Only one EV charger at home?!...

[Bob F]

On 4/20/2023 3:56 PM, SteveW wrote:

On 20/04/2023 22:23, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-04-20 22:48, SteveW wrote:
On 20/04/2023 18:45, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-04-20 11:27, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 19/04/2023 20:54, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-04-19 17:45, Bob F wrote:
On 4/19/2023 5:36 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-04-19 14:12, Theo wrote:
In uk.d-i-y Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
Interesting.

How does it work, you foot the brake pedal, and the car
decides whether
to apply the actual brakes or generator mode?

In general yes.  The car will decide whether to use regen or
friction
brakes.  For example mostly regen if the battery can take it,
but at low
speeds friction might be used for the last few mph down to zero
where regen
is weak.  Also in an emergency stop both might be used.

What happens when you release the accelerator pedal? Does it
just coast
along, or does it apply \"engine brake\" as in a gasoline car?

That\'s called \'one pedal driving\', and on many EVs you can
adjust the
retardation (regen) in a number of steps from coasting through
to quite
aggressive braking.  Coasting is more like a regular
transmission where you
have to use the brake pedal, whereas with higher levels you can
drive with
accelerator alone.

By \"regular transmission\" you mean \"automatic\"?

Most cars here have a manual transmission, and on those the
(gasoline) car brakes somewhat when the accelerator pedal is
released. We use that to maintain the speed when going down long
slopes, instead of using the brake. If we need more brake
action, we shift to a lower gear.


Obviously, with an electric car, you would make a simple
adjustment to your driving style to accommodate the small
difference. Especially since using the brake pedal will recharge
your battery for free.

Of course, that\'s the advantage of electrics. I just wondered how
they arranged the controls.

Then the brakes must be \"by wire\", so that the car decides to
apply them or not. Makes me a bit uneasy.

Not arf as uneasy as power assisted brakes that lose power assistance.

I had a manual XJS once. The brakes were fed not by vacuum, but by
an electric pump.

I was just coasting to a halt in my drive when I switched the
engine off.  The brakes vanished.

Totally?

That\'s not supposed to happen. You should only lose the assist, so
you just had to press the pedal harder. Depending, you\'d feel the
brake become \"hard\".

I remember that I would play with it. Car parked, engine stopped,
press the brake pedal and release. After two or three pushes, it
suddenly became stiff and would not yield: the vacuum storage was
spent.

I don\'t know how the assist works in my current car (an Opel Corsa).
There is no vacuum storage in sight.

My father had a couple of Citroens, with their hydraulically assisted
brakes. There was an accumulator to allow the brakes to stop the car
if the engine failed, but after a couple of presses, there was NO
noticeable braking at all. When I had to tow him, we used a rigid
bar, as he effectively had no brakes and I needed to brake for both
cars. Luckily we were only going a mile and a half to a garage.

In my case, the brakes did work, but you had to press really hard.

That\'s normal for most cars, using vacuum servos to assist the existing
brake master cylinder. Citroens are different (they seem to like to be
weird), using a hydraulic pump to power the brakes (it also powers the
power steering and the rising and falling suspension), with a small
accumulator. Once that accumulator is emptied, not only is there no
assistance, but there are no brakes at all.

I had a \'93 Voyager that had the Bendix 10 ABS system, which also had
such an accumulator. That was good for about 3 assisted stops, but after
that you still got some braking especially with both feet on the pedal.
After the system failed (which apparently happened to all of them
eventually), I replaced it with a vacuum brake system lines acquired
from a junkyard and a new vacuum assist master cylinder assembly.

 

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2023-04-21 01:05, SteveW wrote:

On 20/04/2023 22:27, Carlos E.R. wrote:

On 2023-04-20 22:09, Rod Speed wrote:
On Fri, 21 Apr 2023 03:54:19 +1000, Carlos E.R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2023-04-20 19:19, Rod Speed wrote:
On Thu, 20 Apr 2023 20:54:55 +1000, Carlos E.R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2023-04-20 00:27, Rod Speed wrote:
On Thu, 20 Apr 2023 05:52:52 +1000, Carlos E.R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2023-04-19 18:27, John Larkin wrote:
On Wed, 19 Apr 2023 14:36:49 +0200, \"Carlos E.R.\"
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2023-04-19 14:12, Theo wrote:
In uk.d-i-y Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
Interesting.

How does it work, you foot the brake pedal, and the car
decides whether
to apply the actual brakes or generator mode?

In general yes.  The car will decide whether to use
regen or friction brakes.  For example mostly regen
if the battery can take it, but at low speeds
friction might be used for the last few mph down to
zero where regen is weak.  Also in an emergency stop
both might be used.

What happens when you release the accelerator
pedal? Does it just coast along, or does it apply
\"engine brake\" as in a gasoline car?

That\'s called \'one pedal driving\', and on many EVs
you can adjust the retardation (regen) in a number of
steps from coasting through to quite aggressive
braking.  Coasting is more like a regular transmission where
you have to use the brake pedal,
whereas with higher levels you can drive with accelerator alone.

By \"regular transmission\" you mean \"automatic\"?

Most cars here have a manual transmission,
 where\'s that?

My address says \"es\", thus Spain


and on those the (gasoline) car brakes somewhat when
the accelerator pedal is released. We use that to
maintain the speed when going down long slopes, instead
of using the brake. If we need more brake action, we
shift to a lower gear.
 My wife and kid threatened to divorce me if I got one more
manual-transmission car. They couldn\'t drive a manual on the hills
here.

:-D

Till relatively recently, the driving test was done only on
manual cars.
 Are you saying you don\'t get tested in your own car or
the one from the driving school you learnt to drive in ?

The test is done in the driving school car, and all of them I have
seen are manual shift.

You could use another car, but it has to be fitted with pedals on
the other seat.
 Bloody hell, we never do that and the the driving school
cars dont have any pedals in the passenger seat either.
 Most choose to learn to drive in their own car and the
driving school does have a few cars that they use for
teaching those that don\'t have a car, but they are
normal cars, no extra pedals.

https://images.app.goo.gl/jvTPVT5LPmVpP8ma7

We have never done it like that, just use normal unmodified
cars, both when learning in your own car and when using
the car provided by the driving school..

AFAIK, that is forbidden here.

In the UK, manual driving school cars usually have a brake and clutch on
the passenger side and the instructor is trained in methods to grab the
wheel, while knocking the pupil\'s hand away from the wheel (two
different moves, depending upon which way the instructor needs to steer).

Yes.

My instructor died doing that. He saved the life of the student, pulling
the steering wheel and avoiding crashing against an incoming car, but
crashed into a lamppost instead (at the pavement on the right side of
the street). He entered the hospital on his own foot, but died hours
later of internal injuries. Ruptured liver, I think.

He did not appear at the agreed place to collect me for the class. I
went back home, somewhat fuming, then phoned the driving school asking
why he did not appear. He is dead, they said.

Blaam! Bummer.

Anyone with a licence that they have had for at least 3 years and being
over 21, can instruct a learner in a normal, unmodified car. The learner
can take the test in an unmodified car, but most use their instructor\'s
driving school car.

The have a sensor on the pedals. If the instructor has to use the pedals
during the exam, a beeper sounds and the student is failed immediately.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

 

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2023-04-21 00:56, SteveW wrote:

On 20/04/2023 22:23, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-04-20 22:48, SteveW wrote:
On 20/04/2023 18:45, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-04-20 11:27, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 19/04/2023 20:54, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-04-19 17:45, Bob F wrote:
On 4/19/2023 5:36 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-04-19 14:12, Theo wrote:
In uk.d-i-y Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
Interesting.

How does it work, you foot the brake pedal, and the car
decides whether
to apply the actual brakes or generator mode?

In general yes.  The car will decide whether to use regen or
friction
brakes.  For example mostly regen if the battery can take it,
but at low
speeds friction might be used for the last few mph down to zero
where regen
is weak.  Also in an emergency stop both might be used.

What happens when you release the accelerator pedal? Does it
just coast
along, or does it apply \"engine brake\" as in a gasoline car?

That\'s called \'one pedal driving\', and on many EVs you can
adjust the
retardation (regen) in a number of steps from coasting through
to quite
aggressive braking.  Coasting is more like a regular
transmission where you
have to use the brake pedal, whereas with higher levels you can
drive with
accelerator alone.

By \"regular transmission\" you mean \"automatic\"?

Most cars here have a manual transmission, and on those the
(gasoline) car brakes somewhat when the accelerator pedal is
released. We use that to maintain the speed when going down long
slopes, instead of using the brake. If we need more brake
action, we shift to a lower gear.


Obviously, with an electric car, you would make a simple
adjustment to your driving style to accommodate the small
difference. Especially since using the brake pedal will recharge
your battery for free.

Of course, that\'s the advantage of electrics. I just wondered how
they arranged the controls.

Then the brakes must be \"by wire\", so that the car decides to
apply them or not. Makes me a bit uneasy.

Not arf as uneasy as power assisted brakes that lose power assistance.

I had a manual XJS once. The brakes were fed not by vacuum, but by
an electric pump.

I was just coasting to a halt in my drive when I switched the
engine off.  The brakes vanished.

Totally?

That\'s not supposed to happen. You should only lose the assist, so
you just had to press the pedal harder. Depending, you\'d feel the
brake become \"hard\".

I remember that I would play with it. Car parked, engine stopped,
press the brake pedal and release. After two or three pushes, it
suddenly became stiff and would not yield: the vacuum storage was
spent.

I don\'t know how the assist works in my current car (an Opel Corsa).
There is no vacuum storage in sight.

My father had a couple of Citroens, with their hydraulically assisted
brakes. There was an accumulator to allow the brakes to stop the car
if the engine failed, but after a couple of presses, there was NO
noticeable braking at all. When I had to tow him, we used a rigid
bar, as he effectively had no brakes and I needed to brake for both
cars. Luckily we were only going a mile and a half to a garage.

In my case, the brakes did work, but you had to press really hard.

That\'s normal for most cars, using vacuum servos to assist the existing
brake master cylinder. Citroens are different (they seem to like to be
weird), using a hydraulic pump to power the brakes (it also powers the
power steering and the rising and falling suspension), with a small
accumulator. Once that accumulator is emptied, not only is there no
assistance, but there are no brakes at all.

Ow :-(

--
Cheers, Carlos.

 

[rbowman]

On Thu, 20 Apr 2023 12:01:37 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

I vividly remember using the engine and handbrake to avoid the people
who were overtaking me and slamming their brakes on when my master
cylinder hydraulic line fractured

I\'ve been in that situation a couple of times before dual systems became
standard. Even with a dual system after a porcupine chewed through a brake
hose going to the front caliper I found the rear brakes on a F150 don\'t do
much in the way of stopping.

 

[rbowman]

On Thu, 20 Apr 2023 10:28:27 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Not really. They are simpler cheaper and slightly more efficient.
And give greater control of the vehicle.

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/chevrolet/camaro/

That shows the AT having a slight edge across the board. The modern 8 or
10 speed ATs aren\'t your grandpa\'s PowerSlide. They\'re even a little
faster off the line with the big V-8.

It\'s hard to find apples to apples comparisons. For example the new Civics
are only AT and the sportier Civic Si is only MT.

 

[rbowman]

On Thu, 20 Apr 2023 10:27:04 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> Not arf as uneasy as power assisted brakes that lose power assistance.

Ever drive a car with mechanical brakes? It\'s a good thing they could go
all that fast.

 

[rbowman]

On Thu, 20 Apr 2023 23:56:02 +0100, SteveW wrote:

That\'s normal for most cars, using vacuum servos to assist the existing
brake master cylinder. Citroens are different (they seem to like to be
weird), using a hydraulic pump to power the brakes (it also powers the
power steering and the rising and falling suspension), with a small
accumulator. Once that accumulator is emptied, not only is there no
assistance, but there are no brakes at all.

When I was looking for a car in the early \'70s I briefly considered a DS.
Then my engineering mind totaled up how many strange and wondrous things
could go wrong.

I wound up buying an Audi. It had its share of problems as VW tried to
figure out how to build cars with the engine and transmission on the wrong
end.

 

[micky]

In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 19 Apr 2023 13:42:53 -0700, Bob F
<bobnospam@gmail.com> wrote:

On 4/19/2023 12:54 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-04-19 17:45, Bob F wrote:
On 4/19/2023 5:36 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-04-19 14:12, Theo wrote:
In uk.d-i-y Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
Interesting.

How does it work, you foot the brake pedal, and the car decides
whether
to apply the actual brakes or generator mode?

In general yes.  The car will decide whether to use regen or friction
brakes.  For example mostly regen if the battery can take it, but at
low
speeds friction might be used for the last few mph down to zero
where regen
is weak.  Also in an emergency stop both might be used.

What happens when you release the accelerator pedal? Does it just
coast
along, or does it apply \"engine brake\" as in a gasoline car?

That\'s called \'one pedal driving\', and on many EVs you can adjust the
retardation (regen) in a number of steps from coasting through to quite
aggressive braking.  Coasting is more like a regular transmission
where you
have to use the brake pedal, whereas with higher levels you can
drive with
accelerator alone.

By \"regular transmission\" you mean \"automatic\"?

Most cars here have a manual transmission, and on those the
(gasoline) car brakes somewhat when the accelerator pedal is
released. We use that to maintain the speed when going down long
slopes, instead of using the brake. If we need more brake action, we
shift to a lower gear.


Obviously, with an electric car, you would make a simple adjustment to
your driving style to accommodate the small difference. Especially
since using the brake pedal will recharge your battery for free.

Of course, that\'s the advantage of electrics. I just wondered how they
arranged the controls.

Then the brakes must be \"by wire\", so that the car decides to apply them
or not. Makes me a bit uneasy.


I suspect that there is a range of pedal motion that works that way, and
an always apply friction brakes range beyond that. But maybe not.

Our 1952 Hudson Wasp had, iirc, both hydraulic and mechanical brakes
connected to the brake pedal. I don\'t know any details of how it worked.

 

[Rod Speed]

On Fri, 21 Apr 2023 11:37:11 +1000, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

On Thu, 20 Apr 2023 23:56:02 +0100, SteveW wrote:

That\'s normal for most cars, using vacuum servos to assist the existing
brake master cylinder. Citroens are different (they seem to like to be
weird), using a hydraulic pump to power the brakes (it also powers the
power steering and the rising and falling suspension), with a small
accumulator. Once that accumulator is emptied, not only is there no
assistance, but there are no brakes at all.

When I was looking for a car in the early \'70s I briefly considered a DS.
Then my engineering mind totaled up how many strange and wondrous things
could go wrong.

I wound up buying an Audi. It had its share of problems as VW tried to
figure out how to build cars with the engine and transmission on the
wrong
end.

They did fine with the Golf.

 

[rbowman]

On Thu, 20 Apr 2023 09:08:10 GMT, Cindy Hamilton wrote:

On 2023-04-20, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Wed, 19 Apr 2023 19:04:28 +0100, Commander Kinsey wrote:

And ours are 50 litres per minute (that\'s my full tank). You have
bigger cars with slower petrol....

You haven\'t seen anything until you\'ve seen a pickup with dual tanks. I
remember those sunny days of yore when gas pumps only went up to
$99.99.

My tank only holds 42 liters. What sort of whale do you drive?

Each of ours (Highlander and FJ cruiser) holds 60 liters. What sort of
econobox do you drive?

Toyota Yaris. I look on it as the cultural heir to the original Mini
unlike the over-priced reincarnation. Cheap, FWD, transverse engine that
runs like a scalded cat (for it\'s size)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWMmD2kkmgo

This one has a few mods...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvvWPlXjEss

And this one gave me a few ideas. I folded the rear seats down when I
bought it but I didn\'t think about taking the backs off entirely. I did
something like that with the pickup but never got that elaborate with the
Yaris. It certainly would be nicer if it rained than my tent.

 

[rbowman]

On Thu, 20 Apr 2023 02:28:31 +0100, Commander Kinsey wrote:

On Thu, 20 Apr 2023 01:17:02 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

On Wed, 19 Apr 2023 23:58:58 +0100, Commander Kinsey wrote:

Including police. Mind you an American policeman has an average IQ of
only 104.

That\'s 20 points higher than most of those he deals with.

Kafirs? I gather there\'s an orangutan or similar with 80. Nigerians
are 65. This conclusively proves some of us devolved not evolved from
apes.

We have our share of mentally challenged whites.


> No excuse for being that low though. Police ought te be 120+.

Why? Despite all the TV dramas a day in the life of most cops is boring
routine. The smart ones move up in the ranks but you still need the rank
and file. In any case IQ doesn\'t correlate well with dealing with people.

 

[rbowman]

On Thu, 20 Apr 2023 17:21:15 +0100, SteveW wrote:

Eventually the company was sold to Great British Sport Cars, who
produced a more conventional kit. They actually produce a kit designed
for the US, where people have successfully built and registered them.

I saw that googling around, the Zero. Decades ago I hung around with some
people who raced a Seven and they fascinated me. I\'m a little long in the
tooth to undertake building a kit car and I have the bikes if I want the
thrill of bugs in my teeth and the aroma of rotting deer carcasses.

 

[Rod Speed]

On Fri, 21 Apr 2023 15:03:52 +1000, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

On Thu, 20 Apr 2023 09:08:10 GMT, Cindy Hamilton wrote:

On 2023-04-20, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Wed, 19 Apr 2023 19:04:28 +0100, Commander Kinsey wrote:

And ours are 50 litres per minute (that\'s my full tank). You have
bigger cars with slower petrol....

You haven\'t seen anything until you\'ve seen a pickup with dual tanks. I
remember those sunny days of yore when gas pumps only went up to
$99.99.

My tank only holds 42 liters. What sort of whale do you drive?

Each of ours (Highlander and FJ cruiser) holds 60 liters. What sort of
econobox do you drive?

Toyota Yaris. I look on it as the cultural heir to the original Mini
unlike the over-priced reincarnation. Cheap, FWD, transverse engine that
runs like a scalded cat (for it\'s size)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWMmD2kkmgo

This one has a few mods...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvvWPlXjEss

And this one gave me a few ideas. I folded the rear seats down when I
bought it but I didn\'t think about taking the backs off entirely. I did
something like that with the pickup but never got that elaborate with the
Yaris. It certainly would be nicer if it rained than my tent.

My Hyundai Gretz isnt big enough to sleep in even with the entire back
seat removed and its only a to pins to get the entire back seat out.

Not sure about the passenger seat removed
as well, but its considerably harder to remove.

 

[Peeler]

On 21 Apr 2023 05:22:49 GMT, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:


> We have our share of mentally challenged whites.

Oh, yeah, you managed to convince me of that already quite some time ago,
you demented senile bigmouth! LOL

--
Another one of the resident senile bigmouth\'s idiotic \"cool\" lines:
\"If you\'re an ax murderer don\'t leave souvenir photos on your phone.\"
\"MID: <k7ssc7F8mt9U3@mid.individual.net>\"

 

[Peeler]

On 21 Apr 2023 05:03:52 GMT, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:

Toyota Yaris. I look on it as the cultural heir to the original Mini
unlike the over-priced reincarnation.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA... Bigmouth is at it again...

--
Yet more of the very interesting senile blather by lowbrowwoman:
\"I save my fries quota for one of the local food trucks that offers
poutine every now and then. If you\'re going for a coronary might as well
do it right.\"
MID: <ivdi4gF8btlU1@mid.individual.net>

 

[Peeler]

On Fri, 21 Apr 2023 16:05:34 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin\'s latest trollshit unread>

--
Bod addressing abnormal senile quarreller Rodent Speed:
\"Do you practice arguing with yourself in an empty room?\"
MID: <g4ihlaFh5p5U2@mid.individual.net>

 

[Peeler]

On 21 Apr 2023 05:40:00 GMT, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:

I saw that googling around, the Zero. Decades ago I hung around with some
people who raced a Seven and they fascinated me. I\'m a little long in the
tooth to undertake building a kit car and I have the bikes if I want the
thrill of bugs in my teeth and the aroma of rotting deer carcasses.

Another thrilling story about your fascinating grand person! People can\'t
get enough of it! And you KNOW it, right? LMAO

--
Yet another thrilling account from the resident senile superhero\'s senile
life:
\"I went to a Driveby Truckers concert at a local venue and they made me
leave my knife in the car. Never went back. Come to think of it the Truckers
had a Black Lives Matter banner. Never bought any of their music again
either.\"
MID: <k84ip9Fesb1U1@mid.individual.net>

 

[Peeler]

On 21 Apr 2023 00:57:41 GMT, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:


> I\'ve been in that situation a couple of times before

But you big mouth emerged unscathed, every time. I bet!

--
Yet more of the so very interesting senile blather by lowbrowwoman:
\"My family loaded me into a \'51 Chevy and drove from NY to Seattle and
back in \'52. I\'m alive. The Chevy had a painted steel dashboard with two
little hand prints worn down to the primer because I liked to stand up
and lean on it to see where we were going.\"
MID: <j2kuc1F3ejsU1@mid.individual.net>

 

[micky]

In alt.home.repair, on Thu, 20 Apr 2023 12:54:55 +0200, \"Carlos E.R.\"
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

Are you saying you don\'t get tested in your own car or
the one from the driving school you learnt to drive in ?

The test is done in the driving school car, and all of them I have seen
are manual shift.

You could use another car, but it has to be fitted with pedals on the
other seat.

Good idea on their part.

I decided to teach my girlfriend, who was over 30, how to drive.

I put a block of wood under the carboretor thingy so you could only get
the car up to about 20 mph, and I found a bent piece of metal conduit I
could slide underneath the kickpanel to the left of the driver\'s feet,
and then across the brake pedal and over to the passenger side.

We lived in NYC but were in a small town for the day. Only 5 minutes
in, she\'s driving along and I\'m saying Slow Down, then yelling Slow
Down, and as we got to the end of the road, I actually had to use my
passenger-side brakes. We slid to a stop on gravel that had piled up
there, and we even spun a little.

I asked why she didn\'t take her foot off the gas. She said she didn\'t
know about that method!!!! Apparently I had\'t started with the basics.
I didn\'t realize how little someone can know.

Next time I teach someone, I\'ll take her to a go-kart track and let her
start on that. Learn that the thing slows down when you take your foot
off the gas.

BTW, she was supposed to get a learner\'s permit, but she hadn\'t even
done that. So that was the end of her lessons. (Had we gone beyond the
road there was 20 feet of grass before we got to a cross-road.

She still lives in NYC, NY and still does\'t know how to drive and she\'s
as old as I am.

 

[Peeler]

On 21 Apr 2023 01:37:11 GMT, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:


> When I was looking for a car in the early \'70s

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!

<FLUSH the usual senile crap>

--
And yet another \"cool\" line from the resident bigmouthed all-American
superhero:
\"I was working on the roof when the cat came up the ladder to see what I
was doing. Cats do not do well going down aluminum ladders.\"
MID: <k9roshF2rjdU1@mid.individual.net>