EV Charging in the UK

[Bill Sloman]

On Sunday, June 16, 2019 at 7:21:51 AM UTC+2, John Larkin wrote:

On Sat, 15 Jun 2019 20:12:30 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

On 6/15/19 6:19 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 15 Jun 2019 17:29:59 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

On 6/15/19 4:05 PM, Rick C wrote:

<snip>

The average round-trip work car commute in the UK is less than 20 miles
(thru god-awful traffic.) Even 2kW overnight charge is enough for that

If you only drive a few miles a day in a regular car, you won't use
much gasoline so you won't Destroy The Planet.

Dumping more CO2 into the atmosphere than you need to won't "Destroy the Planet" but it will make it less suitable for human habitation.

There are activities that dump CO2 into the atmopshere that are harder to get rid of than driving around in a gasoline-powered car, so getting rid of regular cars is a fairly high priority.

John Larkin's enthusiasm for "destroying the planet" is "catastrophism" which is one more of his intellectual errors.

You can spend 5
minutes, every few weeks, filling up. That's just about the right
amount of time to squeegie the windows.

If you drive long distances, charging an electric car becomes a
nuisance.

So does filling up a gasoline-powered car.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Rick C]

On Monday, June 17, 2019 at 5:23:13 AM UTC-4, piglet wrote:

On 16/06/2019 9:50 pm, Rick C wrote:
... Even though the car is essentially a double insulated thing, the ground pin on the connector may well be connected to the chassis making it hot! ...


I don't think that is correct. If the car is "double insulated" then
almost by definition that means the chassis will *not* be connected to a
ground pin?

To qualify as "double insulated" devices are not allowed a ground connection - no ground pin at all. I was not talking about that. I'm simply referring to the rest of the double insulated standard that requires there be no single fault that can cause exterior metal to be in contact with the power wiring. EVs are designed this way because they have very high voltages internally even when not connected to the mains.

--

Rick C.

++++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Rick C]

On Monday, June 17, 2019 at 5:53:03 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:

On 16/06/2019 20:01, Rick C wrote:
On Sunday, June 16, 2019 at 10:34:42 AM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 16/06/19 09:53, Rick C wrote:
On Sunday, June 16, 2019 at 4:18:06 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown
wrote:
On 15/06/2019 21:05, Rick C wrote:
I'm being told EV charging will be a lot more difficult in
the UK than it is here in the US.

I looked at the typical daily cycle and they have some 10 to
20 GW between the peak and minimum each day with resonably
flat consumption in the trough. That will allow off peak
charging of a third of the 30 million vehicles for 50 miles.

The problem is that charging parked cars during the day will
coincide with peak industrial demand and supply is already so
tight during winter that they have had to pay major industrial
users to drop off to avoid rolling blackouts. Prevarication
over new nuclear build hasn't helped.

What will allow charging during the day is increased electric
production from renewable sources. Solar is getting cheap enough
that it is profitable to install it on a mass scale... although
may not so much in the UK which is more northern than anyplace in
our lower 48. But it won't be long before that is true in the UK
as well. Please don't go off about cloudy days and such since
EVs don't need charging every day for most people and solar
still produces reduced amounts of energy even on cloudy days.

Cloudy days are a noticeable problem.

Short days are even more of a problem.

Are you saying there won't be viable solar generation in the UK?

Only with subsidies. In midsummer you get plenty of power during long
days but in mid winter you only get 4 hours of sunshine on a good day
and the sun manages a peak altitude of 15 degrees at London and 6 less
at Edinburgh. Solar powered "Please go round the dangerous bend" signs
in the UK are typically dead two hours after sunset in mid winter.

The info I find is 7 hrs 13 mins daylight in Aspatria on the shortest day of the year. Not sure what you are talking about with 4 hours. Even Edinburgh gets 6 hrs 58 mins.

On a frosty winters morning they are worse than useless.

Your comments are a bit like Larkin's and Trump's, saying something
without saying anything.

UK latitude is too high for solar PV to make any sense beyond harvesting
the government renewable energy investment grants. Wind power is a
somewhat better proposition but not always available. The killer is that
their output scales as the cube of the windspeed and the coldest winter
days are very often flat calm.

So some charging will be supportable in the day time with out
impact. Just give it a few more years. From what I'm hearing
EVs aren't very popular in the UK for now anyway.


Charging overnight would work but then the generating capacity
would have to run flat out on a continuous basis.

And that is a good thing. The UK has gotten themselves in a bind
by not expanding their capacity enough.

Yup. We have <5% excess generating capacity, so if two major plants
go offline unexpectedly, there will be problems. And engineers in
the generating industry know that, but they don't control the
finance and don't control the politics of NIMBYism.

None of that makes night time charging of EVs impractical. In fact
night charging of EVs improves utilization and provides more profits
to plow into building infrastructure.

We rely on the light summer loading period to keep the electricity
generating plant serviced. If you run everything flat out continuously
(as we are doing at present during every winter cold spell) then
eventually you will get serious in service failures.

Why would you do such a thing? If you pick the worst as your assumption, then you get the worst as your result. "Flat out" is not a requirement to charge EVs.

So they will certainly be doing something about that. In the
mean time night time charging won't come anywhere near capacity
for likely some 10 years or more. If the UK can't figure it out
by then, well... there's no hope for them.

Yup, it is beginning to feel that way.

It breaks my heart, but I've advised my daughter to try to find a
way to emigrate.

Really? I like what I've seen of the UK (TV mostly). It's not like
you are only growing potatoes.

I am not as pessimistic as he is, but the present UK situation is pretty
dire with no-one in government doing anything useful at all. They are
consumed by Brexit related in fighting in both the main parties.

The total demand is lowest at night, but what about residential
demand, does that go up significantly on winter nights?
Yes it does go up in winter. You can see the last annual graph at
http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/ but bear in mind that last
winter was notably mild. Cold winters are much worse.

I would be looking for a daily graph from the winter, not the winter
average. Here...

https://energymag.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/daily-demand-copyright-2011-national-grid-plc-all-rights-reserved.jpg

Not a large increase from summer to winter, but a more significant
evening peak. Night charging of EVs should not be started before 8
or 9 PM.

As things stand there are not enough EVs for it to make any difference
when they try to charge. It may mess up traffic light timings longer
term though as the grid uses the light night time load to catch up on
any accumulated lag due to peak load frequency droop. This tended to
annoy astronomer back in the old days of mains synchronous motors.

The big problem is that there is nothing like enough
electricity generating capacity to provide all the extra power
needed.

Bzzzz! Sorry, you lose. But please play again. You should have

You seem to know nothing of UK constraints or wiring practices.

I know you don't have to expand generation capacity to charge EVs when you aren't fully utilizing the capacity you have.

been listening rather than playing those old 78 rpm records in
your head. Excess, idle capacity at night can very adequately
charge enough EVs to be a third of your entire fleet of vehicles.
That won't be fully utilized for some years to come.

Scandalously, we have <5% excess generating capacity.


I'm also being told it will be a huge problem to provide
enough charging capability for the many potential EV owners
who park on the street or in public facilities. I expect it
is practical to install curb side and parking lot outlets
with some outlay which is small, in fact tiny compared to the
cost of a car. But I kinda have to take them at their word
for that one.

Street parking will be the killer for electric vehicles in the
UK. Imagine how bad it would be with trailing cables running
across the pavement (footpath) every car length in a country
where people do still routinely walk between nearby locations.
This is a daytime google street view - you have to imagine it
with a solid wall of cars parked on either side of the street
and with no preference as to where you park.

Yes, for this to work outlets will be needed at the curb. Not
an insurmountable obstacle.

Insurmountable? No.

Very significant to the point of being impractical, yes.

Why exactly??? Everyone says this because they can't picture it.
But they aren't looking at any real info, just picturing crews
digging up streets and sidewalks with chaos and terror reigning. A

That is pretty much what happens in the UK when they move in to alter
the infrastructure. One of my local routes is presently affected by a
weeks closure for emergency telecoms work. It is causing chaos.

A previous Prime Minister John Major was so exercised by this problem of
utilities digging up the roads that he set up a "cones hotline". It
didn't last long and was a complete waste of time and money.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/cones-hotline-put-into-cold-storage-1601950.html

charge point would be $1000 or maybe as low as $500 per when done in
mass. I'm talking about a 13 amp connection. I guess a credit card
reader would be needed, so a smart unit rather than a dumb outlet and
$1000 per. So how much is a car? $30,000, $40,000? A one time cost
of $1,000 seems small in that context, no?

The problem will be who pays for it. Government certainly won't.

Ok, I admit defeat. The UK will never have any significant adoption of EV usage. We'll see if we can do better in Nigera.

--

Rick C.

++++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[John Larkin]

On Mon, 17 Jun 2019 10:49:14 +0100, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>
wrote:

John Rumm wrote:

There are a few kerbside charging points on the street though.
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/105814/uk-firm-launches-public-ev-chargers-embedded-into-kerb

Wonder if the council has been sued for installing these trip hazards yet?

Ugly asphalt strip on an old stone sidewalk too.

They will fill with rain, dirt, trash, dog by-products, and get run
over by every possible vehicle. Skateboarders and bicyclists and
people in wheelchairs won't like them.

But hey, the mayor approves.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

 

[TTman]

On 17/06/2019 10:36, John Rumm wrote:

On 17/06/2019 03:05, krw@notreal.com wrote:
On 16 Jun 2019 09:41:26 -0700, Winfield Hill <winfieldhill@yahoo.com
wrote:

John Rumm wrote...

Street charging is a more difficult problem to solve...

I can charge on the street, if I can park within two
car spots of my driveway.  Apartment dwellers in a
crowded city have a problem.  Several are like that
here at work, but they can charge up in our garage.

You're allowed to put a power cord across the public right-of-way
(sidewalk, boulevard, etc.)?

No, can't see that being looked upon favourably. There are a few
kerbside charging points on the street though.

Here is a relatively new example:

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/105814/uk-firm-launches-public-ev-chargers-embedded-into-kerb

That looks like it's dead in the water.... How long before it gets
trashed by vandals/water/dirt etc?.Madness and a trip hazard to all
those who walk with a mobile welded to their ear... LOL

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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[Winfield Hill]

John Larkin wrote...

Martin Brown wrote:

240 x 100 = 24kW

200A service on 230Vac CT, standard
in MA for new homes, for 5 decades.


--
Thanks,
- Win

 

[Cursitor Doom]

On Mon, 17 Jun 2019 06:11:21 -0700, John Larkin wrote:

> But hey, the mayor approves.

Trump knows that mayor far better than the gormless Londoners who voted
for him do.




--
Leave first - THEN negotiate!

 

[John Larkin]

On Mon, 17 Jun 2019 10:04:35 +0100, "dennis@home"
<dennis@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On 16/06/2019 22:58, John Rumm wrote:

Its the transition that will probably be most problematic where only
some on street parking spots have access to a charger, and lots of those
get blocked by IC engine cars.



They do that a lot in ikea.

It wouldn't happen as much if they didn't put the charging spaces next
to the door.

Pretty soon they are going to be in trouble as the spaces are too small
for disabled spaces so they have no charging spaces for the disabled.

This Tesla charging station is seldom used (it's up in the mountains
where Teslas rarely dare to go, especially in winter)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7i8ufcz1mq6fuuo/Tesla_1.jpg?dl=0

so when Safeway is crowded, real cars park in the slots.

That's my Audi. It loves mountains and snow. We can make it from San
Francisco to Truckee on one tank of gas, in a blizzard, with the
heater and headlights on. With 4wd and snow tires, we just smile at
the chain control checkpoint folks.







--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

 

[John Larkin]

On Mon, 17 Jun 2019 09:50:39 +0100, Martin Brown
<'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:

On 16/06/2019 18:31, John Larkin wrote:
On Sun, 16 Jun 2019 15:47:11 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
curd@notformail.com> wrote:

On Sun, 16 Jun 2019 08:11:39 -0700, John Larkin wrote:

We have 30KW, 120-N-120 at 125 amps. We have gas too, so we use a tiny
fraction of that capacity.

If you apply that same methodology to the UK supply, it comes out at 48kW.
If we're comparing systems, it's important to use the same methodology as
you will no doubt appreciate.

I multiplied the available voltage by the available current. Do you
use a different way of computing power?

He seems to have assumed a two phase supply to the home which is almost
never the case in the UK. All domestic premises are single phase and
usually 100A main fuse (although older properties may be 40, 60 or 80A.

240 x 100 = 24kW

Our village hall has two incoming phases 100A but it is unusual.
Farms are often on three phase to power grain driers and the like.

Businesses are often three phase here, with a variety of strange
connections. One is the "stinger" connection, where l-l is 240 volts
but neutral is the center tap of one leg, so 120-N-120 is also
available.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

 

[John Larkin]

On Mon, 17 Jun 2019 11:35:29 +0100, Clive Arthur
<cliveta@nowaytoday.co.uk> wrote:

On 16/06/2019 16:04, John Larkin wrote:
On Sun, 16 Jun 2019 22:08:52 +1000, Chris Jones

snipped

I was surprised how common it is in the UK to have instant electric
water heaters for showers, often 10kW or more. Here is a typical example:
https://www.screwfix.com/p/mira-sprint-multi-fit-white-10-8kw-electric-shower/257fr


Two year guarantee? Labor probably not included. Interesting that it
has temperature control *and* power control. "Sure, I feel like a cold
shower today because the grid is stressed."

Temperature is controlled by adjusting the flow rate through the heater,
but for a 10kW shower the element is usually tapped so you can have
lower power for hot days when the input temperature is high.

Why not use a triac?


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

 

[John Larkin]

On Mon, 17 Jun 2019 15:54:28 +0100, The Marquis Saint Evremonde
<Evremonde@bastille.com> wrote:

John Rumm <see.my.signature@nowhere.null> posted
On 16/06/2019 17:41, Winfield Hill wrote:
John Rumm wrote...

Street charging is a more difficult problem to solve...
I can charge on the street, if I can park within two
car spots of my driveway. Apartment dwellers in a
crowded city have a problem. Several are like that
here at work, but they can charge up in our garage.

Its the transition that will probably be most problematic where only
some on street parking spots have access to a charger, and lots of
those get blocked by IC engine cars.

The newly elected Liberal Democrat council in my London borough tried to
introduce a scheme under which the cost of residents' street parking
permits would quadruple to Ł400 for petrol cars, and quintuple for
diesels, but fall to zero for electric cars. The idea being (so they
said) to encourage people to dump their Dirty Diesels and switch to
electric vehicles.

The imbeciles on the council had to be reminded that the only residents
who needed street parking permits were those who had to park on the
street, and such people couldn't have electric vehicles because it
wouldn't be lawful to charge them at the kerbside.

Many other arguments were raised against the scheme, but that had to be
one of the killers.

San Francisco is governed by its Board of Stupidvisors.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

 

[John Larkin]

On 17 Jun 2019 07:15:40 -0700, Winfield Hill <winfieldhill@yahoo.com>
wrote:

John Larkin wrote...

Martin Brown wrote:

240 x 100 = 24kW

200A service on 230Vac CT, standard
in MA for new homes, for 5 decades.

Is electric heat common there?

My wife is from Scituate, and they didn't have NG. They used fuel oil
and electricity for heat.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

 

On Mon, 17 Jun 2019 05:16:22 -0700 (PDT), Rick C
<gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

Short days are even more of a problem.

Are you saying there won't be viable solar generation in the UK?

Only with subsidies. In midsummer you get plenty of power during long
days but in mid winter you only get 4 hours of sunshine on a good day
and the sun manages a peak altitude of 15 degrees at London and 6 less
at Edinburgh. Solar powered "Please go round the dangerous bend" signs
in the UK are typically dead two hours after sunset in mid winter.

The info I find is 7 hrs 13 mins daylight in Aspatria on the shortest day of the year. Not sure what you are talking about with 4 hours. Even Edinburgh gets 6 hrs 58 mins.

Do you really expect that a sun a few degrees above horizon would
produce any significant amount of electricity. At high latitudes, the
sun spends a significant amount of time close to the horizon. The air
masses attenuates so much that you can look at the sun with naked
eyes.

 

[The Marquis Saint Evremon]

John Rumm <see.my.signature@nowhere.null> posted

On 16/06/2019 17:41, Winfield Hill wrote:
John Rumm wrote...

Street charging is a more difficult problem to solve...
I can charge on the street, if I can park within two
car spots of my driveway. Apartment dwellers in a
crowded city have a problem. Several are like that
here at work, but they can charge up in our garage.

Its the transition that will probably be most problematic where only
some on street parking spots have access to a charger, and lots of
those get blocked by IC engine cars.

The newly elected Liberal Democrat council in my London borough tried to
introduce a scheme under which the cost of residents' street parking
permits would quadruple to Ł400 for petrol cars, and quintuple for
diesels, but fall to zero for electric cars. The idea being (so they
said) to encourage people to dump their Dirty Diesels and switch to
electric vehicles.

The imbeciles on the council had to be reminded that the only residents
who needed street parking permits were those who had to park on the
street, and such people couldn't have electric vehicles because it
wouldn't be lawful to charge them at the kerbside.

Many other arguments were raised against the scheme, but that had to be
one of the killers.

--
Evremonde

 

On Mon, 17 Jun 2019 04:42:43 -0700 (PDT), Rick C
<gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

One problem in the UK is that the PEN can break leaving the safety
earth at a high voltage in the house.

This is flat out wrong. There is no PEN in UK mains wiring. Only three
phase live and one neutral return are present on the poles.

Not sure what you mean by "on the poles".

With open wires, it is easy to count 1-2-3-4 wires in a three phase
feed, not 5 wires. The neutral N is connected to the star point of the
wye connected distribution transformer secondary. Especially with open
wires, there is a risk that the neutral is broken but not all phase
conductors are broken e.g. due to a falling tree. What good would a
separate 5th PE conductor to the transformer star point do ? It is as
likely to fail when a tree falls ?
..
The 4 wire connection is known as TN-C and in older installation could
go into the houses as such. If a grounded socket was needed, make a 2
cm long jumper between the N and PE connectors. The potential of the
PE connector and equipment chassises varied in different sockets,
causing all kinds of problems to computer systems.

>I have talked to many hams and looked at any number of web sites. PEN is a combined neutral and protective earth. This is done to save on the cost of the wiring.

New houses are wired internally as TN-S i.e. separate N and PE, thus
in all rooms, the PE connector is the same potential in normal
situations.

Only when it reaches the junction box in the home is the protective earth separated and run through the home.
To keep the circuit safe in the event of a break in the PEN the various metal facilities in the home are "bonded" to the common ground/neutral connection this junction box.

This is equipotential bonding.

>This is designated TN-C-S.

Yes

> There is no earth rod required at the home. I am told this is a very common arrangement.

This varies between jurisdictions.

In Finland, when building new houses, there is a requirement to
install a continuous thick bare copper wire around the perimeter of
the building a few meters below ground. Both ends of the copper loop,
the PEN from the distribution transformer and the internal wiring N
and PE are connected to the equipotential point. This will keep the
basement at constant potential and apparently also helps conduct
lightning currents from a tree and roots into the grounding loop, thus
preventing lightning current from hitting from below from the roots
into other conductors in the basement.

 

[Clive Arthur]

On 17/06/2019 14:56, John Larkin wrote:

On Mon, 17 Jun 2019 11:35:29 +0100, Clive Arthur
cliveta@nowaytoday.co.uk> wrote:

On 16/06/2019 16:04, John Larkin wrote:
On Sun, 16 Jun 2019 22:08:52 +1000, Chris Jones

snipped

I was surprised how common it is in the UK to have instant electric
water heaters for showers, often 10kW or more. Here is a typical example:
https://www.screwfix.com/p/mira-sprint-multi-fit-white-10-8kw-electric-shower/257fr


Two year guarantee? Labor probably not included. Interesting that it
has temperature control *and* power control. "Sure, I feel like a cold
shower today because the grid is stressed."

Temperature is controlled by adjusting the flow rate through the heater,
but for a 10kW shower the element is usually tapped so you can have
lower power for hot days when the input temperature is high.

Why not use a triac?

I'm not a shower designer, but the method used works well and is
reliable, I guess it's cheaper too. And you'd still need the flow
control knob unless you restrict the flow to something which 10kW at the
coldest input could heat adequately.

Cheers
--
Clive

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 17/06/19 15:54, The Marquis Saint Evremonde wrote:

John Rumm <see.my.signature@nowhere.null> posted
On 16/06/2019 17:41, Winfield Hill wrote:
John Rumm wrote...

Street charging is a more difficult problem to solve...
   I can charge on the street, if I can park within two
  car spots of my driveway.  Apartment dwellers in a
  crowded city have a problem.  Several are like that
  here at work, but they can charge up in our garage.

Its the transition that will probably be most problematic where only some on
street parking spots have access to a charger, and lots of those get blocked
by IC engine cars.

The newly elected Liberal Democrat council in my London borough tried to
introduce a scheme under which the cost of residents' street parking permits
would quadruple to ÂŁ400 for petrol cars, and quintuple for diesels, but fall to
zero for electric cars. The idea being (so they said) to encourage people to
dump their Dirty Diesels and switch to electric vehicles.

The imbeciles on the council had to be reminded that the only residents who
needed street parking permits were those who had to park on the street, and such
people couldn't have electric vehicles because it wouldn't be lawful to charge
them at the kerbside.

I can quite see why charging at the kerbside is, er,
problematic (see my other posts), but what makes it illegal.

Many other arguments were raised against the scheme, but that had to be one of
the killers.

Joined up thinking? They've heard of it.

 

[The Marquis Saint Evremon]

Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> posted

On 17/06/19 15:54, The Marquis Saint Evremonde wrote:
The imbeciles on the council had to be reminded that the only
residents who needed street parking permits were those who had to
park on the street, and such people couldn't have electric vehicles
because it wouldn't be lawful to charge them at the kerbside.

I can quite see why charging at the kerbside is, er,
problematic (see my other posts), but what makes it illegal.

You'd have to run a cable across the pavement, perhaps for hundreds of
yards, creating both a trip hazard and an electrical hazard. Maybe not a
criminal offence (I don't know) but certainly exposing you to civil
liability for injury. And not scaleable to dozens of electric cars in
the same street, because of the resulting spaghetti.

--
Evremonde

 

[John Rumm]

On 17/06/2019 15:20, TTman wrote:

On 17/06/2019 10:36, John Rumm wrote:
On 17/06/2019 03:05, krw@notreal.com wrote:
On 16 Jun 2019 09:41:26 -0700, Winfield Hill <winfieldhill@yahoo.com
wrote:

John Rumm wrote...

Street charging is a more difficult problem to solve...

I can charge on the street, if I can park within two
car spots of my driveway.  Apartment dwellers in a
crowded city have a problem.  Several are like that
here at work, but they can charge up in our garage.

You're allowed to put a power cord across the public right-of-way
(sidewalk, boulevard, etc.)?

No, can't see that being looked upon favourably. There are a few
kerbside charging points on the street though.

Here is a relatively new example:

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/105814/uk-firm-launches-public-ev-chargers-embedded-into-kerb




That looks like it's dead in the water.... How long before it gets
trashed by vandals/water/dirt etc?.Madness and a trip hazard to all
those who walk with a mobile welded to their ear... LOL

Yup it does seem like an odd design, not sure what it is supposed to
achieve over the more traditional street side charging points.


--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

 

[Cursitor Doom]

On Mon, 17 Jun 2019 05:16:22 -0700, Rick C wrote:

Ok, I admit defeat. The UK will never have any significant adoption of
EV usage.

I sincerely hope you're proved right. What a vast waste of public money
that would result in. All so a bunch of self-righteous virtue-signallers
can kid themselves they're superior to everyone else - when they're not.




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