Toshiba TV29C90 problem; Image fades to black...

[SMS]

Franc Zabkar wrote:

Ah, so the Motorola mini-USB cable has 5 pins at both ends?

No. The Motorola charger uses a five pin mini-USB connector, the charger
is on the other end, and inside the charger there are connections
between the signals that the phone detects to determine that it's a
Motorola charger.

The five pin mini-USB to 4 pin USB A cable used to plug the phone into a
PC will only charge the phone when the Motorola Phone Tools software is
present.

If you use a power-only USB cable (no signal lines, just power and
ground) which do exist, then the phone won't charge from a USB port
because the phone will know that it's not plugged into a Motorola charger.

Similarly if you use a cable with all the signal lines, but plug it into
a power-only USB supply (12VDC to 5VDC USB cigarette lighter adapter,
110VAC to 5VDC USB adapter, or the USB power port on many 12VDC to
110VAC inverters) it won't charge the phone because the phone will know
it's not plugged into a Motorola charger. You could build a special
cable that simulates what's present inside the charger to get around
this, or you could modify the phone to get around this (people have done
both).

 

[John Navas]

On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 16:32:21 -0800, SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
wrote in <GNz5l.11599$c45.1120@nlpi065.nbdc.sbc.com>:

Franc Zabkar wrote:

Ah, so the Motorola mini-USB cable has 5 pins at both ends?

No. The Motorola charger uses a five pin mini-USB connector, the charger
is on the other end, and inside the charger there are connections
between the signals that the phone detects to determine that it's a
Motorola charger.

The five pin mini-USB to 4 pin USB A cable used to plug the phone into a
PC will only charge the phone when the Motorola Phone Tools software is
present.

If you use a power-only USB cable (no signal lines, just power and
ground) which do exist, then the phone won't charge from a USB port
because the phone will know that it's not plugged into a Motorola charger.

Similarly if you use a cable with all the signal lines, but plug it into
a power-only USB supply (12VDC to 5VDC USB cigarette lighter adapter,
110VAC to 5VDC USB adapter, or the USB power port on many 12VDC to
110VAC inverters) it won't charge the phone because the phone will know
it's not plugged into a Motorola charger. You could build a special
cable that simulates what's present inside the charger to get around
this, or you could modify the phone to get around this (people have done
both).

Or you could simply ignore this nonsense.

--
Very best wishes for the holiday season and for the coming new year,
John

 

[Franc Zabkar]

On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 16:32:21 -0800, SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
put finger to keyboard and composed:

Franc Zabkar wrote:

Ah, so the Motorola mini-USB cable has 5 pins at both ends?

No. The Motorola charger uses a five pin mini-USB connector, ...

Don't you mean that "the Motorola *phone* uses a five pin mini-USB
connector"?

... the charger is on the other end, and inside the charger there are connections
between the signals that the phone detects to determine that it's a
Motorola charger.

Ah, so the cable is not completely detachable, ie the charger end is
hard wired? I got the impression from other posters that the cable was
replaceable.

The five pin mini-USB to 4 pin USB A cable used to plug the phone into a
PC will only charge the phone when the Motorola Phone Tools software is
present.

If you use a power-only USB cable (no signal lines, just power and
ground) which do exist, then the phone won't charge from a USB port
because the phone will know that it's not plugged into a Motorola charger.

Similarly if you use a cable with all the signal lines, but plug it into
a power-only USB supply (12VDC to 5VDC USB cigarette lighter adapter,
110VAC to 5VDC USB adapter, or the USB power port on many 12VDC to
110VAC inverters) it won't charge the phone because the phone will know
it's not plugged into a Motorola charger. You could build a special
cable that simulates what's present inside the charger to get around
this, or you could modify the phone to get around this (people have done
both).

Yes, it appears so. It seems to me that, if the 5th pin were either
grounded or floating as John Navas says, then the observations
recorded by the people at pinouts.ru would not hold up. Obviously the
ID pin cannot be grounded, as the USB OTG spec would then compel the
phone to be a power giver, not a power receiver. So the ID pin must be
floating, if it follows the USB standard. But if this pin were
floating, then the voltage would not change when the charger is
attached. Furthermore, there would be no need for a fifth conductor
along the length of the cable. A DMM would confirm its absence, if JN
were correct. Similarly, when testing for resistance between the 5th
pin and ground, we would not expect to measure 200K ohms as others
appear to have done.

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

 

[Pat Cheney]

On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 14:50:21 -0800, SMS wrote:

2. I learned why my Motorola cables work with Blackberry but not vice versa
(e.g., the Motorla cable follows the standard; Blackberry does not)

Wrong, it's the opposite. Motorola doesn't follow the standard.

OK. I admit. I'm confused. That's what I originally thought.

All I know for sure is that my entire box of mini-usb cables & wall
chargers work on the Blackberry, but only the Motorola mini-usb cables and
wall chargers work on the Motorola RAZR cellphone.

I think my Nuvi charger also works on the Blackberry but not on the
Motorola RAZR (we can ask the GPS guys if they know more about the pinout).

So, I'm confused which is the 4-pin and which is the 5-pin
standard.http://pinouts.ru/CellularPhones-A-N/razrv3_charger_pinout.shtml

Motorola: 5pin?
Blackberry: 4pin?
Nuvi: 4pin?

Which of these three is using the "correct" usb-standard pinout?

 

[SMS]

Pat Cheney wrote:

On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 14:50:21 -0800, SMS wrote:

2. I learned why my Motorola cables work with Blackberry but not vice versa
(e.g., the Motorla cable follows the standard; Blackberry does not)
Wrong, it's the opposite. Motorola doesn't follow the standard.

OK. I admit. I'm confused. That's what I originally thought.

All I know for sure is that my entire box of mini-usb cables & wall
chargers work on the Blackberry, but only the Motorola mini-usb cables and
wall chargers work on the Motorola RAZR cellphone.

Right, because Motorola phones won't charge if you just connect +5V and
GND from the USB port.

Actually, it's technically not true to say that Motorola doesn't follow
the USB standard. USB was not designed as a way to charge portable
devices, and Motorola is free to do whatever they want, but most devices
with USB jacks for charging and/or data are able to charge with just +5V
and GND being supplied.

 

[Marco Tedaldi]

Pat Cheney schrieb:

Motorola: 5pin?
Blackberry: 4pin?
Nuvi: 4pin?

Which of these three is using the "correct" usb-standard pinout?

I think both of them are ok... Thats the nice things about standards.
There are so many, you can choose whichever you want ;-)

And as far as I can see only the motorola phone is behaeving correctly,
and all the other equipment is breaking the USB-Standard.

A USB port must be able to supply a current of up to 1A. But it is also
true that You can connect several devices to one singe usb port (over a
passive usb hub).

So a device has to draw at most 100mA (or 150mA) at the beginning of a
connection. It has than to request more power from the host, which is
keeping a list of connected devices and power consumption. Only if the
port would not get overloaded, the host (in most cases a PC or laptop)
will acknowledge the request. Otherwise the request is declined and the
device is not allowed to draw more than the 100mA.

So A device that just draws full current without communicating with the
host is breaking the rules.

For USB-Loaders there is an exception. The specification says that a
simple loader should short the two data lines. Than the device is
allowed to draw full current (depending on specification 1A, 1.5A or 1.8A).

So it seems the motorola device is behaeving correctly, while the other
devices do it wrong. Attaching more than one such device which draws too
much current to a USB Port might damage your Mainboard.

That's also the reason why these dual connectors which are sometimes
used with external hard drives are out of specification (and useless in
many cases anyway).

kruemi


--
Dimage A2, Agfa isolette
http://flickr.com/photos/kruemi
And a cool timekiller: http://www.starpirates.net/register.php?referer=9708

 

[Marco Tedaldi]

Franc Zabkar schrieb:

Does the USB standard specify how a charger is to behave? What does it
have to say about the fact that Motorola chargers short the Data+ and
Data- pins (according to pinouts.ru)?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usb#Power tells, that this is the "Battery

Charging Specification". This way no electronics is needed in a simple
Charger.
The wikipedia article (especially the power section" is a highly
recommended read for all the people discussing here since it covers most
of the topics discussed.

Does the required "standard" cable, when connected to a charger, need
to have 5 pins at both ends?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usb#Types_of_USB_connector should have the

answer. And to be honest. I've just now read it...

kruemi

--
Dimage A2, Agfa isolette
http://flickr.com/photos/kruemi
And a cool timekiller: http://www.starpirates.net/register.php?referer=9708

 

[nospam]

In article <gj7ead$vts$1@reader.motzarella.org>, Marco Tedaldi
<news0708.kruemi@spamgourmet.com> wrote:

A USB port must be able to supply a current of up to 1A.

no, it's 500 ma per port.

 

[Sjouke Burry]

Marco Tedaldi wrote:

Pat Cheney schrieb:
Motorola: 5pin?
Blackberry: 4pin?
Nuvi: 4pin?

Which of these three is using the "correct" usb-standard pinout?

I think both of them are ok... Thats the nice things about standards.
There are so many, you can choose whichever you want ;-)

And as far as I can see only the motorola phone is behaeving correctly,
and all the other equipment is breaking the USB-Standard.

A USB port must be able to supply a current of up to 1A. But it is also
true that You can connect several devices to one singe usb port (over a
passive usb hub).

So a device has to draw at most 100mA (or 150mA) at the beginning of a
connection. It has than to request more power from the host, which is
keeping a list of connected devices and power consumption. Only if the
port would not get overloaded, the host (in most cases a PC or laptop)
will acknowledge the request. Otherwise the request is declined and the
device is not allowed to draw more than the 100mA.

So A device that just draws full current without communicating with the
host is breaking the rules.

For USB-Loaders there is an exception. The specification says that a
simple loader should short the two data lines. Than the device is
allowed to draw full current (depending on specification 1A, 1.5A or 1.8A).

So it seems the motorola device is behaeving correctly, while the other
devices do it wrong. Attaching more than one such device which draws too
much current to a USB Port might damage your Mainboard.

That's also the reason why these dual connectors which are sometimes
used with external hard drives are out of specification (and useless in
many cases anyway).

kruemi


And does that explain why you need 5 wires??

My reading skills must be impaired...

 

[John Navas]

On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 09:46:47 +0100, Marco Tedaldi
<news0708.kruemi@spamgourmet.com> wrote in
<gj7ead$vts$1@reader.motzarella.org>:

And as far as I can see only the motorola phone is behaeving correctly,
and all the other equipment is breaking the USB-Standard.
....
So it seems the motorola device is behaeving correctly, while the other
devices do it wrong. Attaching more than one such device which draws too
much current to a USB Port might damage your Mainboard.

True. But off topic. Usenet is reserved for uninformed speculation and
ranting, not facts. Please be more careful in the future.

--
Very best wishes for the holiday season and for the coming new year,
John

 

[John Navas]

On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 15:45:07 +0100, Sjouke Burry
<burrynulnulfour@ppllaanneett.nnll> wrote in
<495790f2$0$30613$ba620dc5@text.nova.planet.nl>:

And does that explain why you need 5 wires??

The 5th connection is device ID. See the USB specs.

My reading skills must be impaired...

[shrug]

--
Very best wishes for the holiday season and for the coming new year,
John

 

[Franc Zabkar]

On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 09:46:47 +0100, Marco Tedaldi
<news0708.kruemi@spamgourmet.com> put finger to keyboard and composed:

Pat Cheney schrieb:

Motorola: 5pin?
Blackberry: 4pin?
Nuvi: 4pin?

Which of these three is using the "correct" usb-standard pinout?

I think both of them are ok... Thats the nice things about standards.
There are so many, you can choose whichever you want ;-)

And as far as I can see only the motorola phone is behaeving correctly,
and all the other equipment is breaking the USB-Standard.

A USB port must be able to supply a current of up to 1A.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usb#Power

"A unit load is defined as 100mA in USB 2.0, and was raised to 150mA
in USB 3.0. A maximum of 5 unit loads can be drawn from a port in USB
2.0, and was raised to 6 in USB 3.0."

But it is also
true that You can connect several devices to one singe usb port (over a
passive usb hub).

So a device has to draw at most 100mA (or 150mA) at the beginning of a
connection. It has than to request more power from the host, which is
keeping a list of connected devices and power consumption. Only if the
port would not get overloaded, the host (in most cases a PC or laptop)
will acknowledge the request. Otherwise the request is declined and the
device is not allowed to draw more than the 100mA.

So A device that just draws full current without communicating with the
host is breaking the rules.

For USB-Loaders there is an exception. The specification says that a
simple loader should short the two data lines. Than the device is
allowed to draw full current (depending on specification 1A, 1.5A or 1.8A).

So it seems the motorola device is behaeving correctly, while the other
devices do it wrong.

I couldn't find anything in the abovementioned Wikipedia article that
discussed the 5th ID pin in relation to battery charging. AFAICS, this
pin should be floating at the phone end, not terminated with a
resistor to ground. Does the "Battery Charging Specification" redefine
the function of this pin, or is Motorola's implementation
non-standard?

Attaching more than one such device which draws too
much current to a USB Port might damage your Mainboard.

That's also the reason why these dual connectors which are sometimes
used with external hard drives are out of specification (and useless in
many cases anyway).

kruemi

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

 

[Franc Zabkar]

On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 09:22:28 +1100, Franc Zabkar
<fzabkar@iinternode.on.net> put finger to keyboard and composed:

I couldn't find anything in the abovementioned Wikipedia article that
discussed the 5th ID pin in relation to battery charging. AFAICS, this
pin should be floating at the phone end, not terminated with a
resistor to ground. Does the "Battery Charging Specification" redefine
the function of this pin, or is Motorola's implementation
non-standard?

This is the "Battery Charging Specification":
http://www.usb.org/developers/devclass_docs/batt_charging_1_0.zip

Fig 3-2 on page 13 shows a Dedicated Charger. The D+ and D- pins are
connected via a resistor, Rdchgr_dat, which has a maximum value of 200
ohms.

The ID pin is left floating at both ends.

Section 3.10 on page 16 defines a "Resistive Detection Mechanism"
whereby a portable device can differentiate between a dedicated
charger and a hub or host charger by looking for pullup and pull-down
resistors on D+ and D-.

In all cases the ID pin is floating.

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

 

[Franc Zabkar]

On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 08:18:55 -0800, John Navas
<spamfilter1@navasgroup.com> put finger to keyboard and composed:

On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 09:46:47 +0100, Marco Tedaldi
news0708.kruemi@spamgourmet.com> wrote in
gj7ead$vts$1@reader.motzarella.org>:

And as far as I can see only the motorola phone is behaeving correctly,
and all the other equipment is breaking the USB-Standard.
...
So it seems the motorola device is behaeving correctly, while the other
devices do it wrong. Attaching more than one such device which draws too
much current to a USB Port might damage your Mainboard.

True. But off topic. Usenet is reserved for uninformed speculation and
ranting, not facts. Please be more careful in the future.

Here are the facts:

USB "Battery Charging Specification":
http://www.usb.org/developers/devclass_docs/batt_charging_1_0.zip

A USB charger does not require any smart electronics, only a shorting
wire (R < 200 ohms) between the D+ and D- pins. The 5th ID pin must
remain unconnected.

This means that one really only needs 4 wires, so any implementation
that uses a 4-pin connector would be compliant from an electrical
point of view.

If we assume that a Blackberry charger is wired as per the above
standard, then it should be able charge any compliant phone, camera,
etc. However, it won't charge a Motorola phone because the latter
expects to see a particular non-standard voltage on the ID pin.

OTOH, a non-standard Motorola charger which places 1 volt on the ID
pin will not upset a compliant USB device (eg a Blackberry ?) because
such a device expects this pin to be either grounded or not grounded.
The device doesn't care whether the "not grounded" state is at 1V or
2V or whatever, it only cares that it is not 0V.

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

 

[John Navas]

On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 06:08:57 +1100, Franc Zabkar
<fzabkar@iinternode.on.net> wrote in
<h57il4hio32q48s9kphcpenk4mj9f4f5vn@4ax.com>:

On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 08:18:55 -0800, John Navas
spamfilter1@navasgroup.com> put finger to keyboard and composed:

True. But off topic. Usenet is reserved for uninformed speculation and
ranting, not facts. Please be more careful in the future.

Here are the facts:

USB "Battery Charging Specification":
http://www.usb.org/developers/devclass_docs/batt_charging_1_0.zip

A USB charger does not require any smart electronics, only a shorting
wire (R < 200 ohms) between the D+ and D- pins. The 5th ID pin must
remain unconnected.

This means that one really only needs 4 wires, so any implementation
that uses a 4-pin connector would be compliant from an electrical
point of view.

If we assume that a Blackberry charger is wired as per the above
standard, then it should be able charge any compliant phone, camera,
etc.

Sorry, but that's your leap of faith, not what the spec says.

However, it won't charge a Motorola phone because the latter
expects to see a particular non-standard voltage on the ID pin.

It's standard, and not a voltage.

OTOH, a non-standard Motorola charger which places 1 volt on the ID
pin will not upset a compliant USB device (eg a Blackberry ?) because
such a device expects this pin to be either grounded or not grounded.
The device doesn't care whether the "not grounded" state is at 1V or
2V or whatever, it only cares that it is not 0V.

Those are your contentions, not what the spec says.

--
Very best wishes for the holiday season and for the coming new year,
John

 

[Franc Zabkar]

On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 11:41:18 -0800, John Navas
<spamfilter1@navasgroup.com> put finger to keyboard and composed:

On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 06:08:57 +1100, Franc Zabkar
fzabkar@iinternode.on.net> wrote in
h57il4hio32q48s9kphcpenk4mj9f4f5vn@4ax.com>:

On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 08:18:55 -0800, John Navas
spamfilter1@navasgroup.com> put finger to keyboard and composed:

True. But off topic. Usenet is reserved for uninformed speculation and
ranting, not facts. Please be more careful in the future.

Here are the facts:

USB "Battery Charging Specification":
http://www.usb.org/developers/devclass_docs/batt_charging_1_0.zip

A USB charger does not require any smart electronics, only a shorting
wire (R < 200 ohms) between the D+ and D- pins. The 5th ID pin must
remain unconnected.

This means that one really only needs 4 wires, so any implementation
that uses a 4-pin connector would be compliant from an electrical
point of view.

If we assume that a Blackberry charger is wired as per the above
standard, then it should be able charge any compliant phone, camera,
etc.

Sorry, but that's your leap of faith, not what the spec says.

Please explain, with references to the actual text.

However, it won't charge a Motorola phone because the latter
expects to see a particular non-standard voltage on the ID pin.

It's standard, and not a voltage.

The people at pinouts.ru have *measured* it. What have *you* done?

OTOH, a non-standard Motorola charger which places 1 volt on the ID
pin will not upset a compliant USB device (eg a Blackberry ?) because
such a device expects this pin to be either grounded or not grounded.
The device doesn't care whether the "not grounded" state is at 1V or
2V or whatever, it only cares that it is not 0V.

Those are your contentions, not what the spec says.

What *does* the spec say?

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

 

[John Navas]

On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 07:47:27 +1100, Franc Zabkar
<fzabkar@iinternode.on.net> wrote in
<sndil41vf6uebeqnv3rnck436mmdvp6gj7@4ax.com>:

On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 11:41:18 -0800, John Navas
spamfilter1@navasgroup.com> put finger to keyboard and composed:

Sorry, but that's your leap of faith, not what the spec says.

Please explain, with references to the actual text.

No thanks, Franc, I've long since learned that arguing with you is a
total waste of time.

--
Very best wishes for the holiday season and for the coming new year,
John

 

[Franc Zabkar]

On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 12:54:22 -0800, John Navas
<spamfilter1@navasgroup.com> put finger to keyboard and composed:

On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 07:47:27 +1100, Franc Zabkar
fzabkar@iinternode.on.net> wrote in
sndil41vf6uebeqnv3rnck436mmdvp6gj7@4ax.com>:

On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 11:41:18 -0800, John Navas
spamfilter1@navasgroup.com> put finger to keyboard and composed:

Sorry, but that's your leap of faith, not what the spec says.

Please explain, with references to the actual text.

No thanks, Franc, I've long since learned that arguing with you is a
total waste of time.

Ah, it's the same old John Navas. When you having nothing to say, say
it as convincingly as possible. If you say it often enough, at least
*some* people will believe you. There is no need for actual references
when an ad hominem slur will do.

Unlike you, John, I don't promote myself as the fount of all
knowledge. I accept that I am ignorant and fallible. And unlike you, I
would never dream of trying to pass myself of as a consultant. As a
consultant I could not afford to be seen to be wrong, as this would
damage my commercial standing.

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

 

[John Navas]

On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 08:21:49 +1100, Franc Zabkar
<fzabkar@iinternode.on.net> wrote in
<r7fil4p2afcuic3faii7k2499o619hlc40@4ax.com>:

On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 12:54:22 -0800, John Navas
spamfilter1@navasgroup.com> put finger to keyboard and composed:

On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 07:47:27 +1100, Franc Zabkar
fzabkar@iinternode.on.net> wrote in
sndil41vf6uebeqnv3rnck436mmdvp6gj7@4ax.com>:

On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 11:41:18 -0800, John Navas
spamfilter1@navasgroup.com> put finger to keyboard and composed:

Sorry, but that's your leap of faith, not what the spec says.

Please explain, with references to the actual text.

No thanks, Franc, I've long since learned that arguing with you is a
total waste of time.

Ah, it's the same old John Navas. [childish goading deleted]

And the same old Franc, ranting the same old childish goading.

Such is life.

--
Very best wishes for the holiday season and for the coming new year,
John

 

[Franc Zabkar]

On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 13:50:03 -0800, John Navas
<spamfilter1@navasgroup.com> put finger to keyboard and composed:

On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 08:21:49 +1100, Franc Zabkar
fzabkar@iinternode.on.net> wrote in
r7fil4p2afcuic3faii7k2499o619hlc40@4ax.com>:

On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 12:54:22 -0800, John Navas
spamfilter1@navasgroup.com> put finger to keyboard and composed:

On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 07:47:27 +1100, Franc Zabkar
fzabkar@iinternode.on.net> wrote in
sndil41vf6uebeqnv3rnck436mmdvp6gj7@4ax.com>:

On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 11:41:18 -0800, John Navas
spamfilter1@navasgroup.com> put finger to keyboard and composed:

Sorry, but that's your leap of faith, not what the spec says.

Please explain, with references to the actual text.

No thanks, Franc, I've long since learned that arguing with you is a
total waste of time.

Ah, it's the same old John Navas. [childish goading deleted]

And the same old Franc, ranting the same old childish goading.

Such is life.

I see no evidence that you're anything other than a deskbound
specification junkie suffering from delusions of grandeur.

Here at sci.electronics.repair there are real technicians who
understand which end of a soldering iron is hot. We also understand
integrated circuits, ie those square and rectangular plastic thingies
with lots of shiny pins.

If you can refute the work of the people at pinouts.ru, people who
presumably are technicians themselves, then here is your golden
opportunity to do so. What resistance or voltage do *you* measure on
the ID pin of a Motorola RAZR charger?

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.