Mains power voltage drop to reduce usage?...

[ke...@kjwdesigns.com]

On Sunday, 6 November 2022 at 12:23:11 UTC-8, Mark Lloyd wrote:
....

The other answers disagree, some loads would reduce, resistive heating
for example (including washing machine heaters).

The heaters are often temperature controlled, and will run longer to
make up for the reduced power.

....

The frequency of the grid can be changed dynamically to control the loads that have appropriate controllers.

This is used to some extent in the UK to control the demand.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_demand_(electric_power)

A similar technique is used in California to control both generation (such as residential solar) and loads to avoid system instability. The frequency changes are only on the order of 1-2Hz away from nominal so it isn\'t enough to trouble most loads.

PG&E were offering residential customers a one time payment to allow the installation of a module that would disable air conditioning at times of peak stress. Large customers also can do this on a bigger scale.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility_frequency#Frequency_and_load

kw

 

[Vir Campestris]

On 06/11/2022 21:21, hubops@ccanoemail.com wrote:

If by brownout you mean a system voltage reduction < ?
In North America, typical voltage reduction is:
A 3% voltage reduction will lead to about a 1.5% reduction in total
energy consumption (for a load of 20,000 MW this represents about 300
MW)
A 5% voltage reduction will lead to about a 2.6% reduction (for a load
of 20,000 MW, this represents about 520 MW
.. see if this link below works < ? > :
The paragraphs on Voltage Reductions are about half-way through.

https://www.ieso.ca/-/media/Files/IESO/Document-Library/training/ORGuide.ashx

The vast majority of customers will never notice.
Your normal household supply of 124 drops to 118 - maybe -
... if the distribution transformer doesn\'t have a tap-changer
to compensate for the grid / sub-transmission 5 % reduction.
John T.

Page 7. I went and looked.

That\'s very odd. My lights might possibly be voltage sensitive, but ****
all else is.

If the kettle is using less power to boil water it will stay on longer.

Averaged over a lot of houses that would mean no change.

The heating is on a thermostat, and if the power output drops it will
stay on longer (1). Giving the same power use, but spread differently.

Andy
--
(1) Actually my house heating is oil... but this is true of electric
systems.

 

[Peeler]

On 6 Nov 2022 21:03:10 GMT, Dim+, another brain dead troll-feeding senile
ASSHOLE, blathered:


> You think they¢re all the same?

You think he thinks, Dim+, you troll-feeding senile ASSHOLE? He just TROLLS
....and very successfully too! Even while he knows that YOU know that he IS
just a trolling wanker. And that he STILL gets each of you senile idiots,
EVERY time! LOL

 

[Peeler]

On Sun, 6 Nov 2022 21:55:19 +0100, Carlos E.R., another brain dead
troll-feeding senile ASSHOLE, blathered


> I have it on my heat pump.

YOU got your big mouth on the unwashed Scottish wanker\'s cock again, you
troll-feeding senile CRETIN!

 

[server]

On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 21:36:09 -0000, \"Commander Kinsey\"
<CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 21:21:59 -0000, <hubops@ccanoemail.com> wrote:

On Sun, 6 Nov 2022 21:55:19 +0100, \"Carlos E.R.\"
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:



A traditional fridge could burn out on a brown out, the motor would
overheat trying to compensate.
The electricity companies know this, and will not do a brownout, but
switch off completely. Or do rolling blackouts.



If by brownout you mean a system voltage reduction < ?
In North America, typical voltage reduction is:
A 3% voltage reduction will lead to about a 1.5% reduction in total
energy consumption (for a load of 20,000 MW this represents about 300
MW)
A 5% voltage reduction will lead to about a 2.6% reduction (for a load
of 20,000 MW, this represents about 520 MW
.. see if this link below works < ? > :
The paragraphs on Voltage Reductions are about half-way through.

https://www.ieso.ca/-/media/Files/IESO/Document-Library/training/ORGuide.ashx

The vast majority of customers will never notice.
Your normal household supply of 124 drops to 118 - maybe -
... if the distribution transformer doesn\'t have a tap-changer
to compensate for the grid / sub-transmission 5 % reduction.
John T.

In the UK the legislation dictates the power company
should provide me with 230V +/- ***10%***
I actually get 241 to 256V, so sometimes out of limits.
But they can\'t fix it without having someone at the other
end of the street have too low a voltage.
I\'m next to the transformer.

They run it on the higher side of the range
to reduce line losses.

some power quality limits here - just as an example :

https://www.hydroone.com/business-services/commercial-industrial-generators-and-ldcs/power-quality/power-quality-definitions

John T.

 

[David Wade]

On 06/11/2022 21:37, Commander Kinsey wrote:

On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 21:33:29 -0000, David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> wrote:

On 06/11/2022 20:50, Tim+ wrote:
Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 18:20:18 -0000, Cursitor Doom
cd@notformail.com> wrote:

On Sun, 6 Nov 2022 17:13:16 +0000, SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk
wrote:

On 06/11/2022 15:10, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 09:43:37 -0000, <Wanderer@noplace.com> wrote:

Sure, but we would need to replace all electrical devices by the
their
Thevenin Equivalent.

Seriously, All electrical device need to use a certain amount of
power. We often convert the mains voltages and currents to other
voltages and currents that devices can consume. There are probably
some power supplies that could use the lower voltages and
frequencies
and get the same power. Some motors and clocks may run slower
but some
would not work at all. If we still had incandescent light bulbs
they
would be dimmer, the reason for the old term \'brown out\'. Most
modern
devices would not work and might even be damaged.

So No.

A device getting damaged by not enough power is screaming of bad
design.

Not necessarily. We have a \"guaranteed\" minimum and maximum supply
voltage. Why should a company spend extra designing and installing
protection against supplies (not temporary aberrations) outside them?

Yes, all sorts of issues if a power company messes around with the
voltage and frequency. If a consumer wants to attempt  saving money in
this way then the obvious thing to try would be a variac. It won\'t
change the frequency but does enable one to reduce the supply voltage
easily to whatever device you wish to reduce the power to.

Not the same thing at all.  If you want to reduce usage, you turn
things
down or off.  If the whole country wants to do that over a short period
due to high demand, they can\'t very well phone everyone up and tell you
to delay your coffee for half an hour, they have to lower the voltage.


As has been explained, reducing voltage is a crap idea. You can email
folk
and ask them to reduce consumption at peak time though. I got refunds
last
December for doing this.

Eventually when we’re all on smart meters, more variable tariffs will
become available that will encourage this behaviour will become the
norm.

In Spain, where every one has to have a Smart Meter, there are three
different price bands.

I wasn\'t aware Spain was communist.

Well given its not invested in energy infra-structure so supply is often
\"flaky\" makes it feel a bit like that at times.

Do you really want a meter which can overread by a factor of 5, in
particular on eco-stuff like LED lights!

Its worse than that, you pay for it on your bill. Mine costs 0.026667€
per day. I also have a contracted peak load. Exceed this and it cuts
out. That costs 0.091474 Eur/kW/day and changing the value costs a fair
amount.

Dave

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 21:47:12 -0000, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <keith@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:

On Sunday, 6 November 2022 at 12:23:11 UTC-8, Mark Lloyd wrote:
...

The other answers disagree, some loads would reduce, resistive heating
for example (including washing machine heaters).

The heaters are often temperature controlled, and will run longer to
make up for the reduced power.

...

The frequency of the grid can be changed dynamically to control the loads that have appropriate controllers.

This is used to some extent in the UK to control the demand.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_demand_(electric_power)

A similar technique is used in California to control both generation (such as residential solar) and loads to avoid system instability. The frequency changes are only on the order of 1-2Hz away from nominal so it isn\'t enough to trouble most loads.

PG&E were offering residential customers a one time payment to allow the installation of a module that would disable air conditioning at times of peak stress. Large customers also can do this on a bigger scale.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility_frequency#Frequency_and_load

I thought this was done by radio? That\'s how my neighbour\'s heating was controlled.

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 21:47:37 -0000, David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> wrote:

On 06/11/2022 20:55, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 20:23:04 -0000, Mark Lloyd <not.email@all.invalid
wrote:

On 11/6/22 09:06, Commander Kinsey wrote:

[snip]

The other answers disagree, some loads would reduce, resistive heating
for example (including washing machine heaters).

The heaters are often temperature controlled, and will run longer to
make up for the reduced power.

But the idea is to reduce peak load. Spreading that out for longer is
exactly what they\'re after.

If the peak load reduction is needed over say an hour, then as it only
takes a few minutes to boil a kettle or heat up a washing machine it
will make no difference. You will simply have more kettles on at the
same time. In fact it could make the peak load higher.

Assuming it takes five minutes when the voltage is full, and folks put
their kettles on sequentially, you load is one kettle.

If it goes up to 6 minutes but we still want 12 kettles per hour then
you need to start the second kettle while the first is still boiling, so
the load goes up to two kettles for one minute...

You\'re looking at not enough kettles. Think of it more simplistically. Every kettle will be on at a later time than it would have been, you spread the peak use over a longer period.

If they want to reduce annual load, they just need to turn up the cost
of electricity, but the stupid UK government is now subsidising it, so
we\'re just carrying on using as much as we like.

If we want to reduce greenhouse emissions then gas needs to be more
expensive.....

Could we stick to reality please?

... you can make green electricity but not green gas, (well you can make
green hydrogen but it uses lots more electricity)

Gas just creates CO2 and water, zero pollution.

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 21:48:57 -0000, Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On 06/11/2022 21:21, hubops@ccanoemail.com wrote:
If by brownout you mean a system voltage reduction < ?
In North America, typical voltage reduction is:
A 3% voltage reduction will lead to about a 1.5% reduction in total
energy consumption (for a load of 20,000 MW this represents about 300
MW)
A 5% voltage reduction will lead to about a 2.6% reduction (for a load
of 20,000 MW, this represents about 520 MW
.. see if this link below works < ? > :
The paragraphs on Voltage Reductions are about half-way through.

https://www.ieso.ca/-/media/Files/IESO/Document-Library/training/ORGuide.ashx

The vast majority of customers will never notice.
Your normal household supply of 124 drops to 118 - maybe -
... if the distribution transformer doesn\'t have a tap-changer
to compensate for the grid / sub-transmission 5 % reduction.
John T.

Page 7. I went and looked.

That\'s very odd. My lights might possibly be voltage sensitive, but ****
all else is.

If the kettle is using less power to boil water it will stay on longer.

Averaged over a lot of houses that would mean no change.

The heating is on a thermostat, and if the power output drops it will
stay on longer (1). Giving the same power use, but spread differently.

It\'s the spread they\'re after.

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 21:55:28 -0000, <hubops@ccanoemail.com> wrote:

On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 21:36:09 -0000, \"Commander Kinsey\"
CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 21:21:59 -0000, <hubops@ccanoemail.com> wrote:

On Sun, 6 Nov 2022 21:55:19 +0100, \"Carlos E.R.\"
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:



A traditional fridge could burn out on a brown out, the motor would
overheat trying to compensate.
The electricity companies know this, and will not do a brownout, but
switch off completely. Or do rolling blackouts.



If by brownout you mean a system voltage reduction < ?
In North America, typical voltage reduction is:
A 3% voltage reduction will lead to about a 1.5% reduction in total
energy consumption (for a load of 20,000 MW this represents about 300
MW)
A 5% voltage reduction will lead to about a 2.6% reduction (for a load
of 20,000 MW, this represents about 520 MW
.. see if this link below works < ? > :
The paragraphs on Voltage Reductions are about half-way through.

https://www.ieso.ca/-/media/Files/IESO/Document-Library/training/ORGuide.ashx

The vast majority of customers will never notice.
Your normal household supply of 124 drops to 118 - maybe -
... if the distribution transformer doesn\'t have a tap-changer
to compensate for the grid / sub-transmission 5 % reduction.
John T.

In the UK the legislation dictates the power company
should provide me with 230V +/- ***10%***
I actually get 241 to 256V, so sometimes out of limits.
But they can\'t fix it without having someone at the other
end of the street have too low a voltage.
I\'m next to the transformer.


They run it on the higher side of the range
to reduce line losses.

In the good old days the UK was 250V. Fucking Europeans....

some power quality limits here - just as an example :

https://www.hydroone.com/business-services/commercial-industrial-generators-and-ldcs/power-quality/power-quality-definitions

Too much info, quote the bit you want me to read.

 

[danny burstein]

In <op.1u8ec8x9mvhs6z@ryzen.home> \"Commander Kinsey\" <CK1@nospam.com> writes:

[snip]

I wasn\'t aware Spain was communist.

Do you really want a meter which can overread by a factor of 5, in parti=
cular on eco-stuff like LED lights!

Do your teachers, especially physics, math, and social studies,
know how dumb you\'re sounding these days?

--
_____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
dannyb@panix.com
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 21:56:29 -0000, David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> wrote:

On 06/11/2022 21:37, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 21:33:29 -0000, David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> wrote:

On 06/11/2022 20:50, Tim+ wrote:
Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 18:20:18 -0000, Cursitor Doom
cd@notformail.com> wrote:

On Sun, 6 Nov 2022 17:13:16 +0000, SteveW <steve@walker-family.me..uk
wrote:

On 06/11/2022 15:10, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 09:43:37 -0000, <Wanderer@noplace.com> wrote:

Sure, but we would need to replace all electrical devices by the
their
Thevenin Equivalent.

Seriously, All electrical device need to use a certain amount of
power. We often convert the mains voltages and currents to other
voltages and currents that devices can consume. There are probably
some power supplies that could use the lower voltages and
frequencies
and get the same power. Some motors and clocks may run slower
but some
would not work at all. If we still had incandescent light bulbs
they
would be dimmer, the reason for the old term \'brown out\'. Most
modern
devices would not work and might even be damaged.

So No.

A device getting damaged by not enough power is screaming of bad
design.

Not necessarily. We have a \"guaranteed\" minimum and maximum supply
voltage. Why should a company spend extra designing and installing
protection against supplies (not temporary aberrations) outside them?

Yes, all sorts of issues if a power company messes around with the
voltage and frequency. If a consumer wants to attempt saving money in
this way then the obvious thing to try would be a variac. It won\'t
change the frequency but does enable one to reduce the supply voltage
easily to whatever device you wish to reduce the power to.

Not the same thing at all. If you want to reduce usage, you turn
things
down or off. If the whole country wants to do that over a short period
due to high demand, they can\'t very well phone everyone up and tell you
to delay your coffee for half an hour, they have to lower the voltage.


As has been explained, reducing voltage is a crap idea. You can email
folk
and ask them to reduce consumption at peak time though. I got refunds
last
December for doing this.

Eventually when we’re all on smart meters, more variable tariffs will
become available that will encourage this behaviour will become the
norm.

In Spain, where every one has to have a Smart Meter, there are three
different price bands.

I wasn\'t aware Spain was communist.

Well given its not invested in energy infra-structure so supply is often
\"flaky\" makes it feel a bit like that at times.

I\'ve heard some parts of Italy only have a 3kW supply to each house! They have problems when buying 3kW kettles!

Do you really want a meter which can overread by a factor of 5, in
particular on eco-stuff like LED lights!

Its worse than that, you pay for it on your bill. Mine costs 0.026667€
per day. I also have a contracted peak load. Exceed this and it cuts
out. That costs 0.091474 Eur/kW/day and changing the value costs a fair
amount.

What is your peak load? Is this certain times of day only? I can draw 24kW, if that reduced I\'d be fucking angry.

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 22:07:51 -0000, danny burstein <dannyb@panix.com> wrote:

In <op.1u8ec8x9mvhs6z@ryzen.home> \"Commander Kinsey\" <CK1@nospam.com> writes:

[snip]

I wasn\'t aware Spain was communist.

Do you really want a meter which can overread by a factor of 5, in parti=
cular on eco-stuff like LED lights!

Do your teachers, especially physics, math, and social studies,
know how dumb you\'re sounding these days?

I\'m 47. And the 5 factor is a fact.

 

[server]

On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 22:02:27 -0000, \"Commander Kinsey\"
<CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 21:47:12 -0000, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <keith@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:


...

The frequency of the grid can be changed dynamically to control the loads that have appropriate controllers.
This is used to some extent in the UK to control the demand.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_demand_(electric_power)
A similar technique is used in California to control both generation (such as residential solar) and loads to avoid system instability.
The frequency changes are only on the order of 1-2Hz away from nominal so it isn\'t enough to trouble most loads.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility_frequency#Frequency_and_load

Primary load is automatically shed - to maintain very stringent
system frequency limits. The big thermal generators are very fussy
about system frequency.

\" Small frequency deviations (e.g., 0.5 Hz on a 50 Hz or 60 Hz
network) will result in automatic load shedding or other
control actions to restore system frequency. \"

John T.

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 22:13:37 -0000, <hubops@ccanoemail.com> wrote:

On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 22:02:27 -0000, \"Commander Kinsey\"
CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 21:47:12 -0000, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <keith@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:


...

The frequency of the grid can be changed dynamically to control the loads that have appropriate controllers.
This is used to some extent in the UK to control the demand.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_demand_(electric_power)
A similar technique is used in California to control both generation (such as residential solar) and loads to avoid system instability.
The frequency changes are only on the order of 1-2Hz away from nominal so it isn\'t enough to trouble most loads.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility_frequency#Frequency_and_load




Primary load is automatically shed - to maintain very stringent
system frequency limits. The big thermal generators are very fussy
about system frequency.
\" Small frequency deviations (e.g., 0.5 Hz on a 50 Hz or 60 Hz
network) will result in automatic load shedding or other
control actions to restore system frequency. \"

Shedding what? I\'m aware they ramp up the steam to speed them up if they get too slow.

 

[Cindy Hamilton]

On 2022-11-06, Ralph Mowery <rmowery42@charter.net> wrote:

In article <op.1u73hbz8mvhs6z@ryzen.home>, CK1@nospam.com says...

Not necessarily. We have a \"guaranteed\" minimum and maximum supply
voltage. Why should a company spend extra designing and installing
protection against supplies (not temporary aberrations) outside them?

Because other things could cause lower voltage, like a wiring fault in the device or the building. Especially in dual voltage countries like the US where you can lose one live.




If the neutral line is lost or a bad connection the line voltage in a
house could have one side to be very low and the other side very high in
the US system.

Funny you should mention that. Our neutral broke in high winds
yesterday. Both remaining legs seem to be well balanced.

--
Cindy Hamilton

 

[Martin Brown]

On 06/11/2022 14:23, Commander Kinsey wrote:

Instead of rolling blackouts when there\'s a power shortage, why don\'t we
just allow (or deliberately) the voltage and frequency to drop?
Wouldn\'t that make a lot of devices use less?

Not any more.

Apart from resistive loads and motors almost all other consumer items
like TVs will simply draw more current at the lower voltage to maintain
a constant power output. My PC and other office kit will quite happily
run on 110v as will the LED lights. Incandescent lights are visibly
orange on that voltage and a kettle takes forever to boil.

This happens in rural locations when one phase out of two supplying a
village goes down and the remaining live phase is left taking the strain.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 22:30:36 -0000, Cindy Hamilton <hamilton@invalid.com> wrote:

On 2022-11-06, Ralph Mowery <rmowery42@charter.net> wrote:
In article <op.1u73hbz8mvhs6z@ryzen.home>, CK1@nospam.com says...

Not necessarily. We have a \"guaranteed\" minimum and maximum supply
voltage. Why should a company spend extra designing and installing
protection against supplies (not temporary aberrations) outside them?

Because other things could cause lower voltage, like a wiring fault in the device or the building. Especially in dual voltage countries like the US where you can lose one live.




If the neutral line is lost or a bad connection the line voltage in a
house could have one side to be very low and the other side very high in
the US system.

Funny you should mention that. Our neutral broke in high winds
yesterday. Both remaining legs seem to be well balanced.

How did the neutral break but the lives didn\'t?

As for well balanced, that depends how many people were using that broken neutral. If it was just to your house, chances are your loads are not balanced enough.

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 22:33:44 -0000, Martin Brown <\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

On 06/11/2022 14:23, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Instead of rolling blackouts when there\'s a power shortage, why don\'t we
just allow (or deliberately) the voltage and frequency to drop?
Wouldn\'t that make a lot of devices use less?

Not any more.

Apart from resistive loads and motors almost all other consumer items
like TVs will simply draw more current at the lower voltage to maintain
a constant power output. My PC and other office kit will quite happily
run on 110v as will the LED lights. Incandescent lights are visibly
orange on that voltage and a kettle takes forever to boil.

But you\'re referring to small things that use very little power. Normally, I can draw 6kW for computers.

This happens in rural locations when one phase out of two supplying a
village goes down and the remaining live phase is left taking the strain.

TWO?!

 

[Peeler]

On Sun, 6 Nov 2022 21:47:37 +0000, David Wade, another obviously brain dead,
troll-feeding senile ASSHOLE, blathered:


> If the peak load reduction is needed over say an hour, then as it only

You troll-feeding senile idiots STILL don\'t get it, though it\'s OBVIOUS what
this latest \"thread\" by the trolling Scottish wanker is really all about!
Goes to show just HOW senile you all are! LOL