Mains power voltage drop to reduce usage?...

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2022-11-07 02:54, Commander Kinsey wrote:

On Mon, 07 Nov 2022 01:44:28 -0000, Carlos E.R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2022-11-07 00:57, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 23:42:56 -0000, Carlos E.R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2022-11-07 00:31, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 23:09:41 -0000, Carlos E.R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2022-11-06 23:09, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 21:56:29 -0000, David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid
wrote:

On 06/11/2022 21:37, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Do you really want a meter which can overread by a factor of 5,
in particular on eco-stuff like LED lights!

Its worse than that, you pay for it on your bill.  Mine costs
0.026667€ per day. I also have a contracted peak load. Exceed this
and it cuts out. That costs 0.091474 Eur/kW/day and changing the
value costs a fair amount.

What is your peak load?  Is this certain times of day only?  I can
draw 24kW, if that reduced I\'d be fucking angry.

LOL

Of course I don\'t often use that much, I\'ve never gone over 18kW, and
not over 8kW for any long period.

What do you need that much electricity for, you run a forge at home?
:-D

An electric shower is 9kW.

Mine is zero, it runs on butane gas.

Unusual.

Not here.

Here, an electrical water flash heater is very uncommon.

When I use the electric water
heater, it is 1 Kw, buty mine is half that.

WTF?  That might heat a cup of coffee in a an hour.

It is a hot water tank. Very common here. It heats during the night, on
a clock. And as butane is cheaper, I have it disabled.

An electric cooker is 8kW.

Mine is 1.8 Kw, induction. Very fast.

Induction doesn\'t make it more than 100% efficient.

You are badly informed

In the UK we have things called cookers.  2 ovens, 1 grill, and 4 hobs.

I have two gas hobs, two induction hobs, one independent oven, one
microwave.

An induction hob uses less electricity and heats faster.

Does everyone in
your country have cold food and cold showers or use gas?

Nope, nope, and maybe.

Sissies, sissies, and I thought the EU was banning gas?

We have so much gas that we have to tell gas ships to wait for days to
be unloaded while we burn some gas to make free space to get more gas :-D


--
Cheers, Carlos.

 

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2022-11-07 02:59, Commander Kinsey wrote:

On Mon, 07 Nov 2022 01:45:14 -0000, Carlos E.R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2022-11-07 00:58, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 23:45:03 -0000, Carlos E.R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2022-11-07 00:29, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 23:06:29 -0000, Carlos E.R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2022-11-06 22:37, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Do you really want a meter which can overread by a factor of 5, in
particular on eco-stuff like LED lights!

Where do you get that idea?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4288180/Smart-meters-readings-SEVEN-times-high.html

\"smart meters can give readings that are SEVEN times too high because
dimmer switches and LED bulbs confuse the devices
Smart meters can be confused by modern dimmer switches and LED bulbs
Meters come up with readings that are 582 per cent higher than they
should be
It comes after an SSE had to apologise to customers earlier this week
after malfunctioning smart meters handed them bills for as much as
£44,000 a day
The Government wants them installed in all 26million homes by 2020\"

That last line, ROFL!  It\'s now 2022 and only half of us have one.


Well, no such thing here. This is a modern country :-D

Didn\'t you recently have a terrible poverty?  About a decade ago?

Nope.

Spain, right?  I watched a Top Gear episode about 10 years ago which
showed completely empty areas of Spain where you\'d all moved out.

LOL.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

 

[Peeler]

On Mon, 7 Nov 2022 10:49:55 +0100, cretinous Carlos E.R., another brain dead
troll-feeding senile ASSHOLE, blathered


> And me would be without electricity for weeks.

So for how many weeks will this sick shit here still go on, you
troll-feeding senile CRETIN? Until the troll is fed up with you?

 

[Peeler]

On Mon, 7 Nov 2022 10:56:41 +0100, cretinous Carlos E.R., another brain dead
troll-feeding senile ASSHOLE, blathered

We have so much gas that we have to tell gas ships to wait for days to
be unloaded while we burn some gas to make free space to get more gas :-D

You two cretins have so much shit in your sick heads that you can go on
spouting your shit for days and weeks! Wanna bet, senile shithead?

 

[Peeler]

On Mon, 7 Nov 2022 10:57:25 +0100, cretinous Carlos E.R., another brain dead
troll-feeding senile ASSHOLE, blathered

Spain, right?  I watched a Top Gear episode about 10 years ago which
showed completely empty areas of Spain where you\'d all moved out.

LOL.

Hard to tell which of you two idiots is the bigger laughing stock. <BG>

 

[Peeler]

On Mon, 7 Nov 2022 08:50:37 +0000, Martin Brown, another troll-feeding
senile shithead, bullshitted:

TWO?!

Yes! In rural UK the main distribution is full three phase on the main
lines but small villages are typically on spurs with just two live taps
and earth. Farmers have been quoted insane prices to be put on 3 phase.

LOL! The troll sets out another idiotic bait, asks another retarded
question, and some troll-feeding senile asshole will happily hop along to
instantly feed that attention-starved Scottish wanker, time and again!

 

[Max Demian]

On 06/11/2022 21:02, Commander Kinsey wrote:

On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 20:50:10 -0000, Tim+ <tim.downie@gmail.com> wrote:

As has been explained, reducing voltage is a crap idea. You can email
folk
and ask them to reduce consumption at peak time though. I got refunds
last
December for doing this.

Not so accurate though.  Could they get you to turn things off at a few
seconds notice?

Eventually when we’re all on smart meters, more variable tariffs will
become available that will encourage this behaviour will become the norm.

No smart meter will ever be installed in this house.

I don\'t have one personally, but the supply to the common areas of my
block does and the supplier erroneously turned it off a couple of weeks
ago. It was three days before they could be persuaded to turn it back
on, so we lost the door entry system, porch and flood lights, lights in
the stairways and passages - the emergency lighting failed after a few
hours: before nightfall, the TV aerial distribution system and the fire
brigade were ringing up the management agents complaining that the fire
alarm was out of action.

--
Max Demian

 

[John Larkin]

On Mon, 7 Nov 2022 09:03:08 -0000, \"Brian Gaff\" <brian1gaff@gmail.com>
wrote:

Don\'t be daft, most modern gear has switch mode psus and they usually have a
very vvery wide range of voltages, so they can build one model for the
world.

A SMPS usually has a negative input impedance. As the line voltage
drops, the current increases.

 

[John Larkin]

On Mon, 7 Nov 2022 20:00:53 +1100, Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid>
wrote:

On 07-Nov-22 8:47 am, David Wade wrote:
On 06/11/2022 20:55, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 20:23:04 -0000, Mark Lloyd <not.email@all.invalid
wrote:

On 11/6/22 09:06, Commander Kinsey wrote:

[snip]

The other answers disagree, some loads would reduce, resistive heating
for example (including washing machine heaters).

The heaters are often temperature controlled, and will run longer to
make up for the reduced power.

But the idea is to reduce peak load.  Spreading that out for longer is
exactly what they\'re after.

If the peak load reduction is needed over say an hour, then as it only
takes a few minutes to boil a kettle or heat up a washing machine it
will make no difference. You will simply have more kettles on at the
same time. In fact it could make the peak load higher.

Assuming it takes five minutes when the voltage is full, and folks put
their kettles on sequentially, you load is one kettle.

If it goes up to 6 minutes but we still want 12 kettles per hour then
you need to start the second kettle while the first is still boiling, so
the load goes up to two kettles for one minute...


It\'s worse than that. All the time that the kettle is heating, it\'s
losing heat to the environment. So reduce the voltage, and thus power,
and it takes more energy to boil a kettleful, since more is wasted in
the process.

Right. It\'s inefficient to take an hour to heat a kettle to boiling.

Sylvia.

Mandatory staggering of tea times would help.

We heat our kettle with gas. All that heat winds up in the house,
which usually needs it. An open flame is a more efficient heater than
a gas furnace; no heat is vented.

 

[Max Demian]

On 06/11/2022 18:48, Tim+ wrote:

Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote:

Even without that the motor would be on for longer as they have thermostats.

Actually my fridge freezer might as well not have one as it rarely turns
off. Ice forms inside the fridge part and you can just about freeze
vodka in an ice cube tray so it must be about -25C.

Have you measured how much that is costing you? Fridges are potentially a
fairly major household power consumer these days now that lighting has
become so much more efficient. You really don’t want a fridge that’s
working harder than it needs to 24/7.

A power monitoring plug can be had for less than £15 and is a useful tool.

I\'m not in a position to replace it as it came with the flat. And it\'s a
bit of a squeeze to fit in the alcove. I can\'t clean the fridge part
properly as the door doesn\'t open past 90 degrees or so I can\'t remove
the shelves or drawer.

I tried to measure the consumption by timing the spinning wheel of the
meter: I used 104W with it on and 58W with it off so I suppose the FF
uses 46W or so.

--
Max Demian

 

[Max Demian]

On 06/11/2022 19:49, Bob F wrote:

On 11/6/2022 9:53 AM, Max Demian wrote:
On 06/11/2022 17:05, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 16:49:13 -0000, David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid
wrote:

Even a modern fridge has in effect a switched mode PSU so a variable
frequency
inverter drive to the motor.

Even without that the motor would be on for longer as they have
thermostats.

Actually my fridge freezer might as well not have one as it rarely
turns off. Ice forms inside the fridge part and you can just about
freeze vodka in an ice cube tray so it must be about -25C.

Have you considered adjusting it?

It\'s set to 1, which is next to off, so I assume that\'s the minimum
refrigeration.

--
Max Demian

 

[Max Demian]

On 06/11/2022 23:57, Commander Kinsey wrote:

On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 23:42:56 -0000, Carlos E.R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2022-11-07 00:31, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 23:09:41 -0000, Carlos E.R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2022-11-06 23:09, Commander Kinsey wrote:

What is your peak load?  Is this certain times of day only?  I can
draw 24kW, if that reduced I\'d be fucking angry.

LOL

Of course I don\'t often use that much, I\'ve never gone over 18kW, and
not over 8kW for any long period.

What do you need that much electricity for, you run a forge at home? :-D

An electric shower is 9kW.  An electric cooker is 8kW.  Does everyone in
your country have cold food and cold showers or use gas?

In my case, a supercomputer.

What\'s that, a ZX81 with a 16kB RAM pack?

--
Max Demian

 

[Max Demian]

On 07/11/2022 11:27, John Larkin wrote:

On Mon, 7 Nov 2022 20:00:53 +1100, Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid
wrote:
On 07-Nov-22 8:47 am, David Wade wrote:
On 06/11/2022 20:55, Commander Kinsey wrote:

But the idea is to reduce peak load.  Spreading that out for longer is
exactly what they\'re after.

If the peak load reduction is needed over say an hour, then as it only
takes a few minutes to boil a kettle or heat up a washing machine it
will make no difference. You will simply have more kettles on at the
same time. In fact it could make the peak load higher.

Assuming it takes five minutes when the voltage is full, and folks put
their kettles on sequentially, you load is one kettle.

If it goes up to 6 minutes but we still want 12 kettles per hour then
you need to start the second kettle while the first is still boiling, so
the load goes up to two kettles for one minute...


It\'s worse than that. All the time that the kettle is heating, it\'s
losing heat to the environment. So reduce the voltage, and thus power,
and it takes more energy to boil a kettleful, since more is wasted in
the process.

Right. It\'s inefficient to take an hour to heat a kettle to boiling.

Mandatory staggering of tea times would help.

Do you really want Big Brother telling you when you can eat? I suppose
we could all eat in communal dining halls and drink Victory (ersatz) Coffee.

They could ban adverts on TV to stop everyone from switching the kettle
on at the same time.

--
Max Demian

 

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2022-11-07 13:02, Max Demian wrote:

On 07/11/2022 11:27, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 7 Nov 2022 20:00:53 +1100, Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid
wrote:

....

Mandatory staggering of tea times would help.

Do you really want Big Brother telling you when you can eat? I suppose
we could all eat in communal dining halls and drink Victory (ersatz)
Coffee.

They could ban adverts on TV to stop everyone from switching the kettle
on at the same time.

LOL :-DDD

Or they could stagger the adverts on different stations


--
Cheers, Carlos.

 

[server]

On Mon, 07 Nov 2022 02:02:18 -0000, \"Commander Kinsey\"
<CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

On Mon, 07 Nov 2022 01:51:16 -0000, <hubops@ccanoemail.com> wrote:

It\'s not just distribution stations that are supplied from
the sub-transmission feeders - commercial, industrial,
residential, etc .. much with fixed tap transformers.

Why are they still fixed tap?

Cost and reliability, I\'d guess.
The feeder voltage is well regulated.

My local substation (was? they just replaced it after it got damaged
due to somebody shorting something - no fuses, doh!) is fixed tap,
but adjustable manually.
They refused to adjust it to lower my high voltage
because they\'d give someone else low voltage.

There are always fuses < or breakers > - sometimes they
are a little slow or sometimes the nature of the fault is such
that catastrophic damage occurs regardless. I\'ve seen the
aftermath of a 500 kV ~750 MVA transformer splitting open
and spilling it\'s guts .. poop happens.
The solution for your high voltage vs low end-voltage
can be complicated and expensive to resolve - involving
installing in-line regulating transformers or capacitor banks ..
possibly on more-than-one feeder ..
John T.

 

[server]

On Mon, 7 Nov 2022 08:50:37 +0000, Martin Brown
<\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

This happens in rural locations when one phase out of two supplying a
village goes down and the remaining live phase is left taking the strain.

TWO?!

Yes! In rural UK the main distribution is full three phase on the main
lines but small villages are typically on spurs with just two live taps
and earth. Farmers have been quoted insane prices to be put on 3 phase.

Are you sure it isn\'t 1 primary phase ? plus neutral -
which feeds center-tapped transformers that provide
2 hots + neutral to the customer.
< that is the North American way >
... which would save many millions of miles of primary conductor
and insulators ... compared to 2 primary lines.
John T.

 

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Monday, November 7, 2022 at 8:48:13 PM UTC+11, Carlos E.R. wrote:

On 2022-11-07 10:00, Sylvia Else wrote:
On 07-Nov-22 8:47 am, David Wade wrote:
On 06/11/2022 20:55, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 20:23:04 -0000, Mark Lloyd <not....@all.invalid> wrote:
On 11/6/22 09:06, Commander Kinsey wrote:

[snip]

The thing is, the rate of heat loss is proportional to the temperature. \\

Not always.

Heat loss by conduction is proportional to the temperature difference.

Heat loss by natural convection is proportional to the temperature difference squared, and the rate goes up quite a bit when the convection currents become turbulent

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rayleigh_number

Heat loss by radiation rises as the fourth power of the absolute temperature of the radiator, which is even worse.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Peeler]

On Mon, 7 Nov 2022 11:15:57 +0000, Max Dumb, the REAL dumb, notorious,
troll-feeding senile idiot, blathered again:


> I don\'t have one personally, but the supply to the common areas of my

Good grief! Are you aware how OFTEN that attention-starved trplling wanker
\"discussed\" already exactly the same crap in his need for attention, you
demented troll-feeding senile asshole! And now he keeps baiting you senile
assholes with the same old shit ...simply he was so successful when he first
used it on you! <VBG>

 

[Peeler]

On Mon, 7 Nov 2022 12:05:20 +0000, Max Dumb, the REAL dumb, notorious,
troll-feeding senile idiot, blathered again:


> What\'s that, a ZX81 with a 16kB RAM pack?

What\'s that but yet more fodder for the attention-starved trolling wanker,
you dumb troll-feeding asshole?

 

[Peeler]

On Mon, 07 Nov 2022 08:05:37 -0500, hubops@ccanoemail.com, another brain
dead, troll-feeding, senile CRETIN, blathered again:

There are always fuses < or breakers > - sometimes they
are a little slow or sometimes the nature of the fault is such
that catastrophic damage occurs regardless. I\'ve seen the
aftermath of a 500 kV ~750 MVA transformer splitting open
and spilling it\'s guts .. poop happens.
The solution for your high voltage vs low end-voltage

The solution to ALL his problems is: DONT\' FEED THE TROLL, senile shithead!!