EV Charging in the UK

[John Larkin]

On Sun, 16 Jun 2019 22:05:31 -0400, krw@notreal.com wrote:

On 16 Jun 2019 09:41:26 -0700, Winfield Hill <winfieldhill@yahoo.com
wrote:

John Rumm wrote...

Street charging is a more difficult problem to solve...

I can charge on the street, if I can park within two
car spots of my driveway. Apartment dwellers in a
crowded city have a problem. Several are like that
here at work, but they can charge up in our garage.

You're allowed to put a power cord across the public right-of-way
(sidewalk, boulevard, etc.)?

Product idea: an outlet sort of like a GFD, but it cuts off if too
many KWH are used in some time period. For garages and motels and
things that don't want electric car owners stealing their power.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

 

[John Larkin]

On Sun, 16 Jun 2019 20:08:41 -0700 (PDT), keith@kjwdesigns.com wrote:

On Sunday, 16 June 2019 20:02:53 UTC-7, Rick C wrote:
..
Do you know anything about why they lost money in Q1 after turning large profits in Q3 and Q4 last year?

...

They had to fill the channel with Model 3 for sales in Europe and China and they had a $900M bond payment come due.

It didn't help that the Model S and X are due a refresh that had been leaked probably holding up their sales.

kw

https://www.thedrive.com/news/24659/nearly-190m-of-teslas-q3-profit-was-earned-by-selling-regulatory-credits-not-sales-revenue


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

 

[John Larkin]

On Mon, 17 Jun 2019 04:03:19 GMT, Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> wrote:

John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

Product idea: an outlet sort of like a GFD, but it cuts off if too
many KWH are used in some time period. For garages and motels and
things that don't want electric car owners stealing their power.

You have been driving for hours, check into a motel and find you cannot
recharge your car?

Sure. You could pay extra for some KWHs.

Free fuel is really appealing to some people.

Go across the street to another motel that advertises charge hookups. Just
add the cost to your room bill.

If they advertise free charging, then it's not stealing.

I've never seen that, but I suppose it happens. The motel might need
to upgrade their service and wiring to handle everyone plugging in.
They certainly don't want extension cords running out of doors or
windows into the parking places.






--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Sun, 16 Jun 2019 20:00:49 -0400) it happened bitrex
<user@example.net> wrote in <RKANE.100816$pr3.85089@fx37.iad>:

On 6/16/19 3:08 PM, Rick C wrote:
On Sunday, June 16, 2019 at 11:31:23 AM UTC-4, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Sun, 16 Jun 2019 02:41:27 -0700, Rick C wrote:

Let me repeat myself yet again. Charge at home, always have a full
battery in the morning and never have to drive to a busy, smelly, nasty
gas station again.

I thought you were referencing the situation specifically in the UK,
where access to charging, even if you own your own home, is frequently
impossible.

There is no point in continuing to discuss this with you. "Impossible" is a strong word. If that really applies in the UK,
then you guys have some very seriously large problems. I have had posters from the UK talk like they don't expect any new
generation capability to be built even in 30 years. What happened to the UK, one time ruler of the waves, breakers of the Enigma
code? You guys can't even figure out how to install electric outlets???


https://www.amazon.com/Conntek-20261-100-Extension-Cord-Listed/dp/B078KHQ7QZ/

they said it couldn't be done

Netherlands, still next to UK, continental drift apart,
showed me this news this morning,, screen shot in Dutch:
http://panteltje.com/pub/less_electric.gif
It says that lease companies and environmental groups fear a break
on the 'electric' cars bandwagon.
It says the government has plans to half subsidies for electric cars
and will not put extra taxes on normal cars.
The lease companies fear that electric cars will be 'needlessly' more expensive.

I think somebody in our government is doing the right thing


The hype is over before it took form!

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 17/06/19 03:22, bitrex wrote:

On 6/16/19 8:32 PM, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 17/06/19 00:59, bitrex wrote:

https://www.amazon.com/Conntek-20261-100-Extension-Cord-Listed/dp/B078KHQ7QZ/

yankee ingenuity to the rescue

Good try, but no cigar.

But just a /little/ impractical when it has to reach from
the top-floor flat (zoomed in) to the red car (zoomed out
then behind right foot):
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4660229,-2.6098948,3a,15y,46.44h,100.67t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sBvUrLYxFNTfvp42f4NJkiA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192


That would be normal near where I live, and triple the
distance is often the case!

wow, look at all those Audis, Rovers, BMWs and shit all lined up with their rims
still on lol. Tiny street, that street could be stripped for parts in like 10 min.

This area, a couple of miles away from that picture is
(or used to be) one of the car crime hotspots outside
London. It is also one of the expensive areas, so most
of these properties have been subdivided into flats.

It is also a conservation area, meaning very few changes to
buildings/street furniture etc are allowed. For example,
the window frames have to be wood; UPVC double glazing is
forbidden.

None of these places has any car infrastructure, and
finding a parking place is notoriously difficult.
Good luck finding a way to charge an EV here!

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4547461,-2.6218424,3a,75y,81.99h,94.58t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sImNrZVnpnthMWNxmXZGxng!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4536282,-2.6213062,3a,75y,68.98h,89.08t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRFOWkod_BSkU0jAhPVGhmQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Or another nearby city

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.3861957,-2.363756,3a,75y,43.16h,86.57t/data=!3m10!1e1!3m8!1sgLAHeQsdtEw9t-NVPbgAUQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DgLAHeQsdtEw9t-NVPbgAUQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D152.21129%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192!9m2!1b1!2i45


There are many, many /many/ places in the UK like
this, ditto European cities.

It is one example of why Rick C really ought to go
and see /before/ he makes up his mind.

 

[Martin Brown]

On 16/06/2019 19:46, Rick C wrote:

On Sunday, June 16, 2019 at 10:09:15 AM UTC-4, John Rumm wrote:
On 16/06/2019 10:42, Cursitor Doom wrote:

Rather than have guessing games among Americans as to what the
situation in the UK is, just ask the Brits direct!

On Sat, 15 Jun 2019 13:05:26 -0700, Rick C wrote:

I'm being told EV charging will be a lot more difficult in the
UK than it is here in the US.

I looked at the typical daily cycle and they have some 10 to 20
GW between the peak and minimum each day with resonably flat
consumption in the trough. That will allow off peak charging
of a third of the 30 million vehicles for 50 miles.

That does rather assume there is not also a move to shift domestic
heating away from gas or oil to electric. We would certainly need
more generating capacity for any significant shift.

Wouldn't it be rather pointless to burn fossil fuels inefficiently to
produce electricity, then use the electricity to make heat? We do it

It is barking mad but it was announced as official government policy
less than a week ago. A parting shot from the worst Prime Minister the
UK has seen in living memory (possibly the worst ever - although there
is scope for that to change when Boris the Buffoon gets the job).

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-global-warming-2050-law-climate-change-uk-a8954406.html

She wants to be remembered for something other than total failure to
deliver Brexit and government bills defeated by the largest margins.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[Martin Brown]

On 16/06/2019 21:50, Rick C wrote:

On Sunday, June 16, 2019 at 2:21:52 PM UTC-4, ke...@kjwdesigns.com
wrote:
On Sunday, 16 June 2019 11:12:36 UTC-7, Rick C wrote: ...

Seems that regardless of the lack of consistency, any EV
connection requires an earth rod with sufficiently low
resistance. I'm willing to bet EVs are designed to be the same
as double insulated tools so electrifying the body simply won't
happen. But you still need the earth rod!
...

On all EV's all of the high-voltage circuitry, including battery
and motors, are galvanically isolated from the chassis.

There is leakage detection from the HV circuitry to chassis to
detect any faults and there are separate positive and negative HV
contactors that are not engaged until after an initial fault check.
Even if one of the contactors fails short the system is still
safe.

The level 2 charger has an isolation barrier to the HV circuitry.

The EVSE used fr AC charging has a built-in RCD to detect other
ground faults

One problem in the UK is that the PEN can break leaving the safety
earth at a high voltage in the house.

This is flat out wrong. There is no PEN in UK mains wiring. Only three
phase live and one neutral return are present on the poles.

UK is a TT configuration with *LOCAL* earth bonding at the premises.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthing_system#TT_network

The safety earth in the UK is local to the house and has absolutely no
physical copper connection back to the step down transformer.
Traditionally it was done by bonding to the incoming lead/copper cold
water pipe but now that these are plastic it is done with a copper stake
driven into the ground. Neutral is earth bonded at the transformer too.

The worst that can happen to the UK safety earth is that it is left
floating when cowboy electricians fail to connect it up.

*Neutral* can drift to any of the phases in a serious fault condition.

So anyone know if the car body is connected to the safety earth?

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[Steve Wilson]

John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Mon, 17 Jun 2019 04:03:19 GMT, Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> wrote:

John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

Product idea: an outlet sort of like a GFD, but it cuts off if too
many KWH are used in some time period. For garages and motels and
things that don't want electric car owners stealing their power.

You have been driving for hours, check into a motel and find you cannot
recharge your car?

Sure. You could pay extra for some KWHs.

That's what I said below.

Free fuel is really appealing to some people.

Go across the street to another motel that advertises charge hookups.
Just add the cost to your room bill.

If they advertise free charging, then it's not stealing.

I never said free charging.

I've never seen that, but I suppose it happens. The motel might need
to upgrade their service and wiring to handle everyone plugging in.
They certainly don't want extension cords running out of doors or
windows into the parking places.

They have to recover their cost somehow. One way would be to offer
charging hookups only in premium rooms. Not everyone will be driving EV's
- ordinary motor vehicles will be around for a long time. They won't need
a charging hookup, so there is no need to charge extra.

Anyway, there is no need for your product idea that "cuts off if too many
KWH are used in some time period."

Just insert your room key to start the charger. Have it stop the charging
automatically as soon as you unplug your car. Add the cost of electricity
to your room bill.

 

[Martin Brown]

On 16/06/2019 20:08, Rick C wrote:

On Sunday, June 16, 2019 at 11:31:23 AM UTC-4, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Sun, 16 Jun 2019 02:41:27 -0700, Rick C wrote:

Let me repeat myself yet again. Charge at home, always have a
full battery in the morning and never have to drive to a busy,
smelly, nasty gas station again.

I thought you were referencing the situation specifically in the
UK, where access to charging, even if you own your own home, is
frequently impossible.

There is no point in continuing to discuss this with you.
"Impossible" is a strong word. If that really applies in the UK,
then you guys have some very seriously large problems. I have had

It does and we do. Nimbys don't want power stations built at all and
market economics in a privatised generation system has resulted in
massive under investment. Whilst planned closures have almost all gone
ahead new build of power stations has been stalled for nearly a decade.

See fig 1 in this report (which proved to be optimistic).
https://www.raeng.org.uk/publications/reports/gb-electricity-capacity-margin

Engineers have been on at the government for decades Professor Ian Fells
used to advise World governments on this and had been pointing out that
UK energy policy was crazy since the turn of the century. Earliest one I
can easily find is in 2005 - he has pretty much been proved right.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2795073.stm

We have a chunk of supergrid spur near us which serves no useful purpose
at all. It was intended to take all the output of the proposed Enron
power station down south where it is needed but Enron went bust before
they even broke ground for the power station.

posters from the UK talk like they don't expect any new generation
capability to be built even in 30 years. What happened to the UK,
one time ruler of the waves, breakers of the Enigma code? You guys
can't even figure out how to install electric outlets???

They might get some new generation kit online in as little as 10 years
but the government is so preoccupied with Brexit that basically no
strategic decisions on energy infrastructure are being taken. Worse
still they are applying installed capacity heuristics that made sense
for real generation (where you have real 20MW on tap to use or not) to
the installed peak output of renewables where availability scales with
the cube of the windspeed or whether the sun is shining.

Brexit itself has screwed up all the heavy carbon users since 28/3
(official Brexit day) they can no longer buy EU carbon credits.

https://www.ft.com/content/73d47ce2-6049-11e9-a27a-fdd51850994c

This killed British Steel stone dead a couple of weeks back.

You have to understand that UK streets are fairly narrow congested and
street parking very crowded. There are already water, sewage, gas,
electricity and cable TV buried under the pavements and roads.

It is a serious undertaking to close a road to make such alterations.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[Martin Brown]

On 16/06/2019 15:34, Winfield Hill wrote:

Martin Brown wrote...

A helicopter with a sniffer flies along it every fortnight.

I hope it's buried under several meters of cement.

About 10m of soil or so I am told. It is no dig zone 10m either side.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[piglet]

On 16/06/2019 9:50 pm, Rick C wrote:

... Even though the car is essentially a double insulated thing, the ground pin on the connector may well be connected to the chassis making it hot! ...

I don't think that is correct. If the car is "double insulated" then
almost by definition that means the chassis will *not* be connected to a
ground pin?

piglet

 

[dennis@home]

On 16/06/2019 22:58, John Rumm wrote:

Its the transition that will probably be most problematic where only
some on street parking spots have access to a charger, and lots of those
get blocked by IC engine cars.

They do that a lot in ikea.

It wouldn't happen as much if they didn't put the charging spaces next
to the door.

Pretty soon they are going to be in trouble as the spaces are too small
for disabled spaces so they have no charging spaces for the disabled.

 

[Martin Brown]

On 16/06/2019 18:31, John Larkin wrote:

On Sun, 16 Jun 2019 15:47:11 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
curd@notformail.com> wrote:

On Sun, 16 Jun 2019 08:11:39 -0700, John Larkin wrote:

We have 30KW, 120-N-120 at 125 amps. We have gas too, so we use a tiny
fraction of that capacity.

If you apply that same methodology to the UK supply, it comes out at 48kW.
If we're comparing systems, it's important to use the same methodology as
you will no doubt appreciate.

I multiplied the available voltage by the available current. Do you
use a different way of computing power?

He seems to have assumed a two phase supply to the home which is almost
never the case in the UK. All domestic premises are single phase and
usually 100A main fuse (although older properties may be 40, 60 or 80A.

240 x 100 = 24kW

Our village hall has two incoming phases 100A but it is unusual.
Farms are often on three phase to power grain driers and the like.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[Martin Brown]

On 16/06/2019 18:04, Winfield Hill wrote:

Tom Gardner wrote...

Official "notices of insufficiency" are regularly issued.

If smart metering is introduced, with peak-load pricing,
people will start finding ways to time their usage. We
don't have that here, but I wish we did.

The UK implementation of "smart" electricity metering like the DAB radio
is so utterly cocked up in the UK that it could be used by a hostile
state actor (or fairly advanced hackers) to thrash load on and off the
system in an extremely destructive way. They are still rolling out the
defective smart meters knowing that they are a disaster.

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-6435495/Why-4-million-smart-meters-ripped-homes.html

They fail and become as dumb as a rock again if you change supplier and
the cryptography on the generation 1 stuff they rolled out can be beaten
by almost anyone who wants to do it. I refused to have one (and couldn't
get one anyway since there is no mobile phone signal at the meter).

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[John Rumm]

On 17/06/2019 03:05, krw@notreal.com wrote:

On 16 Jun 2019 09:41:26 -0700, Winfield Hill <winfieldhill@yahoo.com
wrote:

John Rumm wrote...

Street charging is a more difficult problem to solve...

I can charge on the street, if I can park within two
car spots of my driveway. Apartment dwellers in a
crowded city have a problem. Several are like that
here at work, but they can charge up in our garage.

You're allowed to put a power cord across the public right-of-way
(sidewalk, boulevard, etc.)?

No, can't see that being looked upon favourably. There are a few
kerbside charging points on the street though.

Here is a relatively new example:

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/105814/uk-firm-launches-public-ev-chargers-embedded-into-kerb



--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

 

[Tim Streater]

In article <gmp60qFojokU1@mid.individual.net>, Andy Burns
<usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:

John Rumm wrote:

There are a few kerbside charging points on the street though.

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/105814/uk-firm-launches-public-ev-char
gers-embedded-into-kerb

Wonder if the council has been sued for installing these trip hazards yet?

Scrotes will learn to fill them with superglue or other more witty
substances.

--
"People don't buy Microsoft for quality, they buy it for compatibility
with what Bob in accounting bought last year. Trace it back - they buy
Microsoft because the IBM Selectric didn't suck much" - P Seebach, afc

 

[Martin Brown]

On 16/06/2019 23:02, Rick C wrote:

On Sunday, June 16, 2019 at 4:42:22 PM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 16/06/19 20:01, Rick C wrote:
On Sunday, June 16, 2019 at 10:34:42 AM UTC-4, Tom Gardner
wrote:
On 16/06/19 09:53, Rick C wrote:
On Sunday, June 16, 2019 at 4:18:06 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown
wrote:
On 15/06/2019 21:05, Rick C wrote:
I'm being told EV charging will be a lot more difficult
in the UK than it is here in the US.

I looked at the typical daily cycle and they have some 10
to 20 GW between the peak and minimum each day with
resonably flat consumption in the trough. That will
allow off peak charging of a third of the 30 million
vehicles for 50 miles.

The problem is that charging parked cars during the day
will coincide with peak industrial demand and supply is
already so tight during winter that they have had to pay
major industrial users to drop off to avoid rolling
blackouts. Prevarication over new nuclear build hasn't
helped.

What will allow charging during the day is increased electric
production from renewable sources. Solar is getting cheap
enough that it is profitable to install it on a mass scale...
although may not so much in the UK which is more northern
than anyplace in our lower 48. But it won't be long before
that is true in the UK as well. Please don't go off about
cloudy days and such since EVs don't need charging every day
for most people and solar still produces reduced amounts of
energy even on cloudy days.

Cloudy days are a noticeable problem.

Short days are even more of a problem.

Are you saying there won't be viable solar generation in the UK?
Your comments are a bit like Larkin's and Trump's, saying
something without saying anything.

Define "viable".

Sufficient for all the purposes you imagine, e.g. charging EVs
overnight in winter in Scotland - no.

Why do you single out Scotland??? The discussion is the UK. There
are a number of solar farms in the UK right now. Should they be torn
down?

Their payback is severely compromised by the high latitude of the UK.

In summer they are OK with our long days but in mid winter when we need
all the power we can get they barely manage 5 hours at less than 10% of
peak rating. The sun is very low barely getting 15 degrees above the
horizon at London and 13 degrees at Edinburgh. It is often cloudy.

There is a roughly 10 fold loss between summer and winter output.

For solid physics/chemistry with solid numbers and without
meaningless adjectives, see the resource lauded by *everybody* from
The Greens to Big Oil: http://withouthotair.com/

MacKay includes several options for the UK future, without
preferring any. But he does insist on solid science and that the
arithmetic adds up.

I tried to read the synopsis, but it is so full of verbiage and
unrelated side trips I couldn't find the meat. Care to tell me what
he is saying? I was looking at the 19 page summary. I guess he is
selling a book.

He was an adviser to the UK government until he sadly died a couple of
years back. The book is on sale but he made the content freely available
online. It is a fairly articulate summary of the science behind the
various technologies that might be used to address climate change. It is
generally fairly reliable although it will become out of date now it is
no longer being maintained.

So some charging will be supportable in the day time with out
impact. Just give it a few more years. From what I'm hearing
EVs aren't very popular in the UK for now anyway.


Charging overnight would work but then the generating
capacity would have to run flat out on a continuous basis.

And that is a good thing. The UK has gotten themselves in a
bind by not expanding their capacity enough.

Yup. We have <5% excess generating capacity, so if two major
plants go offline unexpectedly, there will be problems. And
engineers in the generating industry know that, but they don't
control the finance and don't control the politics of
NIMBYism.

None of that makes night time charging of EVs impractical. In
fact night charging of EVs improves utilization and provides more
profits to plow into building infrastructure.

You continue to ignore the parlous state of our electricity
industry.

Above you talk about "solid physics/chemistry with solid numbers and
without meaningless adjectives", then say stuff like this. "Parlous
state"...

I have explained what I am talking about. I have explained the one
part of your grid I am concerned about. You don't discuss this, you
just complain I am ignoring stuff.

But you are barking up the wrong tree and refuse to listen. The problem
in the UK is not with the mains distribution infrastructure but with the
long standing lack of investment in new generating capacity.

So they will certainly be doing something about that. In the
mean time night time charging won't come anywhere near
capacity for likely some 10 years or more. If the UK can't
figure it out by then, well... there's no hope for them.

Yup, it is beginning to feel that way.

It breaks my heart, but I've advised my daughter to try to find
a way to emigrate.

Really? I like what I've seen of the UK (TV mostly). It's not
like you are only growing potatoes.

Why am I not surprised that your impression of the UK is formed
from watching TV programmes.

Come here, open your eyes.

I would, but if everyone there is like you I wouldn't learn anything
because they don't actually say anything.

You refuse to listen to anything that doesn't fit with your preconceptions.

But I'm being told there are two problems with that. One
is that distribution is sized for an average of 2 kW
consumption per household in many older areas (which they
seem to have a lot of). This clearly makes it hard to
charge EVs overnight at just 3 kW which otherwise would
be fine for a typical user. In this case it would
require replacement of a lot of distribution cabling.

The distribution isn't quite that bad. It can cope with the
likes of 3kW kettle loads on almost simultaneously in 80%
of households when there is a major football final on at
half time or a wimbledon final ends. But they have to
prepare for it.

What does that mean, "they have to prepare for it"? What can
you do to beef up distribution capability? The problem isn't
generation or transmission typically. It's the local
residential distribution.

The problem only exists in your imagination or when something like a
major gas supply failure changes the local load so that everyone turns
on multiple electric fires at the same time.

The generating side watches major events to have hot spare capacity and
the very fast start pumped storage system all ready to go when there is
a tea break. Distribution has never failed on any of these occassions.

Actually, this may not be an issue in the UK at all. In many
parts of the US we use heat pumps. The distribution can
handle 10-15-20 kW furnaces kicking on all night when the
weather gets too cold for the heat pump to work. My concern
has been that a 7 kW *continuous* load will be added in a
significant portion of homes without coordination of timing.

My understanding is that the UK doesn't use heat pumps with
electric back up.

Correct. Residential premises don't use heat pumps running in
either direction.


The total demand is lowest at night, but what about
residential demand, does that go up significantly on winter
nights?
Yes it does go up in winter. You can see the last annual graph
at http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/ but bear in mind that
last winter was notably mild. Cold winters are much worse.

I would be looking for a daily graph from the winter, not the
winter average. Here...

https://energymag.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/daily-demand-copyright-2011-national-grid-plc-all-rights-reserved.jpg



Not a large increase from summer to winter, but a more significant evening
peak. Night charging of EVs should not be started before 8 or 9
PM.

Correct, since last winter was noticeably mild - as I clearly
stated.

There is more difference in normal winters, and the difference
should be understood in the context of <5% energy generation
margin.

How does that have anything to do with EV charging? EVs won't
utilize the full excess capacity until around a third of your cars
are EVs. So why are you harping on this so much? It looks like the
UK won't reach this point for many years. If the UK can't build new
generating capacity there is a much bigger problem than EV charging.
The UK will go down!

Possibly. Certainly unusually cold winters will stress the generating
capacity past breaking point. It is already dangerously close to the
safety margin in winter and has been for almost a decade. It very nearly
went pear shaped during the Beast from the East in March last year.

Shedding industrial loads and paying them to stay off is no way to run
an electricity *generating* business.

The big problem is that there is nothing like enough
electricity generating capacity to provide all the extra
power needed.

Bzzzz! Sorry, you lose. But please play again. You should
have been listening rather than playing those old 78 rpm
records in your head. Excess, idle capacity at night can very
adequately charge enough EVs to be a third of your entire
fleet of vehicles. That won't be fully utilized for some
years to come.

Scandalously, we have <5% excess generating capacity.


I'm also being told it will be a huge problem to provide
enough charging capability for the many potential EV
owners who park on the street or in public facilities. I
expect it is practical to install curb side and parking
lot outlets with some outlay which is small, in fact tiny
compared to the cost of a car. But I kinda have to take
them at their word for that one.

Street parking will be the killer for electric vehicles in
the UK. Imagine how bad it would be with trailing cables
running across the pavement (footpath) every car length in
a country where people do still routinely walk between
nearby locations. This is a daytime google street view -
you have to imagine it with a solid wall of cars parked on
either side of the street and with no preference as to
where you park.

Yes, for this to work outlets will be needed at the curb.
Not an insurmountable obstacle.

Insurmountable? No.

Very significant to the point of being impractical, yes.

Why exactly??? Everyone says this because they can't picture it.
But they aren't looking at any real info, just picturing crews
digging up streets and sidewalks with chaos and terror reigning.
A charge point would be $1000 or maybe as low as $500 per when
done in mass. I'm talking about a 13 amp connection. I guess a
credit card reader would be needed, so a smart unit rather than a
dumb outlet and $1000 per. So how much is a car? $30,000,
$40,000? A one time cost of $1,000 seems small in that context,
no?

Come here and have a look; see for yourself.

You seem to be basing your understanding of the UK on TV
programmes. What would you think of someone that based their
understanding of the US on Baywatch and Midsummer Murders and NCIS
and The Wire and The West Wing?

What are you talking about? I was talking about the cost of electric
outlet installations and you segway to TV shows.

You seem to be unable to understand the situation in the UK.

But gauging from the seemingly unremitting resistance I
encountered in the UK group I was discussing this with, there
won't be much progress any time soon on this matter.

Correct.


Although, I see about half these cars are in driveways.
Install an outside outlet or two on each of these homes and
you are halfway there to charging at home!

Not in my road, not in many roads.

Ok, when you guys want to catch up, let us know. The US is
pretty good at helping third world countries... ;-) Just
kidding.

In some respects the US is a third world country. Just kidding.

Lol! You have to admit if you are so close to your grid collapsing
and everyone knows about it, but no one can do anything about it, I
think that's pretty much a third world country. This is what you
seem to be telling me. Is the UK really that helpless?

Its government is so preoccupied with Brexit that nothing else gets a
look in. The electricity MFU has been building for a while. Planned
closures and mothballing of plant that is unprofitable to run keeps
going apace but new build of generating capacity is stalled. eg

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-46940172

There are several others in a part built never finished state too.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[Martin Brown]

On 16/06/2019 20:01, Rick C wrote:

On Sunday, June 16, 2019 at 10:34:42 AM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 16/06/19 09:53, Rick C wrote:
On Sunday, June 16, 2019 at 4:18:06 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown
wrote:
On 15/06/2019 21:05, Rick C wrote:
I'm being told EV charging will be a lot more difficult in
the UK than it is here in the US.

I looked at the typical daily cycle and they have some 10 to
20 GW between the peak and minimum each day with resonably
flat consumption in the trough. That will allow off peak
charging of a third of the 30 million vehicles for 50 miles.

The problem is that charging parked cars during the day will
coincide with peak industrial demand and supply is already so
tight during winter that they have had to pay major industrial
users to drop off to avoid rolling blackouts. Prevarication
over new nuclear build hasn't helped.

What will allow charging during the day is increased electric
production from renewable sources. Solar is getting cheap enough
that it is profitable to install it on a mass scale... although
may not so much in the UK which is more northern than anyplace in
our lower 48. But it won't be long before that is true in the UK
as well. Please don't go off about cloudy days and such since
EVs don't need charging every day for most people and solar
still produces reduced amounts of energy even on cloudy days.

Cloudy days are a noticeable problem.

Short days are even more of a problem.

Are you saying there won't be viable solar generation in the UK?

Only with subsidies. In midsummer you get plenty of power during long
days but in mid winter you only get 4 hours of sunshine on a good day
and the sun manages a peak altitude of 15 degrees at London and 6 less
at Edinburgh. Solar powered "Please go round the dangerous bend" signs
in the UK are typically dead two hours after sunset in mid winter.

On a frosty winters morning they are worse than useless.

Your comments are a bit like Larkin's and Trump's, saying something
without saying anything.

UK latitude is too high for solar PV to make any sense beyond harvesting
the government renewable energy investment grants. Wind power is a
somewhat better proposition but not always available. The killer is that
their output scales as the cube of the windspeed and the coldest winter
days are very often flat calm.

So some charging will be supportable in the day time with out
impact. Just give it a few more years. From what I'm hearing
EVs aren't very popular in the UK for now anyway.


Charging overnight would work but then the generating capacity
would have to run flat out on a continuous basis.

And that is a good thing. The UK has gotten themselves in a bind
by not expanding their capacity enough.

Yup. We have <5% excess generating capacity, so if two major plants
go offline unexpectedly, there will be problems. And engineers in
the generating industry know that, but they don't control the
finance and don't control the politics of NIMBYism.

None of that makes night time charging of EVs impractical. In fact
night charging of EVs improves utilization and provides more profits
to plow into building infrastructure.

We rely on the light summer loading period to keep the electricity
generating plant serviced. If you run everything flat out continuously
(as we are doing at present during every winter cold spell) then
eventually you will get serious in service failures.

So they will certainly be doing something about that. In the
mean time night time charging won't come anywhere near capacity
for likely some 10 years or more. If the UK can't figure it out
by then, well... there's no hope for them.

Yup, it is beginning to feel that way.

It breaks my heart, but I've advised my daughter to try to find a
way to emigrate.

Really? I like what I've seen of the UK (TV mostly). It's not like
you are only growing potatoes.

I am not as pessimistic as he is, but the present UK situation is pretty
dire with no-one in government doing anything useful at all. They are
consumed by Brexit related in fighting in both the main parties.

The total demand is lowest at night, but what about residential
demand, does that go up significantly on winter nights?
Yes it does go up in winter. You can see the last annual graph at
http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/ but bear in mind that last
winter was notably mild. Cold winters are much worse.

I would be looking for a daily graph from the winter, not the winter
average. Here...

https://energymag.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/daily-demand-copyright-2011-national-grid-plc-all-rights-reserved.jpg

Not a large increase from summer to winter, but a more significant
evening peak. Night charging of EVs should not be started before 8
or 9 PM.

As things stand there are not enough EVs for it to make any difference
when they try to charge. It may mess up traffic light timings longer
term though as the grid uses the light night time load to catch up on
any accumulated lag due to peak load frequency droop. This tended to
annoy astronomer back in the old days of mains synchronous motors.

The big problem is that there is nothing like enough
electricity generating capacity to provide all the extra power
needed.

Bzzzz! Sorry, you lose. But please play again. You should have

You seem to know nothing of UK constraints or wiring practices.

been listening rather than playing those old 78 rpm records in
your head. Excess, idle capacity at night can very adequately
charge enough EVs to be a third of your entire fleet of vehicles.
That won't be fully utilized for some years to come.

Scandalously, we have <5% excess generating capacity.


I'm also being told it will be a huge problem to provide
enough charging capability for the many potential EV owners
who park on the street or in public facilities. I expect it
is practical to install curb side and parking lot outlets
with some outlay which is small, in fact tiny compared to the
cost of a car. But I kinda have to take them at their word
for that one.

Street parking will be the killer for electric vehicles in the
UK. Imagine how bad it would be with trailing cables running
across the pavement (footpath) every car length in a country
where people do still routinely walk between nearby locations.
This is a daytime google street view - you have to imagine it
with a solid wall of cars parked on either side of the street
and with no preference as to where you park.

Yes, for this to work outlets will be needed at the curb. Not
an insurmountable obstacle.

Insurmountable? No.

Very significant to the point of being impractical, yes.

Why exactly??? Everyone says this because they can't picture it.
But they aren't looking at any real info, just picturing crews
digging up streets and sidewalks with chaos and terror reigning. A

That is pretty much what happens in the UK when they move in to alter
the infrastructure. One of my local routes is presently affected by a
weeks closure for emergency telecoms work. It is causing chaos.

A previous Prime Minister John Major was so exercised by this problem of
utilities digging up the roads that he set up a "cones hotline". It
didn't last long and was a complete waste of time and money.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/cones-hotline-put-into-cold-storage-1601950.html

charge point would be $1000 or maybe as low as $500 per when done in
mass. I'm talking about a 13 amp connection. I guess a credit card
reader would be needed, so a smart unit rather than a dumb outlet and
$1000 per. So how much is a car? $30,000, $40,000? A one time cost
of $1,000 seems small in that context, no?

The problem will be who pays for it. Government certainly won't.


--
Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[Andy Burns]

John Rumm wrote:

There are a few kerbside charging points on the street though.
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/105814/uk-firm-launches-public-ev-chargers-embedded-into-kerb

Wonder if the council has been sued for installing these trip hazards yet?

 

[Rick C]

On Monday, June 17, 2019 at 4:25:55 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:

On 16/06/2019 21:50, Rick C wrote:
On Sunday, June 16, 2019 at 2:21:52 PM UTC-4, ke...@kjwdesigns.com
wrote:
On Sunday, 16 June 2019 11:12:36 UTC-7, Rick C wrote: ...

Seems that regardless of the lack of consistency, any EV
connection requires an earth rod with sufficiently low
resistance. I'm willing to bet EVs are designed to be the same
as double insulated tools so electrifying the body simply won't
happen. But you still need the earth rod!
...

On all EV's all of the high-voltage circuitry, including battery
and motors, are galvanically isolated from the chassis.

There is leakage detection from the HV circuitry to chassis to
detect any faults and there are separate positive and negative HV
contactors that are not engaged until after an initial fault check.
Even if one of the contactors fails short the system is still
safe.

The level 2 charger has an isolation barrier to the HV circuitry.

The EVSE used fr AC charging has a built-in RCD to detect other
ground faults

One problem in the UK is that the PEN can break leaving the safety
earth at a high voltage in the house.

This is flat out wrong. There is no PEN in UK mains wiring. Only three
phase live and one neutral return are present on the poles.

Not sure what you mean by "on the poles". I have talked to many hams and looked at any number of web sites. PEN is a combined neutral and protective earth. This is done to save on the cost of the wiring. Only when it reaches the junction box in the home is the protective earth separated and run through the home. To keep the circuit safe in the event of a break in the PEN the various metal facilities in the home are "bonded" to the common ground/neutral connection this junction box. This is designated TN-C-S. There is no earth rod required at the home. I am told this is a very common arrangement.

UK is a TT configuration with *LOCAL* earth bonding at the premises.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthing_system#TT_network

In some cases, yes. TT is not universal in the UK.

The safety earth in the UK is local to the house and has absolutely no
physical copper connection back to the step down transformer.
Traditionally it was done by bonding to the incoming lead/copper cold
water pipe but now that these are plastic it is done with a copper stake
driven into the ground. Neutral is earth bonded at the transformer too.

The worst that can happen to the UK safety earth is that it is left
floating when cowboy electricians fail to connect it up.

*Neutral* can drift to any of the phases in a serious fault condition.

So anyone know if the car body is connected to the safety earth?

I don't get why you are adamant that TT is the only system in the UK.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRHyqouJPzE

--

Rick C.

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