Stalled EV...

[Dean Hoffman]

On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 1:59:44 AM UTC-5, Ricky wrote:

On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 1:10:31 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 4/27/2023 7:07 PM, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
On Thursday, 27 April 2023 at 08:15:43 UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
...

A neighbor sold her EV as she wasn\'t prepared to spend a week
driving it across the country (instead of 2-3 days).
...

She could have done it in less than 2 days.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a38095522/ev-cannonball-record-tesla-model-s/
*Any* ICE can do it in less than two days.
Not when they don\'t sell gasoline anymore. I never realized you were like this, can\'t see the forest for the trees.

--

Rick C.

++- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

I keep seeing articles discussing the material needed to make the batteries for EVs. China comes up repeatedly as the source. The U.S. is going to let its potential long term enemy control transportation?
A superpower like the U.S. should be energy independent. This looks like a long term surrender.

 

[Ed Lee]

On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 4:46:20 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:

On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 7:25:41 AM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
On Thursday, April 27, 2023 at 11:59:44 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 1:10:31 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 4/27/2023 7:07 PM, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
On Thursday, 27 April 2023 at 08:15:43 UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
...

A neighbor sold her EV as she wasn\'t prepared to spend a week
driving it across the country (instead of 2-3 days).
...

She could have done it in less than 2 days.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a38095522/ev-cannonball-record-tesla-model-s/
*Any* ICE can do it in less than two days.
Not when they don\'t sell gasoline anymore. I never realized you were like this, can\'t see the forest for the trees.
That will be the day, fat chance. EVers will need gasoline for emergency. Perhaps we can buy gasoline from McDonald.

By the way, celebrating the pathetic charging network, approaching one year of the rest stop shutdown between Tulare and Delano, I am making a 20 miles detour through Porterville to get some electricity.
Emergency? What good is gasoline for an EV? Oh, you still want to be your own utility and make electricity. Ok, they will run a refinery and pipeline, just for you.

Emergency for portable generators and batteries. I have removable modules, sometimes more batteries, and sometimes more generators.
I want smaller and lighter generators, perhaps in segments of 100V DC.

> The problem is as the market diminishes, the economy of scale goes away. Gasoline will still be sold, but not from gas stations as fuel for vehicles.. When the demand is down to 1% of what it is today, gasoline with be sold in 1 gallon cans at the hardware store like paint thinner. Or maybe not.

I see McDonald selling cups of gasoline more than hardware stores. I don\'t see hardware stores in remote travel stops.

There really are not many uses for gasoline. It is a rather impure product, if you aren\'t burning it. Even in lanterns, they used \"white\" gas, which was a more refined product, to prevent spoiling of the wick.

When there is no longer a sustained market for a product, it goes away. You will need to use diesel for your generator, and that will be harder to come by as well.

Diesel and/or ethanol would be fine. I can build generators that run on ethanol.

> I realize that anyone who buys a golf cart and tries to use it for long trips, is not going to understand much of what I explain, but that doesn\'t change the facts of ever decreasing demand for gasoline, and the evaporation of the support network for gas powered vehicles. By 2040, it will become prohibitively expensive and inconvenient to try to use any gasoline powered vehicles, including BEVs that are charged from personal generators.

We might be dead by 2040; so, work out a solution now.

> I\'m surprised that we aren\'t starting to see an impact on gas prices by now. I think BEV ownership is around 5% in the US. The distance driven dropped around 10% during the recession in 2008 and gas prices dropped hugely. Give it another couple of years and BEV ownership will reach 10%, which will make an impact on the price of gas. But by the time BEVs are 50% of the cars on the roads, parts of the distribution network will shut down and prices will start to go up again. I expect by 2040, gas will be working up to $10 a gallon. By 2045, there won\'t be gas stations anymore. People just can\'t grasp the idea. It\'s like saying TVs will go away, because we\'ve always known them. But gas cars are dinosaurs, and the asteroid has hit. It will only take a bit of time for them to become extinct.

I see BEV peaking at 20% to 30%. ICE will never disappear. I am a realist, you are an idealist.

 

[Ed Lee]

On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 4:25:41 AM UTC-7, Ed Lee wrote:

On Thursday, April 27, 2023 at 11:59:44 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 1:10:31 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 4/27/2023 7:07 PM, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
On Thursday, 27 April 2023 at 08:15:43 UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
...

A neighbor sold her EV as she wasn\'t prepared to spend a week
driving it across the country (instead of 2-3 days).
...

She could have done it in less than 2 days.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a38095522/ev-cannonball-record-tesla-model-s/
*Any* ICE can do it in less than two days.
Not when they don\'t sell gasoline anymore. I never realized you were like this, can\'t see the forest for the trees.
That will be the day, fat chance. EVers will need gasoline for emergency. Perhaps we can buy gasoline from McDonald.

By the way, celebrating the pathetic charging network, approaching one year of the rest stop shutdown between Tulare and Delano, I am making a 20 miles detour through Porterville to get some electricity.

CalTran pre-released Vapor Chargers too early, give or take a few years. People reported that the chargers are accessable (ignoring the barriers) but not enabled. They might be upgrading the power lines. CalTran gave us this fast charging short cut 2 year ago, then they took it back 1 year ago. Now i have to wait at a slow charger 20 miles east to rant about it.

 

[ke...@kjwdesigns.com]

On Thursday, 27 April 2023 at 23:58:22 UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
....

In tabular form it indicates how much energy was consumed by the various services such as propulsion, climate control. auxiliaries etc with a comparison to the estimation.
It does? Where does it show this info? I\'ve never seen that. It has an \"Energy\" display, where it shows projected charge levels over the course of the trip, along with the actual battery charge level. But, I\'ve never seen anything about where the energy is going.

Maybe it is not available on the Model S/X yet. It has been on the Model3/Y for 6 months or so.

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/new-energy-app.280829/

kw

 

[Don Y]

On 4/28/2023 6:11 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:

I keep seeing articles discussing the material needed to make the batteries
for EVs. China comes up repeatedly as the source. The U.S. is going to
let its potential long term enemy control transportation? A superpower like
the U.S. should be energy independent. This looks like a long term
surrender.

Batteries are a transitional technology. And, likely only used in
a segment of the energy market. Battery-only vehicles will be
fewer as hybrids become more practical alternatives. And, there
will likely be alternate fuels as well as alternate modes of
transportation -- as well as different societal structures
(smaller \"communities\", less sprawl). You just can\'t economically
get big enough batteries to replace all (transportation) energy
needs.

What do you tell a billion upwardly mobile chinamen -- or indians -- who
think THEY are entitled to transportation, too? \"Sorry, these are
just for OUR use...\"

[And, the cost of replacing batteries will be an eye-opener to
many -- esp when subsidies fade or folks discover their used
electric vehicle isn\'t worth much when a buyer contemplates battery
replacement costs. How often have you been asked to replace
the *engine* in your ICE?]

Vehicles will be burning petroleum products through most of the
21st century -- even if SALES of those vehicles are outright banned
at some date decade(s) hence. (who\'s going to compensate the
purchaser of a petroleum burning vehicle for his purchase before
that hypothetical date? who\'s going to compensate the petroleum
industry for their lost markets?)

They still sell cigarettes! :>

Recall diesel coming into prominence in the 70\'s? Yet, gasoline
has still been available continuously. We see vehicles running
on propane, diesel, gasoline, electric, etc. Hydrogen will take
a portion of the market, even if only to demonstrate it\'s viability.

No one is going to put all their eggs in one basket. Russia\'s energy
ransom with Europe has made that pretty clear to most of the world,
even if the politicians may opt to believe otherwise.

[And, if you think the US engages in wars to \"spread democracy\"
(and not for the natural resources at stake), you need to
revisit your history with a different focus! :> ]

 

[Don Y]

On 4/28/2023 5:18 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:

That information would also be useful for gasoline cars. My country is hilly, I
would like to know the height profile of the proposed paths.

<frown> I have found this, recently, *somewhere*. Though I can\'t
recall what I may have been looking for at the time.

That reminds me, that the TomTom never tells me to take a tunnel or high pass.
Says keep left or right instead (\"take the tunnel\" would be way more useful).
It has no information of the height I am at.

Yeah, navigation systems leave a lot to be desired. \"Local knowledge\"
is often keenly missing. They all tell me to head out \"the back way\"
for many of my destinations. But, the back way is (permanently) gated
shut -- as anyone who lives here would know.

The nav system in the car at least lets me add artificial \"keep outs\"
to prevent it from proposing those routes.

OTOH, there are times it tells me I am driving over \"grass\" because
it isn\'t aware of a new road or bridge, etc.

There is a parking lot near me, where it proposes a path right through the wall
of the basement, because it thinks I am at ground level.

I find the routes that say \"go through the traffic light, make a U-turn,
return to the light and then make a LEFT turn\" to be the most puzzling
(this, in stead of just turning RIGHT when you first approach the
intersection???)

Or, those that are too literal and find a destination that matches
your literal name of location -- 1000 miles from your current
location! (wouldn\'t it be prudent to at least ask the user if that
was his intention??)

SWMBO\'s vehicle once told me my destination was \"400 ft ahead, on the
left\" (it was as I could see it!) AND *8* miles away.

One would think folks with deep pockets would invest in better
software development/test practices!

 

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 11:37:00 PM UTC+10, Ed Lee wrote:

On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 4:46:20 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 7:25:41 AM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
On Thursday, April 27, 2023 at 11:59:44 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 1:10:31 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 4/27/2023 7:07 PM, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
On Thursday, 27 April 2023 at 08:15:43 UTC-7, Don Y wrote:

<snip>

> I see BEV peaking at 20% to 30%. ICE will never disappear. I am a realist, you are an idealist.

You like to think that you are a realist, but you don\'t think well enough to make the cut.

We can\'t afford to have lot of people burning gasoline in cars, so EV\'s are going to end up with at least 99% of the market. but it is going to take a while to get there.

Norway has already got to 23.1% electric vehicles on its roads.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_electric_vehicles_in_Norway#/media/FileEVs_in_use_Top_countries_&_regional_markets_2020.png

About 75% of the car now being sold there are electric, so that number is going to keep on going up.

--
Bill Sloman. Sydney

 

[John Larkin]

On Fri, 28 Apr 2023 06:11:38 -0700 (PDT), Dean Hoffman
<deanh6929@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 1:59:44?AM UTC-5, Ricky wrote:
On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 1:10:31?AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 4/27/2023 7:07 PM, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
On Thursday, 27 April 2023 at 08:15:43 UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
...

A neighbor sold her EV as she wasn\'t prepared to spend a week
driving it across the country (instead of 2-3 days).
...

She could have done it in less than 2 days.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a38095522/ev-cannonball-record-tesla-model-s/
*Any* ICE can do it in less than two days.
Not when they don\'t sell gasoline anymore. I never realized you were like this, can\'t see the forest for the trees.

--

Rick C.

++- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

I keep seeing articles discussing the material needed to make the batteries for EVs. China comes up repeatedly as the source. The U.S. is going to let its potential long term enemy control transportation?
A superpower like the U.S. should be energy independent. This looks like a long term surrender.

It is, by design.

 

[Ed Lee]

On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 7:27:48 AM UTC-7, Anthony William Sloman wrote:

On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 11:37:00 PM UTC+10, Ed Lee wrote:
On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 4:46:20 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 7:25:41 AM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
On Thursday, April 27, 2023 at 11:59:44 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 1:10:31 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 4/27/2023 7:07 PM, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
On Thursday, 27 April 2023 at 08:15:43 UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
snip
I see BEV peaking at 20% to 30%. ICE will never disappear. I am a realist, you are an idealist.
You like to think that you are a realist, but you don\'t think well enough to make the cut.

We can\'t afford to have lot of people burning gasoline in cars, so EV\'s are going to end up with at least 99% of the market. but it is going to take a while to get there.

Not in my life time. We all want BEV to be higher, but the fact is in fact a matter of fact.

Norway has already got to 23.1% electric vehicles on its roads.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_electric_vehicles_in_Norway#/media/FileEVs_in_use_Top_countries_&_regional_markets_2020.png

#1 is 23%, #2 is 10% #3 is 6%, the rest are less than 5%. I should say 20% to 30% top for the USA.

> About 75% of the car now being sold there are electric, so that number is going to keep on going up.

I drive a Leaf golf cart. Rick drives a Tesla computer. What do you drive?

 

[Lasse Langwadt Christensen]

fredag den 28. april 2023 kl. 16.27.48 UTC+2 skrev Anthony William Sloman:

On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 11:37:00 PM UTC+10, Ed Lee wrote:
On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 4:46:20 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 7:25:41 AM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
On Thursday, April 27, 2023 at 11:59:44 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 1:10:31 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 4/27/2023 7:07 PM, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
On Thursday, 27 April 2023 at 08:15:43 UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
snip
I see BEV peaking at 20% to 30%. ICE will never disappear. I am a realist, you are an idealist.
You like to think that you are a realist, but you don\'t think well enough to make the cut.

We can\'t afford to have lot of people burning gasoline in cars, so EV\'s are going to end up with at least 99% of the market. but it is going to take a while to get there.

Norway has already got to 23.1% electric vehicles on its roads.

that is because they have and had extreme incentives to drive electric making it stupid to do anything else,
no tax or vat on car, half price on ferries and toll roads, free parking, use of bus lanes
all paid for by the state selling of oil and gas

 

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2023-04-28 16:27, Don Y wrote:

On 4/28/2023 5:18 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
That information would also be useful for gasoline cars. My country is
hilly, I would like to know the height profile of the proposed paths.

frown>  I have found this, recently, *somewhere*.  Though I can\'t
recall what I may have been looking for at the time.

That reminds me, that the TomTom never tells me to take a tunnel or
high pass. Says keep left or right instead (\"take the tunnel\" would be
way more useful). It has no information of the height I am at.

Yeah, navigation systems leave a lot to be desired.  \"Local knowledge\"
is often keenly missing.  They all tell me to head out \"the back way\"
for many of my destinations.  But, the back way is (permanently) gated
shut -- as anyone who lives here would know.

The nav system in the car at least lets me add artificial \"keep outs\"
to prevent it from proposing those routes.

OTOH, there are times it tells me I am driving over \"grass\" because
it isn\'t aware of a new road or bridge, etc.

There is a parking lot near me, where it proposes a path right through
the wall of the basement, because it thinks I am at ground level.

I find the routes that say \"go through the traffic light, make a U-turn,
return to the light and then make a LEFT turn\" to be the most puzzling
(this, in stead of just turning RIGHT when you first approach the
intersection???)

Or going an intricate path in an unfamiliar city to find a \"turn left\"
(we drive on the right, remember ;-)) that is explicitly prohibited or
just impossible in the traffic.

I hate when it takes me on a \"TomTom detour\" that saves half a minute on
the map, just to find that I have to cross or join a very busy street,
which takes a minute or two to manage.

Or, those that are too literal and find a destination that matches
your literal name of location -- 1000 miles from your current
location!  (wouldn\'t it be prudent to at least ask the user if that
was his intention??)

Heh.

SWMBO\'s vehicle once told me my destination was \"400 ft ahead, on the
left\" (it was as I could see it!) AND *8* miles away.

And? How could it be both?

One would think folks with deep pockets would invest in better
software development/test practices!

Yeah.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

 

[Ed Lee]

On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 10:03:46 AM UTC-7, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

fredag den 28. april 2023 kl. 16.27.48 UTC+2 skrev Anthony William Sloman:
On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 11:37:00 PM UTC+10, Ed Lee wrote:
On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 4:46:20 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 7:25:41 AM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
On Thursday, April 27, 2023 at 11:59:44 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 1:10:31 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 4/27/2023 7:07 PM, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
On Thursday, 27 April 2023 at 08:15:43 UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
snip
I see BEV peaking at 20% to 30%. ICE will never disappear. I am a realist, you are an idealist.
You like to think that you are a realist, but you don\'t think well enough to make the cut.

We can\'t afford to have lot of people burning gasoline in cars, so EV\'s are going to end up with at least 99% of the market. but it is going to take a while to get there.

Norway has already got to 23.1% electric vehicles on its roads.
that is because they have and had extreme incentives to drive electric making it stupid to do anything else,
no tax or vat on car, half price on ferries and toll roads, free parking, use of bus lanes
all paid for by the state selling of oil and gas

OTPH, i arrived in a school parking lot with 5 ICE cars on 6 chargers, only one available with handicap space. Yesterday, in another school, a teacher-type asked if i am in her school district. I said \"yes\", i am visiting in your district. Any more question and I would have to educate her that the solar panels and chargers were financed by state money and I am a state tax payer.

Such pathetic charging options. It\'s not for everyone.

 

[Don Y]

On 4/28/2023 10:29 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:

I find the routes that say \"go through the traffic light, make a U-turn,
return to the light and then make a LEFT turn\" to be the most puzzling
(this, in stead of just turning RIGHT when you first approach the
intersection???)

Or going an intricate path in an unfamiliar city to find a \"turn left\" (we
drive on the right, remember ;-)) that is explicitly prohibited or just
impossible in the traffic.

I hate when it takes me on a \"TomTom detour\" that saves half a minute on the
map, just to find that I have to cross or join a very busy street, which takes
a minute or two to manage.

Exactly. What sort of \"cost\" data are they storing with these routes?

SWMBO\'s vehicle once told me my destination was \"400 ft ahead, on the
left\" (it was as I could see it!) AND *8* miles away.

And? How could it be both?

I have no idea! But, I snapped a photo of it!

I also have photos of the \"radio\" showing it is set to \"preset #3\"
at frequency \"123.4\" while the presets displayed on the same screen
show preset #3 is \"456.7\".

One would think folks with deep pockets would invest in better
software development/test practices!

Yeah.

I suspect the problem is more that the folks making the
decisions/approving the specifications aren\'t competent in
the technology. So, they don\'t know what to expect or what to *ask*.

Stove has a simple UI: a rotary selector knob that you \"push-to-enter\".
So, touch the knob to wake up the electronics/display. Turn to select
cooking function (bake, roast, dehydrate, convection, etc.). Press
to enter. Turn to select temperature. Press to enter. Turn to select
\"start now\" vs. \"set cook time\". Press to enter. Select number of
*HOURS* to cook (WTF??). Press to enter. Select number of minutes to
cook. Press to enter. Select \"Press to start\". Press to enter.

Really? What idiot thought this was a good i/f?

 

[Ricky]

On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 9:11:43 AM UTC-4, Dean Hoffman wrote:

On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 1:59:44 AM UTC-5, Ricky wrote:
On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 1:10:31 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 4/27/2023 7:07 PM, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
On Thursday, 27 April 2023 at 08:15:43 UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
...

A neighbor sold her EV as she wasn\'t prepared to spend a week
driving it across the country (instead of 2-3 days).
...

She could have done it in less than 2 days.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a38095522/ev-cannonball-record-tesla-model-s/
*Any* ICE can do it in less than two days.
Not when they don\'t sell gasoline anymore. I never realized you were like this, can\'t see the forest for the trees.

--

Rick C.

++- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
I keep seeing articles discussing the material needed to make the batteries for EVs. China comes up repeatedly as the source. The U.S. is going to let its potential long term enemy control transportation?

They control everything else! What about needing tungsten from Russia, etc.., etc.?


> A superpower like the U.S. should be energy independent. This looks like a long term surrender.

We are energy independent. What materials do you think we depend on getting from China for BEV batteries? What are you reading???

--

Rick C.

--+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Ricky]

On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 9:37:00 AM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:

On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 4:46:20 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 7:25:41 AM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
On Thursday, April 27, 2023 at 11:59:44 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 1:10:31 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 4/27/2023 7:07 PM, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
On Thursday, 27 April 2023 at 08:15:43 UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
...

A neighbor sold her EV as she wasn\'t prepared to spend a week
driving it across the country (instead of 2-3 days).
...

She could have done it in less than 2 days.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a38095522/ev-cannonball-record-tesla-model-s/
*Any* ICE can do it in less than two days.
Not when they don\'t sell gasoline anymore. I never realized you were like this, can\'t see the forest for the trees.
That will be the day, fat chance. EVers will need gasoline for emergency. Perhaps we can buy gasoline from McDonald.

By the way, celebrating the pathetic charging network, approaching one year of the rest stop shutdown between Tulare and Delano, I am making a 20 miles detour through Porterville to get some electricity.
Emergency? What good is gasoline for an EV? Oh, you still want to be your own utility and make electricity. Ok, they will run a refinery and pipeline, just for you.
Emergency for portable generators and batteries. I have removable modules, sometimes more batteries, and sometimes more generators.
I want smaller and lighter generators, perhaps in segments of 100V DC.
The problem is as the market diminishes, the economy of scale goes away.. Gasoline will still be sold, but not from gas stations as fuel for vehicles. When the demand is down to 1% of what it is today, gasoline with be sold in 1 gallon cans at the hardware store like paint thinner. Or maybe not.
I see McDonald selling cups of gasoline more than hardware stores. I don\'t see hardware stores in remote travel stops.

No, McDonalds is never going to sell gasoline, LOL! Why would they sell gasoline just for YOU? How many people do you think need the sort of stuff you do? Maybe 1 in 10,000, or more likely 1 in 100,000. Not enough market. You never seen to understand this, only seeing the world through your eyes.

There really are not many uses for gasoline. It is a rather impure product, if you aren\'t burning it. Even in lanterns, they used \"white\" gas, which was a more refined product, to prevent spoiling of the wick.

When there is no longer a sustained market for a product, it goes away. You will need to use diesel for your generator, and that will be harder to come by as well.
Diesel and/or ethanol would be fine. I can build generators that run on ethanol.

There you go! You can use ethanol to run your car! Oh, it\'s electric. At least ethanol has potential for being carbon neutral. You electric nonsense probably ends up creating more carbon than driving an ICE.

I realize that anyone who buys a golf cart and tries to use it for long trips, is not going to understand much of what I explain, but that doesn\'t change the facts of ever decreasing demand for gasoline, and the evaporation of the support network for gas powered vehicles. By 2040, it will become prohibitively expensive and inconvenient to try to use any gasoline powered vehicles, including BEVs that are charged from personal generators.
We might be dead by 2040; so, work out a solution now.

We have a solution for now, ICE cars.

I\'m surprised that we aren\'t starting to see an impact on gas prices by now. I think BEV ownership is around 5% in the US. The distance driven dropped around 10% during the recession in 2008 and gas prices dropped hugely. Give it another couple of years and BEV ownership will reach 10%, which will make an impact on the price of gas. But by the time BEVs are 50% of the cars on the roads, parts of the distribution network will shut down and prices will start to go up again. I expect by 2040, gas will be working up to $10 a gallon. By 2045, there won\'t be gas stations anymore. People just can\'t grasp the idea. It\'s like saying TVs will go away, because we\'ve always known them. But gas cars are dinosaurs, and the asteroid has hit. It will only take a bit of time for them to become extinct.
I see BEV peaking at 20% to 30%. ICE will never disappear. I am a realist, you are an idealist.

No, I see the advantages of electric. Who wants to give up a $1,000 a year savings in fuel costs not to mention the savings in maintenance as well as never having to drive somewhere to get gasoline?

You are nowhere near a realist, or you wouldn\'t be sleeping in your car while waiting for a tow to the slow chargers. You... are boarder line insane.

--

Rick C.

-+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
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[Ricky]

On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 10:19:55 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:

On 4/28/2023 6:11 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
I keep seeing articles discussing the material needed to make the batteries
for EVs. China comes up repeatedly as the source. The U.S. is going to
let its potential long term enemy control transportation? A superpower like
the U.S. should be energy independent. This looks like a long term
surrender.
Batteries are a transitional technology. And, likely only used in
a segment of the energy market. Battery-only vehicles will be
fewer as hybrids become more practical alternatives.

Why can you not understand that hybrids are the \"transitional\" technology and battery electric vehicles are the final solution???

Hybrids use gasoline. They can never be carbon neutral! NEVER!!!

There\'s nothing impractical about hybrids today. They simply don\'t solve any problems we have.

And, there
will likely be alternate fuels as well as alternate modes of
transportation -- as well as different societal structures
(smaller \"communities\", less sprawl). You just can\'t economically
get big enough batteries to replace all (transportation) energy
needs.

LOL Urban designers have been designing alternative communities as long as communities have existed. Yet, we mostly use the same concepts, cities, suburbs and rural. It ain\'t changing much in the next 15 years as BEVs become the dominant form of personal transportation.

What do you tell a billion upwardly mobile chinamen -- or indians -- who
think THEY are entitled to transportation, too? \"Sorry, these are
just for OUR use...\"

Why would you think they need to be told anything. They are perfectly capable of dominating the world automotive market. It will be them telling us what we can drive, perhaps?

[And, the cost of replacing batteries will be an eye-opener to
many -- esp when subsidies fade or folks discover their used
electric vehicle isn\'t worth much when a buyer contemplates battery
replacement costs. How often have you been asked to replace
the *engine* in your ICE?]

You mean the cost of replacing an ICE engine? The battery will last as long, so what are you babbling about?

Vehicles will be burning petroleum products through most of the
21st century -- even if SALES of those vehicles are outright banned
at some date decade(s) hence. (who\'s going to compensate the
purchaser of a petroleum burning vehicle for his purchase before
that hypothetical date? who\'s going to compensate the petroleum
industry for their lost markets?)

You mean the way we compensate buggy whip makers? Please stop being absurd..

They still sell cigarettes! :

Recall diesel coming into prominence in the 70\'s? Yet, gasoline
has still been available continuously. We see vehicles running
on propane, diesel, gasoline, electric, etc. Hydrogen will take
a portion of the market, even if only to demonstrate it\'s viability.

Diesel prominence??? That never happened. It did get popular enough in personal cars and pickups, that most gas stations have a diesel pump, but nothing like \"prominence\". Other than the Volkswagen (dieselgate), I can\'t name one diesel passenger car.

No one is going to put all their eggs in one basket. Russia\'s energy
ransom with Europe has made that pretty clear to most of the world,
even if the politicians may opt to believe otherwise.

Electric cars are not eggs in a basket. They are made in the US. What are you talking about???

[And, if you think the US engages in wars to \"spread democracy\"
(and not for the natural resources at stake), you need to
revisit your history with a different focus! :> ]

What does that have to do with BEVs?

You really can get out there.

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Rick C.

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[Ricky]

On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 10:04:19 AM UTC-4, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:

On Thursday, 27 April 2023 at 23:58:22 UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
...
In tabular form it indicates how much energy was consumed by the various services such as propulsion, climate control. auxiliaries etc with a comparison to the estimation.
It does? Where does it show this info? I\'ve never seen that. It has an \"Energy\" display, where it shows projected charge levels over the course of the trip, along with the actual battery charge level. But, I\'ve never seen anything about where the energy is going.
Maybe it is not available on the Model S/X yet. It has been on the Model3/Y for 6 months or so.

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/new-energy-app.280829/

I haven\'t updated in a while. At the moment my 12V battery is being shunned by the car, so it won\'t update. It offers, but it also warns me elsewhere that I can\'t update until I replace the battery. Gotta do it sooner, rather than later. In this mode, the car loses 6% a day when not plugged in.

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Rick C.

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[Dean Hoffman]

On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 4:29:51 PM UTC-5, Ricky wrote:

On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 9:11:43 AM UTC-4, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 1:59:44 AM UTC-5, Ricky wrote:
On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 1:10:31 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 4/27/2023 7:07 PM, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
On Thursday, 27 April 2023 at 08:15:43 UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
...

A neighbor sold her EV as she wasn\'t prepared to spend a week
driving it across the country (instead of 2-3 days).
...

She could have done it in less than 2 days.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a38095522/ev-cannonball-record-tesla-model-s/
*Any* ICE can do it in less than two days.
Not when they don\'t sell gasoline anymore. I never realized you were like this, can\'t see the forest for the trees.

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Rick C.

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I keep seeing articles discussing the material needed to make the batteries for EVs. China comes up repeatedly as the source. The U.S. is going to let its potential long term enemy control transportation?
They control everything else! What about needing tungsten from Russia, etc., etc.?
A superpower like the U.S. should be energy independent. This looks like a long term surrender.
We are energy independent. What materials do you think we depend on getting from China for BEV batteries? What are you reading???

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Rick C.

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Things like this:
<https://www.visualcapitalist.com/sp/how-mineral-supply-will-change-ev-forecasts/>

Maybe one author is just copying another\'s research, more or less.

 

[Ricky]

On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 11:45:12 AM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:

On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 7:27:48 AM UTC-7, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 11:37:00 PM UTC+10, Ed Lee wrote:
On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 4:46:20 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 7:25:41 AM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
On Thursday, April 27, 2023 at 11:59:44 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 1:10:31 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 4/27/2023 7:07 PM, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
On Thursday, 27 April 2023 at 08:15:43 UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
snip
I see BEV peaking at 20% to 30%. ICE will never disappear. I am a realist, you are an idealist.
You like to think that you are a realist, but you don\'t think well enough to make the cut.

We can\'t afford to have lot of people burning gasoline in cars, so EV\'s are going to end up with at least 99% of the market. but it is going to take a while to get there.
Not in my life time.

That can be arraigned.


> We all want BEV to be higher, but the fact is in fact a matter of fact.

Yes, the fact is, it\'s very clear that BEVs are going to become the defacto car on the road. Bill says 99%, but that ignores what a PITA it will become to get gas for your tank at that point.

Norway has already got to 23.1% electric vehicles on its roads.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_electric_vehicles_in_Norway#/media/FileEVs_in_use_Top_countries_&_regional_markets_2020.png
#1 is 23%, #2 is 10% #3 is 6%, the rest are less than 5%. I should say 20% to 30% top for the USA.

Don\'t know what you mean \"top\". US has about 5% BEVs on the road. It\'s really hard to find this data, but once in a while you can find the data.

About 75% of the car now being sold there are electric, so that number is going to keep on going up.
I drive a Leaf golf cart. Rick drives a Tesla computer. What do you drive?

He drives a sausage burner.

--

Rick C.

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[Ricky]

On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 1:30:27 PM UTC-4, Carlos E.R. wrote:

On 2023-04-28 16:27, Don Y wrote:
On 4/28/2023 5:18 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
That information would also be useful for gasoline cars. My country is
hilly, I would like to know the height profile of the proposed paths.

frown> I have found this, recently, *somewhere*. Though I can\'t
recall what I may have been looking for at the time.

That reminds me, that the TomTom never tells me to take a tunnel or
high pass. Says keep left or right instead (\"take the tunnel\" would be
way more useful). It has no information of the height I am at.

Yeah, navigation systems leave a lot to be desired. \"Local knowledge\"
is often keenly missing. They all tell me to head out \"the back way\"
for many of my destinations. But, the back way is (permanently) gated
shut -- as anyone who lives here would know.

The nav system in the car at least lets me add artificial \"keep outs\"
to prevent it from proposing those routes.

OTOH, there are times it tells me I am driving over \"grass\" because
it isn\'t aware of a new road or bridge, etc.

There is a parking lot near me, where it proposes a path right through
the wall of the basement, because it thinks I am at ground level.

I find the routes that say \"go through the traffic light, make a U-turn,
return to the light and then make a LEFT turn\" to be the most puzzling
(this, in stead of just turning RIGHT when you first approach the
intersection???)
Or going an intricate path in an unfamiliar city to find a \"turn left\"
(we drive on the right, remember ;-)) that is explicitly prohibited or
just impossible in the traffic.

I hate when it takes me on a \"TomTom detour\" that saves half a minute on
the map, just to find that I have to cross or join a very busy street,
which takes a minute or two to manage.

Strange. The navigators I use are measuring traffic times, so they take you on paths that don\'t have significant delays like this. When going to my hometown, I prefer to take a more back route. The navigator just looks at the trip times and usually wants me to go the main highway. But when the traffic is bad, it agrees with me and recommends the back route. I guess TomTom doesn\'t actually have real time data to work with. Try Google maps on your phone, or Waze.

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Rick C.

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