E
Eeyore
Guest
Iain Churches wrote:
Graham
Do you know how to look at headers ? The imposter posts from Buzzard news.
Graham
L
Les Cargill
Guest
Eeyore wrote:
Reg:
All right, Stan. Don't labour the point. And what have they ever
given us in return?
Xerxes: The aqueduct.
Reg: Oh yeah, yeah they gave us that. Yeah. That's true.
Masked Activist:
And the sanitation!
Stan:
Oh yes... sanitation, Reg, you remember what the city used to be like.
Reg:
All right, I'll grant you that the aqueduct and the sanitation are
two things that the Romans have done...
Matthias:
And the roads...
http://www.epicure.demon.co.uk/whattheromans.html
--
Les Cargill
....
Reg:
All right, Stan. Don't labour the point. And what have they ever
given us in return?
Xerxes: The aqueduct.
Reg: Oh yeah, yeah they gave us that. Yeah. That's true.
Masked Activist:
And the sanitation!
Stan:
Oh yes... sanitation, Reg, you remember what the city used to be like.
Reg:
All right, I'll grant you that the aqueduct and the sanitation are
two things that the Romans have done...
Matthias:
And the roads...
http://www.epicure.demon.co.uk/whattheromans.html
--
Les Cargill
L
Les Cargill
Guest
Arny Krueger wrote:
The real story is *A WHOLE LOT* more complex than that.
It is as much about communications being simply impossible and the
choice of words on official documents being unfortunate. My
five center is that King George said "you don't want to be traitors,
do you", which the Founding Fathers interpreted as "you are
traitors". The HBO "John Adams" series does a reasonable job of
this, but not too great.
It is also about the fact that the Colonies were a financial drain,
something that could not be clearly understood for decades or centuries.
"Wealth of Nations" was only published in 1776, and its implications
are still being debated.
It think the great innovation of the Revolution was the denial of
absolute political power to a divine right monarch, but that
wasn't even that new. But we go back and forth - the grass is always
greener - once "imperial" Presidencies show weakness, we go
the other way.
refusing support for the South, which thwarted the only
straight Jefferson Davis could have drawn to.
Indeed, the British economy suffered greatly because of the
cotton boycott - the principal industry of the time was
textiles, and new sources were painful to develop. This
probably spurred growth of the Empire.
But Karl Marx himself helped found and carry the cotton
boycott. He showed the British that a country that had
outlawed slavery could not in good conscience support a
slave regime.
that I'm not 100% sure any country would claim him. British
involvement in SA was not very colonial, and was limited
to a shipping outpost prior to wars with the Dutch - wars
which were not that much about SA.... it was an accidental
colony.
short story just doesn't cut it.
Les Cargill
That is patently and very simply untrue. That is the five cent story.
The real story is *A WHOLE LOT* more complex than that.
It is as much about communications being simply impossible and the
choice of words on official documents being unfortunate. My
five center is that King George said "you don't want to be traitors,
do you", which the Founding Fathers interpreted as "you are
traitors". The HBO "John Adams" series does a reasonable job of
this, but not too great.
It is also about the fact that the Colonies were a financial drain,
something that could not be clearly understood for decades or centuries.
"Wealth of Nations" was only published in 1776, and its implications
are still being debated.
It think the great innovation of the Revolution was the denial of
absolute political power to a divine right monarch, but that
wasn't even that new. But we go back and forth - the grass is always
greener - once "imperial" Presidencies show weakness, we go
the other way.
Wrong.
Very, very wrong. At best, British involvement was limited to
refusing support for the South, which thwarted the only
straight Jefferson Davis could have drawn to.
Indeed, the British economy suffered greatly because of the
cotton boycott - the principal industry of the time was
textiles, and new sources were painful to develop. This
probably spurred growth of the Empire.
But Karl Marx himself helped found and carry the cotton
boycott. He showed the British that a country that had
outlawed slavery could not in good conscience support a
slave regime.
Not even Ghandi phrased it in those terms.
The "rapist" in SA was Cecil Rhodes, who was enough a pirate
that I'm not 100% sure any country would claim him. British
involvement in SA was not very colonial, and was limited
to a shipping outpost prior to wars with the Dutch - wars
which were not that much about SA.... it was an accidental
colony.
There is no way to discuss this without *REAMS* of detail. The
short story just doesn't cut it.
This is just ridiculous, Arny. Stop it. You are embarrassing yourself.
--
Les Cargill
L
Les Cargill
Guest
Eeyore wrote:
(I kid, Grahama).
That's largely irrelevant to the point at hand. And the
indigenous population wanted to use the... "white-eyes"
as a strategic ally against other indigenous populations.
They chose poorly.
There's venality and error enough for everybody involved. If
you dig deep enough into even Jackson's story, you find
that the Cherokee had internecine conflict that enabled
that significantly.
The Western plains tribes were more unfortunate, but
such was the understanding of people at the time. Without
Manifest Destiny, there would have been no America. The
railroads were critical.
Dutch East India Company.
Les Cargill
I see. Who was William the Ba^H^H Conquerror?
(I kid, Grahama).That's largely irrelevant to the point at hand. And the
indigenous population wanted to use the... "white-eyes"
as a strategic ally against other indigenous populations.
They chose poorly.
There's venality and error enough for everybody involved. If
you dig deep enough into even Jackson's story, you find
that the Cherokee had internecine conflict that enabled
that significantly.
The Western plains tribes were more unfortunate, but
such was the understanding of people at the time. Without
Manifest Destiny, there would have been no America. The
railroads were critical.
So what was that Ghandi guy so upset about?
The Boers were stranded/isolated, mainly by the bankruptcy of the
Dutch East India Company.
--
Les Cargill
T
terryc
Guest
On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 07:45:19 -0400, Les Cargill wrote:
succeeded.
Correct, it was really a power grab by the wealthy of the colony and they
succeeded.
L
Les Cargill
Guest
liquidator wrote:
media gets financed, the big conglomerates are probably
the only way it'll work.
Media does not have an educational nor *really* a public-goods
charter. Unless you want to see BBC style gummint organs
of media (which is not a bad model at all), you'll get what
you get.
At least the cablers provide CSPAN.
--
Les Cargill
That won't change anything. If you dig deep enough into how
media gets financed, the big conglomerates are probably
the only way it'll work.
Media does not have an educational nor *really* a public-goods
charter. Unless you want to see BBC style gummint organs
of media (which is not a bad model at all), you'll get what
you get.
At least the cablers provide CSPAN.
--
Les Cargill
L
Les Cargill
Guest
Eeyore wrote:
real estate speculation. Has been since Osceola and Al
Capone, respectively. Tourism is recent, and limited
to certain regions which have developed a really nasty
crime problem recently...
It also serves as a mythic Shangri La for people from New York City,
at least since "Midnight Cowboy". They buy beach condos and then
don't live in them.
The Brevard County seat is Titusville. The first
telephone line in a county building was in the courthouse in Titusville
around 1950. It was not named after Titus Andronicus, but it should have
been... the point being, there was nobody here.
But the weather is awesome.
I am referring to the "lower Alabama" portions of Florida, not Miami,
which is an ostensibly South American outpost that nobody really
understands.
--
Les Cargill
Florida is nothing but a military outpost with pretensions to
real estate speculation. Has been since Osceola and Al
Capone, respectively. Tourism is recent, and limited
to certain regions which have developed a really nasty
crime problem recently...
It also serves as a mythic Shangri La for people from New York City,
at least since "Midnight Cowboy". They buy beach condos and then
don't live in them.
The Brevard County seat is Titusville. The first
telephone line in a county building was in the courthouse in Titusville
around 1950. It was not named after Titus Andronicus, but it should have
been... the point being, there was nobody here.
But the weather is awesome.
I am referring to the "lower Alabama" portions of Florida, not Miami,
which is an ostensibly South American outpost that nobody really
understands.
--
Les Cargill
L
Les Cargill
Guest
terryc wrote:
simply won't work. Who was a "good guy"/"bad guy" depends on too much
detail to bother.
The Founders were a lot broke-arse land speculators, the British
proper snubbed them socially and mistakes were made.
But the bottom line is that communications were impossible, and
things get worse when that is true.
--
Les Cargill
These were not unprincipled people, and trying to make a novel out of it
simply won't work. Who was a "good guy"/"bad guy" depends on too much
detail to bother.
The Founders were a lot broke-arse land speculators, the British
proper snubbed them socially and mistakes were made.
But the bottom line is that communications were impossible, and
things get worse when that is true.
--
Les Cargill
K
keithr
Guest
"Iain Churches" <IainNG@kolumbus.fi> wrote in message
news:VDbrk.53345$_03.3426@reader1.news.saunalahti.fi...
Outlook Express is a horrible news reader, I must get my Linux machine put
back together.
Keith
news:VDbrk.53345$_03.3426@reader1.news.saunalahti.fi...
Right click on the message and select "Prpoerties"
Outlook Express is a horrible news reader, I must get my Linux machine put
back together.
Keith
J
Joe Kotroczo
Guest
On 21/08/08 12:41, in article
VDbrk.53345$_03.3426@reader1.news.saunalahti.fi, "Iain Churches"
<IainNG@kolumbus.fi> wrote:
(...)
--
Joe Kotroczo kotroczo@mac.com
VDbrk.53345$_03.3426@reader1.news.saunalahti.fi, "Iain Churches"
<IainNG@kolumbus.fi> wrote:
(...)
No idea, sorry. Haven't used Windows since NT 4.0.
--
Joe Kotroczo kotroczo@mac.com
I
Iain Churches
Guest
"keithr" <keithr@nowhere.com.au> wrote in message
news:48ad61ff@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
Iain
news:48ad61ff@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
Got it! Interesting. Thanks.
Iain
A
Arny Krueger
Guest
"Eeyore" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in
message news:48AC7FDC.A8CAE620@hotmail.com
were spartan, the survival rate was very, very high. The US paid tens of
millions in compensation, and issued formal apologies.
Note that Canada interned tens of thousands of Japanese at the same time.
Thus, the British Commonwealth is in no position to point an accusing
finger.
confiscation.
There was a very high death rate in the British concentration camps due to
disease and malnutrition.The disposition of the property of the thousands of
dead hardly mattered to them.
Interesting what the allegedly superior British educational system does not
teach...
message news:48AC7FDC.A8CAE620@hotmail.com
Well yes, they were both composed of buildings. While the US accommodations
were spartan, the survival rate was very, very high. The US paid tens of
millions in compensation, and issued formal apologies.
Note that Canada interned tens of thousands of Japanese at the same time.
Thus, the British Commonwealth is in no position to point an accusing
finger.
True, Kitchener's "Scorched Earth" policy was about total destruction, not
confiscation.
There was a very high death rate in the British concentration camps due to
disease and malnutrition.The disposition of the property of the thousands of
dead hardly mattered to them.
Interesting what the allegedly superior British educational system does not
teach...
A
Arny Krueger
Guest
"Eeyore" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in
message news:48AC825C.3AB48F7D@hotmail.com
(1) Emigrate to the UK?
(2) Voice their opinions to a citizen of the UK?
Nahh, the Dutch with anti-British sentiments came to places where they knew
they would find people with like experiences and sentiments. IOW, the US.
;-)
Note the congenital disrespect of the US from countries that we saved from
total destruction at least twice: UK & France.
Our first *mistake* was rising above them, and our second *mistake* was
staying there. ;-)
message news:48AC825C.3AB48F7D@hotmail.com
Would you expect Dutch with anti-British sentiments to:
(1) Emigrate to the UK?
(2) Voice their opinions to a citizen of the UK?
Nahh, the Dutch with anti-British sentiments came to places where they knew
they would find people with like experiences and sentiments. IOW, the US.
;-)
Note the congenital disrespect of the US from countries that we saved from
total destruction at least twice: UK & France.
Our first *mistake* was rising above them, and our second *mistake* was
staying there. ;-)
A
Arny Krueger
Guest
"keithr" <keithr@nowhere.com.au> wrote in message
news:48ac9698$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au
trying to re-balance the books?
news:48ac9698$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au
Obviously, they have feelings of inferiority or why else would they be
trying to re-balance the books?
Prove it.
A
Arny Krueger
Guest
"Les Cargill" <lcargill@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
news:48ad5521$0$28414$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosting.com
five cent answer.
your narrow view.
aren't resolved.
If you want to respond properly, you'll present a relevant, concise
counter-argument.
news:48ad5521$0$28414$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosting.com
So much for all the literature of the day that basically said exactly that.
Reality is always complex. I was responding to a two cent falsehood with a
five cent answer.
Nice job of dismissing available documentation that seems to disagree with
your narrow view.
In the context, probably pretty reasonable.
Ah, truth by means of HBO. ;-)
You're trying to obfuscate by means of raising issues that you admit still
aren't resolved.
If you want to respond properly, you'll present a relevant, concise
counter-argument.
A
Arny Krueger
Guest
"keithr" <keithr@nowhere.com.au> wrote in message
news:48ac8ecf$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au
citizens, so you are whining about a policy that is in fact accepted
reality.
The taxes you paid were substantially the ones in force when you got your
visa. You were offered a deal, you took it, and now you apparently wish to
whine about it.
Not my problem. I guess you should have stayed home. ;-)
news:48ac8ecf$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au
I note that voting in the UK and most other countries is also restricted to
citizens, so you are whining about a policy that is in fact accepted
reality.
The taxes you paid were substantially the ones in force when you got your
visa. You were offered a deal, you took it, and now you apparently wish to
whine about it.
Not my problem. I guess you should have stayed home. ;-)
P
Peter Larsen
Guest
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Kind regards
Peter Larsen
How's the dollar Michael?
Kind regards
Peter Larsen
A
Arny Krueger
Guest
"Peter Larsen" <digilyd@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:48ad6ca1$0$56775$edfadb0f@dtext02.news.tele.dk
Doesn't matter what the dollar is worth if you've got enough of them to live
well. Almost all US inhabitants do. The rest need to either get a job or at
least apply for welfare. ;-)
Remember that in the US we are whining about paying 1/3 to 1/4 as much for
gasoline as most of the rest of the world.
The dollar is still the official legal tender in many countries other than
the US. And defacto legal tender in many more.
news:48ad6ca1$0$56775$edfadb0f@dtext02.news.tele.dk
Improving.
Doesn't matter what the dollar is worth if you've got enough of them to live
well. Almost all US inhabitants do. The rest need to either get a job or at
least apply for welfare. ;-)
Remember that in the US we are whining about paying 1/3 to 1/4 as much for
gasoline as most of the rest of the world.
The dollar is still the official legal tender in many countries other than
the US. And defacto legal tender in many more.
I
Iain Churches
Guest
"Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message
news:fvadnecwk_fo8DDVnZ2dnUVZ_gGdnZ2d@comcast.com...
History, geography and now economics.
Come on Arny, tell us more
Iain
news:fvadnecwk_fo8DDVnZ2dnUVZ_gGdnZ2d@comcast.com...
A dunce in three subjects in one thread:
History, geography and now economics.
Come on Arny, tell us more
Iain
L
Les Cargill
Guest
Arny Krueger wrote:
story. Your statement can easily be untrue without being
false - it is a partial truth.
smaller element when in context."
a recommendation. I really don't like the book it's based on
all that much - the movie's better in this case.
story. The colonies were a drain on the Crown treasury, for reasons
not well understood for a century. That is why the taxes were levied.
The colonists, not being so-much colonizers, didn't want to pay for it
either.
--
Les Cargill
The literature is what's know as "agitprop". It's a part of the
story. Your statement can easily be untrue without being
false - it is a partial truth.
I find no definition of the word "dismiss" that means "places as a
smaller element when in context."
Probably.
No, offering a realatively well-wrought survey item of media as
a recommendation. I really don't like the book it's based on
all that much - the movie's better in this case.
These are not obfuscations - these are elements of the
story. The colonies were a drain on the Crown treasury, for reasons
not well understood for a century. That is why the taxes were levied.
The colonists, not being so-much colonizers, didn't want to pay for it
either.
You'll find very few better, Arny. This is about as "concise" as it gets.
--
Les Cargill