Help with wiring colors on old headphones

[Wolfgang Allinger]

On 16 May 11 at group /sci/electronics/repair in article
<phil_a@tpg.com.au> (Phil Allison) wrote:

BTW:

A voice speaking to you from inside your head is a tad alarming for
anyone with schizoid tendencies.

Now I understand your special problem. YMMD

Become unplugged. Best pull the usenet-plug. THX


Saludos Wolfgang

--
Meine 7 Sinne:
Unsinn, Schwachsinn, Blödsinn, Wahnsinn, Stumpfsinn, Irrsinn, Lötzinn.
Wolfgang Allinger Paraguay reply Adresse gesetzt !
ca. 15h00..21h00 MEZ SKYPE:wolfgang.allinger

 

[Ian Jackson]

In message <jGLzp.125$wM1.12@newsfe05.iad>, Martin Brown
<|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> writes

On 14/05/2011 13:46, Patrick wrote:
On 13:22 14 May 2011, Martin Brown wrote:

On 14/05/2011 12:54, Patrick wrote:
On 12:44 14 May 2011, Phil Allison wrote:


"Patrick"

I have some vinatge headphones (Sennheiser HD424) and want to
attach a new plug.

Which color wires are the positive ones?

Are you familiar with decoding these red& blue and black& yellow
headphone wires?

I would hazard a guess red, yellow are positive and blue, black
negative. But why didn't you make a note of where the cables were
connected when you took the original apart?

There are only four wires as two trivially distinct pairs - the worst
that can happen is you need to flip a pair if you choose incorrectly.

Years ago someone wired up these headphones to a 1/4 inch plug and they
they say they don't know what polarity meant. There's no point following
their clueless wiring.

Out of phase headphone transducers create a far more subtle adverse
effect than that noticed in loudspeakers, so it is not something
immediately evident by A-B testing. Nor is testing necessary if someone
here knows what the color coding is.

A pair of headphones with incorrect phasing is about as obvious as
being hit on the head with a brick. Amplifier to mono and try listening
to something. If you have it right the sound source will appear to be
very close to the middle of your head and if not it will be in
different places or spread out depending on the frequency.

If you can't tell the difference you don't deserve a hifi system.

You could always look at the cables at the transducer end.

With headphones and a correctly-phased mono signal, the sound 'image' is

indeed slap-bang in the middle of your head. However, I find that mono
signals sound dead compared with stereo, and when listening for a long
time, this centre-of-the-head sound can start to become very tiring.

I find that reversing the phase of one of the headphones produces a much
wider audio image, and is generally much easier to listen to. I can only
hope that the purists will forgive me.
--
Ian

 

[Phil Allison]

"Ian Jackson"

I find that reversing the phase of one of the headphones produces a much
wider audio image, and is generally much easier to listen to. I can only
hope that the purists will forgive me.

** All you have to do is un-link the common ground - it leaves the two
transducers in series and out of phase.

Heaps of schems have been published to turn mono into a phoney stereo using
phase shift across the audio band - so one of them is worth a try too.

BTW:

A voice speaking to you from inside your head is a tad alarming for anyone
with schizoid tendencies.


..... Phil

 

[Martin Brown]

On 16/05/2011 11:33, Phil Allison wrote:

"Ian Jackson"


I find that reversing the phase of one of the headphones produces a much
wider audio image, and is generally much easier to listen to. I can only
hope that the purists will forgive me.


** All you have to do is un-link the common ground - it leaves the two
transducers in series and out of phase.

Heaps of schems have been published to turn mono into a phoney stereo using
phase shift across the audio band - so one of them is worth a try too.

On this topic did anyone else see the NHK broadcast a few months back
about a digital version of binaural recording that alters the phase
frequency response of the high end of close miked material to extend the
stereo sound stage vertically. The trick works by tweaking the frequency
phase relationship to match what the ear expects from a wave incident at
a given angle. It just sounded odd on loudspeakers.

The demo was of church bells meant to sound high up but I didn't get to
hear it on headphones so I wonder if anyone else did. My Japanese isn't
that good so I might be slightly misrepresenting what was said. It was a
gee-whiz science programme so the explanation wasn't very detailed.

Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[Ian Jackson]

In message <93ccreFi4bU1@mid.individual.net>, Phil Allison
<phil_a@tpg.com.au> writes

"Ian Jackson"


I find that reversing the phase of one of the headphones produces a much
wider audio image, and is generally much easier to listen to. I can only
hope that the purists will forgive me.


** All you have to do is un-link the common ground - it leaves the two
transducers in series and out of phase.

Yes, that's the easiest way to do it.

I suppose it's also the best test to do when checking that you actually
have got the phasing correct. Just dab the common connection on and off.
The difference will be very obvious, and instant.

--

Ian

 

[Phil Allison]

"Ian Jackson"
Phil Allison

"Ian Jackson"


I find that reversing the phase of one of the headphones produces a much
wider audio image, and is generally much easier to listen to. I can only
hope that the purists will forgive me.


** All you have to do is un-link the common ground - it leaves the two
transducers in series and out of phase.

Yes, that's the easiest way to do it.

I suppose it's also the best test to do when checking that you actually
have got the phasing correct. Just dab the common connection on and off.
The difference will be very obvious, and instant.

** Precisely.


..... Phil

 

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <93ccreFi4bU1@mid.individual.net>,
Phil Allison <phil_a@tpg.com.au> wrote:

A voice speaking to you from inside your head is a tad alarming for
anyone with schizoid tendencies.

Please remove your headphones immediately.

--
*I'm already visualizing the duct tape over your mouth

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

 

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <ug7Ap.6803$oq.3797@newsfe17.iad>,
Martin Brown <|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:

On this topic did anyone else see the NHK broadcast a few months back
about a digital version of binaural recording that alters the phase
frequency response of the high end of close miked material to extend the
stereo sound stage vertically. The trick works by tweaking the frequency
phase relationship to match what the ear expects from a wave incident at
a given angle.

Not new, IIRC. I remember hearing a binaural recording of a man being
shaved and having a haircut. Could just about feel the comb on the head.

--
*I'm not your type. I'm not inflatable.

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

 

[Martin Brown]

On 16/05/2011 13:30, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article<ug7Ap.6803$oq.3797@newsfe17.iad>,
Martin Brown<|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:
On this topic did anyone else see the NHK broadcast a few months back
about a digital version of binaural recording that alters the phase
frequency response of the high end of close miked material to extend the
stereo sound stage vertically. The trick works by tweaking the frequency
phase relationship to match what the ear expects from a wave incident at
a given angle.

Not new, IIRC. I remember hearing a binaural recording of a man being
shaved and having a haircut. Could just about feel the comb on the head.

What was new was that they could take close miked material and use
digital processing to move it around the binaural sound stage at will.

The old way involved microphones inside a headlike dummy with ears.

Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <4o9Ap.6622$241.2541@newsfe07.iad>,
Martin Brown <|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:

On 16/05/2011 13:30, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article<ug7Ap.6803$oq.3797@newsfe17.iad>,
Martin Brown<|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:
On this topic did anyone else see the NHK broadcast a few months back
about a digital version of binaural recording that alters the phase
frequency response of the high end of close miked material to extend
the stereo sound stage vertically. The trick works by tweaking the
frequency phase relationship to match what the ear expects from a
wave incident at a given angle.

Not new, IIRC. I remember hearing a binaural recording of a man being
shaved and having a haircut. Could just about feel the comb on the
head.

What was new was that they could take close miked material and use
digital processing to move it around the binaural sound stage at will.

Right.

The old way involved microphones inside a headlike dummy with ears.

Seems to have gone out of fashion. R4 used to have the odd play recorded
dummy head - but not recently.

--
*Gun Control: Use both hands.

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

 

[William Sommerwerck]

"Ian Jackson" <ianREMOVETHISjackson@g3ohx.demon.co.uk>
wrote in message news:LmD3UcOJsP0NFwdG@g3ohx.demon.co.uk...

I find that reversing the phase of one of the headphones produces
a much wider audio image, and is generally much easier to listen
to. I can only hope that the purists will forgive me.

The late J Gordon Holt described the effect (for him) as cleaning out
everything inside his end.

How bothered you are by it depends on how sensitive you are to "phasiness".

There is nothing wrong with listening to mono with reverse polarity. But if
you listen to stereo that way -- you will, indeed, have the purists down on
you.

 

[William Sommerwerck]

"Phil Allison" <phil_a@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:93ccreFi4bU1@mid.individual.net...

"Ian Jackson"

I find that reversing the phase of one of the headphones produces
a much wider audio image, and is generally much easier to listen to.
I can only hope that the purists will forgive me.

** All you have to do is un-link the common ground -- it leaves the
two transducers in series and out of phase.

If the signal is mono, you'll have pretty much nothing left to listen to. If
it's stereo, the mono components will be cancelled, the L- and R-only
components retained, with components in-between subjected to varying degrees
of attenuation.

And, yes, Phil, whether or not you like it, what I've just said is 100%
correct.

 

[Phil Allison]

"William Sommerwanker is a fucking FUCKWIT "

"Ian Jackson"

I find that reversing the phase of one of the headphones produces
a much wider audio image, and is generally much easier to listen to.
I can only hope that the purists will forgive me.

** All you have to do is un-link the common ground -- it leaves the
two transducers in series and out of phase.

If the signal is mono, you'll have pretty much nothing left to listen to.

** TOTALLY and UTTERLY wrong - as usual.

Ian has tried it, as have I, and YOU fucking have not.

And, yes, Phil, whether or not you like it, what I've just said is 100%
correct.

** Get cancer and die you, fucking waste of space congenital retard.



..... Phil

 

[William Sommerwerck]

"Phil Allison" <phil_a@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:93crl0F8bsU1@mid.individual.net...

"William Sommerwanker is a fucking FUCKWIT "

"Ian Jackson"

I find that reversing the phase of one of the headphones produces
a much wider audio image, and is generally much easier to listen to.
I can only hope that the purists will forgive me.

** All you have to do is un-link the common ground -- it leaves the
two transducers in series and out of phase.

If the signal is mono, you'll have pretty much nothing left to listen to.

** TOTALLY and UTTERLY wrong - as usual.

Ian has tried it, as have I, and YOU fucking have not.

Actually, I first tried it more than 40 years ago.

This "lifted-common" wiring is the principle on which Dynaquad was based.
What passes through the speakers (or headphone drivers) is the difference
between the two channels. It doesn't take much intelligence to see that this
wipes out the signal's mono components, and messes up what remains.

There are at least two Star Trek episodes in which Captain Kirk makes a
computer self-destruct by throwing illogic at it. How much longer will it
take for you to plotz by being told you're wrong? WRONG, WRONG, WRONG,
WRONG, WRONG.

 

[David Looser]

"William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote

This "lifted-common" wiring is the principle on which Dynaquad was based.
What passes through the speakers (or headphone drivers) is the difference
between the two channels. It doesn't take much intelligence to see that
this
wipes out the signal's mono components, and messes up what remains.

What a bizarre thing to say, of course it doesn't "wipe-out" the mono
signal! Both transducers still have the mono signal flowing through them,
all that has happened is the diaphragms are out of phase with each other
(one going in whilst the other is going out), each ear will thus hear the
full mono signal. The only place that cancellation could now occur is in the
brain, and the human auditory system doesn't work that way.

There are at least two Star Trek episodes in which Captain Kirk makes a
computer self-destruct by throwing illogic at it. How much longer will it
take for you to plotz by being told you're wrong? WRONG, WRONG, WRONG,
WRONG, WRONG.

It's never a good idea to write like that when *you* are the one in the

wrong.

David.

 

[David Looser]

"David Looser" <david.looser@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:93d0oeFj18U1@mid.individual.net...

"William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote

This "lifted-common" wiring is the principle on which Dynaquad was based.
What passes through the speakers (or headphone drivers) is the difference
between the two channels. It doesn't take much intelligence to see that
this
wipes out the signal's mono components, and messes up what remains.

What a bizarre thing to say, of course it doesn't "wipe-out" the mono
signal! Both transducers still have the mono signal flowing through them,
all that has happened is the diaphragms are out of phase with each other
(one going in whilst the other is going out), each ear will thus hear the
full mono signal. The only place that cancellation could now occur is in
the brain, and the human auditory system doesn't work that way.

There are at least two Star Trek episodes in which Captain Kirk makes a
computer self-destruct by throwing illogic at it. How much longer will it
take for you to plotz by being told you're wrong? WRONG, WRONG, WRONG,
WRONG, WRONG.

It's never a good idea to write like that when *you* are the one in the
wrong.

Having just re-read the thread I now understand where you are coming from.

If you disconnect the sleeve whilst feeding the same signal to both tip and
ring then yes, you are right, but that's not what was being suggested here.

What *was* being talked about was connecting a mono signal across tip and
ring, thus putting the two transducers in series.

David.

 

[William Sommerwerck]

"David Looser" <david.looser@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:93d31fF5utU1@mid.individual.net...

"David Looser" <david.looser@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:93d0oeFj18U1@mid.individual.net...
"William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote

This "lifted-common" wiring is the principle on which Dynaquad was
based.
What passes through the speakers (or headphone drivers) is the
difference
between the two channels. It doesn't take much intelligence to see that
this
wipes out the signal's mono components, and messes up what remains.

What a bizarre thing to say, of course it doesn't "wipe-out" the mono
signal! Both transducers still have the mono signal flowing through
them,
all that has happened is the diaphragms are out of phase with each other
(one going in whilst the other is going out), each ear will thus hear
the
full mono signal. The only place that cancellation could now occur is in
the brain, and the human auditory system doesn't work that way.

There are at least two Star Trek episodes in which Captain Kirk makes a
computer self-destruct by throwing illogic at it. How much longer will
it
take for you to plotz by being told you're wrong? WRONG, WRONG, WRONG,
WRONG, WRONG.

It's never a good idea to write like that when *you* are the one in the
wrong.

Having just re-read the thread I now understand where you are coming from.
If you disconnect the sleeve whilst feeding the same signal to both tip
and
ring then yes, you are right, but that's not what was being suggested
here.

What *was* being talked about was connecting a mono signal across tip and
ring, thus putting the two transducers in series.

That isn't the way I read it, but you're right -- with respect to that
configuration.

 

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <93crl0F8bsU1@mid.individual.net>,
Phil Allison <phil_a@tpg.com.au> wrote:

If the signal is mono, you'll have pretty much nothing left to listen
to.

** TOTALLY and UTTERLY wrong - as usual.

Pet, removing the common leaves just the difference signal. If the amps
are matched and being fed with mono there isn't one.

--
*Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.*

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

 

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <93d0oeFj18U1@mid.individual.net>,
David Looser <david.looser@btinternet.com> wrote:

This "lifted-common" wiring is the principle on which Dynaquad was
based. What passes through the speakers (or headphone drivers) is the
difference between the two channels. It doesn't take much intelligence
to see that this wipes out the signal's mono components, and messes
up what remains.

What a bizarre thing to say, of course it doesn't "wipe-out" the mono
signal! Both transducers still have the mono signal flowing through
them, all that has happened is the diaphragms are out of phase with
each other (one going in whilst the other is going out), each ear will
thus hear the full mono signal. The only place that cancellation could
now occur is in the brain, and the human auditory system doesn't work
that way.

Consider each amp as a simple voltage supply with the negatives commoned.
Say 6 volts each or whatever. If both are exactly 6 volts no current will
flow between the positive terminals. Same with a mono signal.

I'm utterly surprised there's any argument - it's a classic way to look
for differences between two channels.

--
*Xerox and Wurlitzer will merge to market reproductive organs.

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

 

[Ian Jackson]

In message <51d45fcad5dave@davenoise.co.uk>, "Dave Plowman (News)"
<dave@davenoise.co.uk> writes

In article <93crl0F8bsU1@mid.individual.net>,
Phil Allison <phil_a@tpg.com.au> wrote:
If the signal is mono, you'll have pretty much nothing left to listen
to.


** TOTALLY and UTTERLY wrong - as usual.

Pet, removing the common leaves just the difference signal. If the amps
are matched and being fed with mono there isn't one.

On reflection, that is 110% true. I was led astray! With a mono signal,

there will be zero audio, regardless of the relative phasing of the
headphones. The only way to test the phasing is to reverse one phone
completely (swap live and common).
--
Ian