Mains power voltage drop to reduce usage?...

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2022-11-06 20:37, Commander Kinsey wrote:

On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 19:15:34 -0000, Carlos E.R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2022-11-06 18:05, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 16:49:13 -0000, David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid
wrote:
On 06/11/2022 14:23, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Instead of rolling blackouts when there\'s a power shortage, why
don\'t we
just allow (or deliberately) the voltage and frequency to drop?
Wouldn\'t that make a lot of devices use less?

Recent research suggests \"no\" or perhaps not enough. At one time you
could buy transformers to reduce the houshold voltage with the aim of
reducing consumption. In the past where devices had conventional PSUs
and we had incandescence lights this worked.

What a ridiculous way to reduce power.  Why not just turn less lights
on, or use lower wattage bulbs?  And turn the heating thermostat down
instead of artificially throttling it?

With modern devices it doesn\'t really work well. Many devices have
switched mode PSU\'s which simply ramp up the input current to
compensate
for the lack of voltage so you don\'t save any power.

So TVs, computers, USB chargers and many LED lighting systems.

Yes, but a lot of stuff would use less - washing machine water heater,
electric water or house heating for example.

Those with switching supplies would compensate, taking more current, and
eventually burning when the voltage goes below design margins.
Otherwise, they would take the same power, so no gain.

They don\'t use those for heaters, only motors.  Why would you need it
for a resistive heater?

I have it on my heat pump.

And my purely resistive loads are controlled by thermostat, so if you
lower the voltage they stay on for a longer time, so the saving effect
on the network is nil.

And they shouldn\'t burn they should cut out, a switching supply is quite
intelligent.

Maybe. Maybe not. They can tell you that you submitted them to a voltage
out of specs. If it burns, sue the electrical company to pay you a new
device, because it is their fault.

A traditional fridge could burn out on a brown out, the motor would
overheat trying to compensate.

The electricity companies know this, and will not do a brownout, but
switch off completely. Or do rolling blackouts.


--
Cheers, Carlos.

 

[Peeler]

On Sun, 6 Nov 2022 21:43:02 +0100, Carlos E.R., another brain dead
troll-feeding senile ASSHOLE, blathered:

There is a type of electricity contract in which you accept the provider
will remotely switch off your heavy appliances to reduce power overall
for some time. In exchange, you pay less.

Rather ask yourself: What do YOU troll-feeding senile asshole get from
feeding the troll time and again? Some distraction from your senility and
misery? <G>

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 20:43:02 -0000, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2022-11-06 20:28, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 18:20:18 -0000, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com
wrote:

On Sun, 6 Nov 2022 17:13:16 +0000, SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk
wrote:

On 06/11/2022 15:10, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 09:43:37 -0000, <Wanderer@noplace.com> wrote:

Sure, but we would need to replace all electrical devices by the their
Thevenin Equivalent.

Seriously, All electrical device need to use a certain amount of
power. We often convert the mains voltages and currents to other
voltages and currents that devices can consume. There are probably
some power supplies that could use the lower voltages and frequencies
and get the same power. Some motors and clocks may run slower but some
would not work at all. If we still had incandescent light bulbs they
would be dimmer, the reason for the old term \'brown out\'. Most modern
devices would not work and might even be damaged.

So No.

A device getting damaged by not enough power is screaming of bad
design.

Not necessarily. We have a \"guaranteed\" minimum and maximum supply
voltage. Why should a company spend extra designing and installing
protection against supplies (not temporary aberrations) outside them?

Yes, all sorts of issues if a power company messes around with the
voltage and frequency. If a consumer wants to attempt saving money in
this way then the obvious thing to try would be a variac. It won\'t
change the frequency but does enable one to reduce the supply voltage
easily to whatever device you wish to reduce the power to.

Not the same thing at all. If you want to reduce usage, you turn things
down or off. If the whole country wants to do that over a short period
due to high demand, they can\'t very well phone everyone up and tell you
to delay your coffee for half an hour, they have to lower the voltage.

There is a type of electricity contract in which you accept the provider
will remotely switch off your heavy appliances to reduce power overall
for some time. In exchange, you pay less.

Is this available in the UK?

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 20:48:24 -0000, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2022-11-06 20:39, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 18:48:53 -0000, Tim+ <tim.downie@gmail.com> wrote:

Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote:

Even without that the motor would be on for longer as they have
thermostats.

Actually my fridge freezer might as well not have one as it rarely turns
off. Ice forms inside the fridge part and you can just about freeze
vodka in an ice cube tray so it must be about -25C.

Have you measured how much that is costing you? Fridges are
potentially a
fairly major household power consumer these days now that lighting has
become so much more efficient. You really don’t want a fridge that’s
working harder than it needs to 24/7.

Bullshit, a fridge or freezer uses 70W.

https://www.google.com/search?q=how+much+current+does+a+fridge+use&client=firefox-b-e&ei=ahpoY5TFAsy4kwXz9rD4Aw&oq=how+much+current+does+a+fridge+u&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnC4AQP4AQEaAhgCKgIIADIFEAAYgAQyBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB7CAgoQABhHGNYEGLADwgILEC4Y1AIYkQIYiwPCAgcQABhDGIsDwgIFEC4YgATCAgsQLhiABBjHARjRA8ICBBAAGEPCAgUQABiRAsICChAAGIAEGEYY_wHCAggQABiABBiLA5AGCEjlWFD3BVjSRnABeAHIAQCQAQCYAZ0BoAGiF6oBBDI3LjXiAwQgTRgB4gMEIEEYAOIDBCBGGACIBgE&sclient=gws-wiz-serp

Domestic fridge power consumption is typically between 100 and 250
watts. Over a full day, a fridge records between 1 to 2 kilowatt-hours
(kWh) of total energy usage, or about $150 per year per fridge.Nov 13, 2019

How Much Power a Fridge Uses - in Watts, Cost & kWh
https://reductionrevolution.com.au › blogs › how-to › frid...

BULLSHIT. I measured my fridge freezer, and it\'s old and inefficient. It\'s 70W.

One of the results from your first link actually said \"The average refrigerator uses 725 watts of power\"

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 20:50:10 -0000, Tim+ <tim.downie@gmail.com> wrote:

Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 18:20:18 -0000, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com> wrote:

On Sun, 6 Nov 2022 17:13:16 +0000, SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk
wrote:

On 06/11/2022 15:10, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 09:43:37 -0000, <Wanderer@noplace.com> wrote:

Sure, but we would need to replace all electrical devices by the their
Thevenin Equivalent.

Seriously, All electrical device need to use a certain amount of
power. We often convert the mains voltages and currents to other
voltages and currents that devices can consume. There are probably
some power supplies that could use the lower voltages and frequencies
and get the same power. Some motors and clocks may run slower but some
would not work at all. If we still had incandescent light bulbs they
would be dimmer, the reason for the old term \'brown out\'. Most modern
devices would not work and might even be damaged.

So No.

A device getting damaged by not enough power is screaming of bad design.

Not necessarily. We have a \"guaranteed\" minimum and maximum supply
voltage. Why should a company spend extra designing and installing
protection against supplies (not temporary aberrations) outside them?

Yes, all sorts of issues if a power company messes around with the
voltage and frequency. If a consumer wants to attempt saving money in
this way then the obvious thing to try would be a variac. It won\'t
change the frequency but does enable one to reduce the supply voltage
easily to whatever device you wish to reduce the power to.

Not the same thing at all. If you want to reduce usage, you turn things
down or off. If the whole country wants to do that over a short period
due to high demand, they can\'t very well phone everyone up and tell you
to delay your coffee for half an hour, they have to lower the voltage..

As has been explained, reducing voltage is a crap idea. You can email folk
and ask them to reduce consumption at peak time though. I got refunds last
December for doing this.

Not so accurate though. Could they get you to turn things off at a few seconds notice?

Eventually when we’re all on smart meters, more variable tariffs will
become available that will encourage this behaviour will become the norm.

No smart meter will ever be installed in this house.

 

[Bob F]

On 11/6/2022 12:09 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:

In article <op.1u78degtmvhs6z@ryzen.home>, CK1@nospam.com says...

Not the same thing at all. If you want to reduce usage, you turn things down or off. If the whole country wants to do that over a short period due to high demand, they can\'t very well phone everyone up and tell you to delay your coffee for half an hour, they have to lower the voltage.



A number of years ago the power company put on the television stationa a
message asking people to turn off things due to a power shortage. They
did and the next year the company asked to raise rates due to not
enoughpower was used.

Some have devices on the water heater and AC or heat pumps that allow
the power companies to shut them off. Mine has one on the heat pump and
saves me a few dollars on every bill just for having it.

\"A text asked millions of Californians to save energy. They paid heed,
averting blackouts\"

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2022-09-07/a-text-asked-millions-of-californians-to-save-energy-they-listened-averting-blackouts

 

[Tim+]

Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 18:48:53 -0000, Tim+ <tim.downie@gmail.com> wrote:

Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote:

Even without that the motor would be on for longer as they have thermostats.

Actually my fridge freezer might as well not have one as it rarely turns
off. Ice forms inside the fridge part and you can just about freeze
vodka in an ice cube tray so it must be about -25C.

Have you measured how much that is costing you? Fridges are potentially a
fairly major household power consumer these days now that lighting has
become so much more efficient. You really don’t want a fridge that’s
working harder than it needs to 24/7.

Bullshit, a fridge or freezer uses 70W.

You think they’re all the same? Weird. 70W equates to around £200 a year at
today’s electricity prices.

> Fuck all compared to total household usage. I\'m currently using 8kW.

You’ve clearly got money to burn. Not every one is so lucky.

Tim

--
Please don\'t feed the trolls

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 20:55:19 -0000, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2022-11-06 20:37, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 19:15:34 -0000, Carlos E.R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2022-11-06 18:05, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 16:49:13 -0000, David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid
wrote:
On 06/11/2022 14:23, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Instead of rolling blackouts when there\'s a power shortage, why
don\'t we
just allow (or deliberately) the voltage and frequency to drop?
Wouldn\'t that make a lot of devices use less?

Recent research suggests \"no\" or perhaps not enough. At one time you
could buy transformers to reduce the houshold voltage with the aim of
reducing consumption. In the past where devices had conventional PSUs
and we had incandescence lights this worked.

What a ridiculous way to reduce power. Why not just turn less lights
on, or use lower wattage bulbs? And turn the heating thermostat down
instead of artificially throttling it?

With modern devices it doesn\'t really work well. Many devices have
switched mode PSU\'s which simply ramp up the input current to
compensate
for the lack of voltage so you don\'t save any power.

So TVs, computers, USB chargers and many LED lighting systems.

Yes, but a lot of stuff would use less - washing machine water heater,
electric water or house heating for example.

Those with switching supplies would compensate, taking more current, and
eventually burning when the voltage goes below design margins.
Otherwise, they would take the same power, so no gain.

They don\'t use those for heaters, only motors. Why would you need it
for a resistive heater?

I have it on my heat pump.

Heat pumps are not resistive! That would defeat the whole purpose.

And my purely resistive loads are controlled by thermostat, so if you
lower the voltage they stay on for a longer time, so the saving effect
on the network is nil.

But the reduction of peak power is good. Not enough power between 5pm and 5:15pm because everyone turns their oven on, drop the voltage and everything takes longer, spreading the load into the next 15 minutes.

And they shouldn\'t burn they should cut out, a switching supply is quite
intelligent.

Maybe. Maybe not. They can tell you that you submitted them to a voltage
out of specs. If it burns, sue the electrical company to pay you a new
device, because it is their fault.

Bullshit. If the voltage is out of specs, the PSU should cut out. Very easy to implement.

A traditional fridge could burn out on a brown out, the motor would
overheat trying to compensate.

Very bad design. A simple thermal cutout would suffice.

The electricity companies know this, and will not do a brownout, but
switch off completely. Or do rolling blackouts.

Except they do.

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 21:02:43 -0000, Bob F <bobnospam@gmail.com> wrote:

On 11/6/2022 12:09 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article <op.1u78degtmvhs6z@ryzen.home>, CK1@nospam.com says...

Not the same thing at all. If you want to reduce usage, you turn things down or off. If the whole country wants to do that over a short period due to high demand, they can\'t very well phone everyone up and tell you to delay your coffee for half an hour, they have to lower the voltage.



A number of years ago the power company put on the television stationa a
message asking people to turn off things due to a power shortage. They
did and the next year the company asked to raise rates due to not
enoughpower was used.

Some have devices on the water heater and AC or heat pumps that allow
the power companies to shut them off. Mine has one on the heat pump and
saves me a few dollars on every bill just for having it.



\"A text asked millions of Californians to save energy. They paid heed,
averting blackouts\"

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2022-09-07/a-text-asked-millions-of-californians-to-save-energy-they-listened-averting-blackouts

I would ignore any such request, just as I ignore hosepipe bans. I pay them to provide a service. Build more reservoirs and power stations and give me what I pay for.

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 21:03:10 -0000, Tim+ <tim.downie@gmail.com> wrote:

Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 18:48:53 -0000, Tim+ <tim.downie@gmail.com> wrote:

Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote:

Even without that the motor would be on for longer as they have thermostats.

Actually my fridge freezer might as well not have one as it rarely turns
off. Ice forms inside the fridge part and you can just about freeze
vodka in an ice cube tray so it must be about -25C.

Have you measured how much that is costing you? Fridges are potentially a
fairly major household power consumer these days now that lighting has
become so much more efficient. You really don’t want a fridge that’s
working harder than it needs to 24/7.

Bullshit, a fridge or freezer uses 70W.

You think they’re all the same? Weird. 70W equates to around £200 a year at
today’s electricity prices.

And the average annual bill in the UK is £2500.

And did you also factor in the fridge switching on and off?

Fuck all compared to total household usage. I\'m currently using 8kW.

You’ve clearly got money to burn. Not every one is so lucky.

I get money back for most of that usage. And most people heat their homes, which uses way more than a fridge.

 

[farter]

On Mon, 07 Nov 2022 07:48:24 +1100, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid>
wrote:

On 2022-11-06 20:39, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 18:48:53 -0000, Tim+ <tim.downie@gmail.com> wrote:

Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote:

Even without that the motor would be on for longer as they have
thermostats.

Actually my fridge freezer might as well not have one as it rarely
turns
off. Ice forms inside the fridge part and you can just about freeze
vodka in an ice cube tray so it must be about -25C.

Have you measured how much that is costing you? Fridges are
potentially a
fairly major household power consumer these days now that lighting has
become so much more efficient. You really don’t want a fridge that’s
working harder than it needs to 24/7.
Bullshit, a fridge or freezer uses 70W.

https://www.google.com/search?q=how+much+current+does+a+fridge+use&client=firefox-b-e&ei=ahpoY5TFAsy4kwXz9rD4Aw&oq=how+much+current+does+a+fridge+u&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnC4AQP4AQEaAhgCKgIIADIFEAAYgAQyBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB7CAgoQABhHGNYEGLADwgILEC4Y1AIYkQIYiwPCAgcQABhDGIsDwgIFEC4YgATCAgsQLhiABBjHARjRA8ICBBAAGEPCAgUQABiRAsICChAAGIAEGEYY_wHCAggQABiABBiLA5AGCEjlWFD3BVjSRnABeAHIAQCQAQCYAZ0BoAGiF6oBBDI3LjXiAwQgTRgB4gMEIEEYAOIDBCBGGACIBgE&sclient=gws-wiz-serp

<https://www.google.com/search?q=how+much+current+does+a+fridge+use>

works just as well.

Domestic fridge power consumption is typically between 100 and 250
watts. Over a full day, a fridge records between 1 to 2 kilowatt-hours
(kWh) of total energy usage, or about $150 per year per fridge.Nov 13,
2019

How Much Power a Fridge Uses - in Watts, Cost & kWh
https://reductionrevolution.com.au › blogs › how-to › frid...

Doesnt work at all.

 

[server]

On Sun, 6 Nov 2022 21:55:19 +0100, \"Carlos E.R.\"
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

A traditional fridge could burn out on a brown out, the motor would
overheat trying to compensate.
The electricity companies know this, and will not do a brownout, but
switch off completely. Or do rolling blackouts.

If by brownout you mean a system voltage reduction < ? >
In North America, typical voltage reduction is:
A 3% voltage reduction will lead to about a 1.5% reduction in total
energy consumption (for a load of 20,000 MW this represents about 300
MW)
A 5% voltage reduction will lead to about a 2.6% reduction (for a load
of 20,000 MW, this represents about 520 MW
... see if this link below works < ? > :
The paragraphs on Voltage Reductions are about half-way through.

https://www.ieso.ca/-/media/Files/IESO/Document-Library/training/ORGuide.ashx

The vast majority of customers will never notice.
Your normal household supply of 124 drops to 118 - maybe -
.... if the distribution transformer doesn\'t have a tap-changer
to compensate for the grid / sub-transmission 5 % reduction.
John T.

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 20:48:24 -0000, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2022-11-06 20:39, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 18:48:53 -0000, Tim+ <tim.downie@gmail.com> wrote:

Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote:

Even without that the motor would be on for longer as they have
thermostats.

Actually my fridge freezer might as well not have one as it rarely turns
off. Ice forms inside the fridge part and you can just about freeze
vodka in an ice cube tray so it must be about -25C.

Have you measured how much that is costing you? Fridges are
potentially a
fairly major household power consumer these days now that lighting has
become so much more efficient. You really don’t want a fridge that’s
working harder than it needs to 24/7.

Bullshit, a fridge or freezer uses 70W.

https://www.google.com/search?q=how+much+current+does+a+fridge+use&client=firefox-b-e&ei=ahpoY5TFAsy4kwXz9rD4Aw&oq=how+much+current+does+a+fridge+u&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnC4AQP4AQEaAhgCKgIIADIFEAAYgAQyBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB7CAgoQABhHGNYEGLADwgILEC4Y1AIYkQIYiwPCAgcQABhDGIsDwgIFEC4YgATCAgsQLhiABBjHARjRA8ICBBAAGEPCAgUQABiRAsICChAAGIAEGEYY_wHCAggQABiABBiLA5AGCEjlWFD3BVjSRnABeAHIAQCQAQCYAZ0BoAGiF6oBBDI3LjXiAwQgTRgB4gMEIEEYAOIDBCBGGACIBgE&sclient=gws-wiz-serp

Domestic fridge power consumption is typically between 100 and 250
watts. Over a full day, a fridge records between 1 to 2 kilowatt-hours
(kWh) of total energy usage, or about $150 per year per fridge.Nov 13, 2019

How Much Power a Fridge Uses - in Watts, Cost & kWh
https://reductionrevolution.com.au › blogs › how-to › frid...

BULLSHIT. I measured my fridge freezer, and it\'s old and inefficient. It\'s 70W.

One of the results from your first link actually said \"The average refrigerator uses 725 watts of power\"

I wonder if they\'re including the defrost heater.

 

[David Wade]

On 06/11/2022 20:50, Tim+ wrote:

Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 18:20:18 -0000, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com> wrote:

On Sun, 6 Nov 2022 17:13:16 +0000, SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk
wrote:

On 06/11/2022 15:10, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 09:43:37 -0000, <Wanderer@noplace.com> wrote:

Sure, but we would need to replace all electrical devices by the their
Thevenin Equivalent.

Seriously, All electrical device need to use a certain amount of
power. We often convert the mains voltages and currents to other
voltages and currents that devices can consume. There are probably
some power supplies that could use the lower voltages and frequencies
and get the same power. Some motors and clocks may run slower but some
would not work at all. If we still had incandescent light bulbs they
would be dimmer, the reason for the old term \'brown out\'. Most modern
devices would not work and might even be damaged.

So No.

A device getting damaged by not enough power is screaming of bad design.

Not necessarily. We have a \"guaranteed\" minimum and maximum supply
voltage. Why should a company spend extra designing and installing
protection against supplies (not temporary aberrations) outside them?

Yes, all sorts of issues if a power company messes around with the
voltage and frequency. If a consumer wants to attempt saving money in
this way then the obvious thing to try would be a variac. It won\'t
change the frequency but does enable one to reduce the supply voltage
easily to whatever device you wish to reduce the power to.

Not the same thing at all. If you want to reduce usage, you turn things
down or off. If the whole country wants to do that over a short period
due to high demand, they can\'t very well phone everyone up and tell you
to delay your coffee for half an hour, they have to lower the voltage.


As has been explained, reducing voltage is a crap idea. You can email folk
and ask them to reduce consumption at peak time though. I got refunds last
December for doing this.

Eventually when we’re all on smart meters, more variable tariffs will
become available that will encourage this behaviour will become the norm.

In Spain, where every one has to have a Smart Meter, there are three
different price bands.

Tim

Dave

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 21:21:59 -0000, <hubops@ccanoemail.com> wrote:

On Sun, 6 Nov 2022 21:55:19 +0100, \"Carlos E.R.\"
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:



A traditional fridge could burn out on a brown out, the motor would
overheat trying to compensate.
The electricity companies know this, and will not do a brownout, but
switch off completely. Or do rolling blackouts.



If by brownout you mean a system voltage reduction < ?
In North America, typical voltage reduction is:
A 3% voltage reduction will lead to about a 1.5% reduction in total
energy consumption (for a load of 20,000 MW this represents about 300
MW)
A 5% voltage reduction will lead to about a 2.6% reduction (for a load
of 20,000 MW, this represents about 520 MW
.. see if this link below works < ? > :
The paragraphs on Voltage Reductions are about half-way through.

https://www.ieso.ca/-/media/Files/IESO/Document-Library/training/ORGuide.ashx

The vast majority of customers will never notice.
Your normal household supply of 124 drops to 118 - maybe -
... if the distribution transformer doesn\'t have a tap-changer
to compensate for the grid / sub-transmission 5 % reduction.
John T.

In the UK the legislation dictates the power company should provide me with 230V +/- ***10%***

I actually get 241 to 256V, so sometimes out of limits. But they can\'t fix it without having someone at the other end of the street have too low a voltage. I\'m next to the transformer. I use a UPS for anything fussy, which adjusts the voltage itself.

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 21:33:29 -0000, David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> wrote:

On 06/11/2022 20:50, Tim+ wrote:
Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 18:20:18 -0000, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com> wrote:

On Sun, 6 Nov 2022 17:13:16 +0000, SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk
wrote:

On 06/11/2022 15:10, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 09:43:37 -0000, <Wanderer@noplace.com> wrote:

Sure, but we would need to replace all electrical devices by the their
Thevenin Equivalent.

Seriously, All electrical device need to use a certain amount of
power. We often convert the mains voltages and currents to other
voltages and currents that devices can consume. There are probably
some power supplies that could use the lower voltages and frequencies
and get the same power. Some motors and clocks may run slower but some
would not work at all. If we still had incandescent light bulbs they
would be dimmer, the reason for the old term \'brown out\'. Most modern
devices would not work and might even be damaged.

So No.

A device getting damaged by not enough power is screaming of bad design.

Not necessarily. We have a \"guaranteed\" minimum and maximum supply
voltage. Why should a company spend extra designing and installing
protection against supplies (not temporary aberrations) outside them?

Yes, all sorts of issues if a power company messes around with the
voltage and frequency. If a consumer wants to attempt saving money in
this way then the obvious thing to try would be a variac. It won\'t
change the frequency but does enable one to reduce the supply voltage
easily to whatever device you wish to reduce the power to.

Not the same thing at all. If you want to reduce usage, you turn things
down or off. If the whole country wants to do that over a short period
due to high demand, they can\'t very well phone everyone up and tell you
to delay your coffee for half an hour, they have to lower the voltage.


As has been explained, reducing voltage is a crap idea. You can email folk
and ask them to reduce consumption at peak time though. I got refunds last
December for doing this.

Eventually when we’re all on smart meters, more variable tariffs will
become available that will encourage this behaviour will become the norm.

In Spain, where every one has to have a Smart Meter, there are three
different price bands.

I wasn\'t aware Spain was communist.

Do you really want a meter which can overread by a factor of 5, in particular on eco-stuff like LED lights!

 

[Peeler]

On 6 Nov 2022 20:50:10 GMT, Dim+, another brain dead troll-feeding senile
ASSHOLE, blathered:

> As has been explained,

Yeah, Dim+, you troll-feeding senile ASSHOLE, try to \"explain\" something to
a clinically insane, trolling wanker! LOL

 

[Peeler]

On Sun, 6 Nov 2022 21:48:24 +0100, Carlos E.R., another brain dead
troll-feeding senile ASSHOLE, blathered


> Domestic fridge power consumption is typically between 100 and 250

Can\'t you cocksucking senile assholes EVER get enough of the unwashed
Scottish wanker\'s cock. Must have something to with the special \"odour\" of
the unwashed wanker\'s cock! <G>

 

[Peeler]

On Mon, 07 Nov 2022 08:13:17 +1100, farter, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin\'s latest trollshit unread>

--
Richard addressing senile Rodent Speed:
\"Shit you\'re thick/pathetic excuse for a troll.\"
MID: <ogoa38$pul$1@news.mixmin.net>

 

[David Wade]

On 06/11/2022 20:55, Commander Kinsey wrote:

On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 20:23:04 -0000, Mark Lloyd <not.email@all.invalid
wrote:

On 11/6/22 09:06, Commander Kinsey wrote:

[snip]

The other answers disagree, some loads would reduce, resistive heating
for example (including washing machine heaters).

The heaters are often temperature controlled, and will run longer to
make up for the reduced power.

But the idea is to reduce peak load.  Spreading that out for longer is
exactly what they\'re after.

If the peak load reduction is needed over say an hour, then as it only
takes a few minutes to boil a kettle or heat up a washing machine it
will make no difference. You will simply have more kettles on at the
same time. In fact it could make the peak load higher.

Assuming it takes five minutes when the voltage is full, and folks put
their kettles on sequentially, you load is one kettle.

If it goes up to 6 minutes but we still want 12 kettles per hour then
you need to start the second kettle while the first is still boiling, so
the load goes up to two kettles for one minute...

If they want to reduce annual load, they just need to turn up the cost
of electricity, but the stupid UK government is now subsidising it, so
we\'re just carrying on using as much as we like.

If we want to reduce greenhouse emissions then gas needs to be more
expensive.....

.... you can make green electricity but not green gas, (well you can make
green hydrogen but it uses lots more electricity)

Dave