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It happens that krw formulated :
In article <mn.b84c7d914fa4be4b.90583@gmail.com>,
bare.arsed@gmail.com says...
krw laid this down on his screen :
In article <mn.b81e7d91ce4eaf86.90583@gmail.com>,
bare.arsed@gmail.com says...
It happens that krw formulated :
In article <mn.b4a77d91b151170f.90583@gmail.com>,
bare.arsed@gmail.com says...
krw explained on 21/01/2009 :
On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 22:05:27 -0300, YD <ydtechHAT@techie.com> wrote:
Late at night, by candle light, Arlowe <bare.arsed@gmail.com> penned
this immortal opus:
krw used his keyboard to write :
In article <mn.a5307d9188b78d0d.90583@gmail.com>,
bare.arsed@gmail.com says...
krw explained on 19/01/2009 :
On Sun, 18 Jan 2009 19:35:00 +1100, Arlowe <bare.arsed@gmail.com
wrote:
on 16/01/2009, Paul supposed :
On Jan 15, 2:19 pm, "David L. Jones" <altz...@gmail.com> wrote:
"Paul" <energymo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:54c2d7cf-c506-4647-b272-17d608c8854a@x8g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
I'm testing a new DMM I purchased, AM-240 by Amprobe. It
claims *over* 100Mohm impedance in 400.0mV mode.
Nothing new there, many DMM's have selectable "high impedance"
or "HI-Z" modes on the mV range. e.g. the Fluke 87.
I've looked at the specs of ~ 30 DMM's today, include a lot of
fluke's, and never seen anything near 14Gohms impedance.
Keithley has an electrometer that's probably higher. Most DMM's
are around 10Mohms (not gigaohms) input impedance. Don't you
think 14 gigaohms is a bit high?
PL
The evil thing about Voltmeters with very high impedance is they
will read induced voltages that analog meters wouldn't.
It makes a voltmeter useless for checking for live circuits in a
crowded panel.
A craftsman never blames tools for his failures. Hackers, on the
other hand...
If you work with electricity you had better know the limitations of
your tools or you will find them...the hard way.
That is certainly true (though perhaps your heirs are the ones who
will find you), but doesn't modify my statement. In this case, the
tool *can* be used as long as the one using it knows what he's
doing.
Ok....everything seems to pass right over your head....
I pointed out a limitation of a DMM and you seem to be inferring that
I am somehow a hack who blames his tools...
BTW> I am not a "craftsman" I am an electrcian..
You don't do what I do for as many years as I have without knowing
what the fuck you are doing.
What's wrong with using a hi Z voltmeter in a live panel? I do it more
often than I really care for, and never have a problem.
There isn't anything wrong with it. Analog meters are dead. High
impedance digital meters are only a problem if there is a loose nut
inside the panel, holding the leads.
I don't test for live circuits with a DMM.
I use test lamps or a low(er) impedance voltmeter.
SO there *is* something wrong with a digital meter. I thought you
sparkys were just telling me that the display type didn't matter.
If you worked for me I would sack your arse if I caught you using a DMM
to test for live.
You couldn't afford me. I understand electricity.
bullshit.
you are just another wannabe...
Heavens no! I have no interest in becoming a sparky. Crappy work,
low pay, and no fun.
Only for cable monkeys.
Find the right niche and you can name your price.
So even in a perfect niche it's still crappy work and no fun, but
pays well (doubt it). Even your perfect niche is two huge steps
down. No thanks.
So you know nothing about working in the field...and you accuse me of
not knowing how to use my tools?
lol
Show me where he declared knowing nothing about the field.
In article <mn.b4a77d91b151170f.90583@gmail.com>,
Arlowe <bare.arsed@gmail.com> wrote:
I don't test for live circuits with a DMM.
I use test lamps or a low(er) impedance voltmeter.
If you worked for me I would sack your arse if I caught you using a DMM
to test for live.
Nice to know someone round here knows what they are doing!
Just goes to show you know nothing about the field.In article <mn.b8627d9173a3a4d8.90583@gmail.com>,
bare.arsed@gmail.com says...
It happens that krw formulated :
In article <mn.b84c7d914fa4be4b.90583@gmail.com>,
bare.arsed@gmail.com says...
krw laid this down on his screen :
In article <mn.b81e7d91ce4eaf86.90583@gmail.com>,
bare.arsed@gmail.com says...
It happens that krw formulated :
In article <mn.b4a77d91b151170f.90583@gmail.com>,
bare.arsed@gmail.com says...
krw explained on 21/01/2009 :
On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 22:05:27 -0300, YD <ydtechHAT@techie.com> wrote:
Late at night, by candle light, Arlowe <bare.arsed@gmail.com> penned
this immortal opus:
krw used his keyboard to write :
In article <mn.a5307d9188b78d0d.90583@gmail.com>,
bare.arsed@gmail.com says...
krw explained on 19/01/2009 :
On Sun, 18 Jan 2009 19:35:00 +1100, Arlowe
bare.arsed@gmail.com> wrote:
on 16/01/2009, Paul supposed :
On Jan 15, 2:19 pm, "David L. Jones" <altz...@gmail.com
wrote:
"Paul" <energymo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:54c2d7cf-c506-4647-b272-17d608c8854a@x8g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
I'm testing a new DMM I purchased, AM-240 by Amprobe. It
claims *over* 100Mohm impedance in 400.0mV mode.
Nothing new there, many DMM's have selectable "high
impedance" or "HI-Z" modes on the mV range. e.g. the Fluke
87.
I've looked at the specs of ~ 30 DMM's today, include a lot of
fluke's, and never seen anything near 14Gohms impedance.
Keithley has an electrometer that's probably higher. Most
DMM's are around 10Mohms (not gigaohms) input impedance.
Don't you think 14 gigaohms is a bit high?
PL
The evil thing about Voltmeters with very high impedance is
they will read induced voltages that analog meters wouldn't.
It makes a voltmeter useless for checking for live circuits in
a crowded panel.
A craftsman never blames tools for his failures. Hackers, on
the other hand...
If you work with electricity you had better know the limitations
of your tools or you will find them...the hard way.
That is certainly true (though perhaps your heirs are the ones who
will find you), but doesn't modify my statement. In this case,
the tool *can* be used as long as the one using it knows what
he's doing.
Ok....everything seems to pass right over your head....
I pointed out a limitation of a DMM and you seem to be inferring
that I am somehow a hack who blames his tools...
BTW> I am not a "craftsman" I am an electrcian..
You don't do what I do for as many years as I have without knowing
what the fuck you are doing.
What's wrong with using a hi Z voltmeter in a live panel? I do it
more often than I really care for, and never have a problem.
There isn't anything wrong with it. Analog meters are dead. High
impedance digital meters are only a problem if there is a loose nut
inside the panel, holding the leads.
I don't test for live circuits with a DMM.
I use test lamps or a low(er) impedance voltmeter.
SO there *is* something wrong with a digital meter. I thought you
sparkys were just telling me that the display type didn't matter.
If you worked for me I would sack your arse if I caught you using a
DMM to test for live.
You couldn't afford me. I understand electricity.
bullshit.
you are just another wannabe...
Heavens no! I have no interest in becoming a sparky. Crappy work,
low pay, and no fun.
Only for cable monkeys.
Find the right niche and you can name your price.
So even in a perfect niche it's still crappy work and no fun, but
pays well (doubt it). Even your perfect niche is two huge steps
down. No thanks.
So you know nothing about working in the field...
I know enough to have a better life.
Well, I am accusing you of the same.and you accuse me of
not knowing how to use my tools?
No, I accuse you of not understanding electricity.
You are an idiot if you can not see the potential for error.On Thu, 22 Jan 2009 17:28:17 +0000 (GMT), Stuart <Spambin@argonet.co.uk
wrote:
In article <mn.b4a77d91b151170f.90583@gmail.com>,
Arlowe <bare.arsed@gmail.com> wrote:
I don't test for live circuits with a DMM.
I use test lamps or a low(er) impedance voltmeter.
If you worked for me I would sack your arse if I caught you using a DMM
to test for live.
Nice to know someone round here knows what they are doing!
Both of you are idiotic to think that there is some inherent error or
danger in using a DMM to observe an AC line.
I doubt that.On Fri, 23 Jan 2009 00:30:44 +1100, Arlowe <bare.arsed@gmail.com> wrote:
It happens that krw formulated :
In article <mn.b4a77d91b151170f.90583@gmail.com>,
bare.arsed@gmail.com says...
krw explained on 21/01/2009 :
On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 22:05:27 -0300, YD <ydtechHAT@techie.com> wrote:
Late at night, by candle light, Arlowe <bare.arsed@gmail.com> penned
this immortal opus:
krw used his keyboard to write :
In article <mn.a5307d9188b78d0d.90583@gmail.com>,
bare.arsed@gmail.com says...
krw explained on 19/01/2009 :
On Sun, 18 Jan 2009 19:35:00 +1100, Arlowe <bare.arsed@gmail.com
wrote:
on 16/01/2009, Paul supposed :
On Jan 15, 2:19 pm, "David L. Jones" <altz...@gmail.com> wrote:
"Paul" <energymo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:54c2d7cf-c506-4647-b272-17d608c8854a@x8g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
I'm testing a new DMM I purchased, AM-240 by Amprobe. It claims
*over* 100Mohm impedance in 400.0mV mode.
Nothing new there, many DMM's have selectable "high impedance" or
"HI-Z" modes on the mV range. e.g. the Fluke 87.
I've looked at the specs of ~ 30 DMM's today, include a lot of
fluke's, and never seen anything near 14Gohms impedance. Keithley
has an electrometer that's probably higher. Most DMM's are around
10Mohms (not gigaohms) input impedance. Don't you think 14
gigaohms is a bit high?
PL
The evil thing about Voltmeters with very high impedance is they
will read induced voltages that analog meters wouldn't.
It makes a voltmeter useless for checking for live circuits in a
crowded panel.
A craftsman never blames tools for his failures. Hackers, on the
other hand...
If you work with electricity you had better know the limitations of
your tools or you will find them...the hard way.
That is certainly true (though perhaps your heirs are the ones who
will find you), but doesn't modify my statement. In this case, the
tool *can* be used as long as the one using it knows what he's
doing.
Ok....everything seems to pass right over your head....
I pointed out a limitation of a DMM and you seem to be inferring that I
am somehow a hack who blames his tools...
BTW> I am not a "craftsman" I am an electrcian..
You don't do what I do for as many years as I have without knowing what
the fuck you are doing.
What's wrong with using a hi Z voltmeter in a live panel? I do it more
often than I really care for, and never have a problem.
There isn't anything wrong with it. Analog meters are dead. High
impedance digital meters are only a problem if there is a loose nut
inside the panel, holding the leads.
I don't test for live circuits with a DMM.
I use test lamps or a low(er) impedance voltmeter.
SO there *is* something wrong with a digital meter. I thought you
sparkys were just telling me that the display type didn't matter.
If you worked for me I would sack your arse if I caught you using a DMM
to test for live.
You couldn't afford me. I understand electricity.
bullshit.
you are just another wannabe...
He was in electronics before you were a twitch between your daddy's
legs.
Don't.Archimedes' Lever expressed precisely :
On Fri, 23 Jan 2009 00:30:44 +1100, Arlowe <bare.arsed@gmail.com> wrote:
It happens that krw formulated :
In article <mn.b4a77d91b151170f.90583@gmail.com>,
bare.arsed@gmail.com says...
krw explained on 21/01/2009 :
On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 22:05:27 -0300, YD <ydtechHAT@techie.com> wrote:
Late at night, by candle light, Arlowe <bare.arsed@gmail.com> penned
this immortal opus:
krw used his keyboard to write :
In article <mn.a5307d9188b78d0d.90583@gmail.com>,
bare.arsed@gmail.com says...
krw explained on 19/01/2009 :
On Sun, 18 Jan 2009 19:35:00 +1100, Arlowe <bare.arsed@gmail.com
wrote:
on 16/01/2009, Paul supposed :
On Jan 15, 2:19 pm, "David L. Jones" <altz...@gmail.com> wrote:
"Paul" <energymo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:54c2d7cf-c506-4647-b272-17d608c8854a@x8g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
I'm testing a new DMM I purchased, AM-240 by Amprobe. It claims
*over* 100Mohm impedance in 400.0mV mode.
Nothing new there, many DMM's have selectable "high impedance" or
"HI-Z" modes on the mV range. e.g. the Fluke 87.
I've looked at the specs of ~ 30 DMM's today, include a lot of
fluke's, and never seen anything near 14Gohms impedance. Keithley
has an electrometer that's probably higher. Most DMM's are around
10Mohms (not gigaohms) input impedance. Don't you think 14
gigaohms is a bit high?
PL
The evil thing about Voltmeters with very high impedance is they
will read induced voltages that analog meters wouldn't.
It makes a voltmeter useless for checking for live circuits in a
crowded panel.
A craftsman never blames tools for his failures. Hackers, on the
other hand...
If you work with electricity you had better know the limitations of
your tools or you will find them...the hard way.
That is certainly true (though perhaps your heirs are the ones who
will find you), but doesn't modify my statement. In this case, the
tool *can* be used as long as the one using it knows what he's
doing.
Ok....everything seems to pass right over your head....
I pointed out a limitation of a DMM and you seem to be inferring that I
am somehow a hack who blames his tools...
BTW> I am not a "craftsman" I am an electrcian..
You don't do what I do for as many years as I have without knowing what
the fuck you are doing.
What's wrong with using a hi Z voltmeter in a live panel? I do it more
often than I really care for, and never have a problem.
There isn't anything wrong with it. Analog meters are dead. High
impedance digital meters are only a problem if there is a loose nut
inside the panel, holding the leads.
I don't test for live circuits with a DMM.
I use test lamps or a low(er) impedance voltmeter.
SO there *is* something wrong with a digital meter. I thought you
sparkys were just telling me that the display type didn't matter.
If you worked for me I would sack your arse if I caught you using a DMM
to test for live.
You couldn't afford me. I understand electricity.
bullshit.
you are just another wannabe...
He was in electronics before you were a twitch between your daddy's
legs.
I doubt that.
"High energy". Wow! Out come the big words.He knows nothing about working with high energy ciruits, that is for
sure.
Perhaps, but not an ignorant arrogant prick like you. At least I knowAnd he is an arrogant prick to boot.
Hardly, sparky.krw formulated on Friday :
In article <mn.b8627d9173a3a4d8.90583@gmail.com>,
bare.arsed@gmail.com says...
It happens that krw formulated :
In article <mn.b84c7d914fa4be4b.90583@gmail.com>,
bare.arsed@gmail.com says...
krw laid this down on his screen :
In article <mn.b81e7d91ce4eaf86.90583@gmail.com>,
bare.arsed@gmail.com says...
It happens that krw formulated :
In article <mn.b4a77d91b151170f.90583@gmail.com>,
bare.arsed@gmail.com says...
krw explained on 21/01/2009 :
On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 22:05:27 -0300, YD <ydtechHAT@techie.com> wrote:
Late at night, by candle light, Arlowe <bare.arsed@gmail.com> penned
this immortal opus:
krw used his keyboard to write :
In article <mn.a5307d9188b78d0d.90583@gmail.com>,
bare.arsed@gmail.com says...
krw explained on 19/01/2009 :
On Sun, 18 Jan 2009 19:35:00 +1100, Arlowe
bare.arsed@gmail.com> wrote:
on 16/01/2009, Paul supposed :
On Jan 15, 2:19 pm, "David L. Jones" <altz...@gmail.com
wrote:
"Paul" <energymo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:54c2d7cf-c506-4647-b272-17d608c8854a@x8g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
I'm testing a new DMM I purchased, AM-240 by Amprobe. It
claims *over* 100Mohm impedance in 400.0mV mode.
Nothing new there, many DMM's have selectable "high
impedance" or "HI-Z" modes on the mV range. e.g. the Fluke
87.
I've looked at the specs of ~ 30 DMM's today, include a lot of
fluke's, and never seen anything near 14Gohms impedance.
Keithley has an electrometer that's probably higher. Most
DMM's are around 10Mohms (not gigaohms) input impedance.
Don't you think 14 gigaohms is a bit high?
PL
The evil thing about Voltmeters with very high impedance is
they will read induced voltages that analog meters wouldn't.
It makes a voltmeter useless for checking for live circuits in
a crowded panel.
A craftsman never blames tools for his failures. Hackers, on
the other hand...
If you work with electricity you had better know the limitations
of your tools or you will find them...the hard way.
That is certainly true (though perhaps your heirs are the ones who
will find you), but doesn't modify my statement. In this case,
the tool *can* be used as long as the one using it knows what
he's doing.
Ok....everything seems to pass right over your head....
I pointed out a limitation of a DMM and you seem to be inferring
that I am somehow a hack who blames his tools...
BTW> I am not a "craftsman" I am an electrcian..
You don't do what I do for as many years as I have without knowing
what the fuck you are doing.
What's wrong with using a hi Z voltmeter in a live panel? I do it
more often than I really care for, and never have a problem.
There isn't anything wrong with it. Analog meters are dead. High
impedance digital meters are only a problem if there is a loose nut
inside the panel, holding the leads.
I don't test for live circuits with a DMM.
I use test lamps or a low(er) impedance voltmeter.
SO there *is* something wrong with a digital meter. I thought you
sparkys were just telling me that the display type didn't matter.
If you worked for me I would sack your arse if I caught you using a
DMM to test for live.
You couldn't afford me. I understand electricity.
bullshit.
you are just another wannabe...
Heavens no! I have no interest in becoming a sparky. Crappy work,
low pay, and no fun.
Only for cable monkeys.
Find the right niche and you can name your price.
So even in a perfect niche it's still crappy work and no fun, but
pays well (doubt it). Even your perfect niche is two huge steps
down. No thanks.
So you know nothing about working in the field...
I know enough to have a better life.
Just goes to show you know nothing about the field.
You have demonstrated you total lack of knowledge here repeatedly.and you accuse me of
not knowing how to use my tools?
No, I accuse you of not understanding electricity.
Well, I am accusing you of the same.
Arlowe wrote:
krw used his keyboard to write :
In article <2933ea53-af2a-43a8-86c7-d9e2ec400d99@
35g2000pry.googlegroups.com>, altz...@gmail.com says...
On Jan 21, 10:40 pm, krw <k...@att.zzzzzzzzz> wrote:
In article <9caaa5aa-54e2-4f21-a324-1f2ca8bdd389
@n33g2000pri.googlegroups.com>, altz...@gmail.com says...
On Jan 21, 2:09 pm, krw <k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:
On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 19:06:15 -0800 (PST), "David L. Jones"
altz...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jan 21, 12:22 pm, krw <k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:
On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 22:05:27 -0300, YD <ydtech...@techie.com> wrote:
Late at night, by candle light, Arlowe <bare.ar...@gmail.com> penned
this immortal opus:
krw used his keyboard to write :
In article <mn.a5307d9188b78d0d.90...@gmail.com>,
bare.ar...@gmail.com says...
krw explained on 19/01/2009 :
On Sun, 18 Jan 2009 19:35:00 +1100, Arlowe <bare.ar...@gmail.com
wrote:
on 16/01/2009, Paul supposed :
On Jan 15, 2:19 pm, "David L. Jones" <altz...@gmail.com> wrote:
"Paul" <energymo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:54c2d7cf-c506-4647-b272-17d608c8854a@x8g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
I'm testing a new DMM I purchased, AM-240 by Amprobe. It
claims *over* 100Mohm impedance in 400.0mV mode.
Nothing new there, many DMM's have selectable "high impedance"
or "HI-Z" modes on the mV range. e.g. the Fluke 87.
I've looked at the specs of ~ 30 DMM's today, include a lot of
fluke's, and never seen anything near 14Gohms impedance.
Keithley has an electrometer that's probably higher. Most DMM's
are around 10Mohms (not gigaohms) input impedance. Don't you
think 14 gigaohms is a bit high?
PL
The evil thing about Voltmeters with very high impedance is they
will read induced voltages that analog meters wouldn't.
It makes a voltmeter useless for checking for live circuits in a
crowded panel.
A craftsman never blames tools for his failures. Hackers, on the
other hand...
If you work with electricity you had better know the limitations of
your tools or you will find them...the hard way.
That is certainly true (though perhaps your heirs are the ones who
will find you), but doesn't modify my statement. In this case, the
tool *can* be used as long as the one using it knows what he's
doing.
Ok....everything seems to pass right over your head....
I pointed out a limitation of a DMM and you seem to be inferring that
I am somehow a hack who blames his tools...
BTW> I am not a "craftsman" I am an electrcian..
You don't do what I do for as many years as I have without knowing
what the fuck you are doing.
What's wrong with using a hi Z voltmeter in a live panel? I do it more
often than I really care for, and never have a problem.
There isn't anything wrong with it. Analog meters are dead. High
impedance digital meters are only a problem if there is a loose nut
inside the panel, holding the leads.
Then I suppose Fluke and others make all those purpose designed Low-Z
electrical meters for loose nuts then?
...and electricians who know nothing about electricity, perhaps.
But at least smart enough to chose the right tool for the job.
For an electrician who know nothing about electricity (99.44% of
them, apparently), or if that's all one is ever going to do with
the meter, perhaps.
Yes, electricians generally just do just the one similar job. That's
why they make meters designed for just such specific purposes.
Giving your average electrician say a Fluke 289 is a bit overkill and
would likely not be as productive as a more job specific instrument.
That wasn't at issue here. The statement was made that a high
impedance meter couldn't be used and that a low impedance *ANALOG*
meter was a necessity. It's certainly not true, though one has to
understand what one is doing, again a rarity in this group.
I didn't say you had to use an analog meter.
I said that they do not have the same problem. An analog meter "IS A
LOAD" aDMM is NOT.
Really? They both use resistive divider networks across the DUT.
Posted through googlegroups (yech) because my news source apparentlyaioe.org, Goggle Groups, and Web TV users must request to be white
listed, or I will not see your messages.
The issue is his (and others') insistence that a high impedanceOn Jan 22, 2:58 pm, "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terr...@earthlink.net
wrote:
Arlowe wrote:
krw used his keyboard to write :
In article <2933ea53-af2a-43a8-86c7-d9e2ec400d99@
35g2000pry.googlegroups.com>, altz...@gmail.com says...
On Jan 21, 10:40 pm, krw <k...@att.zzzzzzzzz> wrote:
In article <9caaa5aa-54e2-4f21-a324-1f2ca8bdd389
@n33g2000pri.googlegroups.com>, altz...@gmail.com says...
On Jan 21, 2:09 pm, krw <k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:
On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 19:06:15 -0800 (PST), "David L. Jones"
altz...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jan 21, 12:22 pm, krw <k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:
On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 22:05:27 -0300, YD <ydtech...@techie.com> wrote:
Late at night, by candle light, Arlowe <bare.ar...@gmail.com> penned
this immortal opus:
krw used his keyboard to write :
In article <mn.a5307d9188b78d0d.90...@gmail.com>,
bare.ar...@gmail.com says...
krw explained on 19/01/2009 :
On Sun, 18 Jan 2009 19:35:00 +1100, Arlowe <bare.ar...@gmail.com
wrote:
on 16/01/2009, Paul supposed :
On Jan 15, 2:19 pm, "David L. Jones" <altz...@gmail.com> wrote:
"Paul" <energymo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:54c2d7cf-c506-4647-b272-17d608c8854a@x8g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
I'm testing a new DMM I purchased, AM-240 by Amprobe. It
claims *over* 100Mohm impedance in 400.0mV mode.
Nothing new there, many DMM's have selectable "high impedance"
or "HI-Z" modes on the mV range. e.g. the Fluke 87.
I've looked at the specs of ~ 30 DMM's today, include a lot of
fluke's, and never seen anything near 14Gohms impedance.
Keithley has an electrometer that's probably higher. Most DMM's
are around 10Mohms (not gigaohms) input impedance. Don't you
think 14 gigaohms is a bit high?
PL
The evil thing about Voltmeters with very high impedance is they
will read induced voltages that analog meters wouldn't.
It makes a voltmeter useless for checking for live circuits in a
crowded panel.
A craftsman never blames tools for his failures. Hackers, on the
other hand...
If you work with electricity you had better know the limitations of
your tools or you will find them...the hard way.
That is certainly true (though perhaps your heirs are the ones who
will find you), but doesn't modify my statement. In this case, the
tool *can* be used as long as the one using it knows what he's
doing.
Ok....everything seems to pass right over your head....
I pointed out a limitation of a DMM and you seem to be inferring that
I am somehow a hack who blames his tools...
BTW> I am not a "craftsman" I am an electrcian..
You don't do what I do for as many years as I have without knowing
what the fuck you are doing.
What's wrong with using a hi Z voltmeter in a live panel? I do it more
often than I really care for, and never have a problem.
There isn't anything wrong with it. Analog meters are dead. High
impedance digital meters are only a problem if there is a loose nut
inside the panel, holding the leads.
Then I suppose Fluke and others make all those purpose designed Low-Z
electrical meters for loose nuts then?
...and electricians who know nothing about electricity, perhaps.
But at least smart enough to chose the right tool for the job.
For an electrician who know nothing about electricity (99.44% of
them, apparently), or if that's all one is ever going to do with
the meter, perhaps.
Yes, electricians generally just do just the one similar job. That's
why they make meters designed for just such specific purposes.
Giving your average electrician say a Fluke 289 is a bit overkill and
would likely not be as productive as a more job specific instrument.
That wasn't at issue here. The statement was made that a high
impedance meter couldn't be used and that a low impedance *ANALOG*
meter was a necessity. It's certainly not true, though one has to
understand what one is doing, again a rarity in this group.
I didn't say you had to use an analog meter.
I said that they do not have the same problem. An analog meter "IS A
LOAD" aDMM is NOT.
Really? They both use resistive divider networks across the DUT.
I really don't understand the resistance (if you will excuse the
expression) to Arloe.
Of course both analog and digital meters (excluding, for practical
purposes, the original topic) have resistive input. For the purposes
Arloe uses a meter, the intentionally high impedance of most digital
meters is a liability. The lower impedance of an analog meter, and
some digital meters, is an advantage.
Of course, "analog" has nothing to do with it (as some havealt.home.repair gets more electric power questions than this
newsgroup, with the OP usually less technical savvy (some at a.e.e
that aren't either). It is rather common for someone to ask why there
is 83 volts on a wire that should be dead. The common response is it
is a "phantom voltage" picked up by using a high impedance digital
meter and to use an analog meter (or light bulb).
As Arloe said "An analog meter 'IS A LOAD' a DMM is NOT."
No, he's saying that that is the only tool possible. The fact isArloe is just saying to use the appropriate tool.
That isn't the issue, and you know it.In addition, he can't kludge a lower impedance onto a high impedance
meter. He may meter power circuits that have an available fault
current of tens of thousands of amps. In the US you may need to wear a
"flash suit" to merely meter the voltage. The meter must be designed
to safely fail on those circuits.
Perhaps "professional" experience, but limited knowledge.Same applies to responses to Stewart, who is speaking from
professional experience.
Get a new one. They're cheap.aioe.org, Goggle Groups, and Web TV users must request to be white
listed, or I will not see your messages.
Posted through googlegroups (yech) because my news source apparently
doesn't like cross posting.
The meter must be designed
to safely fail on those circuits.
High impedance DMMs "safely fail" on ALL equipment as well.
Arloe understands that it can and understands what one is readingIn article <fe2bb820-867e-48c1-add6-7ba1757c7ff1
@v5g2000prm.googlegroups.com>, budn...@isp.com says...
On Jan 22, 2:58 pm, "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terr...@earthlink.net
wrote:
Arlowe wrote:
I didn't say you had to use an analog meter.
I said that they do not have the same problem. An analog meter "IS A
LOAD" aDMM is NOT.
Really? They both use resistive divider networks across the DUT.
I really don't understand the resistance (if you will excuse the
expression) to Arloe.
Of course both analog and digital meters (excluding, for practical
purposes, the original topic) have resistive input. For the purposes
Arloe uses a meter, the intentionally high impedance of most digital
meters is a liability. The lower impedance of an analog meter, and
some digital meters, is an advantage.
The issue is his (and others') insistence that a high impedance
meter (and indeed even a digital meter) cannot be used in these
circumstances. The fact is that it can, though one has to
understand that what one is reading may not be correct.
Arloe does understand. That is why he uses an appropriate tool.These
errors are easily prevented/corrected, something the sparkys simply
cannot understand.
The term analog is used because (without an amplifier) they arealt.home.repair gets more electric power questions than this
newsgroup, with the OP usually less technical savvy (some at a.e.e
that aren't either). It is rather common for someone to ask why there
is 83 volts on a wire that should be dead. The common response is it
is a "phantom voltage" picked up by using a high impedance digital
meter and to use an analog meter (or light bulb).
As Arloe said "An analog meter 'IS A LOAD' aDMM is NOT."
Of course, "analog" has nothing to do with it (as some have
claimed). How does he know that even the analog meter isn't lying
to him for similar reasons?
Arloe does understand the tools. That is why he wants to use a lowerThe fact is that one has to understand
the tools and work with them.
How do you easily provide a load if you are measuring power circuitsA "load" is easy.
Of course. If you have a high impedance circuit you use a highPreventing a low
impedance meter from loading a circuit is difficult.
He is saying that a low impedance meter is the appropriate tool forArloe is just saying to use the appropriate tool.
No, he's saying that that is the only tool possible.
Arloe measures 83 volts with a high impedance meter. What does thatThe fact is
that a high impedance meter *can* be used, though one has to be
careful. Something evidently beyond the average sparky.
May or may not be. You havent explained how you work with a highIn addition, he can't kludge a lower impedance onto a high impedance
meter. He may meter power circuits that have an available fault
current of tens of thousands of amps. In the US you may need to wear a
"flash suit" to merely meter the voltage. The meter must be designed
to safely fail on those circuits.
That isn't the issue, and you know it.
Your Ouija board is very accurate and, of course, is the appropriateSame applies to responses to Stewart, who is speaking from
professional experience.
Perhaps "professional" experience, but limited knowledge.
Only if they are designed for high energy circuits.On Fri, 23 Jan 2009 11:28:44 -0800 (PST), bud-- <budn...@isp.com> wrote:
The meter must be designed
to safely fail on those circuits.
High impedance DMMs "safely fail" on ALL equipment as well.
It matters greatly that there is high current capacity available.And no, it matters not that there is a high current capacity available.
Of course. But a competent person working high energy circuits willIf the operator does not know how to take measurements in such
environments, he should not even be in such an environment, much less be
there attempting to take readings from power equipment. With ANY meter.
It *is* a phantom voltage. It's not so much that measurement isOn Jan 23, 2:31 pm, krw <k...@att.zzzzzzzzz> wrote:
In article <fe2bb820-867e-48c1-add6-7ba1757c7ff1
@v5g2000prm.googlegroups.com>, budn...@isp.com says...
On Jan 22, 2:58 pm, "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terr...@earthlink.net
wrote:
Arlowe wrote:
I didn't say you had to use an analog meter.
I said that they do not have the same problem. An analog meter "IS A
LOAD" aDMM is NOT.
Really? They both use resistive divider networks across the DUT.
I really don't understand the resistance (if you will excuse the
expression) to Arloe.
Of course both analog and digital meters (excluding, for practical
purposes, the original topic) have resistive input. For the purposes
Arloe uses a meter, the intentionally high impedance of most digital
meters is a liability. The lower impedance of an analog meter, and
some digital meters, is an advantage.
The issue is his (and others') insistence that a high impedance
meter (and indeed even a digital meter) cannot be used in these
circumstances. The fact is that it can, though one has to
understand that what one is reading may not be correct.
Arloe understands that it can and understands what one is reading
may not be correct.
Arloe understands that if he reads 83 volts with a high impedance
meter he doesnt know if the voltage is real or phantom. So how is
the measurement useful?
No, apparently they're too dumb to use the instruments correctly andMaybe electricians are too fussy about knowing whether the circuits
the work on are live?
No, he doesn't understand. His "low" impedance meter isn't all thatThese
errors are easily prevented/corrected, something the sparkys simply
cannot understand.
Arloe does understand. That is why he uses an appropriate tool.
And I am a licensed master electrician. I guess I must not understand
either.
That it most likely ain't 83V.A high impedance meter reads 83 volts.
What do you know?
A number of things. Mainly, no matter what the meter, not to trustHow do you prevent?
Load the circuit. Turn on a light bulb. Use a resistor. Any numberHow do you correct?
They can still be thousands of ohms per volt.alt.home.repair gets more electric power questions than this
newsgroup, with the OP usually less technical savvy (some at a.e.e
that aren't either). It is rather common for someone to ask why there
is 83 volts on a wire that should be dead. The common response is it
is a "phantom voltage" picked up by using a high impedance digital
meter and to use an analog meter (or light bulb).
As Arloe said "An analog meter 'IS A LOAD' aDMM is NOT."
Of course, "analog" has nothing to do with it (as some have
claimed). How does he know that even the analog meter isn't lying
to him for similar reasons?
The term analog is used because (without an amplifier) they are
inherently low impedance in the context of the measurements Arloe is
making. (With a good 50 microamp movement you might still see some
phantom voltage. AC ranges are likely way under 20k ohms/volt.)
No, he's been told what tools to use. He understands nothing. A highThe fact is that one has to understand
the tools and work with them.
Arloe does understand the tools. That is why he wants to use a lower
impedance meter on power circuits.
I told you, several times. I can't help it of you're in Arloe'sNot explained - how do you work with a high impedance meter?
What is the work with procedure if you measure 83 volts?
Maybe a light will come on.A "load" is easy.
How do you easily provide a load if you are measuring power circuits
with a high impedance meter?
No, *understand* your tool *AND* your business.Preventing a low
impedance meter from loading a circuit is difficult.
Of course. If you have a high impedance circuit you use a high
impedance meter. Use the appropriate tool.
They certainly are, if not connected.Power circuits are not high impedance.
No, that's not what he's saying. You're coming in in the middle here.Arloe is just saying to use the appropriate tool.
No, he's saying that that is the only tool possible.
He is saying that a low impedance meter is the appropriate tool for
the measurements he is making.
How many times are you going to ask this silly question?The fact is
that a high impedance meter *can* be used, though one has to be
careful. Something evidently beyond the average sparky.
Arloe measures 83 volts with a high impedance meter. What does that
tell him?
I have many times. I can't help it if you, like Arloe, are too dumbIn addition, he can't kludge a lower impedance onto a high impedance
meter. He may meter power circuits that have an available fault
current of tens of thousands of amps. In the US you may need to wear a
"flash suit" to merely meter the voltage. The meter must be designed
to safely fail on those circuits.
That isn't the issue, and you know it.
May or may not be. You havent explained how you work with a high
impedance meter.
What is the work with procedure if you measure 83 volts?
No, it's what sparkys use, apparently.Same applies to responses to Stewart, who is speaking from
professional experience.
Perhaps "professional" experience, but limited knowledge.
Your Ouija board is very accurate and, of course, is the appropriate
tool.
Is it high impedance?
You are wasting you time with this idiot.On Jan 23, 2:31 pm, krw <k...@att.zzzzzzzzz> wrote:
In article <fe2bb820-867e-48c1-add6-7ba1757c7ff1
@v5g2000prm.googlegroups.com>, budn...@isp.com says...
On Jan 22, 2:58 pm, "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terr...@earthlink.net
wrote:
Arlowe wrote:
I didn't say you had to use an analog meter.
I said that they do not have the same problem. An analog meter "IS A
LOAD" aDMM is NOT.
Really? They both use resistive divider networks across the DUT.
I really don't understand the resistance (if you will excuse the
expression) to Arloe.
Of course both analog and digital meters (excluding, for practical
purposes, the original topic) have resistive input. For the purposes
Arloe uses a meter, the intentionally high impedance of most digital
meters is a liability. The lower impedance of an analog meter, and
some digital meters, is an advantage.
The issue is his (and others') insistence that a high impedance
meter (and indeed even a digital meter) cannot be used in these
circumstances. The fact is that it can, though one has to
understand that what one is reading may not be correct.
Arloe understands âthat it canâ and âunderstands what one is reading
may not be correctâ.
Arloe understands that if he reads 83 volts with a high impedance
meter he doesnât know if the voltage is real or âphantomâ. So how is
the measurement useful?
Maybe electricians are too fussy about knowing whether the circuits
the work on are live?
These
errors are easily prevented/corrected, something the sparkys simply
cannot understand.
Arloe does understand. That is why he uses an appropriate tool.
And I am a licensed master electrician. I guess I must not understand
either.
A high impedance meter reads 83 volts.
What do you know?
How do you prevent?
How do you correct?
alt.home.repair gets more electric power questions than this
newsgroup, with the OP usually less technical savvy (some at a.e.e
that aren't either). It is rather common for someone to ask why there
is 83 volts on a wire that should be dead. The common response is it
is a "phantom voltage" picked up by using a high impedance digital
meter and to use an analog meter (or light bulb).
As Arloe said "An analog meter 'IS A LOAD' aDMM is NOT."
Of course, "analog" has nothing to do with it (as some have
claimed). How does he know that even the analog meter isn't lying
to him for similar reasons?
The term âanalogâ is used because (without an amplifier) they are
inherently low impedance in the context of the measurements Arloe is
making. (With a good 50 microamp movement you might still see some
phantom voltage. AC ranges are likely way under 20k ohms/volt.)
The fact is that one has to understand
the tools and work with them.
Arloe does understand the tools. That is why he wants to use a lower
impedance meter on power circuits.
Not explained - how do you âwork withâ a high impedance meter?
What is the âwork withâ procedure if you measure 83 volts?
A "load" is easy.
How do you âeasilyâ provide a load if you are measuring power circuits
with a high impedance meter?
Preventing a low
impedance meter from loading a circuit is difficult.
Of course. If you have a high impedance circuit you use a high
impedance meter. Use the appropriate tool.
Power circuits are not high impedance.
Arloe is just saying to use the appropriate tool.
No, he's saying that that is the only tool possible.
He is saying that a low impedance meter is the appropriate tool for
the measurements he is making.
The fact is
that a high impedance meter *can* be used, though one has to be
careful. Something evidently beyond the average sparky.
Arloe measures 83 volts with a high impedance meter. What does that
tell him?
In addition, he can't kludge a lower impedance onto a high impedance
meter. He may meter power circuits that have an available fault
current of tens of thousands of amps. In the US you may need to wear a
"flash suit" to merely meter the voltage. The meter must be designed
to safely fail on those circuits.
That isn't the issue, and you know it.
May or may not be. You havenât explained how you âwork withâ a high
impedance meter.
What is the âwork withâ procedure if you measure 83 volts?
Same applies to responses to Stewart, who is speaking from
professional experience.
Perhaps "professional" experience, but limited knowledge.
Your Ouija board is very accurate and, of course, is the appropriate
tool.
Is it high impedance?
It matters greatly that there is high current capacity available.
And if you don't use the appropriate tool you could wind up wearing
the meter. You could also wind up wearing the equipment you are
metering.
The term analog is used because (without an amplifier) they are
inherently low impedance in the context of the measurements Arloe is
making. (With a good 50 microamp movement you might still see some
phantom voltage. AC ranges are likely way under 20k ohms/volt.)
They can still be thousands of ohms per volt.
bud-- was thinking very hard :
On Jan 23, 2:31 pm, krw <k...@att.zzzzzzzzz> wrote:
In article <fe2bb820-867e-48c1-add6-7ba1757c7ff1
@v5g2000prm.googlegroups.com>, budn...@isp.com says...
On Jan 22, 2:58 pm, "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terr...@earthlink.net
wrote:
Arlowe wrote:
I didn't say you had to use an analog meter.
I said that they do not have the same problem. An analog meter "IS A
LOAD" aDMM is NOT.
Really? They both use resistive divider networks across the DUT.
I really don't understand the resistance (if you will excuse the
expression) to Arloe.
Of course both analog and digital meters (excluding, for practical
purposes, the original topic) have resistive input. For the purposes
Arloe uses a meter, the intentionally high impedance of most digital
meters is a liability. The lower impedance of an analog meter, and
some digital meters, is an advantage.
The issue is his (and others') insistence that a high impedance
meter (and indeed even a digital meter) cannot be used in these
circumstances. The fact is that it can, though one has to
understand that what one is reading may not be correct.
Arloe understands that it can and understands what one is reading
may not be correct.
Arloe understands that if he reads 83 volts with a high impedance
meter he doesnt know if the voltage is real or phantom. So how is
the measurement useful?
Maybe electricians are too fussy about knowing whether the circuits
the work on are live?
These
errors are easily prevented/corrected, something the sparkys simply
cannot understand.
Arloe does understand. That is why he uses an appropriate tool.
And I am a licensed master electrician. I guess I must not understand
either.
A high impedance meter reads 83 volts.
What do you know?
How do you prevent?
How do you correct?
alt.home.repair gets more electric power questions than this
newsgroup, with the OP usually less technical savvy (some at a.e.e
that aren't either). It is rather common for someone to ask why there
is 83 volts on a wire that should be dead. The common response is it
is a "phantom voltage" picked up by using a high impedance digital
meter and to use an analog meter (or light bulb).
As Arloe said "An analog meter 'IS A LOAD' aDMM is NOT."
Of course, "analog" has nothing to do with it (as some have
claimed). How does he know that even the analog meter isn't lying
to him for similar reasons?
The term analog is used because (without an amplifier) they are
inherently low impedance in the context of the measurements Arloe is
making. (With a good 50 microamp movement you might still see some
phantom voltage. AC ranges are likely way under 20k ohms/volt.)
The fact is that one has to understand
the tools and work with them.
Arloe does understand the tools. That is why he wants to use a lower
impedance meter on power circuits.
Not explained - how do you work with a high impedance meter?
What is the work with procedure if you measure 83 volts?
A "load" is easy.
How do you easily provide a load if you are measuring power circuits
with a high impedance meter?
Preventing a low
impedance meter from loading a circuit is difficult.
Of course. If you have a high impedance circuit you use a high
impedance meter. Use the appropriate tool.
Power circuits are not high impedance.
Arloe is just saying to use the appropriate tool.
No, he's saying that that is the only tool possible.
He is saying that a low impedance meter is the appropriate tool for
the measurements he is making.
The fact is
that a high impedance meter *can* be used, though one has to be
careful. Something evidently beyond the average sparky.
Arloe measures 83 volts with a high impedance meter. What does that
tell him?
In addition, he can't kludge a lower impedance onto a high impedance
meter. He may meter power circuits that have an available fault
current of tens of thousands of amps. In the US you may need to wear a
"flash suit" to merely meter the voltage. The meter must be designed
to safely fail on those circuits.
That isn't the issue, and you know it.
May or may not be. You havent explained how you work with a high
impedance meter.
What is the work with procedure if you measure 83 volts?
Same applies to responses to Stewart, who is speaking from
professional experience.
Perhaps "professional" experience, but limited knowledge.
Your Ouija board is very accurate and, of course, is the appropriate
tool.
Is it high impedance?
You are wasting you time with this idiot.
Well then take your stupid ass somewhere else, 'this idiot'.