OT: China Cuts E-vehicle Subsidies

On Monday, April 22, 2019 at 8:59:23 AM UTC-4, tra...@optonline.net wrote:

On Monday, April 22, 2019 at 12:16:13 AM UTC-4, gnuarm.de...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sunday, April 21, 2019 at 4:31:27 PM UTC-4, tra...@optonline.net wrote:
On Saturday, April 20, 2019 at 5:18:50 PM UTC-4, gnuarm.de...@gmail.com wrote:
On Saturday, April 20, 2019 at 4:47:38 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
On 4/20/19 3:58 PM, gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com wrote:

Longest was in 1985 during Hurricane Gloria, about three days, I have a
vague memory of it. The most recent was last April after an unusually
strong late season noreaster with 90 mph wind gusts, it was out for just
a little more maybe 26 hrs.

The grid around here seems to be pretty well-maintained and even large
blizzards have trouble knocking it out for any significant length of time.

Regardless, events like this don't catch us unaware. With a fully charged EV you can get safely away easily. People just like to spread FUD about things they don't understand.


Right, hurricanes don't just pop up out of nowhere and knock the grid
out before you know what's happened in the 21st century.

AFAIK all current EVs and plug-in hybrids for sale can do a "Level 1"
fallback-fallback 120 volt 8 amp charge that more-or-less any regular
outlet connected to any home or business wiring system should be able to
support with little stress, and charge up something like a Model 3 to
full range in prolly 50 hours or so.

Even a million of them plugged in and charging at that rate in a certain
region prepping for a possible evacuation wont stress the grid.

About right. 120 volts, 12 amps and more like 60-70 hours if starting near zero charge. It's around 3 to 4 miles per hour of charging depending on the model of car. Model 3s are more like 4 miles per hour. So an overnight gives you around 50 miles.

Most people who have an EV install a 240 volt connection and can get a full charge overnight, just like a level 2 charger at a hotel or other facility.

Charging issues are overstated usually. In an emergency you need to be prepared just like in an ICE. Once the gas stations run out of fuel a gas car isn't going anywhere either. In many situations it will be easier to get electricity than gas.


Electricity that, per your calculation takes 3 days to fully charge the car
and then it goes 175 miles. I can put gas that will do twice that into
a car in 10 minutes. They are good for a second car, but only if you have
a real car for when you need it.

Your math is faulty. Again, perhaps you should just not live in an area prone to evacuations.


It's not my math, it's YOURS. You posted this, or did someone hack
your account?

I'm sorry if the math confuses you so. I may have posted those numbers, but you need to be able to comprehend the context if you want to apply math.


> "About right. 120 volts, 12 amps and more like 60-70 hours if starting near zero charge."

Yes, and what was the context? Try actually reading what people write rather than what you want to see.

Evacuations are not the only issue. Any incident where you need to drive
your car somewhere UNEXPECTEDLY is a potential problem. Your wife has
an accident, your EV isn't charged.

There's the problem. You keep assuming the car isn't charged. That's a huge difference between an ICE and an EV. The ICE is reliant on being driven to a fueling station to get fuel. An EV can be charged nearly anywhere. When I have a wife, I will keep my EV plugged in at all hours of the day and night and will never be short on fuel. As it is, I am away from home and still keep more than enough fuel in the car to reach any hospital in the are. At home I keep enough fuel in the tank to reach chargers and hospitals..

You get a call that your vacation
house has a water leak in the basement. You have a rental property,
renters are there and they say there is a problem. Your mother just
had a heart attack. In all of those, with a gas car, even if the tank
is near empty, I just get in it, start out and I can have it full in
10 mins and I have an unlimited limited range. If you rely on only
an EV, in any of those
situations, you're at a big disadvantage. And if you're away from
home when that happens, 125 miles off to nowhere, it all just gets worse.

Not correct for the reasons I've given several times in this thread.

--

Rick C.

--++ Get a 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

On Monday, April 22, 2019 at 12:29:35 AM UTC-4, gnuarm.de...@gmail.com wrote:

On Sunday, April 21, 2019 at 5:08:21 PM UTC-4, tra...@optonline.net wrote:
On Saturday, April 20, 2019 at 3:56:44 PM UTC-4, gnuarm.de...@gmail.com wrote:
On Saturday, April 20, 2019 at 2:36:50 PM UTC-4, tra...@optonline.net wrote:
On Saturday, April 20, 2019 at 1:15:30 PM UTC-4, Michael Terrell wrote:

Sure you can. You've never seen a mass evacuation, have you? it isn't anywhere near a normal traffic load. The traffic is bumper to bumper, toll roads are turned off, and even the southbound lanes of I-75 are used for Northbound traffic. You are clueless as to the conditions involved. Add to the other problems, but South Florida is full of liberal idiots who don't make any preparations for emergencies. They are like the people who died during Katrina, trapped in their attics because the refused to leave until it was too late.

That's for sure. Anyone that thinks an electric vehicle isn't at a severe
disadvantage in that situation is in denial.

You are only showing your ignorance.

I say you're just drinking your own bathwater and denying reality.


EV charging is mostly done at home. If Mike had an EV he could be well into Georgia before he needed to charge again and there are many opportunities for that along the way. There are lots of places to charge while you stop for a meal.

Sure, and I bet planning your trip so you happen to be "someplace" to eat
while you can charge is a real advantage. Pick your food not by what you
want to eat, but by who has a fast charger. And if they don't have a fast
charger, plugging it in during a food stop ain't worth spit.


How does this typically evolve? Two days out, the forecast may be
for the hurricane to hit 200 miles from your ares. So, you're not planning
to evacuate, you're going to stay. You spend two days getting supplies
boarding up the house, making trips to HD, going to work. Who in their
right mind would want a car where they have to be concerned about how much charge it has? With a gas car, in every one of these situations I've known about or experienced, when there was plenty of warning you fill the car
up. Now I can put 100 miles, 200 miles on a gas car in the period before
it hits and still have good range.

You can make of any absurd scenario you wish. I'm sure anyone can make up situations that are worst case for many things. Whatever.

I charge my car, I drive my car. It works just fine. Actually, better than fine. Now that I am driving a good car

This EV is the first good car you've ever had? Or by good do you mean
one that you believe it's good for the environment?



and stop every three or so hours, I am much more rested and comfortable when I get to where I'm going.

Well, that's swell if that's what you like. BTW, I can do that with a gas
engine car too, I have the choice, I'm not forced to change my life for
a car.




Sitting in the same seat for eight hours with few and short breaks is no way to drive long distances.

And this isn't limited to hurricanes, which come with predictions. Next
time there is some situation in the news where people were in some unexpected
emergency, see if you'd rather be in a gas car or an electric. Somebody has
to be driven to the hospital, with no warning. With a gas car, very likely
even if the car doesn't have enough gas to make the trip, you can pull into
a gas station and in 10 mins, have a full tank. You've taken your EV for
a long trip, the battery is low. You get a call, your mother had a stroke
and is in the hospital that's 200 miles away. Would you rather have an
EV or gas? The gas car has no significant advantage?

Why would my battery be low? I usually charge before reaching home on trips.

Well, that's just swell. Stop on the way home to charge. How many
hours does that add to the trip?



I like to pull into my driveway with at least 200 miles on the range. That's why I don't often need to charge my car for three days after reaching home.

So you don't have it fully charged when it's home, yet another limitation.

If I got such a call I would get there fine

Maybe not. I can get to an unexpected spot 200, 300, 400, 500 miles
just driving straight. I can be there in 3 to 8 hours. You could get
there fine in a couple days, but maybe your mother is dead by then
or the house is flooded.


and if it were a bit over 200 miles I would stop and get a 10 minute charge to make sure I reach my destination, not unlike stopping for gas.

It's a lot different than gas. With a ten minute stop, I get 400 miles,
which is more than you ever have. How many more miles do you get with
your 10 min stop?

This is why I say you are ignorant of EVs... because you are. You do understand what "ignorant" means, right? It means you don't know something. You don't know much about EVs.

I know that all that I posted is true. And I know that dealing with your
EV nuts is near impossible, because it's not about the facts, it's about
how wonderful your toy is. And BTW, we haven't even touched on the
economics. If the rest of the taxpayers were not heavily subsidizing
EVs, most of them would never be sold, because they can't compete.

You listened to the broadcast I take it? Read the transcript. Like Yogi Berra, Rush "really didn’t say everything I said." Next time don't get so worked up and listen.

--

Rick C.

--+- Get a 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Here is the transcript for you, exactly as I remembered it:

It was Rush on a Tuesday, about 5 days before the Cat 5 hurricane had
a forecast track showing it hitting FL and people were taking steps
to prepare.

https://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2017/09/05/my-analysis-of-the-hurricane-irma-panic/

I’m constantly on guard against it. I’ve lived here since 1997, and I have developed a system that I trust, my own analysis of the data. And I’m not a meteorologist. I’m not gonna tell you what mine is because I don’t want to be misinterpreted as giving you a forecast. Well, I’m tempted to, though, because I’ve been exactly right since last Friday. I am tempted to tell you. ‘Cause I had people asking me back then. I’m tempted to tell you. But my better judgment says don’t go there.

(So, Rush claims he has his own, better system of predicting where hurricanes
will hit. How pompous and stupid is that?)



My prediction of where it was gonna go was not shown on but two or three outlying models. The point is, we still don’t know where it’s gonna go. The Sunday impact in south Florida is to be Sunday, so that’s six days, five days. They still can’t tell us. And not that they should be able to. I mean, these things, there’s too many variables, atmospheric conditions, sea surface temperatures, and unknown. There’s just no way to predict where these storms are gonna go until probably the day before. (interruption) What do you mean, we’re sitting ducks? What, are you in Key West? You’re not a sitting deck unless you’re in Key West. What do you mean? Why are you a sitting duck? What are you talking about?

(That's more BS, the target area probabilities continually narrow and
you don't need to know exactly where it's going to hit to know that the
area where you are is likely to be severely affected. The rant about
Key West, apparently he's suggesting only KW is a "sitting duck",
so I guess the rest of FL is OK)

My point, you’re not a sitting duck. You could be a sitting duck tonight or tomorrow depending on what they do with the track. This is another thing. At the current speed, we know the day is Sunday. Saturday night, Sunday morning, we know that. Unless something happens to slow it down like happened with Harvey. Once it came to shore, it stopped and that’s why Houston flooded. And nobody predicted it. Well, they did predict it was gonna stop. The models did predict that once it came ashore it was gonna stop for a while. They knew that. But they didn’t know this a week in advance. They knew it days in advance.

(Well, yeah, nobody knows FOR SURE, until it hits. But his listeners
don't have a G4 waiting and probably many don't have other things they
think they might need. Most don't have Rush's generator either)


Another thing I’ve found, folks, these storms, once they actually hit, are never as strong as they’re reported.

(That's quite amazing and irresponsible, New Orleans is a good example.
Oh and what did hypocrite Rush say about that one? Did he say, well what
can you do, the hurricane forecasts are all wrong, they are politically
biased? No, he blamed Ray NAgin for not taking proper steps based on the
forecasts, the major one being that he should have evacuated NO earlier,
not at the last minute)




RUSH: To wrap up the hurricane business, folks, is simply that I wish that not everything that involved news had become corrupted and politicized, but it just has. And I’m just sharing all this with you ’cause this is the way I look at this stuff now, and I see people being led to panic. I see people being led to hoarding. I see all of this being, if not created, encouraged. And it’s extremely frustrating. Time will tell, as it always does, on these storms. And where it goes and how much damage it causes and what its eventual strength actually is.

(Why is it so frustrating for Rush? Why does it bother him at all?
Isn't this simply free market capitalism? He claims there is some unholy
alliance or conspiracy between global warming scientists, hurricane
forecaster, the media?)



They’re reacting to what they’re seeing. And I’m just telling you that there’s a vested interest on the part of a lot of people. Folks, the hurricane doesn’t even need to strike land. The hurricane doesn’t even need to hit in order to for the agenda to be advanced. All they have to do is create the panic and then show you that graphic of this giant red blob that, “Oh, my God, is gonna eat the country, you see this thing, is horrible, Mabel, look at how big…” And they create the fear and panic after they’ve already told everybody climate change is responsible for these bigger and more frequent storms.


(And what happened in NO?) Obviously there wasn't panic or anything approaching
it, Ray Nagin and the rest took Rush's approach of "can't be that bad, let's
wait and see). Unfortunately the poor blacks in NO didn't have a G4.


Look, the program has to go on. I can sit here and say, “You know what, I’m gonna stay, I’m gonna ride this out.” And I would if it weren’t for the fact that we’re gonna lose electricity. If we lose electricity, then there’s no way we can get the show done outta here. What are you laughing at in there? You think I’m making this up? I’m just telling you that we have a generator, but I don’t want to give away how it’s fueled. That’s a security breach.

(And here he encourages just staying, because the worst that's going to
happen is you lose electricity.
What Rush didn't tell people was that he had his G4 all fueled up and ready
to leave on short notice. How many of his listeners had that luxury?

 

On Monday, April 22, 2019 at 9:44:07 AM UTC-4, tra...@optonline.net wrote:

On Monday, April 22, 2019 at 12:29:35 AM UTC-4, gnuarm.de...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sunday, April 21, 2019 at 5:08:21 PM UTC-4, tra...@optonline.net wrote:
On Saturday, April 20, 2019 at 3:56:44 PM UTC-4, gnuarm.de...@gmail.com wrote:
On Saturday, April 20, 2019 at 2:36:50 PM UTC-4, tra...@optonline.net wrote:
On Saturday, April 20, 2019 at 1:15:30 PM UTC-4, Michael Terrell wrote:

Sure you can. You've never seen a mass evacuation, have you? it isn't anywhere near a normal traffic load. The traffic is bumper to bumper, toll roads are turned off, and even the southbound lanes of I-75 are used for Northbound traffic. You are clueless as to the conditions involved. Add to the other problems, but South Florida is full of liberal idiots who don't make any preparations for emergencies. They are like the people who died during Katrina, trapped in their attics because the refused to leave until it was too late.

That's for sure. Anyone that thinks an electric vehicle isn't at a severe
disadvantage in that situation is in denial.

You are only showing your ignorance.

I say you're just drinking your own bathwater and denying reality.


EV charging is mostly done at home. If Mike had an EV he could be well into Georgia before he needed to charge again and there are many opportunities for that along the way. There are lots of places to charge while you stop for a meal.

Sure, and I bet planning your trip so you happen to be "someplace" to eat
while you can charge is a real advantage. Pick your food not by what you
want to eat, but by who has a fast charger. And if they don't have a fast
charger, plugging it in during a food stop ain't worth spit.


How does this typically evolve? Two days out, the forecast may be
for the hurricane to hit 200 miles from your ares. So, you're not planning
to evacuate, you're going to stay. You spend two days getting supplies
boarding up the house, making trips to HD, going to work. Who in their
right mind would want a car where they have to be concerned about how much charge it has? With a gas car, in every one of these situations I've known about or experienced, when there was plenty of warning you fill the car
up. Now I can put 100 miles, 200 miles on a gas car in the period before
it hits and still have good range.

You can make of any absurd scenario you wish. I'm sure anyone can make up situations that are worst case for many things. Whatever.

I charge my car, I drive my car. It works just fine. Actually, better than fine. Now that I am driving a good car

This EV is the first good car you've ever had? Or by good do you mean
one that you believe it's good for the environment?



and stop every three or so hours, I am much more rested and comfortable when I get to where I'm going.

Well, that's swell if that's what you like. BTW, I can do that with a gas
engine car too, I have the choice, I'm not forced to change my life for
a car.




Sitting in the same seat for eight hours with few and short breaks is no way to drive long distances.


And this isn't limited to hurricanes, which come with predictions. Next
time there is some situation in the news where people were in some unexpected
emergency, see if you'd rather be in a gas car or an electric. Somebody has
to be driven to the hospital, with no warning. With a gas car, very likely
even if the car doesn't have enough gas to make the trip, you can pull into
a gas station and in 10 mins, have a full tank. You've taken your EV for
a long trip, the battery is low. You get a call, your mother had a stroke
and is in the hospital that's 200 miles away. Would you rather have an
EV or gas? The gas car has no significant advantage?

Why would my battery be low? I usually charge before reaching home on trips.

Well, that's just swell. Stop on the way home to charge. How many
hours does that add to the trip?



I like to pull into my driveway with at least 200 miles on the range. That's why I don't often need to charge my car for three days after reaching home.

So you don't have it fully charged when it's home, yet another limitation..


If I got such a call I would get there fine

Maybe not. I can get to an unexpected spot 200, 300, 400, 500 miles
just driving straight. I can be there in 3 to 8 hours. You could get
there fine in a couple days, but maybe your mother is dead by then
or the house is flooded.


and if it were a bit over 200 miles I would stop and get a 10 minute charge to make sure I reach my destination, not unlike stopping for gas.

It's a lot different than gas. With a ten minute stop, I get 400 miles,
which is more than you ever have. How many more miles do you get with
your 10 min stop?






This is why I say you are ignorant of EVs... because you are. You do understand what "ignorant" means, right? It means you don't know something. You don't know much about EVs.

I know that all that I posted is true. And I know that dealing with your
EV nuts is near impossible, because it's not about the facts, it's about
how wonderful your toy is. And BTW, we haven't even touched on the
economics. If the rest of the taxpayers were not heavily subsidizing
EVs, most of them would never be sold, because they can't compete.


You listened to the broadcast I take it? Read the transcript. Like Yogi Berra, Rush "really didn’t say everything I said." Next time don't get so worked up and listen.

--

Rick C.

--+- Get a 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209



Here is the transcript for you, exactly as I remembered it:

It was Rush on a Tuesday, about 5 days before the Cat 5 hurricane had
a forecast track showing it hitting FL and people were taking steps
to prepare.

https://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2017/09/05/my-analysis-of-the-hurricane-irma-panic/

I’m constantly on guard against it. I’ve lived here since 1997, and I have developed a system that I trust, my own analysis of the data. And I’m not a meteorologist. I’m not gonna tell you what mine is because I don’t want to be misinterpreted as giving you a forecast. Well, I’m tempted to, though, because I’ve been exactly right since last Friday. I am tempted to tell you. ‘Cause I had people asking me back then. I’m tempted to tell you. But my better judgment says don’t go there.

(So, Rush claims he has his own, better system of predicting where hurricanes
will hit. How pompous and stupid is that?)



My prediction of where it was gonna go was not shown on but two or three outlying models. The point is, we still don’t know where it’s gonna go. The Sunday impact in south Florida is to be Sunday, so that’s six days, five days. They still can’t tell us. And not that they should be able to. I mean, these things, there’s too many variables, atmospheric conditions, sea surface temperatures, and unknown. There’s just no way to predict where these storms are gonna go until probably the day before. (interruption) What do you mean, we’re sitting ducks? What, are you in Key West? You’re not a sitting deck unless you’re in Key West. What do you mean? Why are you a sitting duck? What are you talking about?

(That's more BS, the target area probabilities continually narrow and
you don't need to know exactly where it's going to hit to know that the
area where you are is likely to be severely affected. The rant about
Key West, apparently he's suggesting only KW is a "sitting duck",
so I guess the rest of FL is OK)

My point, you’re not a sitting duck. You could be a sitting duck tonight or tomorrow depending on what they do with the track. This is another thing. At the current speed, we know the day is Sunday. Saturday night, Sunday morning, we know that. Unless something happens to slow it down like happened with Harvey. Once it came to shore, it stopped and that’s why Houston flooded. And nobody predicted it. Well, they did predict it was gonna stop. The models did predict that once it came ashore it was gonna stop for a while. They knew that. But they didn’t know this a week in advance. They knew it days in advance.

(Well, yeah, nobody knows FOR SURE, until it hits. But his listeners
don't have a G4 waiting and probably many don't have other things they
think they might need. Most don't have Rush's generator either)


Another thing I’ve found, folks, these storms, once they actually hit, are never as strong as they’re reported.

(That's quite amazing and irresponsible, New Orleans is a good example.
Oh and what did hypocrite Rush say about that one? Did he say, well what
can you do, the hurricane forecasts are all wrong, they are politically
biased? No, he blamed Ray NAgin for not taking proper steps based on the
forecasts, the major one being that he should have evacuated NO earlier,
not at the last minute)




RUSH: To wrap up the hurricane business, folks, is simply that I wish that not everything that involved news had become corrupted and politicized, but it just has. And I’m just sharing all this with you ’cause this is the way I look at this stuff now, and I see people being led to panic. I see people being led to hoarding. I see all of this being, if not created, encouraged. And it’s extremely frustrating. Time will tell, as it always does, on these storms. And where it goes and how much damage it causes and what its eventual strength actually is.

(Why is it so frustrating for Rush? Why does it bother him at all?
Isn't this simply free market capitalism? He claims there is some unholy
alliance or conspiracy between global warming scientists, hurricane
forecaster, the media?)



They’re reacting to what they’re seeing. And I’m just telling you that there’s a vested interest on the part of a lot of people. Folks, the hurricane doesn’t even need to strike land. The hurricane doesn’t even need to hit in order to for the agenda to be advanced. All they have to do is create the panic and then show you that graphic of this giant red blob that, “Oh, my God, is gonna eat the country, you see this thing, is horrible, Mabel, look at how big…” And they create the fear and panic after they’ve already told everybody climate change is responsible for these bigger and more frequent storms.


(And what happened in NO?) Obviously there wasn't panic or anything approaching
it, Ray Nagin and the rest took Rush's approach of "can't be that bad, let's
wait and see). Unfortunately the poor blacks in NO didn't have a G4.


Look, the program has to go on. I can sit here and say, “You know what, I’m gonna stay, I’m gonna ride this out.” And I would if it weren’t for the fact that we’re gonna lose electricity. If we lose electricity, then there’s no way we can get the show done outta here. What are you laughing at in there? You think I’m making this up? I’m just telling you that we have a generator, but I don’t want to give away how it’s fueled. That’s a security breach.

(And here he encourages just staying, because the worst that's going to
happen is you lose electricity.
What Rush didn't tell people was that he had his G4 all fueled up and ready
to leave on short notice. How many of his listeners had that luxury?

Dude, you are so far out on the limb away from reality I'm not going to continue this conversation. It is pointless. You make up scenarios that put EVs in the worse possible light while ignoring the scenarios where an EV will perform better than an ICE without acknowledging all these scenarios are very, very unlikely and require someone to be very ignorant of their situation.

Your analysis of Rush's transcript shows all his BS, but it never shows the smoking gun of Rush telling people they are "fools" for evacuating. Then you conflate the Florida hurricane with Katrina for no apparent reason.

There is zero point in trying to have a rational discussion with you. OK?

--

Rick C.

-+-- Get a 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

On Monday, April 22, 2019 at 9:28:05 AM UTC-4, gnuarm.de...@gmail.com wrote:

On Monday, April 22, 2019 at 8:59:23 AM UTC-4, tra...@optonline.net wrote:
On Monday, April 22, 2019 at 12:16:13 AM UTC-4, gnuarm.de...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sunday, April 21, 2019 at 4:31:27 PM UTC-4, tra...@optonline.net wrote:
On Saturday, April 20, 2019 at 5:18:50 PM UTC-4, gnuarm.de...@gmail..com wrote:
On Saturday, April 20, 2019 at 4:47:38 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
On 4/20/19 3:58 PM, gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com wrote:

Longest was in 1985 during Hurricane Gloria, about three days, I have a
vague memory of it. The most recent was last April after an unusually
strong late season noreaster with 90 mph wind gusts, it was out for just
a little more maybe 26 hrs.

The grid around here seems to be pretty well-maintained and even large
blizzards have trouble knocking it out for any significant length of time.

Regardless, events like this don't catch us unaware. With a fully charged EV you can get safely away easily. People just like to spread FUD about things they don't understand.


Right, hurricanes don't just pop up out of nowhere and knock the grid
out before you know what's happened in the 21st century.

AFAIK all current EVs and plug-in hybrids for sale can do a "Level 1"
fallback-fallback 120 volt 8 amp charge that more-or-less any regular
outlet connected to any home or business wiring system should be able to
support with little stress, and charge up something like a Model 3 to
full range in prolly 50 hours or so.

Even a million of them plugged in and charging at that rate in a certain
region prepping for a possible evacuation wont stress the grid.

About right. 120 volts, 12 amps and more like 60-70 hours if starting near zero charge. It's around 3 to 4 miles per hour of charging depending on the model of car. Model 3s are more like 4 miles per hour. So an overnight gives you around 50 miles.

Most people who have an EV install a 240 volt connection and can get a full charge overnight, just like a level 2 charger at a hotel or other facility.

Charging issues are overstated usually. In an emergency you need to be prepared just like in an ICE. Once the gas stations run out of fuel a gas car isn't going anywhere either. In many situations it will be easier to get electricity than gas.


Electricity that, per your calculation takes 3 days to fully charge the car
and then it goes 175 miles. I can put gas that will do twice that into
a car in 10 minutes. They are good for a second car, but only if you have
a real car for when you need it.

Your math is faulty. Again, perhaps you should just not live in an area prone to evacuations.


It's not my math, it's YOURS. You posted this, or did someone hack
your account?

I'm sorry if the math confuses you so. I may have posted those numbers, but you need to be able to comprehend the context if you want to apply math..


"About right. 120 volts, 12 amps and more like 60-70 hours if starting near zero charge."

Yes, and what was the context? Try actually reading what people write rather than what you want to see.

How about you try addressing the actual numbers and issue, instead of
more vague redirection BS? Those were YOUR numbers, that you posted,
for charging an EV, not mine. Did you not post that? That it takes
60 to 70 hours to charge from near zero, using 120V, 12A? What
"math" is involved?

Evacuations are not the only issue. Any incident where you need to drive
your car somewhere UNEXPECTEDLY is a potential problem. Your wife has
an accident, your EV isn't charged.

There's the problem. You keep assuming the car isn't charged.

Yes, silly me. I want to be prepared for scenarios where I might
have an unexpected, urgent need to go somewhere, so I assume that
an EV might not be charged and consider what happens then. And
how unreasonable is that? You drive somewhere that results in
the battery being low. You get a call for some important need to
drive 200 miles, be it a medical emergency, something to do with
work, etc. With a gas car, I'm good to go. You're screwed.
But heh, I'm silly for considering that.




> That's a huge difference between an ICE and an EV. The ICE is reliant on being driven to a fueling station to get fuel.

It's also nearly impossible to run out of fuel, unless you're an idiot.
And gas stations are pretty much everywhere. But thanks for bringing
up another good point. And an EV is reliant
on getting to a place to plug it in. So, if you run an EV out in
the middle of nowhere along a road, then what? With a gas car,
you can hitch a ride or walk to a gas station, get a can of gas.
Or you can call for road service and they bring a can of gas.
You're on your way. And back at the gas station, bingo, ten
minutes you have 400 mile range. What do they do with an EV?
Call a tow truck and get towed somewhere to plug in, I presume.
That must be an interesting calculation. Let's see, do we try
farmer John's maybe he'll let me put the car there to charge,
he's 2 miles away. Or do we go to a gas station and plug in
there? Or how much does the tow cost to a real charging station,
wherever in bumfuck that might be, if one even exists.



> An EV can be charged nearly anywhere.

Not quickly, it can't. In ten minutes at a gas station, I have a
400 mile range. What's your range after ten minutes in a 15A
outlet? Backing out from your stated data, not very much.



> When I have a wife, I will keep my EV plugged in at all hours of the day and night and will never be short on fuel.

I'm sure she'll appreciate being given that chore.



>As it is, I am away from home and still keep more than enough fuel in the car to reach any hospital in the are. At home I keep enough fuel in >the tank to reach chargers and hospitals.

Sure, at home, while taking all the necessary steps to keep it full.
Even then, it's not true. You get back from a long drive, the
car is low. Now an unexpected event happens and you need to go
on another long drive, immediately. You're hosed.
With my car, I could have two gallons left, drive to a gas station,
and ten minutes later I have a 400 mile range.

You get a call that your vacation
house has a water leak in the basement. You have a rental property,
renters are there and they say there is a problem. Your mother just
had a heart attack. In all of those, with a gas car, even if the tank
is near empty, I just get in it, start out and I can have it full in
10 mins and I have an unlimited limited range. If you rely on only
an EV, in any of those
situations, you're at a big disadvantage. And if you're away from
home when that happens, 125 miles off to nowhere, it all just gets worse.

Not correct for the reasons I've given several times in this thread.

Of course it's all absolutely correct and I just went through it again
for you. You're just so emotionally attached to your dream car,
for whatever reason, that you can't acknowledged the very obvious
limitations.

--

Rick C.

--++ Get a 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

trader4@optonline.net wrote in news:eae132fd-f129-4e36-b4da-
182fe6cd8995@googlegroups.com:

You make up scenarios that put EVs in the worse possible light

Isn't that what one does, when considering the possibilities?

Damn!... And here I was hoping that you would run right out and buy
an old metal case two prong drill motor and grab it while standing on a
wet concrete floor barefoot with it plugged in backwards.

 

On Monday, April 22, 2019 at 10:12:15 AM UTC-4, gnuarm.de...@gmail.com wrote:

Dude, you are so far out on the limb away from reality I'm not going to continue this conversation. It is pointless.

I'm so disappointed. I was looking forward to you explaing this that you
posted and how I misquoted it when I said if you have an EV that's
about out, it can take 3 days to charge it.


"About right. 120 volts, 12 amps and more like 60-70 hours if starting near zero charge."

Winfield posted this:

"My Prius Prime: 5 to 5.5 miles per hour of 12A charge"

That wrong too?



You make up scenarios that put EVs in the worse possible light

Isn't that what one does, when considering the possibilities? I don't
want a car where if it's been used to the end of it's charge range
and I have an unexpected need to go somewhere, I'm SCREWED. And it's
not like this is some 5 sigma event, it happens to people. I thought
engineers and the like were in this group? Do we design for just
sunny days? Or do we design for worst case? With a range of only
a couple hundred miles, it's not at all unexpected that there will
be times when that car is mostly discharged. Go on a long trip
somewhere to someplace rural, battery is near empty. Now what?
Oh yeah, charge it at the vacation rental you're using and per
your post:

"About right. 120 volts, 12 amps and more like 60-70 hours if starting near zero charge."

Seems to me you have a window of being unable to take an emergency drive
back home. And I don't see that as unrealistic at all.





while ignoring the scenarios where an EV will perform better than an ICE without acknowledging all these scenarios are very, very unlikely and require >someone to be very ignorant of their situation.

About the only scenario where I see EVs performing better is maybe 0-60
acceleration in the hot models. Cost wise, at best, it's a wash.
Higher upfront cost offset by cheaper fuel. And it's only a wash because
EVs are heavily subsidized.

Your analysis of Rush's transcript shows all his BS, but it never shows the smoking gun of Rush telling people they are "fools" for evacuating.

He didn't flat out say it, but he sure implied it.



Then you conflate the Florida hurricane with Katrina for no apparent reason.
>

Wooosh! I clearly explained the point. Rush in his broadcast under
discussion here was dismissing forecasts
as being overblown because the forecasters are trying to sell global warming,
inaccurate, that they can't tell you where it will hit until 24 hours before,
that the media always makes it sound worse than it is. He also said he
would STAY where he was, if it were not for that he might lose electric
that he needs for his broadcast, etc. Yet after Katrina he was blaming
Ray NAgin for not taking the forecasts, which were accurate, seriously and
not evacuating sooner, not being properly prepared, etc. We call that
hypocrisy.

There is zero point in trying to have a rational discussion with you. OK?

You said that at the beginning of your post too, yet here you are.
What have I said here that is untrue or irrational? Typical sequence,
I respond to YOUR numbers, use your numbers and then you say somehow
my math is wrong? It's out of context? Those were your charging
numbers. Talk about irrational.

 

[bitrex]

On 4/22/19 11:31 AM, trader4@optonline.net wrote:

You make up scenarios that put EVs in the worse possible light

Isn't that what one does, when considering the possibilities? I don't
want a car where if it's been used to the end of it's charge range
and I have an unexpected need to go somewhere, I'm SCREWED. And it's
not like this is some 5 sigma event, it happens to people. I thought
engineers and the like were in this group? Do we design for just
sunny days? Or do we design for worst case? With a range of only
a couple hundred miles, it's not at all unexpected that there will
be times when that car is mostly discharged. Go on a long trip
somewhere to someplace rural, battery is near empty. Now what?

Part of being a successful engineer is, IMO, recognizing that not all
aspects of life are engineering problems to be "solved."

The "curse of dimensionality" exists when making choices for one's
personal life as well and one can always think up worst-case scenarios
for just about anything that can be sufficient reason to not make a
certain purchase or choose a particular choice of action.

That is to say there's a fine line between being actually-prudent and
just being stodgy. Being prudent can save you a lot of pain. Being
stodgy can cause you to compromise the enjoyment of things you could do
on the fear of might-bes.

The payoff ideally being that you will have more enjoyment on average in
life vs. some percentage chance that, at some point, you will be up shit
creek without a paddle due to some decision you made which in hindsight
was not appropriate to the unfortunate situation you currently find
yourself in.

Unfortunate reality of the real world is that there are going to
probably be at least a few shit-creek times in your life where you don't
have the one thing you need or didn't do the one thing you should have
done. It's probably statistically unavoidable you can only handicap it.
But it doesn't make sense to run one's life around it.

 

[bitrex]

On 4/23/19 6:21 PM, bitrex wrote:

On 4/22/19 11:31 AM, trader4@optonline.net wrote:

  You make up scenarios that put EVs in the worse possible light

Isn't that what one does, when considering the possibilities?  I don't
want a car where if it's been used to the end of it's charge range
and I have an unexpected need to go somewhere, I'm SCREWED.  And it's
not like this is some 5 sigma event, it happens to people.  I thought
engineers and the like were in this group?  Do we design for just
sunny days?  Or do we design for worst case?  With a range of only
a couple hundred miles, it's not at all unexpected that there will
be times when that car is mostly discharged.  Go on a long trip
somewhere to someplace rural, battery is near empty.  Now what?

Part of being a successful engineer is, IMO, recognizing that not all
aspects of life are engineering problems to be "solved."

The "curse of dimensionality" exists when making choices for one's
personal life as well and one can always think up worst-case scenarios
for just about anything that can be sufficient reason to not make a
certain purchase or choose a particular choice of action.

That is to say trying to always hit the optimum balance in every
personal-life decision you make, is an impossible standard. So don't try.

 

[bitrex]

On 4/23/19 6:24 PM, bitrex wrote:

On 4/23/19 6:21 PM, bitrex wrote:
On 4/22/19 11:31 AM, trader4@optonline.net wrote:

  You make up scenarios that put EVs in the worse possible light

Isn't that what one does, when considering the possibilities?  I don't
want a car where if it's been used to the end of it's charge range
and I have an unexpected need to go somewhere, I'm SCREWED.  And it's
not like this is some 5 sigma event, it happens to people.  I thought
engineers and the like were in this group?  Do we design for just
sunny days?  Or do we design for worst case?  With a range of only
a couple hundred miles, it's not at all unexpected that there will
be times when that car is mostly discharged.  Go on a long trip
somewhere to someplace rural, battery is near empty.  Now what?

Part of being a successful engineer is, IMO, recognizing that not all
aspects of life are engineering problems to be "solved."

The "curse of dimensionality" exists when making choices for one's
personal life as well and one can always think up worst-case scenarios
for just about anything that can be sufficient reason to not make a
certain purchase or choose a particular choice of action.

That is to say trying to always hit the optimum balance in every
personal-life decision you make, is an impossible standard. So don't try.

Rephrase: try, but do the best you can with the information you have in
a reasonable amount of time and then don't fret the decision too much.

 

On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 at 6:21:56 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:

On 4/22/19 11:31 AM, trader4@optonline.net wrote:

You make up scenarios that put EVs in the worse possible light

Isn't that what one does, when considering the possibilities? I don't
want a car where if it's been used to the end of it's charge range
and I have an unexpected need to go somewhere, I'm SCREWED. And it's
not like this is some 5 sigma event, it happens to people. I thought
engineers and the like were in this group? Do we design for just
sunny days? Or do we design for worst case? With a range of only
a couple hundred miles, it's not at all unexpected that there will
be times when that car is mostly discharged. Go on a long trip
somewhere to someplace rural, battery is near empty. Now what?

Part of being a successful engineer is, IMO, recognizing that not all
aspects of life are engineering problems to be "solved."

The "curse of dimensionality" exists when making choices for one's
personal life as well and one can always think up worst-case scenarios
for just about anything that can be sufficient reason to not make a
certain purchase or choose a particular choice of action.

That is to say there's a fine line between being actually-prudent and
just being stodgy. Being prudent can save you a lot of pain. Being
stodgy can cause you to compromise the enjoyment of things you could do
on the fear of might-bes.

The payoff ideally being that you will have more enjoyment on average in
life vs. some percentage chance that, at some point, you will be up shit
creek without a paddle due to some decision you made which in hindsight
was not appropriate to the unfortunate situation you currently find
yourself in.

Unfortunate reality of the real world is that there are going to
probably be at least a few shit-creek times in your life where you don't
have the one thing you need or didn't do the one thing you should have
done. It's probably statistically unavoidable you can only handicap it.
But it doesn't make sense to run one's life around it.

I think you just said, if you love the idea of an electric car, then you
love it and nothing matters. Me, I tend not to fall in love with fads,
trends, hyperbole and evaluate on the merits. I see no compelling advantage
in an EV. And economically, they are a disaster and could not be sold,
at least not enough to survive, if the govt was not heavily subsidizing
them. I would consider one for a second car for use for commuting,
around town, etc, if I had the need and only if there was a clear economic
advantage with the tax credits.

 

[Winfield Hill]

bitrex wrote...

trader4@optonline.net wrote:

I think you just said, if you love the idea of an electric car,
then you love it and nothing matters. Me, I tend not to fall
in love with fads, trends, hyperbole and evaluate on the merits.
I see no compelling advantage in an EV.

The advantage is that an electric commuter car is a superior
vehicle in just about every way to a gasoline car as far as
operating costs and actual joule-per-mile consumption goes.

I can relate a serious advantage: it's a hell of a lot of
fun to drive, especially as an urban commuter. Mine must
have a 0 to 30 mph time of a second, it seems like that
anyway. Instant acceleration, and part of the fun is the
quiet, just a cool low-level whirrrr, frequency going up
with speed. Dunno if it's coming from the electric motor,
or inverter, but it's awesome. Automatic follow-the-car-
in-front features work nicely as well, also very quiet.


--
Thanks,
- Win

 

[bitrex]

On 4/24/19 10:31 AM, trader4@optonline.net wrote:

On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 at 6:21:56 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
On 4/22/19 11:31 AM, trader4@optonline.net wrote:

You make up scenarios that put EVs in the worse possible light

Isn't that what one does, when considering the possibilities? I don't
want a car where if it's been used to the end of it's charge range
and I have an unexpected need to go somewhere, I'm SCREWED. And it's
not like this is some 5 sigma event, it happens to people. I thought
engineers and the like were in this group? Do we design for just
sunny days? Or do we design for worst case? With a range of only
a couple hundred miles, it's not at all unexpected that there will
be times when that car is mostly discharged. Go on a long trip
somewhere to someplace rural, battery is near empty. Now what?

Part of being a successful engineer is, IMO, recognizing that not all
aspects of life are engineering problems to be "solved."

The "curse of dimensionality" exists when making choices for one's
personal life as well and one can always think up worst-case scenarios
for just about anything that can be sufficient reason to not make a
certain purchase or choose a particular choice of action.

That is to say there's a fine line between being actually-prudent and
just being stodgy. Being prudent can save you a lot of pain. Being
stodgy can cause you to compromise the enjoyment of things you could do
on the fear of might-bes.

The payoff ideally being that you will have more enjoyment on average in
life vs. some percentage chance that, at some point, you will be up shit
creek without a paddle due to some decision you made which in hindsight
was not appropriate to the unfortunate situation you currently find
yourself in.

Unfortunate reality of the real world is that there are going to
probably be at least a few shit-creek times in your life where you don't
have the one thing you need or didn't do the one thing you should have
done. It's probably statistically unavoidable you can only handicap it.
But it doesn't make sense to run one's life around it.

I think you just said, if you love the idea of an electric car, then you
love it and nothing matters. Me, I tend not to fall in love with fads,
trends, hyperbole and evaluate on the merits. I see no compelling advantage
in an EV. And economically, they are a disaster and could not be sold,
at least not enough to survive, if the govt was not heavily subsidizing
them. I would consider one for a second car for use for commuting,
around town, etc, if I had the need and only if there was a clear economic
advantage with the tax credits.

The advantage is that an electric commuter car is a superior vehicle in
just about every way to a gasoline car as far as operating costs and
actual joule-per-mile consumption goes.

Climate change denialists, abiogenetic oil theorists, and other loons
find no value in most of their strengths, in their worldview the
government should continue to heavily subsidize the oil industry, pump
an infinite amount of oil out of the ground to be burned an an ever
increasing number of gasoline powered cars to be exhausted into an
atmosphere capable of absorbing an infinite amount of carbon dioxide and
other gases, forever.

I have no common ground to argue advantages with that type of person,
unfortunately.

 

[bitrex]

On 4/24/19 6:19 PM, trader4@optonline.net wrote:

I have no common ground to argue advantages with that type of person,
unfortunately.

Where do you think the energy to recharge that car overnight in your garage
comes from? Moon beams?

I don't have a garage. luxury! There are many ways to produce
electricity. Gasoline is gasoline.

Oh, BTW, I reconsidered my earlier post where I said that I would consider
an EV for a second car, if the cost of ownership numbers worked out and
I needed one for short trips, commuting, around town, etc. But then I
realized my garage is at the other end of the house from the electric
panel, so to fast charge it, I'd have to run a new circuit all the way
across the house. If you have a finished basement, fugggedaboutit!
And whatever that cost is, it's typically going to be another $1000+
here to get that done, even with a basement that isn't finished,
So, I should live with two or three days to recharge? Maybe, but it's
yet another obvious problem. But heh, I'm crazy to be considering things
like that.

if your only use case is for short trips and commuting around town then
you clearly don't really need a car with a 250 mile range pack, my
Volt's s smaller pack charges up off a 120 volt outlet to full
overnight and that's usually good for a couple days worth of driving the
same kind of use case.

You only need zero to full charging overnight (or whenever you sleep,
most people sleep at some point) on a 250 mile range pack if you drive
250 miles a day. That's a lot of driving. Most people don't drive that much.

 

On Wednesday, April 24, 2019 at 4:55:52 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:

On 4/24/19 10:31 AM, trader4@optonline.net wrote:
On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 at 6:21:56 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
On 4/22/19 11:31 AM, trader4@optonline.net wrote:

You make up scenarios that put EVs in the worse possible light

Isn't that what one does, when considering the possibilities? I don't
want a car where if it's been used to the end of it's charge range
and I have an unexpected need to go somewhere, I'm SCREWED. And it's
not like this is some 5 sigma event, it happens to people. I thought
engineers and the like were in this group? Do we design for just
sunny days? Or do we design for worst case? With a range of only
a couple hundred miles, it's not at all unexpected that there will
be times when that car is mostly discharged. Go on a long trip
somewhere to someplace rural, battery is near empty. Now what?

Part of being a successful engineer is, IMO, recognizing that not all
aspects of life are engineering problems to be "solved."

The "curse of dimensionality" exists when making choices for one's
personal life as well and one can always think up worst-case scenarios
for just about anything that can be sufficient reason to not make a
certain purchase or choose a particular choice of action.

That is to say there's a fine line between being actually-prudent and
just being stodgy. Being prudent can save you a lot of pain. Being
stodgy can cause you to compromise the enjoyment of things you could do
on the fear of might-bes.

The payoff ideally being that you will have more enjoyment on average in
life vs. some percentage chance that, at some point, you will be up shit
creek without a paddle due to some decision you made which in hindsight
was not appropriate to the unfortunate situation you currently find
yourself in.

Unfortunate reality of the real world is that there are going to
probably be at least a few shit-creek times in your life where you don't
have the one thing you need or didn't do the one thing you should have
done. It's probably statistically unavoidable you can only handicap it.
But it doesn't make sense to run one's life around it.

I think you just said, if you love the idea of an electric car, then you
love it and nothing matters. Me, I tend not to fall in love with fads,
trends, hyperbole and evaluate on the merits. I see no compelling advantage
in an EV. And economically, they are a disaster and could not be sold,
at least not enough to survive, if the govt was not heavily subsidizing
them. I would consider one for a second car for use for commuting,
around town, etc, if I had the need and only if there was a clear economic
advantage with the tax credits.

The advantage is that an electric commuter car is a superior vehicle in
just about every way to a gasoline car as far as operating costs and
actual joule-per-mile consumption goes.

What's important is the overall cost of ownership, not just the operating
costs and I couldn't care less about joule-per-mile. And there, absent
the big govt subsidies, EV's are losers.

Climate change denialists, abiogenetic oil theorists, and other loons
find no value in most of their strengths, in their worldview the
government should continue to heavily subsidize the oil industry, pump
an infinite amount of oil out of the ground to be burned an an ever
increasing number of gasoline powered cars to be exhausted into an
atmosphere capable of absorbing an infinite amount of carbon dioxide and
other gases, forever.

I have no common ground to argue advantages with that type of person,
unfortunately.

Where do you think the energy to recharge that car overnight in your garage
comes from? Moon beams?


Oh, BTW, I reconsidered my earlier post where I said that I would consider
an EV for a second car, if the cost of ownership numbers worked out and
I needed one for short trips, commuting, around town, etc. But then I
realized my garage is at the other end of the house from the electric
panel, so to fast charge it, I'd have to run a new circuit all the way
across the house. If you have a finished basement, fugggedaboutit!
And whatever that cost is, it's typically going to be another $1000+
here to get that done, even with a basement that isn't finished,
So, I should live with two or three days to recharge? Maybe, but it's
yet another obvious problem. But heh, I'm crazy to be considering things
like that.

 

[bitrex]

On 4/24/19 6:19 PM, trader4@optonline.net wrote:

On Wednesday, April 24, 2019 at 4:55:52 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
On 4/24/19 10:31 AM, trader4@optonline.net wrote:
On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 at 6:21:56 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
On 4/22/19 11:31 AM, trader4@optonline.net wrote:

You make up scenarios that put EVs in the worse possible light

Isn't that what one does, when considering the possibilities? I don't
want a car where if it's been used to the end of it's charge range
and I have an unexpected need to go somewhere, I'm SCREWED. And it's
not like this is some 5 sigma event, it happens to people. I thought
engineers and the like were in this group? Do we design for just
sunny days? Or do we design for worst case? With a range of only
a couple hundred miles, it's not at all unexpected that there will
be times when that car is mostly discharged. Go on a long trip
somewhere to someplace rural, battery is near empty. Now what?

Part of being a successful engineer is, IMO, recognizing that not all
aspects of life are engineering problems to be "solved."

The "curse of dimensionality" exists when making choices for one's
personal life as well and one can always think up worst-case scenarios
for just about anything that can be sufficient reason to not make a
certain purchase or choose a particular choice of action.

That is to say there's a fine line between being actually-prudent and
just being stodgy. Being prudent can save you a lot of pain. Being
stodgy can cause you to compromise the enjoyment of things you could do
on the fear of might-bes.

The payoff ideally being that you will have more enjoyment on average in
life vs. some percentage chance that, at some point, you will be up shit
creek without a paddle due to some decision you made which in hindsight
was not appropriate to the unfortunate situation you currently find
yourself in.

Unfortunate reality of the real world is that there are going to
probably be at least a few shit-creek times in your life where you don't
have the one thing you need or didn't do the one thing you should have
done. It's probably statistically unavoidable you can only handicap it.
But it doesn't make sense to run one's life around it.

I think you just said, if you love the idea of an electric car, then you
love it and nothing matters. Me, I tend not to fall in love with fads,
trends, hyperbole and evaluate on the merits. I see no compelling advantage
in an EV. And economically, they are a disaster and could not be sold,
at least not enough to survive, if the govt was not heavily subsidizing
them. I would consider one for a second car for use for commuting,
around town, etc, if I had the need and only if there was a clear economic
advantage with the tax credits.

The advantage is that an electric commuter car is a superior vehicle in
just about every way to a gasoline car as far as operating costs and
actual joule-per-mile consumption goes.

What's important is the overall cost of ownership, not just the operating
costs and I couldn't care less about joule-per-mile. And there, absent
the big govt subsidies, EV's are losers.



Climate change denialists, abiogenetic oil theorists, and other loons
find no value in most of their strengths, in their worldview the
government should continue to heavily subsidize the oil industry, pump
an infinite amount of oil out of the ground to be burned an an ever
increasing number of gasoline powered cars to be exhausted into an
atmosphere capable of absorbing an infinite amount of carbon dioxide and
other gases, forever.

I have no common ground to argue advantages with that type of person,
unfortunately.

Where do you think the energy to recharge that car overnight in your garage
comes from? Moon beams?


Oh, BTW, I reconsidered my earlier post where I said that I would consider
an EV for a second car, if the cost of ownership numbers worked out and
I needed one for short trips, commuting, around town, etc. But then I
realized my garage is at the other end of the house from the electric
panel, so to fast charge it, I'd have to run a new circuit all the way
across the house. If you have a finished basement, fugggedaboutit!
And whatever that cost is, it's typically going to be another $1000+
here to get that done, even with a basement that isn't finished,
So, I should live with two or three days to recharge? Maybe, but it's
yet another obvious problem. But heh, I'm crazy to be considering things
like that.

Just get one of these weird-looking climate-controlled electric go-carts
from Mitsubishi for around-town use, they're only around $7000 used on
Carmax. small battery pack that charges pretty quick even off a 120VAC
outlet.

by some standards it probably deserves to be recognized as the actual
Model T of electric cars. but with only about 2k units sold in the US
total it'll probably be a collector's item sooner

<https://www2.greencarreports.com/news/1111892_rip-mitsubishi-i-miev-lowest-range-slowest-electric-car-departs-u-s-market>

 

trader4@optonline.net wrote in news:7a9c0b2a-457c-4b56-b95d-
9c802d6a4c91@googlegroups.com:

> I couldn't care less about joule-per-mile.

More proof that you are an absolute idiot.

E vehicles are ALL about battery efficiency, operating efficiency,
and getting the power to the rubber.

You trivializing it as a non-factor is absolute proof that you do not
even have the first clue about it.

 

On Wednesday, April 24, 2019 at 8:47:58 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:

On 4/24/19 6:19 PM, trader4@optonline.net wrote:
On Wednesday, April 24, 2019 at 4:55:52 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
On 4/24/19 10:31 AM, trader4@optonline.net wrote:
On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 at 6:21:56 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
On 4/22/19 11:31 AM, trader4@optonline.net wrote:

You make up scenarios that put EVs in the worse possible light

Isn't that what one does, when considering the possibilities? I don't
want a car where if it's been used to the end of it's charge range
and I have an unexpected need to go somewhere, I'm SCREWED. And it's
not like this is some 5 sigma event, it happens to people. I thought
engineers and the like were in this group? Do we design for just
sunny days? Or do we design for worst case? With a range of only
a couple hundred miles, it's not at all unexpected that there will
be times when that car is mostly discharged. Go on a long trip
somewhere to someplace rural, battery is near empty. Now what?

Part of being a successful engineer is, IMO, recognizing that not all
aspects of life are engineering problems to be "solved."

The "curse of dimensionality" exists when making choices for one's
personal life as well and one can always think up worst-case scenarios
for just about anything that can be sufficient reason to not make a
certain purchase or choose a particular choice of action.

That is to say there's a fine line between being actually-prudent and
just being stodgy. Being prudent can save you a lot of pain. Being
stodgy can cause you to compromise the enjoyment of things you could do
on the fear of might-bes.

The payoff ideally being that you will have more enjoyment on average in
life vs. some percentage chance that, at some point, you will be up shit
creek without a paddle due to some decision you made which in hindsight
was not appropriate to the unfortunate situation you currently find
yourself in.

Unfortunate reality of the real world is that there are going to
probably be at least a few shit-creek times in your life where you don't
have the one thing you need or didn't do the one thing you should have
done. It's probably statistically unavoidable you can only handicap it.
But it doesn't make sense to run one's life around it.

I think you just said, if you love the idea of an electric car, then you
love it and nothing matters. Me, I tend not to fall in love with fads,
trends, hyperbole and evaluate on the merits. I see no compelling advantage
in an EV. And economically, they are a disaster and could not be sold,
at least not enough to survive, if the govt was not heavily subsidizing
them. I would consider one for a second car for use for commuting,
around town, etc, if I had the need and only if there was a clear economic
advantage with the tax credits.

The advantage is that an electric commuter car is a superior vehicle in
just about every way to a gasoline car as far as operating costs and
actual joule-per-mile consumption goes.

What's important is the overall cost of ownership, not just the operating
costs and I couldn't care less about joule-per-mile. And there, absent
the big govt subsidies, EV's are losers.



Climate change denialists, abiogenetic oil theorists, and other loons
find no value in most of their strengths, in their worldview the
government should continue to heavily subsidize the oil industry, pump
an infinite amount of oil out of the ground to be burned an an ever
increasing number of gasoline powered cars to be exhausted into an
atmosphere capable of absorbing an infinite amount of carbon dioxide and
other gases, forever.

I have no common ground to argue advantages with that type of person,
unfortunately.

Where do you think the energy to recharge that car overnight in your garage
comes from? Moon beams?


Oh, BTW, I reconsidered my earlier post where I said that I would consider
an EV for a second car, if the cost of ownership numbers worked out and
I needed one for short trips, commuting, around town, etc. But then I
realized my garage is at the other end of the house from the electric
panel, so to fast charge it, I'd have to run a new circuit all the way
across the house. If you have a finished basement, fugggedaboutit!
And whatever that cost is, it's typically going to be another $1000+
here to get that done, even with a basement that isn't finished,
So, I should live with two or three days to recharge? Maybe, but it's
yet another obvious problem. But heh, I'm crazy to be considering things
like that.


Just get one of these weird-looking climate-controlled electric go-carts
from Mitsubishi for around-town use, they're only around $7000 used on
Carmax. small battery pack that charges pretty quick even off a 120VAC
outlet.

by some standards it probably deserves to be recognized as the actual
Model T of electric cars. but with only about 2k units sold in the US
total it'll probably be a collector's item sooner

https://www2.greencarreports.com/news/1111892_rip-mitsubishi-i-miev-lowest-range-slowest-electric-car-departs-u-s-market

A friend of mine's business sells them. Big problem with those is that
you can only use them in certain towns here and even then only in areas
where the speed limit is 25. Those and just plain old golf carts
are popular in retirement communities here. The road worthy ones you
see a rare one in some of the shore towns, where you can drive it from
the beach ten blocks to main street or your house, that kind of thing.
Definitely not for prime time, though.

 

On Thursday, April 25, 2019 at 12:27:15 AM UTC-4, DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:

trader4@optonline.net wrote in news:7a9c0b2a-457c-4b56-b95d-
9c802d6a4c91@googlegroups.com:

I couldn't care less about joule-per-mile.

More proof that you are an absolute idiot.

E vehicles are ALL about battery efficiency, operating efficiency,
and getting the power to the rubber.

You trivializing it as a non-factor is absolute proof that you do not
even have the first clue about it.

As usual you conveniently edited out the rest of what I said, which
was that I care about the TOTAL COST OF OWNERSHIP, which obviously
includes the cost of the electric to run it. Got it now?

 

[bitrex]

On 4/25/19 8:22 AM, trader4@optonline.net wrote:

On Wednesday, April 24, 2019 at 8:47:58 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
On 4/24/19 6:19 PM, trader4@optonline.net wrote:
On Wednesday, April 24, 2019 at 4:55:52 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
On 4/24/19 10:31 AM, trader4@optonline.net wrote:
On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 at 6:21:56 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
On 4/22/19 11:31 AM, trader4@optonline.net wrote:

You make up scenarios that put EVs in the worse possible light

Isn't that what one does, when considering the possibilities? I don't
want a car where if it's been used to the end of it's charge range
and I have an unexpected need to go somewhere, I'm SCREWED. And it's
not like this is some 5 sigma event, it happens to people. I thought
engineers and the like were in this group? Do we design for just
sunny days? Or do we design for worst case? With a range of only
a couple hundred miles, it's not at all unexpected that there will
be times when that car is mostly discharged. Go on a long trip
somewhere to someplace rural, battery is near empty. Now what?

Part of being a successful engineer is, IMO, recognizing that not all
aspects of life are engineering problems to be "solved."

The "curse of dimensionality" exists when making choices for one's
personal life as well and one can always think up worst-case scenarios
for just about anything that can be sufficient reason to not make a
certain purchase or choose a particular choice of action.

That is to say there's a fine line between being actually-prudent and
just being stodgy. Being prudent can save you a lot of pain. Being
stodgy can cause you to compromise the enjoyment of things you could do
on the fear of might-bes.

The payoff ideally being that you will have more enjoyment on average in
life vs. some percentage chance that, at some point, you will be up shit
creek without a paddle due to some decision you made which in hindsight
was not appropriate to the unfortunate situation you currently find
yourself in.

Unfortunate reality of the real world is that there are going to
probably be at least a few shit-creek times in your life where you don't
have the one thing you need or didn't do the one thing you should have
done. It's probably statistically unavoidable you can only handicap it.
But it doesn't make sense to run one's life around it.

I think you just said, if you love the idea of an electric car, then you
love it and nothing matters. Me, I tend not to fall in love with fads,
trends, hyperbole and evaluate on the merits. I see no compelling advantage
in an EV. And economically, they are a disaster and could not be sold,
at least not enough to survive, if the govt was not heavily subsidizing
them. I would consider one for a second car for use for commuting,
around town, etc, if I had the need and only if there was a clear economic
advantage with the tax credits.

The advantage is that an electric commuter car is a superior vehicle in
just about every way to a gasoline car as far as operating costs and
actual joule-per-mile consumption goes.

What's important is the overall cost of ownership, not just the operating
costs and I couldn't care less about joule-per-mile. And there, absent
the big govt subsidies, EV's are losers.



Climate change denialists, abiogenetic oil theorists, and other loons
find no value in most of their strengths, in their worldview the
government should continue to heavily subsidize the oil industry, pump
an infinite amount of oil out of the ground to be burned an an ever
increasing number of gasoline powered cars to be exhausted into an
atmosphere capable of absorbing an infinite amount of carbon dioxide and
other gases, forever.

I have no common ground to argue advantages with that type of person,
unfortunately.

Where do you think the energy to recharge that car overnight in your garage
comes from? Moon beams?


Oh, BTW, I reconsidered my earlier post where I said that I would consider
an EV for a second car, if the cost of ownership numbers worked out and
I needed one for short trips, commuting, around town, etc. But then I
realized my garage is at the other end of the house from the electric
panel, so to fast charge it, I'd have to run a new circuit all the way
across the house. If you have a finished basement, fugggedaboutit!
And whatever that cost is, it's typically going to be another $1000+
here to get that done, even with a basement that isn't finished,
So, I should live with two or three days to recharge? Maybe, but it's
yet another obvious problem. But heh, I'm crazy to be considering things
like that.


Just get one of these weird-looking climate-controlled electric go-carts
from Mitsubishi for around-town use, they're only around $7000 used on
Carmax. small battery pack that charges pretty quick even off a 120VAC
outlet.

by some standards it probably deserves to be recognized as the actual
Model T of electric cars. but with only about 2k units sold in the US
total it'll probably be a collector's item sooner

https://www2.greencarreports.com/news/1111892_rip-mitsubishi-i-miev-lowest-range-slowest-electric-car-departs-u-s-market

A friend of mine's business sells them. Big problem with those is that
you can only use them in certain towns here and even then only in areas
where the speed limit is 25. Those and just plain old golf carts
are popular in retirement communities here. The road worthy ones you
see a rare one in some of the shore towns, where you can drive it from
the beach ten blocks to main street or your house, that kind of thing.
Definitely not for prime time, though.

I'm pretty sure Kei-cars are street legal for all public roadways in the
US if they were imported for sale by e.g. Mitsubishi in this case and
met all the DOT requirements as I would assume those did

 

On Thursday, April 25, 2019 at 10:37:41 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:

On 4/25/19 8:22 AM, trader4@optonline.net wrote:
On Wednesday, April 24, 2019 at 8:47:58 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
On 4/24/19 6:19 PM, trader4@optonline.net wrote:
On Wednesday, April 24, 2019 at 4:55:52 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
On 4/24/19 10:31 AM, trader4@optonline.net wrote:
On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 at 6:21:56 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
On 4/22/19 11:31 AM, trader4@optonline.net wrote:

You make up scenarios that put EVs in the worse possible light

Isn't that what one does, when considering the possibilities? I don't
want a car where if it's been used to the end of it's charge range
and I have an unexpected need to go somewhere, I'm SCREWED. And it's
not like this is some 5 sigma event, it happens to people. I thought
engineers and the like were in this group? Do we design for just
sunny days? Or do we design for worst case? With a range of only
a couple hundred miles, it's not at all unexpected that there will
be times when that car is mostly discharged. Go on a long trip
somewhere to someplace rural, battery is near empty. Now what?

Part of being a successful engineer is, IMO, recognizing that not all
aspects of life are engineering problems to be "solved."

The "curse of dimensionality" exists when making choices for one's
personal life as well and one can always think up worst-case scenarios
for just about anything that can be sufficient reason to not make a
certain purchase or choose a particular choice of action.

That is to say there's a fine line between being actually-prudent and
just being stodgy. Being prudent can save you a lot of pain. Being
stodgy can cause you to compromise the enjoyment of things you could do
on the fear of might-bes.

The payoff ideally being that you will have more enjoyment on average in
life vs. some percentage chance that, at some point, you will be up shit
creek without a paddle due to some decision you made which in hindsight
was not appropriate to the unfortunate situation you currently find
yourself in.

Unfortunate reality of the real world is that there are going to
probably be at least a few shit-creek times in your life where you don't
have the one thing you need or didn't do the one thing you should have
done. It's probably statistically unavoidable you can only handicap it.
But it doesn't make sense to run one's life around it.

I think you just said, if you love the idea of an electric car, then you
love it and nothing matters. Me, I tend not to fall in love with fads,
trends, hyperbole and evaluate on the merits. I see no compelling advantage
in an EV. And economically, they are a disaster and could not be sold,
at least not enough to survive, if the govt was not heavily subsidizing
them. I would consider one for a second car for use for commuting,
around town, etc, if I had the need and only if there was a clear economic
advantage with the tax credits.

The advantage is that an electric commuter car is a superior vehicle in
just about every way to a gasoline car as far as operating costs and
actual joule-per-mile consumption goes.

What's important is the overall cost of ownership, not just the operating
costs and I couldn't care less about joule-per-mile. And there, absent
the big govt subsidies, EV's are losers.



Climate change denialists, abiogenetic oil theorists, and other loons
find no value in most of their strengths, in their worldview the
government should continue to heavily subsidize the oil industry, pump
an infinite amount of oil out of the ground to be burned an an ever
increasing number of gasoline powered cars to be exhausted into an
atmosphere capable of absorbing an infinite amount of carbon dioxide and
other gases, forever.

I have no common ground to argue advantages with that type of person,
unfortunately.

Where do you think the energy to recharge that car overnight in your garage
comes from? Moon beams?


Oh, BTW, I reconsidered my earlier post where I said that I would consider
an EV for a second car, if the cost of ownership numbers worked out and
I needed one for short trips, commuting, around town, etc. But then I
realized my garage is at the other end of the house from the electric
panel, so to fast charge it, I'd have to run a new circuit all the way
across the house. If you have a finished basement, fugggedaboutit!
And whatever that cost is, it's typically going to be another $1000+
here to get that done, even with a basement that isn't finished,
So, I should live with two or three days to recharge? Maybe, but it's
yet another obvious problem. But heh, I'm crazy to be considering things
like that.


Just get one of these weird-looking climate-controlled electric go-carts
from Mitsubishi for around-town use, they're only around $7000 used on
Carmax. small battery pack that charges pretty quick even off a 120VAC
outlet.

by some standards it probably deserves to be recognized as the actual
Model T of electric cars. but with only about 2k units sold in the US
total it'll probably be a collector's item sooner

https://www2.greencarreports.com/news/1111892_rip-mitsubishi-i-miev-lowest-range-slowest-electric-car-departs-u-s-market

A friend of mine's business sells them. Big problem with those is that
you can only use them in certain towns here and even then only in areas
where the speed limit is 25. Those and just plain old golf carts
are popular in retirement communities here. The road worthy ones you
see a rare one in some of the shore towns, where you can drive it from
the beach ten blocks to main street or your house, that kind of thing.
Definitely not for prime time, though.


I'm pretty sure Kei-cars are street legal for all public roadways in the
US if they were imported for sale by e.g. Mitsubishi in this case and
met all the DOT requirements as I would assume those did

Never knew they existed, never saw one on the road, and a quick google
doesn't show any dealers in NJ, or maybe anywhere else for that matter.
There were some hits for trucks, but they are probably gas. Smart cars
are rare, but at least I do see one of those shit boxes once in a
while.