EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being te

[Mayayana]

| The Justice Department reached an agreement
| with GM over the faulty ignition switches. Prosecution
| is deferred and the GM execs promise to be goodie two
| shoes. http://preview.alturl.com/ctzff Over 100
| people died.
| I don't think Jeff Foxworthy or Larry the Cable Guy
| are running the Justice Department.
|

I'd forgotten about the GM issue. It's hardly
surprising these things happen when the executives
in charge have no liability. Even the companies
often find the deals to be profitable. If a company
cuts corners to save $100 million and gets fined
$20 million, with no arrests, then that seems to be
a good business plan.

 

[Winston_Smith]

On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 20:12:41 -0500, Vic Smith wrote:

The most important thing here is that puts an end to those incessant
and tasteless TDI ads on TV, with those offensive dirty old women.
Good

Apparently VW yanked *all* those youtube ads, completely.
Amazing how quickly that marketing team can move!

 

[Winston_Smith]

On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 19:52:57 -0600, Tony Hwang wrote:

> VW chief said, "we screwed up" So they intentionally cheated.

Actually, the USA chief said "we screwed up".
The Germany chief is just "endlessly sorry".

 

[Mayayana]

| Arrests will do nothing.

I don't see how you can look at it that way. If
executives were held crimially liable for corporate
law breaking then very little of it would happen.
It's the difference between *maybe* risking their
bonus and definitely risking years in jail.
As long as the corporation is treated as an able,
non-human party, and punished financially, that's
an implicit statement that we as a society recognize
no legal or ethical requirements for people doing
business.

 

[Winston_Smith]

On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 21:13:49 -0500, Vic Smith wrote:

When the congressional Benghazi committee wraps it up in the next
10-12 years, they should take this up.
They'll get to the bottom of it.

I realize some things are "political", but is *this* issue really a
"congressional" issue?

Isn't it simply that CARB & the EPA have procedures which are backed up
by force of law (admittedly, made by Congress), which VW broke?

 

[Winston_Smith]

On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 22:19:48 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

I cannot imagine a big corporation intentionally doing something like
that and figure they would not get caught. Too many people work on
projects like that and superiors have to sign off. The cost t fix it is
in the billions and for what?

I wonder, out loud, how many people inside of VW knew about this?

Do you think it was a small cadre?
Or basically everyone?

 

[Tom Miller]

"Mayayana" <mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote in message
news:mtskpo$9vn$1@dont-email.me...

| Arrests will do nothing.

I don't see how you can look at it that way. If
executives were held crimially liable for corporate
law breaking then very little of it would happen.
It's the difference between *maybe* risking their
bonus and definitely risking years in jail.
As long as the corporation is treated as an able,
non-human party, and punished financially, that's
an implicit statement that we as a society recognize
no legal or ethical requirements for people doing
business.

Murder is illegal but people still do it.

 

[Dean Hoffman]

On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 17:32:46 -0500, Mayayana <mayayana@invalid.nospam>
wrote:

| The Justice Department reached an agreement
| with GM over the faulty ignition switches. Prosecution
| is deferred and the GM execs promise to be goodie two
| shoes. http://preview.alturl.com/ctzff Over 100
| people died.
| I don't think Jeff Foxworthy or Larry the Cable Guy
| are running the Justice Department.
|

I'd forgotten about the GM issue. It's hardly
surprising these things happen when the executives
in charge have no liability. Even the companies
often find the deals to be profitable. If a company
cuts corners to save $100 million and gets fined
$20 million, with no arrests, then that seems to be
a good business plan.

My dad had a 1976 Chevy pickup. It was one of those
with the gas tank outside of the rails. GM was supposed to
allow an extra $1000 as trade in value as part of a settlement
with the government. That deal smelled bad from the
beginning.


--
Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

 

[Don Wiss]

On 9/18/2015 8:19 PM, Ewald Böhm asked:
> My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions?

From the NY Times: "The software could silently deduce that an inspection
was taking place based on the position of the steering wheel (cars hooked
up to emissions meters don’t make turns), the speed of the vehicle, how
long the engine had been running and barometric pressure."

Don. www.donwiss.com (e-mail link at home page bottom).

 

[Vic Smith]

On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 00:19:10 +0000 (UTC), Ewald BĂśhm
<ewvesb@gilltaylor.ca> wrote:

Apparently Volkswagen/Audi cheated on the USA emissions tests since
2009 to 2015 by turning off the EGR to lower nitrogen oxide emissions
ONLY when the car was being tested for emissions.

REFERENCES:
http://blog.ucsusa.org/volkswagen-caught-cheating-vehicle-recall-887
http://www.engineering.com/AdvancedManufacturing/ArticleID/10688/VW-Caught-Cheating-on-EPA-Tests.aspx
http://hothardware.com/news/vw-intentionally-programmed-engine-software-to-cheat-emissions-tests-forced-by-epa-to-recall-482k-vehicles
etc.

My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions?

The most important thing here is that puts an end to those incessant
and tasteless TDI ads on TV, with those offensive dirty old women.
Good.

 

[Bob F]

Bob F wrote:

NoSpamForMe wrote:
On 9/18/2015 8:19 PM, Ewald Böhm wrote:
Apparently Volkswagen/Audi cheated on the USA emissions tests since
2009 to 2015 by turning off the EGR to lower nitrogen oxide
emissions ONLY when the car was being tested for emissions.

REFERENCES:
http://blog.ucsusa.org/volkswagen-caught-cheating-vehicle-recall-887
http://www.engineering.com/AdvancedManufacturing/ArticleID/10688/VW-Caught-Cheating-on-EPA-Tests.aspx
http://hothardware.com/news/vw-intentionally-programmed-engine-software-to-cheat-emissions-tests-forced-by-epa-to-recall-482k-vehicles
etc.

My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for
emissions?

It seems like everyone here is on a VW witch hunt.
I would expect VW to program it's black boxes to use the minimum fuel
for a given situation. If the car is on a dyno, there would be no
wind resistance to push
against so the fuel system *should* lower the fuel flow. I'd expect
the same behavior if I was rolling down a mountain grade. Sheeeesh!

Wow! Cluelessness at it's best!

Update 9/22: This morning VW announced that the cheating issue on diesel engines
is much more vast than initially expected. The company admitted to cheating on
11 million diesel engines worldwide.

 

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 9/22/2015 8:15 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:

My dad had a 1976 Chevy pickup. It was one of those
with the gas tank outside of the rails. GM was supposed to
allow an extra $1000 as trade in value as part of a settlement
with the government. That deal smelled bad from the
beginning.

GM's answer to any problem was always to buy a new one. I no longer
drive GM cars and the associated problems.

 

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 9/22/2015 9:52 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:

There may be others cheating too, just not caught yet.
Big corp. mentality like VW cheating. They should be fined $$$
as an example and top guy should do some jail time as well.
VW chief said, "we screwed up" So they intentionally cheated.

I cannot imagine a big corporation intentionally doing something like
that and figure they would not get caught. Too many people work on
projects like that and superiors have to sign off. The cost t fix it is
in the billions and for what?

 

[Vic Smith]

On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 19:52:57 -0600, Tony Hwang <dragon40@shaw.ca>
wrote:

Vic Smith wrote:
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 00:19:10 +0000 (UTC), Ewald BĂśhm
ewvesb@gilltaylor.ca> wrote:

Apparently Volkswagen/Audi cheated on the USA emissions tests since
2009 to 2015 by turning off the EGR to lower nitrogen oxide emissions
ONLY when the car was being tested for emissions.

REFERENCES:
http://blog.ucsusa.org/volkswagen-caught-cheating-vehicle-recall-887
http://www.engineering.com/AdvancedManufacturing/ArticleID/10688/VW-Caught-Cheating-on-EPA-Tests.aspx
http://hothardware.com/news/vw-intentionally-programmed-engine-software-to-cheat-emissions-tests-forced-by-epa-to-recall-482k-vehicles
etc.

My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions?

The most important thing here is that puts an end to those incessant
and tasteless TDI ads on TV, with those offensive dirty old women.
Good.

There may be others cheating too, just not caught yet.
Big corp. mentality like VW cheating. They should be fined $$$
as an example and top guy should do some jail time as well.
VW chief said, "we screwed up" So they intentionally cheated.

Yeah, those disgusting ads on TV should have been a clue that VW was
an immoral company. A thorough investigation is necessary.
When the congressional Benghazi committee wraps it up in the next
10-12 years, they should take this up.
They'll get to the bottom of it.

 

[Tony Hwang]

Vic Smith wrote:

On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 00:19:10 +0000 (UTC), Ewald BĂśhm
ewvesb@gilltaylor.ca> wrote:

Apparently Volkswagen/Audi cheated on the USA emissions tests since
2009 to 2015 by turning off the EGR to lower nitrogen oxide emissions
ONLY when the car was being tested for emissions.

REFERENCES:
http://blog.ucsusa.org/volkswagen-caught-cheating-vehicle-recall-887
http://www.engineering.com/AdvancedManufacturing/ArticleID/10688/VW-Caught-Cheating-on-EPA-Tests.aspx
http://hothardware.com/news/vw-intentionally-programmed-engine-software-to-cheat-emissions-tests-forced-by-epa-to-recall-482k-vehicles
etc.

My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions?

The most important thing here is that puts an end to those incessant
and tasteless TDI ads on TV, with those offensive dirty old women.
Good.

There may be others cheating too, just not caught yet.
Big corp. mentality like VW cheating. They should be fined $$$
as an example and top guy should do some jail time as well.
VW chief said, "we screwed up" So they intentionally cheated.

 

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 9/22/2015 10:38 PM, Winston_Smith wrote:

On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 22:19:48 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

I cannot imagine a big corporation intentionally doing something like
that and figure they would not get caught. Too many people work on
projects like that and superiors have to sign off. The cost t fix it is
in the billions and for what?

I wonder, out loud, how many people inside of VW knew about this?

Do you think it was a small cadre?
Or basically everyone?

In a corporation that size, even a small cadre could have been 20 to 50
engineers. Someone had to come up with the idea, design, build, test,
and approve everything. The guys on the line installing would probably
have no idea, just another part. Higher level in engineering would know.

 

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 9/23/2015 12:56 AM, Bob F wrote:

Murder is illegal but people still do it.

But the possibilty of real prison time will make them think before doing the
crime.

But most criminals think they will never be caught so prison is little
deterrent.

 

[Tony Hwang]

Bob F wrote:

Bob F wrote:
NoSpamForMe wrote:
On 9/18/2015 8:19 PM, Ewald Böhm wrote:
Apparently Volkswagen/Audi cheated on the USA emissions tests since
2009 to 2015 by turning off the EGR to lower nitrogen oxide
emissions ONLY when the car was being tested for emissions.

REFERENCES:
http://blog.ucsusa.org/volkswagen-caught-cheating-vehicle-recall-887
http://www.engineering.com/AdvancedManufacturing/ArticleID/10688/VW-Caught-Cheating-on-EPA-Tests.aspx
http://hothardware.com/news/vw-intentionally-programmed-engine-software-to-cheat-emissions-tests-forced-by-epa-to-recall-482k-vehicles
etc.

My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for
emissions?

It seems like everyone here is on a VW witch hunt.
I would expect VW to program it's black boxes to use the minimum fuel
for a given situation. If the car is on a dyno, there would be no
wind resistance to push
against so the fuel system *should* lower the fuel flow. I'd expect
the same behavior if I was rolling down a mountain grade. Sheeeesh!

Wow! Cluelessness at it's best!

Update 9/22: This morning VW announced that the cheating issue on diesel engines
is much more vast than initially expected. The company admitted to cheating on
11 million diesel engines worldwide.

Wonder about MB and BMW Diesel vehicles. I was looking at MB GLK-250
Diesel version when news broke out. Considering Diesel vehicle for next
new car purchase is on hold now. Also I am wondering about turbo charged
small engines on almost every cars, Ecoboost, Skyactive...,etc. Crap.

 

[Bob F]

NoSpamForMe wrote:

On 9/18/2015 8:19 PM, Ewald Böhm wrote:
Apparently Volkswagen/Audi cheated on the USA emissions tests since
2009 to 2015 by turning off the EGR to lower nitrogen oxide emissions
ONLY when the car was being tested for emissions.

REFERENCES:
http://blog.ucsusa.org/volkswagen-caught-cheating-vehicle-recall-887
http://www.engineering.com/AdvancedManufacturing/ArticleID/10688/VW-Caught-Cheating-on-EPA-Tests.aspx
http://hothardware.com/news/vw-intentionally-programmed-engine-software-to-cheat-emissions-tests-forced-by-epa-to-recall-482k-vehicles
etc.

My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for
emissions?

It seems like everyone here is on a VW witch hunt.
I would expect VW to program it's black boxes to use the minimum fuel
for a given situation. If the car is on a dyno, there would be no wind
resistance to push
against so the fuel system *should* lower the fuel flow. I'd expect
the same behavior if I was rolling down a mountain grade. Sheeeesh!

Wow! Cluelessness at it's best!

 

[Bob F]

etpm@whidbey.com wrote:

On Mon, 21 Sep 2015 09:43:43 -0700, "Bob F" <bobnospam@gmail.com
wrote:

etpm@whidbey.com wrote:
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 12:08:40 -0700, "Bob F" <bobnospam@gmail.com
wrote:

Steve W. wrote:
. wrote:
On 9/19/2015 11:12 AM, Steve W. wrote:
Sure will. You have to enter the VIN into the system to start
the inspection. IF the EPA requires a recall to reflash the ECM
to remove that software and "correct" the problem, that would
have to be done at a dealer. They will track completed vehicles
by VIN. The
state can just flag ALL those vehicles. You pull in, they plug
in the tester, and your VIN doesn't show on the "recall
complete" list. You don't get inspected. That has happened
before for other recalls. I'm betting the fix
will be to re-flash the ECM software to remove the "switch".
Then run each one through the full EPA test regardless of
registration state. That because this if a federal law that was
broken.

What will be fun will be watching all the johnny racer types who
modified the cars by removing emissions gear and "tuning" the
ECM. VW could actually show them to the EPA and say "THEY
removed the systems so they should pay a fine as well".

When has the EPA ever gone after individual passenger car vehicle
owners?

Happens a lot more than you might think. States get into the act
under the umbrella of the EPA laws.


VW intentionally wrote software for their vehicles with the
express intent of violating the EPA laws. They admitted to that
already so it will be interesting to see what happens. The EPA
could recall the cars, judge them as "unrepairable gross
polluters" and have them crushed. I doubt they will go that far
but they have done it before under the "cars for cash" BS.

Or, the EPA could require that all the cheating cars be
re-programmed to meet requirements all the time, and owners could
sue VW's ass off for cheating them, since the resulting performance
will be terrible.

The cars should be re-programmed, at the expense of VW. And then a
lot of class action suits should be filed against VW. I suppose, to
be fair to the car buyers who did not knowingly participate in the
scam, there should be an option to have the new firmware installed.
If they get the new firmware then they get to sue. If not then they
would get no compensation because they have not suffered a loss.
ERS

No loss other than being unable to license their cars?

If they cannot license their cars without a firmware update then
they have suffered a loss and should of course be able to sue or
otherwise be remunerated. I was thinking about the car owners who live
in an area where cars are not smog checked. For example, I live in
Island County which is about 30 Miles from Seattle which is in King
County. This means I don't have to get my vehicles smog checked
whereas King County residents do. I don't know how CA does smog checks
but I suspect everyone who lives there has to get one. I can see that
I should have thought of that before I posted my comments.
I just heard on the news that there are about 450,000 vehicles in
the USA that have the dishonest firmware and that the EPA can fine VW
$37,500 for each car.
I find it amazing that so many people would participate in such a
dishonest act, and that it could remain secret for so long. All sorts
of folks, from the upper management to the software writers, had to
know about and agree to actively participate in the fraud. I can see
how some would do so because of greed. And others may have been afraid
of losing their jobs. But I would think that many would refuse to
commit fraud and that some of them would spill the beans. I guess I'm
naive.
Eric

I wouldn't be supprised to see the state refuse to re-license your car if the
resulting recalls are not implemented. VW has created an unusual opportunity for
punitive law enforcement activity. They deserve the maximum possible penalties.
In my opinion, purchaser lawsuits should be strongly pursued, to be added to the
maximum federal penalties allowable against VW. This kind of premeditated
violation is completely unacceptable.