OT (US CITIZENS ONLY): S877 Can Spam Law

Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun · Dec 22, 2003

In article <GkQU$XAxFm5$EwOa@jmwa.demon.co.uk>,
jmw@jmwa.demon.contraspam.yuk mentioned...

I read in sci.electronics.design that Watson A. Name - Watt Sun, Dark
Remover <alondra101@hotmail.com> wrote (in <MPG.1a4fb95a97df5f43989a5c@n
ews.dslextreme.com&gt about 'OT (US CITIZENS ONLY): S877 Can Spam Law',
on Sun, 21 Dec 2003:

Back to off-topic: Ya see, NY AG Spitzer ain't no wuss like CA AG
Lockyer. He and his minions are out there fighting for us. The other
day I was reading some clueless journalist's story about how Scott
Richter was making so many tens of millions of dollars a year. Well,
how about this? He had better take some of that money and hire a
*really* good lawyer, because he's really gonna need him! He's really
got his tit caught in a ringer now! AAMOF when they get done with
him, he may not have money to buy a pencil! I hope they throw him in
jail, too.

Did you read those other clueless journalists' articles talking about
how it was impossible to trace the spammers? How they all work from
offshore? Well, read the following article below and then decide. We
will see more of these kinds of clampdowns in the near future, as more
and more law enforcement agencies catch up to these abusive and now
illegal spammers.

http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2003/dec03/12-
18NYSAGandMicrosoftPR.asp

Just when you thought you had all this figured out, the gov't
changed it: http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/binary.html

It wasn't the government (of any country) but IEC TC25. I'm surprised
they didn't realise that it's a mug's game trying to change language
usage, however good the intention. Look at 'RMS power', for example.
first debunked about 50 years ago, but still going strong.

--
@@F@r@o@m@@O@r@a@n@g@e@@C@o@u@n@t@y@,@@C@a@l@,@@w@h@e@r@e@@
###Got a Question about ELECTRONICS? Check HERE First:###
http://users.pandora.be/educypedia/electronics/databank.htm
My email address is whitelisted. *All* email sent to it
goes directly to the trash unless you add NOSPAM in the
Subject: line with other stuff. alondra101 <at> hotmail.com
Don't be ripped off by the big book dealers. Go to the URL
that will give you a choice and save you money(up to half).
http://www.everybookstore.com You'll be glad you did!
Just when you thought you had all this figured out, the gov't
changed it: http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/binary.html
@@t@h@e@@a@f@f@l@u@e@n@t@@m@e@e@t@@t@h@e@@E@f@f@l@u@e@n@t@@

Ross Matheson · Dec 22, 2003

"Tim Williams" <tmoranwms@charter.net> wrote:

: Far be it for me to enter a religious argument but...
:
: "Fred Bloggs" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
: news:3FE4D9F4.1040107@nospam.com...
: > Where are you getting this crap! The damned pharisees framed him by
: > charging that Jesus proclaimed himself king of the Jews- in direct
: > violation of Roman law, the only way to get him in Roman court. This
: > sounds like a frame to me, and he didn't give himself up- he was
: > arrested quite forcefully- and the apostles were hunted down relentlessly.
:
: But if he didn't want to die he could've fled Jerusalem, several times.

What if he did live? Old texts and even the Koran are adamant that he did.
Explanations of the previous paragraphs ideas may also be found below.

Not to offend anybody, but the approved New Testament including the Gospels
are products of historic bad translations and selections by the eaRly Church.

Since these are science groups, perhaps some healthy skepticism is apt?
Misunderstandings abound, as we know, when words are misunderstood!

http://www.nexusmagazine.com/holygrail.html is a transcript of a lecture.

A book version at http://www.karenlyster.com/bookish.html has more detail.

I find that scholarly analysis much more believable than the usual "beliefs".

Another book by different authors "The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail" comes
to some similiar conclusions toward the very end and is also well researched.
None of this demeaning spiritual aspects, in getting to the truth of history.

Great care is taken not to offend, as I hope anyone who reads either sees.

Enjoy!

Best Regards,

Ross Matheson

+ "Peace on Earth to Men of Goodwill"

Active8 · Dec 22, 2003

On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 16:24:20 +0000, jmw@jmwa.demon.contraspam.yuk
said...

I read in sci.electronics.design that Active8 <mTHISREMOVEcolasono@earth
link.net> wrote (in <MPG.1a4f7ec71214c1a198972b@news.west.earthlink.net
) about 'OT (US CITIZENS ONLY): S877 Can Spam Law', on Sun, 21 Dec
2003:
It's just as easy for a bot to read a header as it is for a human.

Let's apply a little common sense logic. You're writing a program
to retrieve e-mail, news posts, or web pages. Having never done
that, one might correctly conclude that there are API functions for
HTTP, SMTP, NNTP, WinSock API functions, and VBA controls to get
the job done. If there's a way to get a message body, there should
be a way to get a header. Guess what? There is. Is it any harder to
parse a message header than a message body?

The fact remains that spambots DIDN'T cull 'Reply to' addresses. Whether
they do now, or not, I don't have any firm information, but 'people say'
that they don't.

People say a lot of things. Let's move from logic to observation.

Notice how your reader moved header info into the body?

I read in sci.electronics.design that Active8 <mTHISREMOVEcolasono@earth
link.net> wrote (in <MPG.1a4f7ec71214c1a198972b@news.west.earthlink.net
) about 'OT (US CITIZENS ONLY): S877 Can Spam Law', on Sun, 21 Dec
2003:

Now that's fact.

--
BRs,
Mike

Frank Bemelman · Dec 22, 2003

"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> schreef in bericht
news:3FE5E5D4.A4AEC0FD@earthlink.net...

Mark Jones wrote:

And lest us not forget, for the keen and savvy emailer who has never
used
one of their addresses yet started receiving spam on it... some spammers
send bulk mail to computer-generated random addresses, much like a
wardialer
of the new millennium. This practice should be strictly banned by any
and
every mail server, yet there is apparently zero enforcement of any limit
on
the number of "bad" messages you can send.

What would be ideal, was if one account sent more than say 1000
"undeliverable" messages per month, their email rights would be
suspended
and activity reviewed by their ISP's legal department pending
reactivation.
Sure this might make more work for the ISP's, but were talking 1-2
people to
manage the issue (after the initial flood of millions of spammers'
accounts'
being closed.)

Nice to dream, eh?

The sender's mails server should only let through email with a valid
address for that account. That way they can't hide, and any emails
server found to be an open relay is completely isolated from the E-mail
system. The information in E-mail headers should be standardized, and
any E-mail server without a valid "Abuse@***.***"address should be
blocked as well. It would cause a lot of problems for a very short time.
Those who don't cooperate can only talk to other low lives like them, as
the rest of the system slowly squeezes them out of business. Implement
it at the backbone level. That way, so called "Direct marketers" with
their own domain name and e-mail servers will be forced to comply, or
loose their on-ramp to the highway. How long could they exist without a
lot of bandwidth to send messages? This would eliminate the need for
limits on the number of E-mails you can send, or billing per e-mail. If
a E-mail server is getting a lot of bounced mail from bad addresses,
they content is examined, and if needed, their connection to the
backbone is severed. This way it doesn't matter whether you are in a
foreign country, or aboard the ISS, you can be blocked. (The ISS has a
20 MHZ bandwidth KU-Band data link to and from the ground.)
--

I prefer a system that is similar to the real paper mail system.
That means you can send email (letters) anonymously, to non-existing
addresses, fake return addresses, all as long as you put a stamp on it.
That old system does not have spam problems, at least not to the
extent that you get 100+ pieces of rubbish in your mailbox.

One cent per email to send. Five cent for an attachement

--
Thanks, Frank.
(remove 'x' and 'invalid' when replying by email)

Active8 · Dec 22, 2003

On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 19:16:30 +0100, fbemelx@euronet.invalid.nl
said...

"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> schreef in bericht
news:3FE5E5D4.A4AEC0FD@earthlink.net...
Mark Jones wrote:

And lest us not forget, for the keen and savvy emailer who has never
used
one of their addresses yet started receiving spam on it... some spammers
send bulk mail to computer-generated random addresses, much like a
wardialer
of the new millennium. This practice should be strictly banned by any
and
every mail server, yet there is apparently zero enforcement of any limit
on
the number of "bad" messages you can send.

What would be ideal, was if one account sent more than say 1000
"undeliverable" messages per month, their email rights would be
suspended
and activity reviewed by their ISP's legal department pending
reactivation.
Sure this might make more work for the ISP's, but were talking 1-2
people to
manage the issue (after the initial flood of millions of spammers'
accounts'
being closed.)

Nice to dream, eh?

The sender's mails server should only let through email with a valid
address for that account. That way they can't hide, and any emails
server found to be an open relay is completely isolated from the E-mail
system. The information in E-mail headers should be standardized, and
any E-mail server without a valid "Abuse@***.***"address should be
blocked as well. It would cause a lot of problems for a very short time.
Those who don't cooperate can only talk to other low lives like them, as
the rest of the system slowly squeezes them out of business. Implement
it at the backbone level. That way, so called "Direct marketers" with
their own domain name and e-mail servers will be forced to comply, or
loose their on-ramp to the highway. How long could they exist without a
lot of bandwidth to send messages? This would eliminate the need for
limits on the number of E-mails you can send, or billing per e-mail. If
a E-mail server is getting a lot of bounced mail from bad addresses,
they content is examined, and if needed, their connection to the
backbone is severed. This way it doesn't matter whether you are in a
foreign country, or aboard the ISS, you can be blocked. (The ISS has a
20 MHZ bandwidth KU-Band data link to and from the ground.)
--

I prefer a system that is similar to the real paper mail system.
That means you can send email (letters) anonymously, to non-existing
addresses, fake return addresses, all as long as you put a stamp on it.

I already pay to send email. You must mean an anonymous sender
surcharge. That's an idea.

I had a femaleman tell me once that the (at that time) 35 cents for
a stamp didn't cover the actual cost to deliver the letter. A
friend works for the Balto City main post office. He told me the US
postal serivice was put into private hands but is still govt
regulated or whatever. That's pretty typical.

I can't remember the man's name that built the only US railroad
from money he raised himself. no govt money involved. It was the
only railroad in the country to ever show a profit.

The point is, if the money is free, why care?

That old system does not have spam problems, at least not to the
extent that you get 100+ pieces of rubbish in your mailbox.

One cent per email to send. Five cent for an attachement

There was some talk about telemarketers having to pay a penny or

so, maybe 5 cents to the person called. It would show up on their
phone bill. If that's all they're offering they can keep it.

I checked a snail-mailing list company once. I think it was $7.50
per 1000 qualified leads, I can't remember, but that's a pretty
good deal.

BRs,
Mike

Richard Henry · Dec 23, 2003

"Active8" <mTHISREMOVEcolasono@earthlink.net,invalid> wrote in message
news:MPG.1a5108489600b584989730@news.west.earthlink.net...

I can't remember the man's name that built the only US railroad
from money he raised himself. no govt money involved. It was the
only railroad in the country to ever show a profit.

Do you have a reference to this amazing fact?

Active8 · Dec 23, 2003

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 14:47:27 -0800, rphenry@home.com said...

"Active8" <mTHISREMOVEcolasono@earthlink.net,invalid> wrote in message
news:MPG.1a5108489600b584989730@news.west.earthlink.net...

I can't remember the man's name that built the only US railroad
from money he raised himself. no govt money involved. It was the
only railroad in the country to ever show a profit.

Do you have a reference to this amazing fact?

It was in a book called "The Book". It's not here. Google Neotech

or try it as a domain name. The book is partly hogwash, but someone
I talked to had heard of this guy. The RR was built across the
north part of the country and may have crossed into Canada. I tried
google on John Hill, and didn't find anything obvious. Not being
sure of his name, I don't know.

Do you know of any Federally subsidized businesses that *do* turn a
profit?

BRs,
Mike

Jim Thompson · Dec 23, 2003

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 22:54:03 GMT, Active8
<mTHISREMOVEcolasono@earthlink.net,invalid> wrote:

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 14:47:27 -0800, rphenry@home.com said...

"Active8" <mTHISREMOVEcolasono@earthlink.net,invalid> wrote in message
news:MPG.1a5108489600b584989730@news.west.earthlink.net...

I can't remember the man's name that built the only US railroad
from money he raised himself. no govt money involved. It was the
only railroad in the country to ever show a profit.

Do you have a reference to this amazing fact?

It was in a book called "The Book". It's not here. Google Neotech
or try it as a domain name. The book is partly hogwash, but someone
I talked to had heard of this guy. The RR was built across the
north part of the country and may have crossed into Canada. I tried
google on John Hill, and didn't find anything obvious. Not being
sure of his name, I don't know.

Do you know of any Federally subsidized businesses that *do* turn a
profit?

BRs,
Mike

Maybe the benefactor of my home town (Huntington, WV) and founder of
the C&O RR...

Huntington, Collis P. (Potter) 1821 -- 1900
Railway builder; born in Harwinton, Conn. Starting as a peddler, he
became a store owner in Oneonta, N.Y. (1842--49). With the Gold Rush,
he moved to Sacramento, Calif., where he opened a store; taking on
Mark Hopkins, it soon prospered as a mercantile business, Huntington
Huntington went to Washington, D.C., and New York City to arrange for
financing and by 1869 their Central Pacific Railroad was linking with
the Union Pacific in Utah. Known as "Huntington's group," the men
launched more enterprises including the Southern Pacific Railway
(1884), of which Huntington succeeded Stanford as president in 1890.
Huntington remained largely in the East where he ruthlessly lobbied
for his railroad's interests, with little regard for his competitors,
the government, or the public. He extended his own interest to eastern
transportation projects including the Chesapeake & Ohio Railway and
the steamship business, becoming ever more wealthy if disreputable.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Active8 · Dec 24, 2003

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 16:00:32 -0700, invalid@invalid.invalid said...

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 22:54:03 GMT, Active8
mTHISREMOVEcolasono@earthlink.net,invalid> wrote:

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 14:47:27 -0800, rphenry@home.com said...

"Active8" <mTHISREMOVEcolasono@earthlink.net,invalid> wrote in message
news:MPG.1a5108489600b584989730@news.west.earthlink.net...

I can't remember the man's name that built the only US railroad
from money he raised himself. no govt money involved. It was the
only railroad in the country to ever show a profit.

Do you have a reference to this amazing fact?

It was in a book called "The Book". It's not here. Google Neotech
or try it as a domain name. The book is partly hogwash, but someone
I talked to had heard of this guy. The RR was built across the
north part of the country and may have crossed into Canada. I tried
google on John Hill, and didn't find anything obvious. Not being
sure of his name, I don't know.

Do you know of any Federally subsidized businesses that *do* turn a
profit?

BRs,
Mike

Maybe the benefactor of my home town (Huntington, WV) and founder of
the C&O RR...

Huntington, Collis P. (Potter) 1821 -- 1900
Railway builder; born in Harwinton, Conn. Starting as a peddler, he
became a store owner in Oneonta, N.Y. (1842--49). With the Gold Rush,
he moved to Sacramento, Calif., where he opened a store; taking on
Mark Hopkins, it soon prospered as a mercantile business, Huntington
Huntington went to Washington, D.C., and New York City to arrange for
financing and by 1869 their Central Pacific Railroad was linking with
the Union Pacific in Utah. Known as "Huntington's group," the men
launched more enterprises including the Southern Pacific Railway
(1884), of which Huntington succeeded Stanford as president in 1890.
Huntington remained largely in the East where he ruthlessly lobbied
for his railroad's interests, with little regard for his competitors,
the government, or the public. He extended his own interest to eastern
transportation projects including the Chesapeake & Ohio Railway and
the steamship business, becoming ever more wealthy if disreputable.

...Jim Thompson

Doesn't ring a bell, but I'll wager that he valued his businesses

more than those who use govt money.

I didn't know you were from West "by God". Nice hills and hollers.

--
Mike

Dave VanHorn · Dec 24, 2003

Do you know of any Federally subsidized businesses that *do* turn a
profit?

For a while, the IRS ran the Mustang Ranch in nevada.
Only the IRS could loose money at a legal brothel.

Jim Thompson · Dec 24, 2003

On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 00:25:59 GMT, Active8
<mTHISREMOVEcolasono@earthlink.net,invalid> wrote:

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 16:00:32 -0700, invalid@invalid.invalid said...
On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 22:54:03 GMT, Active8
mTHISREMOVEcolasono@earthlink.net,invalid> wrote:

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 14:47:27 -0800, rphenry@home.com said...

"Active8" <mTHISREMOVEcolasono@earthlink.net,invalid> wrote in message
news:MPG.1a5108489600b584989730@news.west.earthlink.net...

I can't remember the man's name that built the only US railroad
from money he raised himself. no govt money involved. It was the
only railroad in the country to ever show a profit.

Do you have a reference to this amazing fact?

It was in a book called "The Book". It's not here. Google Neotech
or try it as a domain name. The book is partly hogwash, but someone
I talked to had heard of this guy. The RR was built across the
north part of the country and may have crossed into Canada. I tried
google on John Hill, and didn't find anything obvious. Not being
sure of his name, I don't know.

Do you know of any Federally subsidized businesses that *do* turn a
profit?

BRs,
Mike

Maybe the benefactor of my home town (Huntington, WV) and founder of
the C&O RR...

Huntington, Collis P. (Potter) 1821 -- 1900
Railway builder; born in Harwinton, Conn. Starting as a peddler, he
became a store owner in Oneonta, N.Y. (1842--49). With the Gold Rush,
he moved to Sacramento, Calif., where he opened a store; taking on
Mark Hopkins, it soon prospered as a mercantile business, Huntington
Huntington went to Washington, D.C., and New York City to arrange for
financing and by 1869 their Central Pacific Railroad was linking with
the Union Pacific in Utah. Known as "Huntington's group," the men
launched more enterprises including the Southern Pacific Railway
(1884), of which Huntington succeeded Stanford as president in 1890.
Huntington remained largely in the East where he ruthlessly lobbied
for his railroad's interests, with little regard for his competitors,
the government, or the public. He extended his own interest to eastern
transportation projects including the Chesapeake & Ohio Railway and
the steamship business, becoming ever more wealthy if disreputable.

...Jim Thompson

Doesn't ring a bell, but I'll wager that he valued his businesses
more than those who use govt money.

I didn't know you were from West "by God". Nice hills and hollers.

Yep. Shame that Senator Byrd keeps it as his personal fiefdom. He
was elected to the Senate in 1958, the same year I graduated from High
School. He's been so good for the state of West Virginia that the
population is less now than it was in 1958 :-(

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Richard Henry · Dec 24, 2003

"Active8" <mTHISREMOVEcolasono@earthlink.net,invalid> wrote in message
news:MPG.1a529197cac2b6ac989739@news.west.earthlink.net...

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 14:47:27 -0800, rphenry@home.com said...

"Active8" <mTHISREMOVEcolasono@earthlink.net,invalid> wrote in message
news:MPG.1a5108489600b584989730@news.west.earthlink.net...

I can't remember the man's name that built the only US railroad
from money he raised himself. no govt money involved. It was the
only railroad in the country to ever show a profit.

Do you have a reference to this amazing fact?

It was in a book called "The Book". It's not here. Google Neotech
or try it as a domain name. The book is partly hogwash, but someone
I talked to had heard of this guy. The RR was built across the
north part of the country and may have crossed into Canada. I tried
google on John Hill, and didn't find anything obvious. Not being
sure of his name, I don't know.

Do you know of any Federally subsidized businesses that *do* turn a
profit?

My lack of knowledge on a topic is no proof of your statement.

Richard Henry · Dec 24, 2003

"Active8" <mTHISREMOVEcolasono@earthlink.net,invalid> wrote in message
news:MPG.1a52a7235cbcd06e989742@news.west.earthlink.net...

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 16:00:32 -0700, invalid@invalid.invalid said...
On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 22:54:03 GMT, Active8
mTHISREMOVEcolasono@earthlink.net,invalid> wrote:

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 14:47:27 -0800, rphenry@home.com said...

"Active8" <mTHISREMOVEcolasono@earthlink.net,invalid> wrote in
message
news:MPG.1a5108489600b584989730@news.west.earthlink.net...

I can't remember the man's name that built the only US railroad
from money he raised himself. no govt money involved. It was the
only railroad in the country to ever show a profit.

Do you have a reference to this amazing fact?

It was in a book called "The Book". It's not here. Google Neotech
or try it as a domain name. The book is partly hogwash, but someone
I talked to had heard of this guy. The RR was built across the
north part of the country and may have crossed into Canada. I tried
google on John Hill, and didn't find anything obvious. Not being
sure of his name, I don't know.

Do you know of any Federally subsidized businesses that *do* turn a
profit?

BRs,
Mike

Maybe the benefactor of my home town (Huntington, WV) and founder of
the C&O RR...

Huntington, Collis P. (Potter) 1821 -- 1900
Railway builder; born in Harwinton, Conn. Starting as a peddler, he
became a store owner in Oneonta, N.Y. (1842--49). With the Gold Rush,
he moved to Sacramento, Calif., where he opened a store; taking on
Mark Hopkins, it soon prospered as a mercantile business, Huntington
Huntington went to Washington, D.C., and New York City to arrange for
financing and by 1869 their Central Pacific Railroad was linking with
the Union Pacific in Utah. Known as "Huntington's group," the men
launched more enterprises including the Southern Pacific Railway
(1884), of which Huntington succeeded Stanford as president in 1890.
Huntington remained largely in the East where he ruthlessly lobbied
for his railroad's interests, with little regard for his competitors,
the government, or the public. He extended his own interest to eastern
transportation projects including the Chesapeake & Ohio Railway and
the steamship business, becoming ever more wealthy if disreputable.

...Jim Thompson

Doesn't ring a bell, but I'll wager that he valued his businesses
more than those who use govt money.

The Central Pacific Railway was built with large amounts of governemnt
support. The railway got direct cash payments for every mile of track built
(more in the mountains, and the law was written in a way that defined most
of the CPR as "mountains") plus half the land within 10 miles of the track
(the checkerboard land grant pattersn are still visible in property maps of
the western US).

Active8 · Dec 24, 2003

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 17:31:53 -0700, invalid@invalid.invalid said...

On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 00:25:59 GMT, Active8
mTHISREMOVEcolasono@earthlink.net,invalid> wrote:

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 16:00:32 -0700, invalid@invalid.invalid said...
On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 22:54:03 GMT, Active8
mTHISREMOVEcolasono@earthlink.net,invalid> wrote:

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 14:47:27 -0800, rphenry@home.com said...

"Active8" <mTHISREMOVEcolasono@earthlink.net,invalid> wrote in message
news:MPG.1a5108489600b584989730@news.west.earthlink.net...

I can't remember the man's name that built the only US railroad
from money he raised himself. no govt money involved. It was the
only railroad in the country to ever show a profit.

Do you have a reference to this amazing fact?

It was in a book called "The Book". It's not here. Google Neotech
or try it as a domain name. The book is partly hogwash, but someone
I talked to had heard of this guy. The RR was built across the
north part of the country and may have crossed into Canada. I tried
google on John Hill, and didn't find anything obvious. Not being
sure of his name, I don't know.

Do you know of any Federally subsidized businesses that *do* turn a
profit?

BRs,
Mike

Maybe the benefactor of my home town (Huntington, WV) and founder of
the C&O RR...

Huntington, Collis P. (Potter) 1821 -- 1900
Railway builder; born in Harwinton, Conn. Starting as a peddler, he
became a store owner in Oneonta, N.Y. (1842--49). With the Gold Rush,
he moved to Sacramento, Calif., where he opened a store; taking on
Mark Hopkins, it soon prospered as a mercantile business, Huntington
Huntington went to Washington, D.C., and New York City to arrange for
financing and by 1869 their Central Pacific Railroad was linking with
the Union Pacific in Utah. Known as "Huntington's group," the men
launched more enterprises including the Southern Pacific Railway
(1884), of which Huntington succeeded Stanford as president in 1890.
Huntington remained largely in the East where he ruthlessly lobbied
for his railroad's interests, with little regard for his competitors,
the government, or the public. He extended his own interest to eastern
transportation projects including the Chesapeake & Ohio Railway and
the steamship business, becoming ever more wealthy if disreputable.

...Jim Thompson

Doesn't ring a bell, but I'll wager that he valued his businesses
more than those who use govt money.

I didn't know you were from West "by God". Nice hills and hollers.

Yep. Shame that Senator Byrd keeps it as his personal fiefdom. He
was elected to the Senate in 1958, the same year I graduated from High
School. He's been so good for the state of West Virginia that the
population is less now than it was in 1958 :-(

...Jim Thompson

Does that mean the property values are dropping?

Is Byrd the one who seems out of it? I was thinking McDermott. It
was the Dem that kept bashing GB prior to the war. He was a real
jackass.

Mike

Active8 · Dec 24, 2003

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 21:00:18 -0800, rphenry@home.com said...

"Active8" <mTHISREMOVEcolasono@earthlink.net,invalid> wrote in message
news:MPG.1a529197cac2b6ac989739@news.west.earthlink.net...
On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 14:47:27 -0800, rphenry@home.com said...

"Active8" <mTHISREMOVEcolasono@earthlink.net,invalid> wrote in message
news:MPG.1a5108489600b584989730@news.west.earthlink.net...

I can't remember the man's name that built the only US railroad
from money he raised himself. no govt money involved. It was the
only railroad in the country to ever show a profit.

Do you have a reference to this amazing fact?

It was in a book called "The Book". It's not here. Google Neotech
or try it as a domain name. The book is partly hogwash, but someone
I talked to had heard of this guy. The RR was built across the
north part of the country and may have crossed into Canada. I tried
google on John Hill, and didn't find anything obvious. Not being
sure of his name, I don't know.

Do you know of any Federally subsidized businesses that *do* turn a
profit?

My lack of knowledge on a topic is no proof of your statement.

That wasn't the point. It was just a question.

If it makes you happy, I'll dig and we'll see.

"The Book." by Mark Hamilton. Book III, "Example of a Genius
Evolving Into Neothink" p.81

Reference: "Entrepreneurs Versus the State" by Burton Folsom.

James J. Hill

http://www.mnhs.org/places/sites/jjhh/aboutjames.html

http://www.railserve.com/JJHill.html

According to "The Book" Hill would build a few hundred miles into
the west then sent ageents back to get farmers to move west. In
return, he'd give them free rates to ship their crops back east
until they were settled.

p. 84 -- "From day one, the government-subsidized transcontinental
railroads never, ever turned a profit."

There. So I left out "transcontinental". Show me a govt-subsidized
transcontinental RR that turned a profit back then. Show me one
that turns a profit now.

Mike

Active8 · Dec 24, 2003

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 21:04:39 -0800, rphenry@home.com said...

"Active8" <mTHISREMOVEcolasono@earthlink.net,invalid> wrote in message
news:MPG.1a52a7235cbcd06e989742@news.west.earthlink.net...
On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 16:00:32 -0700, invalid@invalid.invalid said...
On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 22:54:03 GMT, Active8
mTHISREMOVEcolasono@earthlink.net,invalid> wrote:

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 14:47:27 -0800, rphenry@home.com said...

"Active8" <mTHISREMOVEcolasono@earthlink.net,invalid> wrote in
message
news:MPG.1a5108489600b584989730@news.west.earthlink.net...

I can't remember the man's name that built the only US railroad
from money he raised himself. no govt money involved. It was the
only railroad in the country to ever show a profit.

Do you have a reference to this amazing fact?

It was in a book called "The Book". It's not here. Google Neotech
or try it as a domain name. The book is partly hogwash, but someone
I talked to had heard of this guy. The RR was built across the
north part of the country and may have crossed into Canada. I tried
google on John Hill, and didn't find anything obvious. Not being
sure of his name, I don't know.

Do you know of any Federally subsidized businesses that *do* turn a
profit?

BRs,
Mike

Maybe the benefactor of my home town (Huntington, WV) and founder of
the C&O RR...

Huntington, Collis P. (Potter) 1821 -- 1900
Railway builder; born in Harwinton, Conn. Starting as a peddler, he
became a store owner in Oneonta, N.Y. (1842--49). With the Gold Rush,
he moved to Sacramento, Calif., where he opened a store; taking on
Mark Hopkins, it soon prospered as a mercantile business, Huntington
Huntington went to Washington, D.C., and New York City to arrange for
financing and by 1869 their Central Pacific Railroad was linking with
the Union Pacific in Utah. Known as "Huntington's group," the men
launched more enterprises including the Southern Pacific Railway
(1884), of which Huntington succeeded Stanford as president in 1890.
Huntington remained largely in the East where he ruthlessly lobbied
for his railroad's interests, with little regard for his competitors,
the government, or the public. He extended his own interest to eastern
transportation projects including the Chesapeake & Ohio Railway and
the steamship business, becoming ever more wealthy if disreputable.

...Jim Thompson

Doesn't ring a bell, but I'll wager that he valued his businesses
more than those who use govt money.

The Central Pacific Railway was built with large amounts of governemnt
support. The railway got direct cash payments for every mile of track built
(more in the mountains, and the law was written in a way that defined most
of the CPR as "mountains") plus half the land within 10 miles of the track
(the checkerboard land grant pattersn are still visible in property maps of
the western US).

The CPR is also mentioned in "The Book" and the info probably came

from Folsam's book. It was another politician's project. They
convinced the people that the only way to build RRs was with govt
money. The political entrepreneurs got paid by the mile and
"purposely built the longest, most circuitous routes they could
justify so they could get more government money." p. 82

Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun · Dec 24, 2003

In article <MPG.1a529197cac2b6ac989739@news.west.earthlink.net>,
mTHISREMOVEcolasono@earthlink.net mentioned...

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 14:47:27 -0800, rphenry@home.com said...

"Active8" <mTHISREMOVEcolasono@earthlink.net,invalid> wrote in message
news:MPG.1a5108489600b584989730@news.west.earthlink.net...

I can't remember the man's name that built the only US railroad
from money he raised himself. no govt money involved. It was the
only railroad in the country to ever show a profit.

Do you have a reference to this amazing fact?

It was in a book called "The Book". It's not here. Google Neotech
or try it as a domain name. The book is partly hogwash, but someone
I talked to had heard of this guy. The RR was built across the
north part of the country and may have crossed into Canada. I tried
google on John Hill, and didn't find anything obvious. Not being
sure of his name, I don't know.

Do you know of any Federally subsidized businesses that *do* turn a
profit?

I heard on the news that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are now in the
spotlight. Turns out that with all the billions the gummint pours
into them, they don't do much at all to lower the interest rate for
the borrowers. I don't know much about this stuff, but after all the
medicare fraud and other such abuses, I can't say I'd expect much
more. >:-(

As for railroads, you come to LA and you see places like Huntington
Beach and Huntington Park named after Collis Huntington, the railroad
tycoon. http://www.huntington.tierranet.com/bios/collis.htm which is
a decidedly favorably biased account. Then there were other accounts.

And then there's Baldwin Hills, etc., named after "Lucky" Baldwin.
http://www.socalhistory.org/Biographies/baldwin.htm

BRs,
Mike

--
@@F@r@o@m@@O@r@a@n@g@e@@C@o@u@n@t@y@,@@C@a@l@,@@w@h@e@r@e@@
###Got a Question about ELECTRONICS? Check HERE First:###
http://users.pandora.be/educypedia/electronics/databank.htm
My email address is whitelisted. *All* email sent to it
goes directly to the trash unless you add NOSPAM in the
Subject: line with other stuff. alondra101 <at> hotmail.com
Don't be ripped off by the big book dealers. Go to the URL
that will give you a choice and save you money(up to half).
http://www.everybookstore.com You'll be glad you did!
Just when you thought you had all this figured out, the gov't
changed it: http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/binary.html
@@t@h@e@@a@f@f@l@u@e@n@t@@m@e@e@t@@t@h@e@@E@f@f@l@u@e@n@t@@

Richard Henry · Dec 24, 2003

"Active8" <mTHISREMOVEcolasono@earthlink.net,invalid> wrote in message
news:MPG.1a53115ab3dee07f989745@news.west.earthlink.net...

There. So I left out "transcontinental". Show me a govt-subsidized
transcontinental RR that turned a profit back then. Show me one
that turns a profit now.

http://www.up.com/investors/annuals/02annual/finhigh.pdf

Jim Thompson · Dec 24, 2003

On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 07:17:36 GMT, Active8
<mTHISREMOVEcolasono@earthlink.net,invalid> wrote:

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 17:31:53 -0700, invalid@invalid.invalid said...
[snip]
I didn't know you were from West "by God". Nice hills and hollers.

Yep. Shame that Senator Byrd keeps it as his personal fiefdom. He
was elected to the Senate in 1958, the same year I graduated from High
School. He's been so good for the state of West Virginia that the
population is less now than it was in 1958 :-(

...Jim Thompson

Does that mean the property values are dropping?

Yep.

Is Byrd the one who seems out of it? I was thinking McDermott. It
was the Dem that kept bashing GB prior to the war. He was a real
jackass.

Mike

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Active8 · Dec 24, 2003

On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 04:02:04 -0800, rphenry@home.com said...

"Active8" <mTHISREMOVEcolasono@earthlink.net,invalid> wrote in message
news:MPG.1a53115ab3dee07f989745@news.west.earthlink.net...

There. So I left out "transcontinental". Show me a govt-subsidized
transcontinental RR that turned a profit back then. Show me one
that turns a profit now.

http://www.up.com/investors/annuals/02annual/finhigh.pdf

I checked that site and GOA and can't find any mention of govt

subsidies except where Amtrak is concerned and of course the fact
that the RR was built with the help of subsidies.

OT (US CITIZENS ONLY): S877 Can Spam Law

Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun

Guest

Ross Matheson

Guest

Active8

Guest

Frank Bemelman

Guest

Active8

Guest

Richard Henry

Guest

Active8

Guest

Jim Thompson

Guest

Active8

Guest

Dave VanHorn

Guest

Jim Thompson

Guest

Richard Henry

Guest

Richard Henry

Guest

Active8

Guest

Active8

Guest

Active8

Guest

Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun

Guest

Richard Henry

Guest

Jim Thompson

Guest

Active8

Guest

Log in

Welcome to EDABoard.com

Sponsor