EV Charging in the UK

[Cursitor Doom]

On Sun, 16 Jun 2019 10:31:26 -0700, John Larkin wrote:

I multiplied the available voltage by the available current. Do you use
a different way of computing power?

No, exactly the same method as you, as I said.




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[Lasse Langwadt Christense]

søndag den 16. juni 2019 kl. 20.46.26 UTC+2 skrev Rick C:

On Sunday, June 16, 2019 at 10:09:15 AM UTC-4, John Rumm wrote:
On 16/06/2019 10:42, Cursitor Doom wrote:

Rather than have guessing games among Americans as to what the situation
in the UK is, just ask the Brits direct!



On Sat, 15 Jun 2019 13:05:26 -0700, Rick C wrote:

I'm being told EV charging will be a lot more difficult in the UK than
it is here in the US.

I looked at the typical daily cycle and they have some 10 to 20 GW
between the peak and minimum each day with resonably flat consumption in
the trough. That will allow off peak charging of a third of the 30
million vehicles for 50 miles.

That does rather assume there is not also a move to shift domestic
heating away from gas or oil to electric. We would certainly need more
generating capacity for any significant shift.

Wouldn't it be rather pointless to burn fossil fuels inefficiently to produce electricity, then use the electricity to make heat? We do it in the US because many homes don't have gas and heating oil requires a tank which takes up space many homes don't have and is a bit of a bother requiring maintenance. It was only in the 80s or so that we started using heat pumps where before the electric utilities encouraged direct heating from the ceiling, floor or baseboard.

here waste heat from the power-plants and waste incineration is distributed to most homes here. When making electricity and heat the powerplants reach ~90% efficiency

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 16/06/19 20:08, Rick C wrote:

On Sunday, June 16, 2019 at 11:31:23 AM UTC-4, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Sun, 16 Jun 2019 02:41:27 -0700, Rick C wrote:

Let me repeat myself yet again. Charge at home, always have a full
battery in the morning and never have to drive to a busy, smelly, nasty
gas station again.

I thought you were referencing the situation specifically in the UK, where
access to charging, even if you own your own home, is frequently
impossible.

There is no point in continuing to discuss this with you. "Impossible" is a
strong word. If that really applies in the UK, then you guys have some very
seriously large problems. I have had posters from the UK talk like they
don't expect any new generation capability to be built even in 30 years.
What happened to the UK, one time ruler of the waves, breakers of the Enigma
code? You guys can't even figure out how to install electric outlets???

Blimey. Here's a remarkable event: I'm going to side with CD.

Yes, the UK is rather different to the USA.

Yes, in quite a few locations installing electrical outlets
will be difficult to the point of being impossible.

Yes, installation is only part of the problem; there are
others, as mentioned by people that actually know the UK.

And, quite frankly, it is ridiculous to mutter about rulers
of the waves, enigma code etc, when the US can't even give
healthcare to all its citizens, and refuses to reduce its
appalling infant mortality rate, etc.

 

[Cursitor Doom]

On Sun, 16 Jun 2019 12:08:07 -0700, Rick C wrote:

There is no point in continuing to discuss this with you. "Impossible"
is a strong word. If that really applies in the UK, then you guys have
some very seriously large problems. I have had posters from the UK talk
like they don't expect any new generation capability to be built even in
30 years. What happened to the UK, one time ruler of the waves,
breakers of the Enigma code? You guys can't even figure out how to
install electric outlets???

No need to get hysterical. I'm just referring to the desperately
overcrowded streets and the fact that many people in towns and cities
simply cannot park outside their own homes due to the sheer numbers of
cars and the narrowness of the streets.



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[Rick C]

On Sunday, June 16, 2019 at 2:32:58 PM UTC-4, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:

On Sunday, 16 June 2019 10:57:04 UTC-7, Rick C wrote:
...
Those are entirely realistic numbers. My model X is the battle ship of the Tesla fleet and gets 3 miles per kWh. The model 3 can get 5 miles per.. So 6 km/kWh should be no problem for most EVs. Here in the US the Nissan Kia has sold well for some years and there are a lot of them out there. Some have pretty small batteries, 50 mile range I think, but for around town that's fine.
...

I think you mean the Nissan Leaf.

The original Leaf had ~24kWh battery (~21kWh usable) with an EPA range of 73 miles.

It is not the most efficient so it also only gets about 3-4mi/kWh.

Be careful about the various efficiencies quoted - all EVs display consumption from the battery on their internal instrumentation, it does not include charger or battery losses.

In the case of my Tesla M3 the displayed consumption is ~240 Wh/mi (4mi/kWh). The charger has only about 75% efficiency when powered by 120V so the actual consumption from the wall is about 3mi/kWh.

The charger efficiency from 240v is about 85-90%.

Your Model X is probably closer to 2.5mi/kWh when charging from 120v.

kw

Yeah, sorry, Leaf. Kia is a whole other company. lol

I don't really care what the efficiency is as I charge that Tesla superchargers. lol They offered unlimited free supercharging to get people to buy their very expensive cars. So I took them up on it. Some people think I am being a jerk because of this. I tell them I'm a jerk for other reasons, but not this.

--

Rick C.

-+-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Rick C]

On Sunday, June 16, 2019 at 5:01:32 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:

Rick's enthusiasm for electric cars seems centered on getting cheap or
free fuel. He especially relishes stealing it.

OMG! John is so jealous of my car that he has to lie about me. Wow.

Keep working your boards John. One day you can afford a Tesla too. They sell the model 3 pretty inexpensively. I test drove one the other day. It drives so sweet and is a lot faster than your old iron too.

--

Rick C.

-++- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-++- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Rick C]

On Sunday, June 16, 2019 at 2:21:52 PM UTC-4, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:

On Sunday, 16 June 2019 11:12:36 UTC-7, Rick C wrote:
...

Seems that regardless of the lack of consistency, any EV connection requires an earth rod with sufficiently low resistance. I'm willing to bet EVs are designed to be the same as double insulated tools so electrifying the body simply won't happen. But you still need the earth rod!
...

On all EV's all of the high-voltage circuitry, including battery and motors, are galvanically isolated from the chassis.

There is leakage detection from the HV circuitry to chassis to detect any faults and there are separate positive and negative HV contactors that are not engaged until after an initial fault check. Even if one of the contactors fails short the system is still safe.

The level 2 charger has an isolation barrier to the HV circuitry.

The EVSE used fr AC charging has a built-in RCD to detect other ground faults

One problem in the UK is that the PEN can break leaving the safety earth at a high voltage in the house. Even though the car is essentially a double insulated thing, the ground pin on the connector may well be connected to the chassis making it hot! I don't think and RCD anywhere in the line will trip since the current will still be balanced in the line and neutral. But instead of flowing back to the transformer it will be flowing out of the safety earth and through a person touching the car. I think this is why they require a TT grounding method for EV charging.

So anyone know if the car body is connected to the safety earth?

--

Rick C.

-+-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 16/06/19 20:20, Rick C wrote:

On Sunday, June 16, 2019 at 12:41:39 PM UTC-4, Winfield Hill wrote:
John Rumm wrote...

Street charging is a more difficult problem to solve...

I can charge on the street, if I can park within two car spots of my
driveway. Apartment dwellers in a crowded city have a problem. Several
are like that here at work, but they can charge up in our garage.

Once EVs become more popular and it starts to be an issue for people,
businesses and apartments will start installing level 2 charging. They won't
need to convert every spot, just enough to keep up with demand.

In California a law requires apartments and condos to allow a resident to pay
to have a charger installed. At least that's a start.

In the UK many dwellings have no (zero) allocated parking.
Residents have to take pot luck finding somewhere, anywhere,
on the streets.

In the UK many cities refuse to grant planning permission
for offices with adequate numbers of parking spaces. They
know the roads don't have the capacity and want to force
use of public transport.

USA != UK.

 

[Rodney Pont]

On Sun, 16 Jun 2019 10:30:45 -0700 (PDT), Rick C wrote:

>I suggested in a Tesla forum that we could have a distribution capacity problem here in the US but many people didn't understand the difference between generation and distribution. Some others insisted there is adequate reserve capacity, unlike in the UK. So maybe both are right. It's a problem there that will require digging up streets to install higher capacity distribution and no problem at all here in the US.

I think just about all properties in the UK can easily manage 2-3 kw
for car charging but the problem will be a distribution one. There was
a gas outage in a small Yorkshire village a few years ago and the gas
company gave everyone an electric fan heater. When the evening came and
they were all turned on the grid went off due to local overloading. I
think they brought in a diesel generator until the gas leak was fixed.

You also can't run a mains cable over a public footpath to charge your
car in the road. People with drives will be ok but a lot of homes do
not have drives or some form of off road parking.

--
Regards - Rodney Pont
The from address exists but is mostly dumped,
please send any emails to the address below
e-mail rpont (at) gmail (dot) com

 

[John Larkin]

On Sun, 16 Jun 2019 15:48:46 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
<curd@notformail.com> wrote:

On Sun, 16 Jun 2019 02:34:49 -0700, Rick C wrote:

10 kWh per day in the winter seems very light. I've used $60 worth of
electricity in three days when the nights were really cold.

Gee. All that virtue-signalling comes at a price!

Rick's enthusiasm for electric cars seems centered on getting cheap or
free fuel. He especially relishes stealing it.

Some people are born penny-pinchers, squeezing out every opportunity.
I have a relative who brags about getting a new credit card about once
a month, to get the "new customer" bonuses. He makes about $500K a
year.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

 

[Rick C]

On Sunday, June 16, 2019 at 5:16:04 PM UTC-4, Rodney Pont wrote:

On Sun, 16 Jun 2019 10:30:45 -0700 (PDT), Rick C wrote:

I suggested in a Tesla forum that we could have a distribution capacity problem here in the US but many people didn't understand the difference between generation and distribution. Some others insisted there is adequate reserve capacity, unlike in the UK. So maybe both are right. It's a problem there that will require digging up streets to install higher capacity distribution and no problem at all here in the US.

I think just about all properties in the UK can easily manage 2-3 kw
for car charging but the problem will be a distribution one. There was
a gas outage in a small Yorkshire village a few years ago and the gas
company gave everyone an electric fan heater. When the evening came and
they were all turned on the grid went off due to local overloading. I
think they brought in a diesel generator until the gas leak was fixed.

You also can't run a mains cable over a public footpath to charge your
car in the road. People with drives will be ok but a lot of homes do
not have drives or some form of off road parking.

Maybe my posts aren't being seen. I've said several times that in those neighborhoods it will require curb side outlets which will need to involve the government to happen. The cost is still not large. This is not an insurmountable problem. It just has to be addressed and dealt with. We have the same thing here in the city. EV usage is still low so those folks are on their own, they'll use other charging means if they want an EV. There are still plenty of other folks who have driveways and garages and will use EVs and be happy with them.

--

Rick C.

+--+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+--+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Rick C]

On Sunday, June 16, 2019 at 4:46:50 PM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:

On 16/06/19 20:20, Rick C wrote:
On Sunday, June 16, 2019 at 12:41:39 PM UTC-4, Winfield Hill wrote:
John Rumm wrote...

Street charging is a more difficult problem to solve...

I can charge on the street, if I can park within two car spots of my
driveway. Apartment dwellers in a crowded city have a problem. Several
are like that here at work, but they can charge up in our garage.

Once EVs become more popular and it starts to be an issue for people,
businesses and apartments will start installing level 2 charging. They won't
need to convert every spot, just enough to keep up with demand.

In California a law requires apartments and condos to allow a resident to pay
to have a charger installed. At least that's a start.

In the UK many dwellings have no (zero) allocated parking.
Residents have to take pot luck finding somewhere, anywhere,
on the streets.

In the UK many cities refuse to grant planning permission
for offices with adequate numbers of parking spaces. They
know the roads don't have the capacity and want to force
use of public transport.

Well that's even better! It's really easy to charge an EV if you don't drive it. Great!

--

Rick C.

+--- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+--- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Rick C]

On Sunday, June 16, 2019 at 4:42:22 PM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:

On 16/06/19 20:01, Rick C wrote:
On Sunday, June 16, 2019 at 10:34:42 AM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 16/06/19 09:53, Rick C wrote:
On Sunday, June 16, 2019 at 4:18:06 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
On 15/06/2019 21:05, Rick C wrote:
I'm being told EV charging will be a lot more difficult in the UK
than it is here in the US.

I looked at the typical daily cycle and they have some 10 to 20 GW
between the peak and minimum each day with resonably flat consumption
in the trough. That will allow off peak charging of a third of the
30 million vehicles for 50 miles.

The problem is that charging parked cars during the day will coincide
with peak industrial demand and supply is already so tight during
winter that they have had to pay major industrial users to drop off to
avoid rolling blackouts. Prevarication over new nuclear build hasn't
helped.

What will allow charging during the day is increased electric production
from renewable sources. Solar is getting cheap enough that it is
profitable to install it on a mass scale... although may not so much in
the UK which is more northern than anyplace in our lower 48. But it
won't be long before that is true in the UK as well. Please don't go off
about cloudy days and such since EVs don't need charging every day for
most people and solar still produces reduced amounts of energy even on
cloudy days.

Cloudy days are a noticeable problem.

Short days are even more of a problem.

Are you saying there won't be viable solar generation in the UK? Your
comments are a bit like Larkin's and Trump's, saying something without saying
anything.

Define "viable".

Sufficient for all the purposes you imagine, e.g. charging
EVs overnight in winter in Scotland - no.

Why do you single out Scotland??? The discussion is the UK. There are a number of solar farms in the UK right now. Should they be torn down?

For solid physics/chemistry with solid numbers and
without meaningless adjectives, see the resource
lauded by *everybody* from The Greens to Big Oil:
http://withouthotair.com/

MacKay includes several options for the UK future,
without preferring any. But he does insist on solid
science and that the arithmetic adds up.

I tried to read the synopsis, but it is so full of verbiage and unrelated side trips I couldn't find the meat. Care to tell me what he is saying? I was looking at the 19 page summary. I guess he is selling a book.

So some charging will be supportable in the day time with out impact.
Just give it a few more years. From what I'm hearing EVs aren't very
popular in the UK for now anyway.


Charging overnight would work but then the generating capacity would
have to run flat out on a continuous basis.

And that is a good thing. The UK has gotten themselves in a bind by not
expanding their capacity enough.

Yup. We have <5% excess generating capacity, so if two major plants go
offline unexpectedly, there will be problems. And engineers in the
generating industry know that, but they don't control the finance and
don't control the politics of NIMBYism.

None of that makes night time charging of EVs impractical. In fact night
charging of EVs improves utilization and provides more profits to plow into
building infrastructure.

You continue to ignore the parlous state of our electricity industry.

Above you talk about "solid physics/chemistry with solid numbers and without meaningless adjectives", then say stuff like this. "Parlous state"...

I have explained what I am talking about. I have explained the one part of your grid I am concerned about. You don't discuss this, you just complain I am ignoring stuff.

So they will certainly be doing something about that. In the mean time
night time charging won't come anywhere near capacity for likely some 10
years or more. If the UK can't figure it out by then, well... there's no
hope for them.

Yup, it is beginning to feel that way.

It breaks my heart, but I've advised my daughter to try to find a way to
emigrate.

Really? I like what I've seen of the UK (TV mostly). It's not like you are
only growing potatoes.

Why am I not surprised that your impression of the UK is
formed from watching TV programmes.

Come here, open your eyes.

I would, but if everyone there is like you I wouldn't learn anything because they don't actually say anything.

But I'm being told there are two problems with that. One is that
distribution is sized for an average of 2 kW consumption per
household in many older areas (which they seem to have a lot of).
This clearly makes it hard to charge EVs overnight at just 3 kW which
otherwise would be fine for a typical user. In this case it would
require replacement of a lot of distribution cabling.

The distribution isn't quite that bad. It can cope with the likes of
3kW kettle loads on almost simultaneously in 80% of households when
there is a major football final on at half time or a wimbledon final
ends. But they have to prepare for it.

What does that mean, "they have to prepare for it"? What can you do to
beef up distribution capability? The problem isn't generation or
transmission typically. It's the local residential distribution.

Actually, this may not be an issue in the UK at all. In many parts of
the US we use heat pumps. The distribution can handle 10-15-20 kW
furnaces kicking on all night when the weather gets too cold for the heat
pump to work. My concern has been that a 7 kW *continuous* load will be
added in a significant portion of homes without coordination of timing.

My understanding is that the UK doesn't use heat pumps with electric back
up.

Correct. Residential premises don't use heat pumps running in either
direction.


The total demand is lowest at night, but what about residential demand,
does that go up significantly on winter nights?
Yes it does go up in winter. You can see the last annual graph at
http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/ but bear in mind that last winter was
notably mild. Cold winters are much worse.

I would be looking for a daily graph from the winter, not the winter average.
Here...

https://energymag.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/daily-demand-copyright-2011-national-grid-plc-all-rights-reserved.jpg

Not a large increase from summer to winter, but a more significant evening
peak. Night charging of EVs should not be started before 8 or 9 PM.

Correct, since last winter was noticeably mild - as I
clearly stated.

There is more difference in normal winters, and
the difference should be understood in the context
of <5% energy generation margin.

How does that have anything to do with EV charging? EVs won't utilize the full excess capacity until around a third of your cars are EVs. So why are you harping on this so much? It looks like the UK won't reach this point for many years. If the UK can't build new generating capacity there is a much bigger problem than EV charging. The UK will go down!

The big problem is that there is nothing like enough electricity
generating capacity to provide all the extra power needed.

Bzzzz! Sorry, you lose. But please play again. You should have been
listening rather than playing those old 78 rpm records in your head.
Excess, idle capacity at night can very adequately charge enough EVs to
be a third of your entire fleet of vehicles. That won't be fully
utilized for some years to come.

Scandalously, we have <5% excess generating capacity.


I'm also being told it will be a huge problem to provide enough
charging capability for the many potential EV owners who park on the
street or in public facilities. I expect it is practical to install
curb side and parking lot outlets with some outlay which is small, in
fact tiny compared to the cost of a car. But I kinda have to take
them at their word for that one.

Street parking will be the killer for electric vehicles in the UK.
Imagine how bad it would be with trailing cables running across the
pavement (footpath) every car length in a country where people do still
routinely walk between nearby locations. This is a daytime google
street view - you have to imagine it with a solid wall of cars parked
on either side of the street and with no preference as to where you
park.

Yes, for this to work outlets will be needed at the curb. Not an
insurmountable obstacle.

Insurmountable? No.

Very significant to the point of being impractical, yes.

Why exactly??? Everyone says this because they can't picture it. But they
aren't looking at any real info, just picturing crews digging up streets and
sidewalks with chaos and terror reigning. A charge point would be $1000 or
maybe as low as $500 per when done in mass. I'm talking about a 13 amp
connection. I guess a credit card reader would be needed, so a smart unit
rather than a dumb outlet and $1000 per. So how much is a car? $30,000,
$40,000? A one time cost of $1,000 seems small in that context, no?

Come here and have a look; see for yourself.

You seem to be basing your understanding of the UK on
TV programmes. What would you think of someone that
based their understanding of the US on Baywatch and
Midsummer Murders and NCIS and The Wire and The West
Wing?

What are you talking about? I was talking about the cost of electric outlet installations and you segway to TV shows.

But gauging from the seemingly unremitting resistance I encountered in
the UK group I was discussing this with, there won't be much progress any
time soon on this matter.

Correct.


Although, I see about half these cars are in driveways. Install an
outside outlet or two on each of these homes and you are halfway there to
charging at home!

Not in my road, not in many roads.

Ok, when you guys want to catch up, let us know. The US is pretty good at
helping third world countries... ;-) Just kidding.

In some respects the US is a third world country. Just kidding.

Lol! You have to admit if you are so close to your grid collapsing and everyone knows about it, but no one can do anything about it, I think that's pretty much a third world country. This is what you seem to be telling me. Is the UK really that helpless?

--

Rick C.

-+++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[John Rumm]

On 16/06/2019 17:41, Winfield Hill wrote:

John Rumm wrote...

Street charging is a more difficult problem to solve...

I can charge on the street, if I can park within two
car spots of my driveway. Apartment dwellers in a
crowded city have a problem. Several are like that
here at work, but they can charge up in our garage.

Its the transition that will probably be most problematic where only
some on street parking spots have access to a charger, and lots of those
get blocked by IC engine cars.


--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 16/06/19 23:07, Rick C wrote:

On Sunday, June 16, 2019 at 5:16:04 PM UTC-4, Rodney Pont wrote:
On Sun, 16 Jun 2019 10:30:45 -0700 (PDT), Rick C wrote:

I suggested in a Tesla forum that we could have a distribution capacity
problem here in the US but many people didn't understand the difference
between generation and distribution. Some others insisted there is
adequate reserve capacity, unlike in the UK. So maybe both are right.
It's a problem there that will require digging up streets to install
higher capacity distribution and no problem at all here in the US.

I think just about all properties in the UK can easily manage 2-3 kw for
car charging but the problem will be a distribution one. There was a gas
outage in a small Yorkshire village a few years ago and the gas company
gave everyone an electric fan heater. When the evening came and they were
all turned on the grid went off due to local overloading. I think they
brought in a diesel generator until the gas leak was fixed.

You also can't run a mains cable over a public footpath to charge your car
in the road. People with drives will be ok but a lot of homes do not have
drives or some form of off road parking.

Maybe my posts aren't being seen.

Maybe the UK and Europe isn't being seen - from the US.

 

[Brian Gaff]

I'm a little worried about charging devices on lamp posts. With the idiots
we have, I'd fully expect these to be vandalised in short order.
Brian

--
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This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
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"Winfield Hill" <winfieldhill@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:qe5fj901gvr@drn.newsguy.com...

Cursitor Doom wrote...


Rather than have guessing games among Americans as to
what the situation in the UK is, just ask the Brits direct!

Well, R.C. was told, so we'll just have to leave it at that.


--
Thanks,
- Win

 

On Sun, 16 Jun 2019 09:58:55 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
<curd@notformail.com> wrote:

On Sat, 15 Jun 2019 20:50:29 -0700, Rick C wrote:

I have to acknowledge that if this 2 kW number is correct and a large
fraction of homes in the UK receive such meager distribution, home EV
charging of any significant fraction of the cars would be impossible.
Otherwise adding a simple 13 amp outlet accessible to the EV would
suffice for charging up to 150 miles per night or more.

The maximum draw per single domestic socket outlet is 13A. HOWEVER, most
homes can legitimately have up to 60A -100A by taking a dedicated spur
off the house's consumer unit/distribution board. The general limit per
domestic installation is limited by the power co's fuse which is
generally 100A maximum. I'm sure that's plenty for even an American. ;-)

I have two 150A entrance panels/breakers. ;-)

No one in the right mind would attempt to charge an EV from a 13A socket
(unless time was not a consideration.) ;-)

No one in their right mind would own an EV, so charging isn't a
problem.

 

On Sun, 16 Jun 2019 16:42:08 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
<curd@notformail.com> wrote:

On Sun, 16 Jun 2019 16:22:53 +0000, Jan Panteltje wrote:

OK, but 230 V light bulbs last shorter...
Are you saying light bulbs in UK are 240V?
Yes LEDs too, see my previous test with those.

LEDs *can* be run directly off 240V in the UK, but their service life
will be shorter.

Why? The power should be the same given any sane design.

 

[Cursitor Doom]

On Sun, 16 Jun 2019 14:32:50 -0700, Rick C wrote:

> They sell the model 3 pretty inexpensively.

Perhaps that's why the company has just turned in a $700m loss for the
first quarter of this year. Any fool can sell cheap cars at a loss until
they go broke!
All the major investment sites agree Tesla is deep in the shit with no
easy answers as to how to get out of it.




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This message may be freely reproduced without limit or charge only via
the Usenet protocol. Reproduction in whole or part through other
protocols, whether for profit or not, is conditional upon a charge of
GBP10.00 per reproduction. Publication in this manner via non-Usenet
protocols constitutes acceptance of this condition.

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 16/06/19 23:02, Rick C wrote:

On Sunday, June 16, 2019 at 4:42:22 PM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 16/06/19 20:01, Rick C wrote:
On Sunday, June 16, 2019 at 10:34:42 AM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 16/06/19 09:53, Rick C wrote:
On Sunday, June 16, 2019 at 4:18:06 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:
On 15/06/2019 21:05, Rick C wrote:
I'm being told EV charging will be a lot more difficult in the
UK than it is here in the US.

I looked at the typical daily cycle and they have some 10 to 20
GW between the peak and minimum each day with resonably flat
consumption in the trough. That will allow off peak charging of
a third of the 30 million vehicles for 50 miles.

The problem is that charging parked cars during the day will
coincide with peak industrial demand and supply is already so tight
during winter that they have had to pay major industrial users to
drop off to avoid rolling blackouts. Prevarication over new nuclear
build hasn't helped.

What will allow charging during the day is increased electric
production from renewable sources. Solar is getting cheap enough
that it is profitable to install it on a mass scale... although may
not so much in the UK which is more northern than anyplace in our
lower 48. But it won't be long before that is true in the UK as
well. Please don't go off about cloudy days and such since EVs don't
need charging every day for most people and solar still produces
reduced amounts of energy even on cloudy days.

Cloudy days are a noticeable problem.

Short days are even more of a problem.

Are you saying there won't be viable solar generation in the UK? Your
comments are a bit like Larkin's and Trump's, saying something without
saying anything.

Define "viable".

Sufficient for all the purposes you imagine, e.g. charging EVs overnight in
winter in Scotland - no.

Why do you single out Scotland??? The discussion is the UK. There are a
number of solar farms in the UK right now. Should they be torn down?

Don't be obtuse.

Why are you ignoring a large part of the UK? Perhaps
because it is inconvenient to your predefined unchanging
position?

For solid physics/chemistry with solid numbers and without meaningless
adjectives, see the resource lauded by *everybody* from The Greens to Big
Oil: http://withouthotair.com/

MacKay includes several options for the UK future, without preferring any.
But he does insist on solid science and that the arithmetic adds up.

I tried to read the synopsis, but it is so full of verbiage and unrelated
side trips I couldn't find the meat. Care to tell me what he is saying? I
was looking at the 19 page summary.

Oh dear. You want a complex subject reduced to a sound
bite. Sorry, the world isn't like that, and MacKay is
deliberately non-dogmatic.

From http://withouthotair.com/c27/page_203.shtml

"If we are to get off our current fossil fuel addiction
we need a plan for radical action. And the plan needs to
add up. The plan also needs a political and financial
roadmap. Politics and economics are not part of this
book’s brief, so here I will simply discuss what the
technical side of a plan that adds up might look like.

There are many plans that add up. In this chapter I
will describe five. Please don’t take any of the plans
I present as “the author’s recommended solution.”
My sole recommendation is this:
Make sure your policies include a plan that adds up!

Note *five* alternatives, with plenty of room for
juggling them according to preference.


> I guess he is selling a book.

No. He gave the book away for free, right from the start.

His objectives and motivation are clearly stated, for
those that can read.

So some charging will be supportable in the day time with out
impact. Just give it a few more years. From what I'm hearing EVs
aren't very popular in the UK for now anyway.


Charging overnight would work but then the generating capacity
would have to run flat out on a continuous basis.

And that is a good thing. The UK has gotten themselves in a bind by
not expanding their capacity enough.

Yup. We have <5% excess generating capacity, so if two major plants go
offline unexpectedly, there will be problems. And engineers in the
generating industry know that, but they don't control the finance and
don't control the politics of NIMBYism.

None of that makes night time charging of EVs impractical. In fact
night charging of EVs improves utilization and provides more profits to
plow into building infrastructure.

You continue to ignore the parlous state of our electricity industry.

Above you talk about "solid physics/chemistry with solid numbers and without
meaningless adjectives", then say stuff like this. "Parlous state"...

You are reading faster than you comprehend. I suggest
you take a stress pill.

I have explained what I am talking about. I have explained the one part of
your grid I am concerned about. You don't discuss this, you just complain I
am ignoring stuff.

That's because you are ignoring stuff. Your mind is fixed on
a single track, and deviations are not to be contemplated.

So they will certainly be doing something about that. In the mean
time night time charging won't come anywhere near capacity for likely
some 10 years or more. If the UK can't figure it out by then,
well... there's no hope for them.

Yup, it is beginning to feel that way.

It breaks my heart, but I've advised my daughter to try to find a way
to emigrate.

Really? I like what I've seen of the UK (TV mostly). It's not like you
are only growing potatoes.

Why am I not surprised that your impression of the UK is formed from
watching TV programmes.

Come here, open your eyes.

I would, but if everyone there is like you I wouldn't learn anything because
they don't actually say anything.

Now you are being silly, and demonstrating that your mind
is made up and unchangeable. Too much of the USA is like
that ATM, as exemplified by Trump.

But I'm being told there are two problems with that. One is
that distribution is sized for an average of 2 kW consumption
per household in many older areas (which they seem to have a lot
of). This clearly makes it hard to charge EVs overnight at just 3
kW which otherwise would be fine for a typical user. In this
case it would require replacement of a lot of distribution
cabling.

The distribution isn't quite that bad. It can cope with the likes
of 3kW kettle loads on almost simultaneously in 80% of households
when there is a major football final on at half time or a wimbledon
final ends. But they have to prepare for it.

What does that mean, "they have to prepare for it"? What can you do
to beef up distribution capability? The problem isn't generation or
transmission typically. It's the local residential distribution.

Actually, this may not be an issue in the UK at all. In many parts
of the US we use heat pumps. The distribution can handle 10-15-20
kW furnaces kicking on all night when the weather gets too cold for
the heat pump to work. My concern has been that a 7 kW *continuous*
load will be added in a significant portion of homes without
coordination of timing.

My understanding is that the UK doesn't use heat pumps with electric
back up.

Correct. Residential premises don't use heat pumps running in either
direction.


The total demand is lowest at night, but what about residential
demand, does that go up significantly on winter nights?
Yes it does go up in winter. You can see the last annual graph at
http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/ but bear in mind that last winter
was notably mild. Cold winters are much worse.

I would be looking for a daily graph from the winter, not the winter
average. Here...

https://energymag.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/daily-demand-copyright-2011-national-grid-plc-all-rights-reserved.jpg



Not a large increase from summer to winter, but a more significant evening
peak. Night charging of EVs should not be started before 8 or 9 PM.

Correct, since last winter was noticeably mild - as I clearly stated.

There is more difference in normal winters, and the difference should be
understood in the context of <5% energy generation margin.

How does that have anything to do with EV charging? EVs won't utilize the
full excess capacity until around a third of your cars are EVs. So why are
you harping on this so much? It looks like the UK won't reach this point for
many years. If the UK can't build new generating capacity there is a much
bigger problem than EV charging. The UK will go down!

Correct, it is a much larger problem than EV charging.

But EV charging would push it over the edge when
wind/solar aren't online.

The big problem is that there is nothing like enough electricity
generating capacity to provide all the extra power needed.

Bzzzz! Sorry, you lose. But please play again. You should have
been listening rather than playing those old 78 rpm records in your
head. Excess, idle capacity at night can very adequately charge
enough EVs to be a third of your entire fleet of vehicles. That
won't be fully utilized for some years to come.

Scandalously, we have <5% excess generating capacity.


I'm also being told it will be a huge problem to provide enough
charging capability for the many potential EV owners who park on
the street or in public facilities. I expect it is practical to
install curb side and parking lot outlets with some outlay which
is small, in fact tiny compared to the cost of a car. But I
kinda have to take them at their word for that one.

Street parking will be the killer for electric vehicles in the UK.
Imagine how bad it would be with trailing cables running across
the pavement (footpath) every car length in a country where people
do still routinely walk between nearby locations. This is a daytime
google street view - you have to imagine it with a solid wall of
cars parked on either side of the street and with no preference as
to where you park.

Yes, for this to work outlets will be needed at the curb. Not an
insurmountable obstacle.

Insurmountable? No.

Very significant to the point of being impractical, yes.

Why exactly??? Everyone says this because they can't picture it. But
they aren't looking at any real info, just picturing crews digging up
streets and sidewalks with chaos and terror reigning. A charge point
would be $1000 or maybe as low as $500 per when done in mass. I'm
talking about a 13 amp connection. I guess a credit card reader would be
needed, so a smart unit rather than a dumb outlet and $1000 per. So how
much is a car? $30,000, $40,000? A one time cost of $1,000 seems small
in that context, no?

Come here and have a look; see for yourself.

You seem to be basing your understanding of the UK on TV programmes. What
would you think of someone that based their understanding of the US on
Baywatch and Midsummer Murders and NCIS and The Wire and The West Wing?

What are you talking about? I was talking about the cost of electric outlet
installations and you segway to TV shows.

You stated "I like what I've seen of the UK (TV mostly)" - see above.

It is therefore necessary to bring it to your attention
that your understanding of the UK is faulty. That concept
won't surprise anybody else.

But gauging from the seemingly unremitting resistance I encountered
in the UK group I was discussing this with, there won't be much
progress any time soon on this matter.

Correct.


Although, I see about half these cars are in driveways. Install an
outside outlet or two on each of these homes and you are halfway
there to charging at home!

Not in my road, not in many roads.

Ok, when you guys want to catch up, let us know. The US is pretty good
at helping third world countries... ;-) Just kidding.

In some respects the US is a third world country. Just kidding.

Lol! You have to admit if you are so close to your grid collapsing and
everyone knows about it, but no one can do anything about it, I think that's
pretty much a third world country. This is what you seem to be telling me.
Is the UK really that helpless?

Especially at the moment, paralysed by Brexit, yes.

The current UK political scene is as broken as that
in Weimar Republic in the 30s, and didn't that end well.