year old
farmhouse about 10 years ago and it still had knob and tube wiring. I

Not everything in the house. It was all over the attic, and in truth,
I\'m not positive it was still connected. I should ask my friend about
that too.

think it was connected and in use.

A lot of insurance companies will exclude electric-caused issues
from the policy if the home has knob and tube here in the states.

Ah. A lof of safety enforcement is done by insurance companies that is
not covered by government regulation. Is that true in Spain and Europe
too?