Freaky Amazing DMM?!

[Stuart]

In article
<1313257e-cad2-404e-8c62-c4caf195dd37@o40g2000prn.googlegroups.com>,

Arloe understands “that it can” and “understands what one is reading
may not be correct”.
Arloe understands that if he reads 83 volts with a high impedance
meter he doesn’t know if the voltage is real or “phantom”. So how is
the measurement useful?
Maybe electricians are too fussy about knowing whether the circuits
the work on are live?

They, like all the *sensible* engineers I have come across, have a desire
to reach the age where they are able to draw and enjoy their pensions.

<SNIP for brevity>

The term “analog” is used because (without an amplifier) they are
inherently low impedance in the context of the measurements Arloe is
making. (With a good 50 microamp movement you might still see some
phantom voltage. AC ranges are likely way under 20k ohms/volt.)

The Avometer Model 8, which I still have, has an impedance of 1000
ohms/volt on AC. It has switched ranges to 1000V f.s.d and a further
range, via separate terminals, to allow measurement to 2500V f.s.d

The AVO model 40, which was favourite when working more on the "power
engineering" side, was lower. I cannot quote an exact figure but I believe
it was more like 200 ohms/volt. The most sensitive AC current range was
12mA f.s.d.

<SNIP>

Arloe does understand the tools. That is why he wants to use a lower
impedance meter on power circuits.
SNIP
He is saying that a low impedance meter is the appropriate tool for
the measurements he is making.

And he is absolutely right.

<SNIP>

Same applies to responses to Stewart, who is speaking from
professional experience.

Perhaps "professional" experience, but limited knowledge.

Your Ouija board is very accurate and, of course, is the appropriate
tool.
Is it high impedance?

Should anyone care:

I spent the best part of 40 years as a transmitter engineer maintaining,
repairing and caring for, transmitting and associated plant for the BBC.

I have worked on everything from DC to 7GHz (They wouldn't buy me the test
gear to repair anything higher in frequency than that but since we only
had a few links at higher frequencies it probably made economic sense to
return to manufacturer to repair).

I have covered everything from milliwatts to megawatts and battery power
to 11kV distribution systems. (Perhaps KRW would like to take his
favourite high-Z DMM and try testing the spouts on an 11kV switch-gear
panel) I was qualified as an "authorised" person for the purposes of the
HV rules.

I have repaired everything from the simplest DC power supply to the latest
digital TV and radio transmission equipment. I have worked on cooling
plant, rotary converters, standby power plant and done design and
prototype work. I doubt there is a single piece of electrical/electronic
test equipment which I have not handled and known the *proper* usage of,
at some point in that time. (not forgetting general workshop equipment
such as lathes, drills, milling machines....)

Stuart

 

[Sjouke Burry]

David L. Jones wrote:

On Jan 25, 10:18 am, Archimedes' Lever
OneBigLe...@InfiniteSeries.Org> wrote:
On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 12:50:17 -0600, krw <k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:

The term “analog” is used because (without an amplifier) they are
inherently low impedance in the context of the measurements Arloe is
making. (With a good 50 microamp movement you might still see some
phantom voltage. AC ranges are likely way under 20k ohms/volt.)
They can still be thousands of ohms per volt.
Most analog meters are pretty high impedance as well. On the order of
nearly 10M Ohms per volt.

On what planet??

This one. Yamato Y3 2Kohm/V ac & dc.

Bought around 1963.
Still works perfectly.
Also it survived 2 digital meters.

 

[David L. Jones]

On Jan 25, 10:18 am, Archimedes' Lever
<OneBigLe...@InfiniteSeries.Org> wrote:

On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 12:50:17 -0600, krw <k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:

The term “analog” is used because (without an amplifier) they are
inherently low impedance in the context of the measurements Arloe is
making. (With a good 50 microamp movement you might still see some
phantom voltage. AC ranges are likely way under 20k ohms/volt.)

They can still be thousands of ohms per volt.

Most analog meters are pretty high impedance as well. On the order of
nearly 10M Ohms per volt.

On what planet??

Almost all analog meters on the market are in the oder of 10's of
Kohms / Volt.
My Triplett 630, a very typically rated industry standard analog meter
for example is 10-20K/V on DC and 5-10K/V on AC volts.
The most sensitive analog meter I've ever owned (and from memory, saw)
was rated at 100Kohms/V.

Those that are higher are FET input meters and they are NOT rated in
ohms/volts, as the impedance is no longer based on the meter movement.
My Tandy FET analog meter is 10Mohms fixed on DC volts, and non-FET
input on AC, rated once again in 10's of K per volt.

You might need to go back to basics:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multimeter

Dave.

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 16:18:08 -0800, the renowned Archimedes' Lever
<OneBigLever@InfiniteSeries.Org> wrote:

On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 12:50:17 -0600, krw <krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:


The term “analog” is used because (without an amplifier) they are
inherently low impedance in the context of the measurements Arloe is
making. (With a good 50 microamp movement you might still see some
phantom voltage. AC ranges are likely way under 20k ohms/volt.)

They can still be thousands of ohms per volt.


Most analog meters are pretty high impedance as well. On the order of
nearly 10M Ohms per volt.

My first Heathkit meter was.

http://www.heathkit-museum.com/test/hvmv-7a.shtml




Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

 

[David L. Jones]

On Jan 25, 2:32 pm, Sjouke Burry <burrynulnulf...@ppllaanneett.nnll>
wrote:

David L. Jones wrote:
On Jan 25, 10:18 am, Archimedes' Lever
OneBigLe...@InfiniteSeries.Org> wrote:
On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 12:50:17 -0600, krw <k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:

The term “analog” is used because (without an amplifier) they are
inherently low impedance in the context of the measurements Arloe is
making. (With a good 50 microamp movement you might still see some
phantom voltage. AC ranges are likely way under 20k ohms/volt.)
They can still be thousands of ohms per volt.
Most analog meters are pretty high impedance as well. On the order of
nearly 10M Ohms per volt.

On what planet??

This one. Yamato Y3 2Kohm/V ac & dc.

Yes, they are Kohms/V on this planet, as I said.
"Archimedes' Lever" must live on another planet were analog meters
have Mohms/V sensitivity!
"krw" must be lusting after one of those! :->

Dave.

 

[Archimedes' Lever]

On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 20:19:53 -0800 (PST), "David L. Jones"
<altzone@gmail.com> wrote:

You might need to go back to basics:

Nice reply except for this bit of baby bullshit.

You might need to fuck off and die.

 

[Archimedes' Lever]

On Sun, 25 Jan 2009 00:24:30 -0500, Spehro Pefhany
<speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:

On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 16:18:08 -0800, the renowned Archimedes' Lever
OneBigLever@InfiniteSeries.Org> wrote:

On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 12:50:17 -0600, krw <krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:


The term “analog” is used because (without an amplifier) they are
inherently low impedance in the context of the measurements Arloe is
making. (With a good 50 microamp movement you might still see some
phantom voltage. AC ranges are likely way under 20k ohms/volt.)

They can still be thousands of ohms per volt.


Most analog meters are pretty high impedance as well. On the order of
nearly 10M Ohms per volt.

My first Heathkit meter was.

http://www.heathkit-museum.com/test/hvmv-7a.shtml



No FET front end on that!

Bwuahahahahah!

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

 

[krw]

On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 21:58:44 -0800, Archimedes' Lever
<OneBigLever@InfiniteSeries.Org> wrote:

On Sun, 25 Jan 2009 00:24:30 -0500, Spehro Pefhany
speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:

On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 16:18:08 -0800, the renowned Archimedes' Lever
OneBigLever@InfiniteSeries.Org> wrote:

On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 12:50:17 -0600, krw <krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:


The term “analog” is used because (without an amplifier) they are
inherently low impedance in the context of the measurements Arloe is
making. (With a good 50 microamp movement you might still see some
phantom voltage. AC ranges are likely way under 20k ohms/volt.)

They can still be thousands of ohms per volt.


Most analog meters are pretty high impedance as well. On the order of
nearly 10M Ohms per volt.

My first Heathkit meter was.

http://www.heathkit-museum.com/test/hvmv-7a.shtml

I had one too.

No FET front end on that!

An indirectly heated cathode Field Effect Tube.

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

bud-- wrote:

I really don't understand the resistance (if you will excuse the
expression) to Arloe.

Of course both analog and digital meters (excluding, for practical
purposes, the original topic) have resistive input. For the purposes
Arloe uses a meter, the intentionally high impedance of most digital
meters is a liability. The lower impedance of an analog meter, and
some digital meters, is an advantage.

Only if you don't know how to interpret the better meter. Its a
dumbed down toy for wire pullers. I've seen too many over the years
that couldn't find an open neutral, or bad connection unless it was on
fire.

alt.home.repair gets more electric power questions than this
newsgroup, with the OP usually less technical savvy (some at a.e.e
that aren't either). It is rather common for someone to ask why there
is 83 volts on a wire that should be dead. The common response is it
is a "phantom voltage" picked up by using a high impedance digital
meter and to use an analog meter (or light bulb).
As Arloe said "An analog meter 'IS A LOAD' a DMM is NOT."

If you are reading 83 volts, either it is a phantom voltage, or you
have a 40 volt drop in a 120 volt circuit, or 160 volt drop in a 240
volt circuit, which is damn unlikely. If you can't see this, you don't
know what you're doing.

Arloe is just saying to use the appropriate tool.
In addition, he can't kludge a lower impedance onto a high impedance
meter. He may meter power circuits that have an available fault
current of tens of thousands of amps. In the US you may need to wear a
"flash suit" to merely meter the voltage. The meter must be designed
to safely fail on those circuits.

The appropriate tools start with a well trained brain. Otherwise,
you are a monkey throwing crap at the problem.

If is working with what you described, it certainly won't be 'low
impedance', because the the current flow required, times the voltage
being read would be so high that the meter would need to be in a 55
gallon drum of transformer oil, and able to dissipater several
kilowatts. All this would weigh several hundred pounds.

Same applies to responses to Stewart, who is speaking from
professional experience.

My experience is a broadcast engineer, (The largest was at a 5 MW UHF
TV site.) industrial electrical work, and specialized electronics that
you'll never see, without going to the International Space Station.


--
http://improve-usenet.org/index.html

aioe.org, Goggle Groups, and Web TV users must request to be white
listed, or I will not see your messages.

If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in
your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm


There are two kinds of people on this earth:
The crazy, and the insane.
The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy.

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

bud-- wrote:

On Jan 23, 6:13 pm, Archimedes' Lever <OneBigLe...@InfiniteSeries.Org
wrote:
On Fri, 23 Jan 2009 11:28:44 -0800 (PST), bud-- <budn...@isp.com> wrote:
The meter must be designed
to safely fail on those circuits.

High impedance DMMs "safely fail" on ALL equipment as well.

Only if they are designed for high energy circuits.

And no, it matters not that there is a high current capacity available.

It matters greatly that there is high current capacity available.

There is a meter classification based on available current. (Category
1, 2, 3; probably from the IEC.)

So, you don't use current transformers or clamp on AC ammeters?

If you are in the workplace and covered by (US) OSHA using the wrong
type of meter could be real expensive.

If you are working in dangerous locations without the proper training
you are likely to die. If you are properly trained, the company
supplies the proper equipment needed to do the work. If you work for
some fly by night schlock outfit without proper training an safety
equipment OSHA won't collect a cent, because the owners will flee the
scene before they arrive, and have nothing worth seizing, anyway. the
last time I heard of someone working with HV dying, it was a nine bucket
that was working in Florida to help restore service after hurricanes,
when some idiot hit it when the crew was on its way home, and cause it
to roll off I-75 in North Florida.

And if you don't use the appropriate tool you could wind up wearing
the meter. You could also wind up wearing the equipment you are
metering.

If the operator does not know how to take measurements in such
environments, he should not even be in such an environment, much less be
there attempting to take readings from power equipment. With ANY meter.

Of course. But a competent person working high energy circuits will
use a meter that has been designed and rated for high energy circuits.
If you are poking around in a PC it doesn't much matter.

--
bud--

--
http://improve-usenet.org/index.html

aioe.org, Goggle Groups, and Web TV users must request to be white
listed, or I will not see your messages.

If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in
your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm


There are two kinds of people on this earth:
The crazy, and the insane.
The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy.

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

Arlowe wrote:

Archimedes' Lever brought next idea :
On Thu, 22 Jan 2009 17:28:17 +0000 (GMT), Stuart <Spambin@argonet.co.uk
wrote:

In article <mn.b4a77d91b151170f.90583@gmail.com>,
Arlowe <bare.arsed@gmail.com> wrote:

I don't test for live circuits with a DMM.
I use test lamps or a low(er) impedance voltmeter.
If you worked for me I would sack your arse if I caught you using a DMM
to test for live.

Nice to know someone round here knows what they are doing!


Both of you are idiotic to think that there is some inherent error or
danger in using a DMM to observe an AC line.

You are an idiot if you can not see the potential for error.
If you have multiple conductors carrying current nearby you will read
voltage on an isolated circuit with a DMM. That voltage will not be
read
on an analoge meter or with a resistive voltage indicating device like
test lamps.

I can see that none of you ever worked inside high energy panels.

I will try and explain it another way.
voltmeters on DMMs are good for measuring the difference in potential,
but they are not suitable for checking for the presence of a difference
in potential inside a changing magnetic field.

Now if you can not see why I say it is not good practice to test for
live circuits with a DMM you DO NOT KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THE GENERATION
OF ELECTRICITY.

I am finished discussing this.

You weren't discussing, you are posting old wive's tales. Power
generation has nothing to do with portable meters. Current transformers
and voltmeters are permanently installed at each generator so the can
monitor and balance the load on each alternator.

--
http://improve-usenet.org/index.html

aioe.org, Goggle Groups, and Web TV users must request to be white
listed, or I will not see your messages.

If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in
your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm


There are two kinds of people on this earth:
The crazy, and the insane.
The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy.

 

[David L. Jones]

On Jan 25, 3:58 pm, Archimedes' Lever <OneBigLe...@InfiniteSeries.Org>
wrote:

On Sun, 25 Jan 2009 00:24:30 -0500, Spehro Pefhany



speffS...@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:
On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 16:18:08 -0800, the renowned Archimedes' Lever
OneBigLe...@InfiniteSeries.Org> wrote:

On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 12:50:17 -0600, krw <k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:

The term “analog” is used because (without an amplifier) they are
inherently low impedance in the context of the measurements Arloe is
making. (With a good 50 microamp movement you might still see some
phantom voltage. AC ranges are likely way under 20k ohms/volt.)

They can still be thousands of ohms per volt.

Most analog meters are pretty high impedance as well. On the order of
nearly 10M Ohms per volt.

My first Heathkit meter was.

http://www.heathkit-museum.com/test/hvmv-7a.shtml

No FET front end on that!

Bwuahahahahah!

So it's a vacuum tube front end instead - same thing, same result.
A fixed 11Mohm input, not 10M/volt as you foolishly claimed.

Dave.

 

[Lostgallifreyan]

"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote in
news:rOWdnQ1TB4W1kOHUnZ2dnUVZ_v7inZ2d@earthlink.com:

Same applies to responses to Stewart, who is speaking from
professional experience.


My experience is a broadcast engineer, (The largest was at a 5 MW UHF
TV site.) industrial electrical work, and specialized electronics that
you'll never see, without going to the International Space Station.

And both extremly impressive too, yet apparently in disagreement.

I don't think that high an experience is needed to understand this anyway, I
learned it at 14 when an aging friend of the family taught me how to build my
own (and first) multimeter.

Ohm's law.

And a bit of awareness of insulation strength when high volts are involved.

If you're using a low resistance input you might have to take it into account
for accurate measurements but on mains, the error is small, so it's worth
keeping inputs resistance low for meters dedicated to such systems, for
reasons plenty of posts have explained, so I won't flog that horse now.

If you have strong insulation, you can probe an HV circuit without trouble,
just make sure you understand what the meter says. If a meter designed to tax
the system as lightly as possible says 83V it means 83V, the problem isn't
the meter, you just have to know enough to interpret the truth it tell you.
(Mike Terrell got this one right). If you also need to know current through
the same meter, you could do it by measuring small voltage across a part of
one conductor, then measuring resistance of that part after removing power.
Most current meters just do this internally anyway, but they 'know' the
resistance of their shunts so they calculate correctly anyway.

So the question isn't who is the most experienced, it's who is right? And
take care, because if two people with real experience start arguing over
something as basic as Ohm's law, they'll do each other's reputation harm, as
well as making it hard for newcomers to trust what they read here.

 

[Archimedes' Lever]

On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 23:11:58 -0800 (PST), "David L. Jones"
<altzone@gmail.com> wrote:

On Jan 25, 3:58 pm, Archimedes' Lever <OneBigLe...@InfiniteSeries.Org
wrote:
On Sun, 25 Jan 2009 00:24:30 -0500, Spehro Pefhany



speffS...@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:
On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 16:18:08 -0800, the renowned Archimedes' Lever
OneBigLe...@InfiniteSeries.Org> wrote:

On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 12:50:17 -0600, krw <k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:

The term “analog” is used because (without an amplifier) they are
inherently low impedance in the context of the measurements Arloe is
making. (With a good 50 microamp movement you might still see some
phantom voltage. AC ranges are likely way under 20k ohms/volt.)

They can still be thousands of ohms per volt.

Most analog meters are pretty high impedance as well. On the order of
nearly 10M Ohms per volt.

My first Heathkit meter was.

http://www.heathkit-museum.com/test/hvmv-7a.shtml

No FET front end on that!

Bwuahahahahah!

So it's a vacuum tube front end instead - same thing, same result.
A fixed 11Mohm input, not 10M/volt as you foolishly claimed.

Dave.

!0 M Ohms will not load the circuit under discussion enough to clamp
local noise either.

 

[bud--]

On Jan 25, 1:08 am, "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terr...@earthlink.net>
wrote:

bud-- wrote:

On Jan 23, 6:13 pm, Archimedes' Lever <OneBigLe...@InfiniteSeries.Org
wrote:
On Fri, 23 Jan 2009 11:28:44 -0800 (PST), bud-- <budn...@isp.com> wrote:
The meter must be designed
to safely fail on those circuits.

High impedance DMMs "safely fail" on ALL equipment as well.

Only if they are designed for high energy circuits.

And no, it matters not that there is a high current capacity available.

It matters greatly that there is high current capacity available.

There is a meter classification based on available current. (Category
1, 2, 3; probably from the IEC.)

So, you don't use current transformers or clamp on AC ammeters?

It should be clear the discussion is about high available fault
current - the current you get when the source is short circuited. This
is a really basic concept in design and protection of high current AC
power circuits. (But it may not be something you have run across.)

High available fault current can result in arc flash. Arc flash can
result in major injury and death in addition to major equipment
destruction. Arc-flash is estimated to kill 200-300 people a year.
OSHA has made arc-flash an issue. Safety protection may require
wearing an arc-flash suit.

One of the smartest electricians I know was seriously injured by arc
flash. And it was through an equipment failure - he made no mistake.

If you are in the workplace and covered by (US)OSHA usingthe wrong
type of meter could be real expensive.

If you are working in dangerous locations without the proper training
you are likely to die. If you are properly trained, the company
supplies the proper equipment needed to do the work.
snip

The issue I raised is appropriate meters. As I wrote above, the IEC
has measurement Categories I-IV. If working in high energy locations,
like panel boards and services, the appropriate meters are Cat III and
IV. These meters are designed for the riskier environment and have
better transient withstand and fusing.

My analog Triplett 310 has a glass fuse. I have a Beckman digital that
has a similar fuse. They might be safe in Cat I. My Fluke is rated Cat
III and IV. That includes transient withstand well above the nominal
voltage rating and high interrupt capacity fuses.

OSHA might be real displeased if the wrong meter was used. And when
OSHA is unhappy you might be unhappy.


If you didn’t assume everyone else was an idiot you might actually
learn something. (But probably not Archimedes.)

--
bud--

 

[bud--]

On Jan 25, 12:56 am, "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terr...@earthlink.net>
wrote:

bud-- wrote:

alt.home.repair gets more electric power questions than this
newsgroup, with the OP usually less technical savvy (some at a.e.e
that aren't either). It is rather common for someone to ask why there
is 83 volts on a wire that should be dead. The common response is it
is a "phantom voltage" picked up by using a high impedance digital
meter and to use an analog meter (or light bulb).
As Arloe said "An analog meter 'IS A LOAD' a DMM is NOT."

If you are reading 83 volts, either it is a phantom voltage, or you
have a 40 volt drop in a 120 volt circuit, or 160 volt drop in a 240
volt circuit, which is damn unlikely. If you can't see this, you don't
know what you're doing.

Is it a phantom voltage?
Do you have an open neutral?
Voltage coming back through another device?
One of many other possibilities?

Arloe can eliminate one of them real fast because he knows what he is
doing.

Arloe is just saying to use the appropriate tool.
In addition, he can't kludge a lower impedance onto a high impedance
meter. He may meter power circuits that have an available fault
current of tens of thousands of amps. In the US you may need to wear a
"flash suit" to merely meter the voltage. The meter must be designed
to safely fail on those circuits.

The appropriate tools start with a well trained brain. Otherwise,
you are a monkey throwing crap at the problem.

How fortunate that Arloe and Stewart and I are well educated and know
what we are doing.

If is working with what you described, it certainly won't be 'low
impedance', because the the current flow required, times the voltage
being read would be so high that the meter would need to be in a 55
gallon drum of transformer oil, and able to dissipater several
kilowatts. All this would weigh several hundred pounds.

If you followed the thread you might understand how “low impedance” is
being used.

--
bud--

 

[Archimedes' Lever]

On Mon, 26 Jan 2009 12:25:36 -0800 (PST), bud-- <budnews@isp.com> wrote:

It should be clear the discussion is about high available fault
current - the current you get when the source is short circuited.

Which is NOT a problem with ANY modern meter.

In other words, IDIOT... EVEN IF IT FLASHES IT WILL NOT CAUSE A HIGH
CURRENT INCIDENT.

Two simple premises, dopey fuck.

ONE: The meter leads are SMALL gauge! Do you even know what that
means?

TWO: WHERE is the short circuit, IDIOT!?

 

[Archimedes' Lever]

On Mon, 26 Jan 2009 12:25:36 -0800 (PST), bud-- <budnews@isp.com> wrote:

High available fault current can result in arc flash. Arc flash can
result in major injury and death in addition to major equipment
destruction. Arc-flash is estimated to kill 200-300 people a year.
OSHA has made arc-flash an issue. Safety protection may require
wearing an arc-flash suit.

HIGH VOLTAGE arc flash kills 200 to 300 people a year.

Low voltage arc flash, not nearly as many in that statistic.

When you express statistics, you should be careful not to massage them
to make your position appear stronger. It will always bite you in the
ass.

 

[Archimedes' Lever]

On Mon, 26 Jan 2009 12:25:36 -0800 (PST), bud-- <budnews@isp.com> wrote:

One of the smartest electricians I know was seriously injured by arc
flash. And it was through an equipment failure - he made no mistake.

The WHY are you pissing and moaning about meters?

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

bud-- wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

If you are reading 83 volts, either it is a phantom voltage, or you
have a 40 volt drop in a 120 volt circuit, or 160 volt drop in a 240
volt circuit, which is damn unlikely. If you can't see this, you don't
know what you're doing.

Is it a phantom voltage?

Easy enough to identify.

Do you have an open neutral?

I would have full voltage on the supply side.

Voltage coming back through another device?

Not difficult to troubleshoot.

One of many other possibilities?

How about high harmonics on the neutral of a three phase service in
an office or server room? Do you know why the neutral has to be larger
than the supply lines? This has been well documented for over 25
years. Buildings wired to earlier NEC codes have had major electrical
fires.


All easy to troubleshoot, if you have common sense and a true
understanding of electricity. Try working in a 'zero downtime' job
sometime, where you may only have seconds to find a problem to avoid
costly repairs, or expensive damage to the entire facility rather than
simple monkey work where you can spend hours or days tracking down a
problem. Places where preventative maintenance can save lives.

Arloe can eliminate one of them real fast because he knows what he is
doing.

So can I. I've done it for over 40+ years.

The appropriate tools start with a well trained brain. Otherwise,
you are a monkey throwing crap at the problem.

How fortunate that Arloe and Stewart and I are well educated and know
what we are doing.

Sure you are. Yet you can't figure out how to do it without a dumbed
down tool.

If is working with what you described, it certainly won't be 'low
impedance', because the the current flow required, times the voltage
being read would be so high that the meter would need to be in a 55
gallon drum of transformer oil, and able to dissipater several
kilowatts. All this would weigh several hundred pounds.

If you followed the thread you might understand how “low impedance” is
being used.

I followed the thread, even though it loops in multiple, ridiculous
circles. Either you can work with available tools, or you need your
hand held, and your mommy to wipe both ends for you.



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There are two kinds of people on this earth:
The crazy, and the insane.
The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy.