Freaky Amazing DMM?!

"David L. Jones" <altzone@gmail.com> wrote in news:9f33ec2f-7412-4832-bcb5-
e326c0ad86a2@b38g2000prf.googlegroups.com:

From my side I've only been proposing that high impedance meters can
be a problem, and the solution is using the right tool for the job.
Click to expand...
Makes sense but do you concede that understanding the conditions matters more
than the meter? What matters in wiring that is capacitatively or inductively
coupled but not directly so, is that some kind of light load is placed on the
line, and the voltage measured across that load. Only when that load needs to
be a simple resistance can it be assumed that it is the meter's job to
include it. In all other cases it can be assumed that the meter should tax
the circuit as lightly as possible while analysing an external load chosen to
fit the analysis needed. Which in turn directly implies that in the hands of
someone who knows electricity, especially AC and frequency dependent
behaviour, the high impedance meter is the way to go. Ideally with a plug-in
load module or two, just as meters used to come with plug-in current shunts.
 
krw explained on 21/01/2009 :
On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 22:05:27 -0300, YD <ydtechHAT@techie.com> wrote:

Late at night, by candle light, Arlowe <bare.arsed@gmail.com> penned
this immortal opus:

krw used his keyboard to write :
In article <mn.a5307d9188b78d0d.90583@gmail.com>,
bare.arsed@gmail.com says...
krw explained on 19/01/2009 :
On Sun, 18 Jan 2009 19:35:00 +1100, Arlowe <bare.arsed@gmail.com
wrote:

on 16/01/2009, Paul supposed :
On Jan 15, 2:19 pm, "David L. Jones" <altz...@gmail.com> wrote:
"Paul" <energymo...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:54c2d7cf-c506-4647-b272-17d608c8854a@x8g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...

I'm testing a new DMM I purchased, AM-240 by Amprobe. It claims
*over* 100Mohm impedance in 400.0mV mode.

Nothing new there, many DMM's have selectable "high impedance" or
"HI-Z" modes on the mV range. e.g. the Fluke 87.


I've looked at the specs of ~ 30 DMM's today, include a lot of
fluke's, and never seen anything near 14Gohms impedance. Keithley has
an electrometer that's probably higher. Most DMM's are around 10Mohms
(not gigaohms) input impedance. Don't you think 14 gigaohms is a bit
high?

PL

The evil thing about Voltmeters with very high impedance is they will
read induced voltages that analog meters wouldn't.
It makes a voltmeter useless for checking for live circuits in a
crowded panel.

A craftsman never blames tools for his failures. Hackers, on the
other hand...

If you work with electricity you had better know the limitations of
your tools or you will find them...the hard way.

That is certainly true (though perhaps your heirs are the ones who
will find you), but doesn't modify my statement. In this case, the
tool *can* be used as long as the one using it knows what he's
doing.

Ok....everything seems to pass right over your head....
I pointed out a limitation of a DMM and you seem to be inferring that I
am somehow a hack who blames his tools...
BTW> I am not a "craftsman" I am an electrcian..
You don't do what I do for as many years as I have without knowing what
the fuck you are doing.


What's wrong with using a hi Z voltmeter in a live panel? I do it more
often than I really care for, and never have a problem.

There isn't anything wrong with it. Analog meters are dead. High
impedance digital meters are only a problem if there is a loose nut
inside the panel, holding the leads.
Click to expand...
I don't test for live circuits with a DMM.
I use test lamps or a low(er) impedance voltmeter.
If you worked for me I would sack your arse if I caught you using a DMM
to test for live.
 
After serious thinking krw wrote :
In article <31f7ee1b-796f-4a26-a7e4-7755648e2ad2@
35g2000pry.googlegroups.com>, energymover@gmail.com says...
On Jan 21, 8:17 am, Paul <energymo...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jan 21, 7:34 am, Stuart <Spam...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:

In article <MPG.23e0f291d9e4acfc989...@news.individual.net>,
   krw <k...@att.zzzzzzzzz> wrote:
Totally useless in areas of high RF.
Wrong.

That statement simply exposes another large hole in your knowledge and
experience.

I spent 20 years on a high power HF transmitting station - believe me - I
*know*

As the man says, the proper tool for the job

I would agree. Take two meters. One is 1Kohms. The other is 1Gohms. If
the load is low impedance, say 100 ohms, then there's an appreciable
error with the low impedance meter-- simple ohms law. While the error
associate with the high impedance meter is unmeasurable.

People are probably confusing the fact that a high impedance meter
while unconnected to anything will pick up signals, for obvious
reasons.

Paul


Sorry, I didn't pay much attention who I was replying to. I'm not
taking sides, but I am saying that high impedance meters are better.

Right. It's easy to lower the effective impedance of a high
impedance meter. Going the other way is a lot harder.
Click to expand...
No, you carry the correct tools. You use a load to test for live/dead
circuits, not a DMM. (I use test lamps with fuse protected leads). If
you need to measure voltage, then you use a voltmeter...how hard is
that to understand????
 
In article <MPG.23e1674edaa98822989876@news.individual.net>,
krw <krw@att.zzzzzzzzz> wrote:

That wasn't at issue here. The statement was made that a high
impedance meter couldn't be used and that a low impedance *ANALOG*
meter was a necessity. It's certainly not true, though one has to
understand what one is doing, again a rarity in this group.
Click to expand...
Who said anything about it being *analogue* ?

Impedance is a property of the input of the meter not the display type.

I've used high and low impedance analogue meters and the same in digital
form.
 
krw used his keyboard to write :
In article <2933ea53-af2a-43a8-86c7-d9e2ec400d99@
35g2000pry.googlegroups.com>, altzone@gmail.com says...
On Jan 21, 10:40 pm, krw <k...@att.zzzzzzzzz> wrote:
In article <9caaa5aa-54e2-4f21-a324-1f2ca8bdd389
@n33g2000pri.googlegroups.com>, altz...@gmail.com says...



On Jan 21, 2:09 pm, krw <k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:
On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 19:06:15 -0800 (PST), "David L. Jones"
altz...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jan 21, 12:22 pm, krw <k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:
On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 22:05:27 -0300, YD <ydtech...@techie.com> wrote:
Late at night, by candle light, Arlowe <bare.ar...@gmail.com> penned
this immortal opus:

krw used his keyboard to write :
In article <mn.a5307d9188b78d0d.90...@gmail.com>,
bare.ar...@gmail.com says...
krw explained on 19/01/2009 :
On Sun, 18 Jan 2009 19:35:00 +1100, Arlowe <bare.ar...@gmail.com
wrote:

on 16/01/2009, Paul supposed :
On Jan 15, 2:19 pm, "David L. Jones" <altz...@gmail.com> wrote:
"Paul" <energymo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:54c2d7cf-c506-4647-b272-17d608c8854a@x8g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
I'm testing a new DMM I purchased, AM-240 by Amprobe. It
claims *over* 100Mohm impedance in 400.0mV mode.
Nothing new there, many DMM's have selectable "high impedance"
or "HI-Z" modes on the mV range. e.g. the Fluke 87.
I've looked at the specs of ~ 30 DMM's today, include a lot of
fluke's, and never seen anything near 14Gohms impedance.
Keithley has an electrometer that's probably higher. Most DMM's
are around 10Mohms (not gigaohms) input impedance. Don't you
think 14 gigaohms is a bit high?

PL

The evil thing about Voltmeters with very high impedance is they
will read induced voltages that analog meters wouldn't.
It makes a voltmeter useless for checking for live circuits in a
crowded panel.

A craftsman never blames tools for his failures. Hackers, on the
other hand...

If you work with electricity you had better know the limitations of
your tools or you will find them...the hard way.
That is certainly true (though perhaps your heirs are the ones who
will find you), but doesn't modify my statement. In this case, the
tool *can* be used as long as the one using it knows what he's
doing.

Ok....everything seems to pass right over your head....
I pointed out a limitation of a DMM and you seem to be inferring that
I am somehow a hack who blames his tools...
BTW> I am not a "craftsman" I am an electrcian..
You don't do what I do for as many years as I have without knowing
what the fuck you are doing.

What's wrong with using a hi Z voltmeter in a live panel? I do it more
often than I really care for, and never have a problem.
There isn't anything wrong with it. Analog meters are dead. High
impedance digital meters are only a problem if there is a loose nut
inside the panel, holding the leads.
Then I suppose Fluke and others make all those purpose designed Low-Z
electrical meters for loose nuts then?
...and electricians who know nothing about electricity, perhaps.
But at least smart enough to chose the right tool for the job.

For an electrician who know nothing about electricity (99.44% of
them, apparently), or if that's all one is ever going to do with
the meter, perhaps.

Yes, electricians generally just do just the one similar job. That's
why they make meters designed for just such specific purposes.
Giving your average electrician say a Fluke 289 is a bit overkill and
would likely not be as productive as a more job specific instrument.

That wasn't at issue here. The statement was made that a high
impedance meter couldn't be used and that a low impedance *ANALOG*
meter was a necessity. It's certainly not true, though one has to
understand what one is doing, again a rarity in this group.
Click to expand...
I didn't say you had to use an analog meter.
I said that they do not have the same problem. An analog meter "IS A
LOAD" a DMM is NOT.
 
Rich Grise laid this down on his screen :
On Sun, 18 Jan 2009 19:35:00 +1100, Arlowe wrote:

The evil thing about Voltmeters with very high impedance is they will read
induced voltages that analog meters wouldn't. It makes a voltmeter useless
for checking for live circuits in a crowded panel.

Then pick the right voltmeter for the job, duh.

Hope This Helps!
Rich
Click to expand...
No shit...
exactly my point. A voltmeter with a high impedance is not the tool to
use to test for live circuits....
 
In article <mn.b4b17d914564800a.90583@gmail.com>,
bare.arsed@gmail.com says...>
After serious thinking krw wrote :
In article <31f7ee1b-796f-4a26-a7e4-7755648e2ad2@
35g2000pry.googlegroups.com>, energymover@gmail.com says...
On Jan 21, 8:17 am, Paul <energymo...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jan 21, 7:34 am, Stuart <Spam...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:

In article <MPG.23e0f291d9e4acfc989...@news.individual.net>,
   krw <k...@att.zzzzzzzzz> wrote:
Totally useless in areas of high RF.
Wrong.

That statement simply exposes another large hole in your knowledge and
experience.

I spent 20 years on a high power HF transmitting station - believe me - I
*know*

As the man says, the proper tool for the job

I would agree. Take two meters. One is 1Kohms. The other is 1Gohms. If
the load is low impedance, say 100 ohms, then there's an appreciable
error with the low impedance meter-- simple ohms law. While the error
associate with the high impedance meter is unmeasurable.

People are probably confusing the fact that a high impedance meter
while unconnected to anything will pick up signals, for obvious
reasons.

Paul


Sorry, I didn't pay much attention who I was replying to. I'm not
taking sides, but I am saying that high impedance meters are better.

Right. It's easy to lower the effective impedance of a high
impedance meter. Going the other way is a lot harder.

No, you carry the correct tools. You use a load to test for live/dead
circuits, not a DMM. (I use test lamps with fuse protected leads). If
you need to measure voltage, then you use a voltmeter...how hard is
that to understand????
Click to expand...
Sparky, carry crap tools? Ok, you don't need much and evidently
can't handle a good tool.
 
In article <0c6126c3-315f-49c2-97b3-
c2d472cc56ec@g3g2000pre.googlegroups.com>, altzone@gmail.com
says...>
On Jan 22, 11:41 am, krw <k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:
On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 17:04:38 -0800 (PST), "David L. Jones"

altz...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jan 22, 10:10 am, krw <k...@att.zzzzzzzzz> wrote:
That wasn't at issue here. The statement was made that a high
impedance meter couldn't be used and that a low impedance *ANALOG*
meter was a necessity.

Ok, I haven't followed the entire silly thread.
From my side I've only been proposing that high impedance meters can
be a problem, and the solution is using the right tool for the job.

Yes, they can be a problem if YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU'RE DOING.

The same with ANY measurement instrument, nothing unique here at all.

If you know what you're doing you can get the right reading form a
high impedance meter just as well as one that has been crippled by the
manufacturer.

Crippled? Hardly the right term, try purposely designed.
Click to expand...
It is exactly the right term. It is a high impedance meter that
has a shunt added to cripple it's input impedance.

Just like you wouldn't go around saying a meters DC range is
"crippled" because it's 0.5% when they could have made it 0.1%.
Or a meters current range is "crippled" because it has a burden
voltage of 10mV/mA instead of 1mV/mA.
etc.
Click to expand...
If it was a .1% meter with the .5% feature added, yes, it was
"crippled".

Usually, with meters, a lower spec is done to meet a lower price
point. But in the case in question it is done for the purpose of
meeting a (niche) market need. A tool is not crippled just because it
doesn't meet YOUR job spec.
Click to expand...
It does one thing and one thing only. The uncrippled meter will
work in a wider variety of circumstances, though we are getting
pretty far from the original point.
 
In article <50218de5f5Spambin@argonet.co.uk>, Spambin@argonet.co.uk
says...>
In article <MPG.23e1674edaa98822989876@news.individual.net>,
krw <krw@att.zzzzzzzzz> wrote:

That wasn't at issue here. The statement was made that a high
impedance meter couldn't be used and that a low impedance *ANALOG*
meter was a necessity. It's certainly not true, though one has to
understand what one is doing, again a rarity in this group.

Who said anything about it being *analogue* ?
Click to expand...
Jump into a discussion late, with both feet, often?

Impedance is a property of the input of the meter not the display type.
Click to expand...
Read the thread.

I've used high and low impedance analogue meters and the same in digital
form.
Click to expand...
Wow! I'm impressed! For a sparky, you're pretty sharp, there.
 
In article <mn.b4a77d91b151170f.90583@gmail.com>,
bare.arsed@gmail.com says...>
krw explained on 21/01/2009 :
On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 22:05:27 -0300, YD <ydtechHAT@techie.com> wrote:

Late at night, by candle light, Arlowe <bare.arsed@gmail.com> penned
this immortal opus:

krw used his keyboard to write :
In article <mn.a5307d9188b78d0d.90583@gmail.com>,
bare.arsed@gmail.com says...
krw explained on 19/01/2009 :
On Sun, 18 Jan 2009 19:35:00 +1100, Arlowe <bare.arsed@gmail.com
wrote:

on 16/01/2009, Paul supposed :
On Jan 15, 2:19 pm, "David L. Jones" <altz...@gmail.com> wrote:
"Paul" <energymo...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:54c2d7cf-c506-4647-b272-17d608c8854a@x8g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...

I'm testing a new DMM I purchased, AM-240 by Amprobe. It claims
*over* 100Mohm impedance in 400.0mV mode.

Nothing new there, many DMM's have selectable "high impedance" or
"HI-Z" modes on the mV range. e.g. the Fluke 87.


I've looked at the specs of ~ 30 DMM's today, include a lot of
fluke's, and never seen anything near 14Gohms impedance. Keithley has
an electrometer that's probably higher. Most DMM's are around 10Mohms
(not gigaohms) input impedance. Don't you think 14 gigaohms is a bit
high?

PL

The evil thing about Voltmeters with very high impedance is they will
read induced voltages that analog meters wouldn't.
It makes a voltmeter useless for checking for live circuits in a
crowded panel.

A craftsman never blames tools for his failures. Hackers, on the
other hand...

If you work with electricity you had better know the limitations of
your tools or you will find them...the hard way.

That is certainly true (though perhaps your heirs are the ones who
will find you), but doesn't modify my statement. In this case, the
tool *can* be used as long as the one using it knows what he's
doing.

Ok....everything seems to pass right over your head....
I pointed out a limitation of a DMM and you seem to be inferring that I
am somehow a hack who blames his tools...
BTW> I am not a "craftsman" I am an electrcian..
You don't do what I do for as many years as I have without knowing what
the fuck you are doing.


What's wrong with using a hi Z voltmeter in a live panel? I do it more
often than I really care for, and never have a problem.

There isn't anything wrong with it. Analog meters are dead. High
impedance digital meters are only a problem if there is a loose nut
inside the panel, holding the leads.

I don't test for live circuits with a DMM.
I use test lamps or a low(er) impedance voltmeter.
Click to expand...
SO there *is* something wrong with a digital meter. I thought you
sparkys were just telling me that the display type didn't matter.

If you worked for me I would sack your arse if I caught you using a DMM
to test for live.
Click to expand...
You couldn't afford me. I understand electricity.
 
It happens that krw formulated :
In article <mn.b4a77d91b151170f.90583@gmail.com>,
bare.arsed@gmail.com says...
krw explained on 21/01/2009 :
On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 22:05:27 -0300, YD <ydtechHAT@techie.com> wrote:

Late at night, by candle light, Arlowe <bare.arsed@gmail.com> penned
this immortal opus:

krw used his keyboard to write :
In article <mn.a5307d9188b78d0d.90583@gmail.com>,
bare.arsed@gmail.com says...
krw explained on 19/01/2009 :
On Sun, 18 Jan 2009 19:35:00 +1100, Arlowe <bare.arsed@gmail.com
wrote:

on 16/01/2009, Paul supposed :
On Jan 15, 2:19 pm, "David L. Jones" <altz...@gmail.com> wrote:
"Paul" <energymo...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:54c2d7cf-c506-4647-b272-17d608c8854a@x8g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...

I'm testing a new DMM I purchased, AM-240 by Amprobe. It claims
*over* 100Mohm impedance in 400.0mV mode.

Nothing new there, many DMM's have selectable "high impedance" or
"HI-Z" modes on the mV range. e.g. the Fluke 87.


I've looked at the specs of ~ 30 DMM's today, include a lot of
fluke's, and never seen anything near 14Gohms impedance. Keithley
has an electrometer that's probably higher. Most DMM's are around
10Mohms (not gigaohms) input impedance. Don't you think 14 gigaohms
is a bit high?

PL

The evil thing about Voltmeters with very high impedance is they will
read induced voltages that analog meters wouldn't.
It makes a voltmeter useless for checking for live circuits in a
crowded panel.

A craftsman never blames tools for his failures. Hackers, on the
other hand...

If you work with electricity you had better know the limitations of
your tools or you will find them...the hard way.

That is certainly true (though perhaps your heirs are the ones who
will find you), but doesn't modify my statement. In this case, the
tool *can* be used as long as the one using it knows what he's
doing.

Ok....everything seems to pass right over your head....
I pointed out a limitation of a DMM and you seem to be inferring that I
am somehow a hack who blames his tools...
BTW> I am not a "craftsman" I am an electrcian..
You don't do what I do for as many years as I have without knowing what
the fuck you are doing.


What's wrong with using a hi Z voltmeter in a live panel? I do it more
often than I really care for, and never have a problem.

There isn't anything wrong with it. Analog meters are dead. High
impedance digital meters are only a problem if there is a loose nut
inside the panel, holding the leads.

I don't test for live circuits with a DMM.
I use test lamps or a low(er) impedance voltmeter.

SO there *is* something wrong with a digital meter. I thought you
sparkys were just telling me that the display type didn't matter.

If you worked for me I would sack your arse if I caught you using a DMM
to test for live.

You couldn't afford me. I understand electricity.
Click to expand...
bullshit.
you are just another wannabe...
 
In article <mn.b81e7d91ce4eaf86.90583@gmail.com>,
bare.arsed@gmail.com says...>
It happens that krw formulated :
In article <mn.b4a77d91b151170f.90583@gmail.com>,
bare.arsed@gmail.com says...
krw explained on 21/01/2009 :
On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 22:05:27 -0300, YD <ydtechHAT@techie.com> wrote:

Late at night, by candle light, Arlowe <bare.arsed@gmail.com> penned
this immortal opus:

krw used his keyboard to write :
In article <mn.a5307d9188b78d0d.90583@gmail.com>,
bare.arsed@gmail.com says...
krw explained on 19/01/2009 :
On Sun, 18 Jan 2009 19:35:00 +1100, Arlowe <bare.arsed@gmail.com
wrote:

on 16/01/2009, Paul supposed :
On Jan 15, 2:19 pm, "David L. Jones" <altz...@gmail.com> wrote:
"Paul" <energymo...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:54c2d7cf-c506-4647-b272-17d608c8854a@x8g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...

I'm testing a new DMM I purchased, AM-240 by Amprobe. It claims
*over* 100Mohm impedance in 400.0mV mode.

Nothing new there, many DMM's have selectable "high impedance" or
"HI-Z" modes on the mV range. e.g. the Fluke 87.


I've looked at the specs of ~ 30 DMM's today, include a lot of
fluke's, and never seen anything near 14Gohms impedance. Keithley
has an electrometer that's probably higher. Most DMM's are around
10Mohms (not gigaohms) input impedance. Don't you think 14 gigaohms
is a bit high?

PL

The evil thing about Voltmeters with very high impedance is they will
read induced voltages that analog meters wouldn't.
It makes a voltmeter useless for checking for live circuits in a
crowded panel.

A craftsman never blames tools for his failures. Hackers, on the
other hand...

If you work with electricity you had better know the limitations of
your tools or you will find them...the hard way.

That is certainly true (though perhaps your heirs are the ones who
will find you), but doesn't modify my statement. In this case, the
tool *can* be used as long as the one using it knows what he's
doing.

Ok....everything seems to pass right over your head....
I pointed out a limitation of a DMM and you seem to be inferring that I
am somehow a hack who blames his tools...
BTW> I am not a "craftsman" I am an electrcian..
You don't do what I do for as many years as I have without knowing what
the fuck you are doing.


What's wrong with using a hi Z voltmeter in a live panel? I do it more
often than I really care for, and never have a problem.

There isn't anything wrong with it. Analog meters are dead. High
impedance digital meters are only a problem if there is a loose nut
inside the panel, holding the leads.

I don't test for live circuits with a DMM.
I use test lamps or a low(er) impedance voltmeter.

SO there *is* something wrong with a digital meter. I thought you
sparkys were just telling me that the display type didn't matter.

If you worked for me I would sack your arse if I caught you using a DMM
to test for live.

You couldn't afford me. I understand electricity.

bullshit.
you are just another wannabe...
Click to expand...
Heavens no! I have no interest in becoming a sparky. Crappy work,
low pay, and no fun.
 
krw laid this down on his screen :
In article <mn.b81e7d91ce4eaf86.90583@gmail.com>,
bare.arsed@gmail.com says...
It happens that krw formulated :
In article <mn.b4a77d91b151170f.90583@gmail.com>,
bare.arsed@gmail.com says...
krw explained on 21/01/2009 :
On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 22:05:27 -0300, YD <ydtechHAT@techie.com> wrote:

Late at night, by candle light, Arlowe <bare.arsed@gmail.com> penned
this immortal opus:

krw used his keyboard to write :
In article <mn.a5307d9188b78d0d.90583@gmail.com>,
bare.arsed@gmail.com says...
krw explained on 19/01/2009 :
On Sun, 18 Jan 2009 19:35:00 +1100, Arlowe <bare.arsed@gmail.com
wrote:

on 16/01/2009, Paul supposed :
On Jan 15, 2:19 pm, "David L. Jones" <altz...@gmail.com> wrote:
"Paul" <energymo...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:54c2d7cf-c506-4647-b272-17d608c8854a@x8g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...

I'm testing a new DMM I purchased, AM-240 by Amprobe. It claims
*over* 100Mohm impedance in 400.0mV mode.

Nothing new there, many DMM's have selectable "high impedance" or
"HI-Z" modes on the mV range. e.g. the Fluke 87.


I've looked at the specs of ~ 30 DMM's today, include a lot of
fluke's, and never seen anything near 14Gohms impedance. Keithley
has an electrometer that's probably higher. Most DMM's are around
10Mohms (not gigaohms) input impedance. Don't you think 14
gigaohms is a bit high?

PL

The evil thing about Voltmeters with very high impedance is they
will read induced voltages that analog meters wouldn't.
It makes a voltmeter useless for checking for live circuits in a
crowded panel.

A craftsman never blames tools for his failures. Hackers, on the
other hand...

If you work with electricity you had better know the limitations of
your tools or you will find them...the hard way.

That is certainly true (though perhaps your heirs are the ones who
will find you), but doesn't modify my statement. In this case, the
tool *can* be used as long as the one using it knows what he's
doing.

Ok....everything seems to pass right over your head....
I pointed out a limitation of a DMM and you seem to be inferring that I
am somehow a hack who blames his tools...
BTW> I am not a "craftsman" I am an electrcian..
You don't do what I do for as many years as I have without knowing what
the fuck you are doing.


What's wrong with using a hi Z voltmeter in a live panel? I do it more
often than I really care for, and never have a problem.

There isn't anything wrong with it. Analog meters are dead. High
impedance digital meters are only a problem if there is a loose nut
inside the panel, holding the leads.

I don't test for live circuits with a DMM.
I use test lamps or a low(er) impedance voltmeter.

SO there *is* something wrong with a digital meter. I thought you
sparkys were just telling me that the display type didn't matter.

If you worked for me I would sack your arse if I caught you using a DMM
to test for live.

You couldn't afford me. I understand electricity.

bullshit.
you are just another wannabe...

Heavens no! I have no interest in becoming a sparky. Crappy work,
low pay, and no fun.
Click to expand...
Only for cable monkeys.
Find the right niche and you can name your price.
 
In article <mn.b84c7d914fa4be4b.90583@gmail.com>,
bare.arsed@gmail.com says...>
krw laid this down on his screen :
In article <mn.b81e7d91ce4eaf86.90583@gmail.com>,
bare.arsed@gmail.com says...
It happens that krw formulated :
In article <mn.b4a77d91b151170f.90583@gmail.com>,
bare.arsed@gmail.com says...
krw explained on 21/01/2009 :
On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 22:05:27 -0300, YD <ydtechHAT@techie.com> wrote:

Late at night, by candle light, Arlowe <bare.arsed@gmail.com> penned
this immortal opus:

krw used his keyboard to write :
In article <mn.a5307d9188b78d0d.90583@gmail.com>,
bare.arsed@gmail.com says...
krw explained on 19/01/2009 :
On Sun, 18 Jan 2009 19:35:00 +1100, Arlowe <bare.arsed@gmail.com
wrote:

on 16/01/2009, Paul supposed :
On Jan 15, 2:19 pm, "David L. Jones" <altz...@gmail.com> wrote:
"Paul" <energymo...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:54c2d7cf-c506-4647-b272-17d608c8854a@x8g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...

I'm testing a new DMM I purchased, AM-240 by Amprobe. It claims
*over* 100Mohm impedance in 400.0mV mode.

Nothing new there, many DMM's have selectable "high impedance" or
"HI-Z" modes on the mV range. e.g. the Fluke 87.


I've looked at the specs of ~ 30 DMM's today, include a lot of
fluke's, and never seen anything near 14Gohms impedance. Keithley
has an electrometer that's probably higher. Most DMM's are around
10Mohms (not gigaohms) input impedance. Don't you think 14
gigaohms is a bit high?

PL

The evil thing about Voltmeters with very high impedance is they
will read induced voltages that analog meters wouldn't.
It makes a voltmeter useless for checking for live circuits in a
crowded panel.

A craftsman never blames tools for his failures. Hackers, on the
other hand...

If you work with electricity you had better know the limitations of
your tools or you will find them...the hard way.

That is certainly true (though perhaps your heirs are the ones who
will find you), but doesn't modify my statement. In this case, the
tool *can* be used as long as the one using it knows what he's
doing.

Ok....everything seems to pass right over your head....
I pointed out a limitation of a DMM and you seem to be inferring that I
am somehow a hack who blames his tools...
BTW> I am not a "craftsman" I am an electrcian..
You don't do what I do for as many years as I have without knowing what
the fuck you are doing.


What's wrong with using a hi Z voltmeter in a live panel? I do it more
often than I really care for, and never have a problem.

There isn't anything wrong with it. Analog meters are dead. High
impedance digital meters are only a problem if there is a loose nut
inside the panel, holding the leads.

I don't test for live circuits with a DMM.
I use test lamps or a low(er) impedance voltmeter.

SO there *is* something wrong with a digital meter. I thought you
sparkys were just telling me that the display type didn't matter.

If you worked for me I would sack your arse if I caught you using a DMM
to test for live.

You couldn't afford me. I understand electricity.

bullshit.
you are just another wannabe...

Heavens no! I have no interest in becoming a sparky. Crappy work,
low pay, and no fun.

Only for cable monkeys.
Find the right niche and you can name your price.
Click to expand...
So even in a perfect niche it's still crappy work and no fun, but
pays well (doubt it). Even your perfect niche is two huge steps
down. No thanks.
 
It happens that krw formulated :
In article <mn.b84c7d914fa4be4b.90583@gmail.com>,
bare.arsed@gmail.com says...
krw laid this down on his screen :
In article <mn.b81e7d91ce4eaf86.90583@gmail.com>,
bare.arsed@gmail.com says...
It happens that krw formulated :
In article <mn.b4a77d91b151170f.90583@gmail.com>,
bare.arsed@gmail.com says...
krw explained on 21/01/2009 :
On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 22:05:27 -0300, YD <ydtechHAT@techie.com> wrote:

Late at night, by candle light, Arlowe <bare.arsed@gmail.com> penned
this immortal opus:

krw used his keyboard to write :
In article <mn.a5307d9188b78d0d.90583@gmail.com>,
bare.arsed@gmail.com says...
krw explained on 19/01/2009 :
On Sun, 18 Jan 2009 19:35:00 +1100, Arlowe <bare.arsed@gmail.com
wrote:

on 16/01/2009, Paul supposed :
On Jan 15, 2:19 pm, "David L. Jones" <altz...@gmail.com> wrote:
"Paul" <energymo...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:54c2d7cf-c506-4647-b272-17d608c8854a@x8g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...

I'm testing a new DMM I purchased, AM-240 by Amprobe. It
claims *over* 100Mohm impedance in 400.0mV mode.

Nothing new there, many DMM's have selectable "high impedance"
or "HI-Z" modes on the mV range. e.g. the Fluke 87.


I've looked at the specs of ~ 30 DMM's today, include a lot of
fluke's, and never seen anything near 14Gohms impedance.
Keithley has an electrometer that's probably higher. Most DMM's
are around 10Mohms (not gigaohms) input impedance. Don't you
think 14 gigaohms is a bit high?

PL

The evil thing about Voltmeters with very high impedance is they
will read induced voltages that analog meters wouldn't.
It makes a voltmeter useless for checking for live circuits in a
crowded panel.

A craftsman never blames tools for his failures. Hackers, on the
other hand...

If you work with electricity you had better know the limitations of
your tools or you will find them...the hard way.

That is certainly true (though perhaps your heirs are the ones who
will find you), but doesn't modify my statement. In this case, the
tool *can* be used as long as the one using it knows what he's
doing.

Ok....everything seems to pass right over your head....
I pointed out a limitation of a DMM and you seem to be inferring that
I am somehow a hack who blames his tools...
BTW> I am not a "craftsman" I am an electrcian..
You don't do what I do for as many years as I have without knowing
what the fuck you are doing.


What's wrong with using a hi Z voltmeter in a live panel? I do it more
often than I really care for, and never have a problem.

There isn't anything wrong with it. Analog meters are dead. High
impedance digital meters are only a problem if there is a loose nut
inside the panel, holding the leads.

I don't test for live circuits with a DMM.
I use test lamps or a low(er) impedance voltmeter.

SO there *is* something wrong with a digital meter. I thought you
sparkys were just telling me that the display type didn't matter.

If you worked for me I would sack your arse if I caught you using a DMM
to test for live.

You couldn't afford me. I understand electricity.

bullshit.
you are just another wannabe...

Heavens no! I have no interest in becoming a sparky. Crappy work,
low pay, and no fun.

Only for cable monkeys.
Find the right niche and you can name your price.

So even in a perfect niche it's still crappy work and no fun, but
pays well (doubt it). Even your perfect niche is two huge steps
down. No thanks.
Click to expand...
So you know nothing about working in the field...and you accuse me of
not knowing how to use my tools?

lol
 
In article <mn.b8627d9173a3a4d8.90583@gmail.com>,
bare.arsed@gmail.com says...>
It happens that krw formulated :
In article <mn.b84c7d914fa4be4b.90583@gmail.com>,
bare.arsed@gmail.com says...
krw laid this down on his screen :
In article <mn.b81e7d91ce4eaf86.90583@gmail.com>,
bare.arsed@gmail.com says...
It happens that krw formulated :
In article <mn.b4a77d91b151170f.90583@gmail.com>,
bare.arsed@gmail.com says...
krw explained on 21/01/2009 :
On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 22:05:27 -0300, YD <ydtechHAT@techie.com> wrote:

Late at night, by candle light, Arlowe <bare.arsed@gmail.com> penned
this immortal opus:

krw used his keyboard to write :
In article <mn.a5307d9188b78d0d.90583@gmail.com>,
bare.arsed@gmail.com says...
krw explained on 19/01/2009 :
On Sun, 18 Jan 2009 19:35:00 +1100, Arlowe <bare.arsed@gmail..com
wrote:

on 16/01/2009, Paul supposed :
On Jan 15, 2:19 pm, "David L. Jones" <altz...@gmail.com> wrote:
"Paul" <energymo...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:54c2d7cf-c506-4647-b272-17d608c8854a@x8g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...

I'm testing a new DMM I purchased, AM-240 by Amprobe. It
claims *over* 100Mohm impedance in 400.0mV mode.

Nothing new there, many DMM's have selectable "high impedance"
or "HI-Z" modes on the mV range. e.g. the Fluke 87.


I've looked at the specs of ~ 30 DMM's today, include a lot of
fluke's, and never seen anything near 14Gohms impedance.
Keithley has an electrometer that's probably higher. Most DMM's
are around 10Mohms (not gigaohms) input impedance. Don't you
think 14 gigaohms is a bit high?

PL

The evil thing about Voltmeters with very high impedance is they
will read induced voltages that analog meters wouldn't.
It makes a voltmeter useless for checking for live circuits in a
crowded panel.

A craftsman never blames tools for his failures. Hackers, on the
other hand...

If you work with electricity you had better know the limitations of
your tools or you will find them...the hard way.

That is certainly true (though perhaps your heirs are the ones who
will find you), but doesn't modify my statement. In this case, the
tool *can* be used as long as the one using it knows what he's
doing.

Ok....everything seems to pass right over your head....
I pointed out a limitation of a DMM and you seem to be inferring that
I am somehow a hack who blames his tools...
BTW> I am not a "craftsman" I am an electrcian..
You don't do what I do for as many years as I have without knowing
what the fuck you are doing.


What's wrong with using a hi Z voltmeter in a live panel? I do it more
often than I really care for, and never have a problem.

There isn't anything wrong with it. Analog meters are dead. High
impedance digital meters are only a problem if there is a loose nut
inside the panel, holding the leads.

I don't test for live circuits with a DMM.
I use test lamps or a low(er) impedance voltmeter.

SO there *is* something wrong with a digital meter. I thought you
sparkys were just telling me that the display type didn't matter.

If you worked for me I would sack your arse if I caught you using a DMM
to test for live.

You couldn't afford me. I understand electricity.

bullshit.
you are just another wannabe...

Heavens no! I have no interest in becoming a sparky. Crappy work,
low pay, and no fun.

Only for cable monkeys.
Find the right niche and you can name your price.

So even in a perfect niche it's still crappy work and no fun, but
pays well (doubt it). Even your perfect niche is two huge steps
down. No thanks.

So you know nothing about working in the field...
Click to expand...
I know enough to have a better life.

and you accuse me of
not knowing how to use my tools?
Click to expand...
No, I accuse you of not understanding electricity.
 
In article <mn.b4a77d91b151170f.90583@gmail.com>,
Arlowe <bare.arsed@gmail.com> wrote:

I don't test for live circuits with a DMM.
I use test lamps or a low(er) impedance voltmeter.
If you worked for me I would sack your arse if I caught you using a DMM
to test for live.
Click to expand...
Nice to know someone round here knows what they are doing!
 
Arlowe wrote:
krw used his keyboard to write :
In article <2933ea53-af2a-43a8-86c7-d9e2ec400d99@
35g2000pry.googlegroups.com>, altzone@gmail.com says...
On Jan 21, 10:40 pm, krw <k...@att.zzzzzzzzz> wrote:
In article <9caaa5aa-54e2-4f21-a324-1f2ca8bdd389
@n33g2000pri.googlegroups.com>, altz...@gmail.com says...



On Jan 21, 2:09 pm, krw <k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:
On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 19:06:15 -0800 (PST), "David L. Jones"
altz...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jan 21, 12:22 pm, krw <k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:
On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 22:05:27 -0300, YD <ydtech...@techie.com> wrote:
Late at night, by candle light, Arlowe <bare.ar...@gmail.com> penned
this immortal opus:

krw used his keyboard to write :
In article <mn.a5307d9188b78d0d.90...@gmail.com>,
bare.ar...@gmail.com says...
krw explained on 19/01/2009 :
On Sun, 18 Jan 2009 19:35:00 +1100, Arlowe <bare.ar...@gmail.com
wrote:

on 16/01/2009, Paul supposed :
On Jan 15, 2:19 pm, "David L. Jones" <altz...@gmail.com> wrote:
"Paul" <energymo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:54c2d7cf-c506-4647-b272-17d608c8854a@x8g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
I'm testing a new DMM I purchased, AM-240 by Amprobe. It
claims *over* 100Mohm impedance in 400.0mV mode.
Nothing new there, many DMM's have selectable "high impedance"
or "HI-Z" modes on the mV range. e.g. the Fluke 87.
I've looked at the specs of ~ 30 DMM's today, include a lot of
fluke's, and never seen anything near 14Gohms impedance.
Keithley has an electrometer that's probably higher. Most DMM's
are around 10Mohms (not gigaohms) input impedance. Don't you
think 14 gigaohms is a bit high?

PL

The evil thing about Voltmeters with very high impedance is they
will read induced voltages that analog meters wouldn't.
It makes a voltmeter useless for checking for live circuits in a
crowded panel.

A craftsman never blames tools for his failures. Hackers, on the
other hand...

If you work with electricity you had better know the limitations of
your tools or you will find them...the hard way.
That is certainly true (though perhaps your heirs are the ones who
will find you), but doesn't modify my statement. In this case, the
tool *can* be used as long as the one using it knows what he's
doing.

Ok....everything seems to pass right over your head....
I pointed out a limitation of a DMM and you seem to be inferring that
I am somehow a hack who blames his tools...
BTW> I am not a "craftsman" I am an electrcian..
You don't do what I do for as many years as I have without knowing
what the fuck you are doing.

What's wrong with using a hi Z voltmeter in a live panel? I do it more
often than I really care for, and never have a problem.
There isn't anything wrong with it. Analog meters are dead. High
impedance digital meters are only a problem if there is a loose nut
inside the panel, holding the leads.
Then I suppose Fluke and others make all those purpose designed Low-Z
electrical meters for loose nuts then?
...and electricians who know nothing about electricity, perhaps.
But at least smart enough to chose the right tool for the job.

For an electrician who know nothing about electricity (99.44% of
them, apparently), or if that's all one is ever going to do with
the meter, perhaps.

Yes, electricians generally just do just the one similar job. That's
why they make meters designed for just such specific purposes.
Giving your average electrician say a Fluke 289 is a bit overkill and
would likely not be as productive as a more job specific instrument.

That wasn't at issue here. The statement was made that a high
impedance meter couldn't be used and that a low impedance *ANALOG*
meter was a necessity. It's certainly not true, though one has to
understand what one is doing, again a rarity in this group.

I didn't say you had to use an analog meter.
I said that they do not have the same problem. An analog meter "IS A
LOAD" a DMM is NOT.
Click to expand...

Really? They both use resistive divider networks across the DUT.


--
http://improve-usenet.org/index.html

aioe.org, Goggle Groups, and Web TV users must request to be white
listed, or I will not see your messages.

If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in
your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm


There are two kinds of people on this earth:
The crazy, and the insane.
The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy.
 
Arlowe wrote:
Rich Grise laid this down on his screen :
On Sun, 18 Jan 2009 19:35:00 +1100, Arlowe wrote:

The evil thing about Voltmeters with very high impedance is they will read
induced voltages that analog meters wouldn't. It makes a voltmeter useless
for checking for live circuits in a crowded panel.

Then pick the right voltmeter for the job, duh.

Hope This Helps!
Rich

No shit...
exactly my point. A voltmeter with a high impedance is not the tool to
use to test for live circuits....
Click to expand...

That depends on what you consider a live circuit.


--
http://improve-usenet.org/index.html

aioe.org, Goggle Groups, and Web TV users must request to be white
listed, or I will not see your messages.

If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in
your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm


There are two kinds of people on this earth:
The crazy, and the insane.
The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy.
 
On Fri, 23 Jan 2009 00:30:44 +1100, Arlowe <bare.arsed@gmail.com> wrote:

It happens that krw formulated :
In article <mn.b4a77d91b151170f.90583@gmail.com>,
bare.arsed@gmail.com says...
krw explained on 21/01/2009 :
On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 22:05:27 -0300, YD <ydtechHAT@techie.com> wrote:

Late at night, by candle light, Arlowe <bare.arsed@gmail.com> penned
this immortal opus:

krw used his keyboard to write :
In article <mn.a5307d9188b78d0d.90583@gmail.com>,
bare.arsed@gmail.com says...
krw explained on 19/01/2009 :
On Sun, 18 Jan 2009 19:35:00 +1100, Arlowe <bare.arsed@gmail.com
wrote:

on 16/01/2009, Paul supposed :
On Jan 15, 2:19 pm, "David L. Jones" <altz...@gmail.com> wrote:
"Paul" <energymo...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:54c2d7cf-c506-4647-b272-17d608c8854a@x8g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...

I'm testing a new DMM I purchased, AM-240 by Amprobe. It claims
*over* 100Mohm impedance in 400.0mV mode.

Nothing new there, many DMM's have selectable "high impedance" or
"HI-Z" modes on the mV range. e.g. the Fluke 87.


I've looked at the specs of ~ 30 DMM's today, include a lot of
fluke's, and never seen anything near 14Gohms impedance. Keithley
has an electrometer that's probably higher. Most DMM's are around
10Mohms (not gigaohms) input impedance. Don't you think 14 gigaohms
is a bit high?

PL

The evil thing about Voltmeters with very high impedance is they will
read induced voltages that analog meters wouldn't.
It makes a voltmeter useless for checking for live circuits in a
crowded panel.

A craftsman never blames tools for his failures. Hackers, on the
other hand...

If you work with electricity you had better know the limitations of
your tools or you will find them...the hard way.

That is certainly true (though perhaps your heirs are the ones who
will find you), but doesn't modify my statement. In this case, the
tool *can* be used as long as the one using it knows what he's
doing.

Ok....everything seems to pass right over your head....
I pointed out a limitation of a DMM and you seem to be inferring that I
am somehow a hack who blames his tools...
BTW> I am not a "craftsman" I am an electrcian..
You don't do what I do for as many years as I have without knowing what
the fuck you are doing.


What's wrong with using a hi Z voltmeter in a live panel? I do it more
often than I really care for, and never have a problem.

There isn't anything wrong with it. Analog meters are dead. High
impedance digital meters are only a problem if there is a loose nut
inside the panel, holding the leads.

I don't test for live circuits with a DMM.
I use test lamps or a low(er) impedance voltmeter.

SO there *is* something wrong with a digital meter. I thought you
sparkys were just telling me that the display type didn't matter.

If you worked for me I would sack your arse if I caught you using a DMM
to test for live.

You couldn't afford me. I understand electricity.

bullshit.
you are just another wannabe...
Click to expand...
He was in electronics before you were a twitch between your daddy's
legs.
 
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