Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.
On 06/11/2022 17:05, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 16:49:13 -0000, David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> wrote:
On 06/11/2022 14:23, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Instead of rolling blackouts when there\'s a power shortage, why don\'t we
just allow (or deliberately) the voltage and frequency to drop?
Wouldn\'t that make a lot of devices use less?
Recent research suggests \"no\" or perhaps not enough. At one time you
could buy transformers to reduce the houshold voltage with the aim of
reducing consumption. In the past where devices had conventional PSUs
and we had incandescence lights this worked.
What a ridiculous way to reduce power. Why not just turn less lights
on, or use lower wattage bulbs? And turn the heating thermostat down
instead of artificially throttling it?
With modern devices it doesn\'t really work well. Many devices have
switched mode PSU\'s which simply ramp up the input current to compensate
for the lack of voltage so you don\'t save any power.
So TVs, computers, USB chargers and many LED lighting systems.
Yes, but a lot of stuff would use less - washing machine water heater,
electric water or house heating for example.
The first two and possibly the latter have thermostats so will just be
on for longer.
Even a modern fridge has in effect a switched mode PSU so a variable
frequency
inverter drive to the motor.
Even without that the motor would be on for longer as they have thermostats.
Actually my fridge freezer might as well not have one as it rarely turns
off. Ice forms inside the fridge part and you can just about freeze
vodka in an ice cube tray so it must be about -25C.
On 2022-11-06 18:05, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 16:49:13 -0000, David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> wrote:
On 06/11/2022 14:23, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Instead of rolling blackouts when there\'s a power shortage, why don\'t we
just allow (or deliberately) the voltage and frequency to drop?
Wouldn\'t that make a lot of devices use less?
Recent research suggests \"no\" or perhaps not enough. At one time you
could buy transformers to reduce the houshold voltage with the aim of
reducing consumption. In the past where devices had conventional PSUs
and we had incandescence lights this worked.
What a ridiculous way to reduce power. Why not just turn less lights
on, or use lower wattage bulbs? And turn the heating thermostat down
instead of artificially throttling it?
With modern devices it doesn\'t really work well. Many devices have
switched mode PSU\'s which simply ramp up the input current to compensate
for the lack of voltage so you don\'t save any power.
So TVs, computers, USB chargers and many LED lighting systems.
Yes, but a lot of stuff would use less - washing machine water heater,
electric water or house heating for example.
Those with switching supplies would compensate, taking more current, and
eventually burning when the voltage goes below design margins.
Otherwise, they would take the same power, so no gain.
Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote:
Even without that the motor would be on for longer as they have thermostats.
Actually my fridge freezer might as well not have one as it rarely turns
off. Ice forms inside the fridge part and you can just about freeze
vodka in an ice cube tray so it must be about -25C.
Have you measured how much that is costing you? Fridges are potentially a
fairly major household power consumer these days now that lighting has
become so much more efficient. You really donât want a fridge thatâs
working harder than it needs to 24/7.
Those with switching supplies would compensate, taking more current, and
eventually burning when the voltage goes below design margins.
Otherwise, they would take the same power, so no gain.
On 06/11/2022 17:05, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 16:49:13 -0000, David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid
wrote:
On 06/11/2022 14:23, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Instead of rolling blackouts when there\'s a power shortage, why
don\'t we
just allow (or deliberately) the voltage and frequency to drop?
Wouldn\'t that make a lot of devices use less?
Recent research suggests \"no\" or perhaps not enough. At one time you
could buy transformers to reduce the houshold voltage with the aim of
reducing consumption. In the past where devices had conventional PSUs
and we had incandescence lights this worked.
What a ridiculous way to reduce power. Why not just turn less lights
on, or use lower wattage bulbs? And turn the heating thermostat down
instead of artificially throttling it?
With modern devices it doesn\'t really work well. Many devices have
switched mode PSU\'s which simply ramp up the input current to compensate
for the lack of voltage so you don\'t save any power.
So TVs, computers, USB chargers and many LED lighting systems.
Yes, but a lot of stuff would use less - washing machine water heater,
electric water or house heating for example.
The first two and possibly the latter have thermostats so will just be
on for longer.
Even a modern fridge has in effect a switched mode PSU so a variable
frequency
inverter drive to the motor.
Even without that the motor would be on for longer as they have
thermostats.
Actually my fridge freezer might as well not have one as it rarely turns
off. Ice forms inside the fridge part and you can just about freeze
vodka in an ice cube tray so it must be about -25C.
On 11/6/2022 9:53 AM, Max Demian wrote:
On 06/11/2022 17:05, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 16:49:13 -0000, David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid
wrote:
On 06/11/2022 14:23, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Instead of rolling blackouts when there\'s a power shortage, why
don\'t we
just allow (or deliberately) the voltage and frequency to drop?
Wouldn\'t that make a lot of devices use less?
Recent research suggests \"no\" or perhaps not enough. At one time you
could buy transformers to reduce the houshold voltage with the aim of
reducing consumption. In the past where devices had conventional PSUs
and we had incandescence lights this worked.
What a ridiculous way to reduce power. Why not just turn less lights
on, or use lower wattage bulbs? And turn the heating thermostat down
instead of artificially throttling it?
With modern devices it doesn\'t really work well. Many devices have
switched mode PSU\'s which simply ramp up the input current to compensate
for the lack of voltage so you don\'t save any power.
So TVs, computers, USB chargers and many LED lighting systems.
Yes, but a lot of stuff would use less - washing machine water heater,
electric water or house heating for example.
The first two and possibly the latter have thermostats so will just be
on for longer.
Even a modern fridge has in effect a switched mode PSU so a variable
frequency
inverter drive to the motor.
Even without that the motor would be on for longer as they have
thermostats.
Actually my fridge freezer might as well not have one as it rarely turns
off. Ice forms inside the fridge part and you can just about freeze
vodka in an ice cube tray so it must be about -25C.
Have you considered adjusting it?
Not necessarily. We have a \"guaranteed\" minimum and maximum supply
voltage. Why should a company spend extra designing and installing
protection against supplies (not temporary aberrations) outside them?
Because other things could cause lower voltage, like a wiring fault in the device or the building. Especially in dual voltage countries like the US where you can lose one live.
On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 09:43:37 -0000, <Wand...@noplace.com> wrote:
Seriously, All electrical device need to use a certain amount of power. ...
Most modern devices would not work and might even be damaged.
A device getting damaged by not enough power is screaming of bad design.
Not the same thing at all. If you want to reduce usage, you turn things down or off. If the whole country wants to do that over a short period due to high demand, they can\'t very well phone everyone up and tell you to delay your coffee for half an hour, they have to lower the voltage.
The other answers disagree, some loads would reduce, resistive heating
for example (including washing machine heaters).
On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 18:20:18 -0000, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com
wrote:
On Sun, 6 Nov 2022 17:13:16 +0000, SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk
wrote:
On 06/11/2022 15:10, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 09:43:37 -0000, <Wanderer@noplace.com> wrote:
Sure, but we would need to replace all electrical devices by the their
Thevenin Equivalent.
Seriously, All electrical device need to use a certain amount of
power. We often convert the mains voltages and currents to other
voltages and currents that devices can consume. There are probably
some power supplies that could use the lower voltages and frequencies
and get the same power. Some motors and clocks may run slower but some
would not work at all. If we still had incandescent light bulbs they
would be dimmer, the reason for the old term \'brown out\'. Most modern
devices would not work and might even be damaged.
So No.
A device getting damaged by not enough power is screaming of bad
design.
Not necessarily. We have a \"guaranteed\" minimum and maximum supply
voltage. Why should a company spend extra designing and installing
protection against supplies (not temporary aberrations) outside them?
Yes, all sorts of issues if a power company messes around with the
voltage and frequency. If a consumer wants to attempt saving money in
this way then the obvious thing to try would be a variac. It won\'t
change the frequency but does enable one to reduce the supply voltage
easily to whatever device you wish to reduce the power to.
Not the same thing at all. If you want to reduce usage, you turn things
down or off. If the whole country wants to do that over a short period
due to high demand, they can\'t very well phone everyone up and tell you
to delay your coffee for half an hour, they have to lower the voltage.
On Sunday, November 6, 2022 at 7:10:49 AM UTC-8, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 09:43:37 -0000, <Wand...@noplace.com> wrote:
Seriously, All electrical device need to use a certain amount of power. ...
Most modern devices would not work and might even be damaged.
A device getting damaged by not enough power is screaming of bad design.
An induction motor, for instance, can draw immense power when stalled (and will
blow its internal fuse link, or burn up) but induction motors with real loads
will certainly stall at some diminished input. How can \'design\' get rid of that
motor characteristic? All the known solutions are either destructive (at least
a motor rebuild is required) or complex (heaters, overcurrent relays, etc),
and the nature of the energy consumption by such a motor defeats the
save-power purpose of doing a brownout.
An incandescent lamp isn\'t going to get damaged by a voltage drop, but...
that isn\'t an indication of good design.
In article <op.1u73hbz8mvhs6z@ryzen.home>, CK1@nospam.com says...
Not necessarily. We have a \"guaranteed\" minimum and maximum supply
voltage. Why should a company spend extra designing and installing
protection against supplies (not temporary aberrations) outside them?
Because other things could cause lower voltage, like a wiring fault in the device or the building. Especially in dual voltage countries like the US where you can lose one live.
If the neutral line is lost or a bad connection the line voltage in a
house could have one side to be very low and the other side very high in
the US system.
The heaters are often temperature controlled, and will run longer to
make up for the reduced power.
On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 18:20:18 -0000, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com> wrote:
On Sun, 6 Nov 2022 17:13:16 +0000, SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk
wrote:
On 06/11/2022 15:10, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 09:43:37 -0000, <Wanderer@noplace.com> wrote:
Sure, but we would need to replace all electrical devices by the their
Thevenin Equivalent.
Seriously, All electrical device need to use a certain amount of
power. We often convert the mains voltages and currents to other
voltages and currents that devices can consume. There are probably
some power supplies that could use the lower voltages and frequencies
and get the same power. Some motors and clocks may run slower but some
would not work at all. If we still had incandescent light bulbs they
would be dimmer, the reason for the old term \'brown out\'. Most modern
devices would not work and might even be damaged.
So No.
A device getting damaged by not enough power is screaming of bad design.
Not necessarily. We have a \"guaranteed\" minimum and maximum supply
voltage. Why should a company spend extra designing and installing
protection against supplies (not temporary aberrations) outside them?
Yes, all sorts of issues if a power company messes around with the
voltage and frequency. If a consumer wants to attempt saving money in
this way then the obvious thing to try would be a variac. It won\'t
change the frequency but does enable one to reduce the supply voltage
easily to whatever device you wish to reduce the power to.
Not the same thing at all. If you want to reduce usage, you turn things
down or off. If the whole country wants to do that over a short period
due to high demand, they can\'t very well phone everyone up and tell you
to delay your coffee for half an hour, they have to lower the voltage.
In article <op.1u78degtmvhs6z@ryzen.home>, CK1@nospam.com says...
Not the same thing at all. If you want to reduce usage, you turn things down or off. If the whole country wants to do that over a short period due to high demand, they can\'t very well phone everyone up and tell you to delay your coffee for half an hour, they have to lower the voltage.
A number of years ago the power company put on the television stationa a
message asking people to turn off things due to a power shortage.
They
did and the next year the company asked to raise rates due to not
enoughpower was used.
Some have devices on the water heater and AC or heat pumps that allow
the power companies to shut them off. Mine has one on the heat pump and
saves me a few dollars on every bill just for having it.
If the neutral line is lost or a bad connection the line voltage in a
house could have one side to be very low and the other side very high in
the US system.
On Sun, 06 Nov 2022 18:48:53 -0000, Tim+ <tim.downie@gmail.com> wrote:
Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote:
Even without that the motor would be on for longer as they have
thermostats.
Actually my fridge freezer might as well not have one as it rarely turns
off. Ice forms inside the fridge part and you can just about freeze
vodka in an ice cube tray so it must be about -25C.
Have you measured how much that is costing you? Fridges are
potentially a
fairly major household power consumer these days now that lighting has
become so much more efficient. You really donât want a fridge thatâs
working harder than it needs to 24/7.
Bullshit, a fridge or freezer uses 70W.
On 11/6/22 09:06, Commander Kinsey wrote:
[snip]
The other answers disagree, some loads would reduce, resistive heating
for example (including washing machine heaters).
The heaters are often temperature controlled, and will run longer to
make up for the reduced power.
A number of years ago the power company put on the television stationa a
message asking people to turn off things due to a power shortage. They
did and the next year the company asked to raise rates due to not
enoughpower was used.