B
Bob F
Guest
.. wrote:
Really!!
Really!!
Navigation
Install the app
How to install the app on iOS
Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.
More options
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
B
Bob F
Guest
Tom Miller wrote:
But the possibilty of real prison time will make them think before doing the
crime.
"Mayayana" <mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote in message
news:mtskpo$9vn$1@dont-email.me...
Arrests will do nothing.
I don't see how you can look at it that way. If
executives were held crimially liable for corporate
law breaking then very little of it would happen.
It's the difference between *maybe* risking their
bonus and definitely risking years in jail.
As long as the corporation is treated as an able,
non-human party, and punished financially, that's
an implicit statement that we as a society recognize
no legal or ethical requirements for people doing
business.
Murder is illegal but people still do it.
But the possibilty of real prison time will make them think before doing the
crime.
B
Bob F
Guest
Ed Pawlowski wrote:
And every one of them should experience serios prison time.
On 9/22/2015 10:38 PM, Winston_Smith wrote:
On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 22:19:48 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
I cannot imagine a big corporation intentionally doing something
like that and figure they would not get caught. Too many people
work on projects like that and superiors have to sign off. The
cost t fix it is in the billions and for what?
I wonder, out loud, how many people inside of VW knew about this?
Do you think it was a small cadre?
Or basically everyone?
In a corporation that size, even a small cadre could have been 20 to
50 engineers. Someone had to come up with the idea, design, build,
test, and approve everything. The guys on the line installing would
probably have no idea, just another part. Higher level in
engineering would know.
And every one of them should experience serios prison time.
V
Vic Smith
Guest
On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 02:37:55 +0000 (UTC), Winston_Smith
<invalid@butterfly.net> wrote:
That was tongue and cheek. But a congressional committee can
investigate a ham sandwich if they please.
<invalid@butterfly.net> wrote:
On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 21:13:49 -0500, Vic Smith wrote:
When the congressional Benghazi committee wraps it up in the next
10-12 years, they should take this up.
They'll get to the bottom of it.
I realize some things are "political", but is *this* issue really a
"congressional" issue?
Isn't it simply that CARB & the EPA have procedures which are backed up
by force of law (admittedly, made by Congress), which VW broke?
That was tongue and cheek. But a congressional committee can
investigate a ham sandwich if they please.
B
Bob F
Guest
Ed Pawlowski wrote:
We'll see what they think after a few hundred VW employees do some serious
prison time.
I bet white collar crime would be a lot more affected by serious prosecutions
than random murders. Maybe someday, we'll see it happen. This is not just a US
crime.
On 9/23/2015 12:56 AM, Bob F wrote:
Murder is illegal but people still do it.
But the possibilty of real prison time will make them think before
doing the crime.
But most criminals think they will never be caught so prison is little
deterrent.
We'll see what they think after a few hundred VW employees do some serious
prison time.
I bet white collar crime would be a lot more affected by serious prosecutions
than random murders. Maybe someday, we'll see it happen. This is not just a US
crime.
D
Dean Hoffman
Guest
Wonder about MB and BMW Diesel vehicles. I was looking at MB GLK-250
Diesel version when news broke out. Considering Diesel vehicle for next
new car purchase is on hold now. Also I am wondering about turbo charged
small engines on almost every cars, Ecoboost, Skyactive...,etc. Crap.
I had a Mazda MX6 with a turbo. One was supposed to let the engine
idle for a minute before shutting it off to let the turbo wind down.
There might've been some cooling also.
An oil reservoir above the turbo with a flow restrictor would've
eliminated that requirement but that would've cost the manufacturer
money.
--
Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
S
Scott Dorsey
Guest
Tony Hwang <dragon40@shaw.ca> wrote:
The MB and BMW diesels both use the exhaust fluid. That's not to say that
they aren't cheating something somewhere in the control system, just that
the main reason why VW cheated isn't an issue with the MB and BMW diesels.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Wonder about MB and BMW Diesel vehicles. I was looking at MB GLK-250
Diesel version when news broke out. Considering Diesel vehicle for next
new car purchase is on hold now. Also I am wondering about turbo charged
small engines on almost every cars, Ecoboost, Skyactive...,etc. Crap.
The MB and BMW diesels both use the exhaust fluid. That's not to say that
they aren't cheating something somewhere in the control system, just that
the main reason why VW cheated isn't an issue with the MB and BMW diesels.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
M
Mayayana
Guest
| Update 9/22: This morning VW announced that the cheating issue on diesel
engines
| is much more vast than initially expected. The company admitted to
cheating on
| 11 million diesel engines worldwide.
|
I saw the NYT version of that. It casts the whole
issue in a somewhat less extreme light. It turns out
most of the cars are in Europe, where despite
environmentalist idealism being high, regulations are
light and testing is limited.
So while their scam in the US seems to be pure idiocy,
in Europe it comes across as something less extreme.
A questionable way to increase gas mileage rather than
an outright lie and illegal deception. Contemptible, but
not necessarily guaranteed to be self-destructive, as it
seems in the US.
engines
| is much more vast than initially expected. The company admitted to
cheating on
| 11 million diesel engines worldwide.
|
I saw the NYT version of that. It casts the whole
issue in a somewhat less extreme light. It turns out
most of the cars are in Europe, where despite
environmentalist idealism being high, regulations are
light and testing is limited.
So while their scam in the US seems to be pure idiocy,
in Europe it comes across as something less extreme.
A questionable way to increase gas mileage rather than
an outright lie and illegal deception. Contemptible, but
not necessarily guaranteed to be self-destructive, as it
seems in the US.
S
Steve W.
Guest
Winston_Smith wrote:
Actually the fuel mapping would be the reverse of that. Running rich on
a diesel reduces NOx because the extra fuel cools the burn. Lean it out
and create more heat and you get higher NOx.
This is the reason why 99% of the VW owners bragged about getting better
mpg numbers than the EPA tests as well.
--
Steve W.
On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 14:22:22 -0700, Ashton Crusher wrote:
You would still need to measure actual
emissions to see if the car met the emissions requirements.
I think this makes sense.
The VW cheat code does NOT appear to do anything clever.
In the official EPA pdf letter to VW, they called it a "switch".
Basically, the cheat code determined that the car was not moving but
that it was running as if it was moving, so, under that circumstance
(i.e., under what the EPA called the "dynamometer" settings) VW
engineers simply reduced the fuel to the engine, which lowered the
NOx emissions.
Under all other circumstances, which the EPA called the "road" settings,
VW engineers let the car have as much fuel as it wanted, NOx emissions
be damned.
There was nothing sophisticated at all about it. It's like me stealing
money from my own relatives. It's easy to do because they leave their
wallet out on the kitchen table without checking.
The audacious part isn't how clever it was (it wasn't at all clever).
The audacious part is that we trusted them, just as you trust a house
guest, and they violated that trust, just as it would be as if a house
guest stole money out of your wallet.
Actually the fuel mapping would be the reverse of that. Running rich on
a diesel reduces NOx because the extra fuel cools the burn. Lean it out
and create more heat and you get higher NOx.
This is the reason why 99% of the VW owners bragged about getting better
mpg numbers than the EPA tests as well.
--
Steve W.
S
Steve W.
Guest
Bob F wrote:
Won't happen. I would bet there will be a software "patch" that will
erase the different testing maps, the cars will then meet the original
EPA standards BUT they won't be getting the high mpg numbers that owners
bragged about.
The folks who did modifications will likely refuse to bring their cars
in and the EPA will just issue a VIN list saying these cars are no
longer legal for road use in the US, registrations and insurance would
be revoked.
VW might just decide to leave the market in the US.
--
Steve W.
Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 9/23/2015 12:56 AM, Bob F wrote:
Murder is illegal but people still do it.
But the possibilty of real prison time will make them think before
doing the crime.
But most criminals think they will never be caught so prison is little
deterrent.
We'll see what they think after a few hundred VW employees do some serious
prison time.
I bet white collar crime would be a lot more affected by serious prosecutions
than random murders. Maybe someday, we'll see it happen. This is not just a US
crime.
Won't happen. I would bet there will be a software "patch" that will
erase the different testing maps, the cars will then meet the original
EPA standards BUT they won't be getting the high mpg numbers that owners
bragged about.
The folks who did modifications will likely refuse to bring their cars
in and the EPA will just issue a VIN list saying these cars are no
longer legal for road use in the US, registrations and insurance would
be revoked.
VW might just decide to leave the market in the US.
--
Steve W.
S
Steve W.
Guest
Ed Pawlowski wrote:
The only real change is in the code map in the ECM. They basically had a
"normal" map for constant driving and a "test map" that only engaged
when undergoing tests. I would bet it took fewer that 10 people to do
the entire thing.
You need to consider that the engineers already know how to make the
engine run and get good mileage and wrote the software to do that.
However that programming didn't pass the EPA testing.
The actual program change is easy. It could be hidden just about
anywhere but is likely very simple.
Something like
IF the engine is running at XXX rpm but there is a connector in the OBD
test port, with no input from the steering rack and the parking brake is
set, add 2% fuel enrichment to the drive cycle.
Extra fuel cools the fuel burn and drops the NOx to legal limits. Car
passes.
--
Steve W.
On 9/22/2015 10:38 PM, Winston_Smith wrote:
On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 22:19:48 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
I cannot imagine a big corporation intentionally doing something like
that and figure they would not get caught. Too many people work on
projects like that and superiors have to sign off. The cost t fix it is
in the billions and for what?
I wonder, out loud, how many people inside of VW knew about this?
Do you think it was a small cadre?
Or basically everyone?
In a corporation that size, even a small cadre could have been 20 to 50
engineers. Someone had to come up with the idea, design, build, test,
and approve everything. The guys on the line installing would probably
have no idea, just another part. Higher level in engineering would know.
The only real change is in the code map in the ECM. They basically had a
"normal" map for constant driving and a "test map" that only engaged
when undergoing tests. I would bet it took fewer that 10 people to do
the entire thing.
You need to consider that the engineers already know how to make the
engine run and get good mileage and wrote the software to do that.
However that programming didn't pass the EPA testing.
The actual program change is easy. It could be hidden just about
anywhere but is likely very simple.
Something like
IF the engine is running at XXX rpm but there is a connector in the OBD
test port, with no input from the steering rack and the parking brake is
set, add 2% fuel enrichment to the drive cycle.
Extra fuel cools the fuel burn and drops the NOx to legal limits. Car
passes.
--
Steve W.
M
Mayayana
Guest
| > But the possibilty of real prison time will make them think before doing
the
| > crime.
| But most criminals think they will never be caught so prison is little
| deterrent.
By that logic there is no role in society for
a criminal justice system. You paint it as
just black and white.
There's a far bigger group in between -- People
who will do immoral things only if they know there's no
risk and no one will see them. Those are two factors:
personal conscience and risk of suffering. Risk is also
related to one's position. A multi-millionaire executive
with a family has more to lose than most people.
Isn't public civility really a combination of personal
conscience and risk of punishment? That's why we
have locks on doors and windows. The doors can be
kicked in fairly easily. Windows can be broken. But the
need for force deters most people. They have to be
more aggressive and more intent on stealing in order
to break in. Most people will be stopped by their
conscience, their fear, their common sense strategy
to avoid suffering, or all those things, before breaking
into your house.
On the other hand, if you leave your laptop sitting
on your front steps, someone passing by doesn't
need to be aggressive or intrude. They can also
rationalize that maybe you meant to give it away.
A lot more people will take that laptop than will break
in to take it.
Much of what we do in shame we do with such a
rationalization. Our thinking mind lies to itself to
justify satisfying our impulse. Some people are better
at lying to themselves than other people. (Which is
the essence of true laziness.) But we all do it in
degrees. The less adept we are at lying to ourselves,
the less likely we are to do something we consider
wrong if there's a risk that someone else may bear
witness. We have to be lying to ourselves on the
level of psychosis to ignore the risk of punishment
or other ramifications.
The CEO of VW is so far refusing to acknowledge
guilt on his own part, but if he were risking jail time,
along with his sidekicks and yes-men, it's a good
bet the software cheat never would have happened.
He's almost certainly a man obsessed with wealth
and power to have got to where he is. Jail is the
opposite of that. He's almost certainly not fully
psychotic. He just imagines he's out to "win" at
something. That kind of obsession helps people to
lie to themselves. But it's likely that he wouldn't have
put his position at such risk if it meant risking all of
his chips for just a slightly bigger win. Even if he
doesn't feel shame, the threat of jail would probably
temper his obsession.
As things stand now, it's easy for the people at
the top to lie to themselves because the justice
system is pretending that the corporation itself --
a mere legal/financial/tax entity -- was the perpetrator
of the crime.
the
| > crime.
| But most criminals think they will never be caught so prison is little
| deterrent.
By that logic there is no role in society for
a criminal justice system. You paint it as
just black and white.
There's a far bigger group in between -- People
who will do immoral things only if they know there's no
risk and no one will see them. Those are two factors:
personal conscience and risk of suffering. Risk is also
related to one's position. A multi-millionaire executive
with a family has more to lose than most people.
Isn't public civility really a combination of personal
conscience and risk of punishment? That's why we
have locks on doors and windows. The doors can be
kicked in fairly easily. Windows can be broken. But the
need for force deters most people. They have to be
more aggressive and more intent on stealing in order
to break in. Most people will be stopped by their
conscience, their fear, their common sense strategy
to avoid suffering, or all those things, before breaking
into your house.
On the other hand, if you leave your laptop sitting
on your front steps, someone passing by doesn't
need to be aggressive or intrude. They can also
rationalize that maybe you meant to give it away.
A lot more people will take that laptop than will break
in to take it.
Much of what we do in shame we do with such a
rationalization. Our thinking mind lies to itself to
justify satisfying our impulse. Some people are better
at lying to themselves than other people. (Which is
the essence of true laziness.) But we all do it in
degrees. The less adept we are at lying to ourselves,
the less likely we are to do something we consider
wrong if there's a risk that someone else may bear
witness. We have to be lying to ourselves on the
level of psychosis to ignore the risk of punishment
or other ramifications.
The CEO of VW is so far refusing to acknowledge
guilt on his own part, but if he were risking jail time,
along with his sidekicks and yes-men, it's a good
bet the software cheat never would have happened.
He's almost certainly a man obsessed with wealth
and power to have got to where he is. Jail is the
opposite of that. He's almost certainly not fully
psychotic. He just imagines he's out to "win" at
something. That kind of obsession helps people to
lie to themselves. But it's likely that he wouldn't have
put his position at such risk if it meant risking all of
his chips for just a slightly bigger win. Even if he
doesn't feel shame, the threat of jail would probably
temper his obsession.
As things stand now, it's easy for the people at
the top to lie to themselves because the justice
system is pretending that the corporation itself --
a mere legal/financial/tax entity -- was the perpetrator
of the crime.
W
Winston_Smith
Guest
On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 10:00:58 -0400, Steve W. wrote:
I think the point is that the cars can only either meet the emissions
standards with reduced drivability, or, with the addition of a urea
system.
Either will be expensive.
I would bet there will be a software "patch" that will
erase the different testing maps, the cars will then meet the original
EPA standards
I think the point is that the cars can only either meet the emissions
standards with reduced drivability, or, with the addition of a urea
system.
Either will be expensive.
W
Winston_Smith
Guest
On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 08:15:24 -0700, trader_4 wrote:
Someone somewhere said it's not the severity of the punishment
that deters crime, but the certainty of it.
The other reason for criminal convictions is punishment,
regardless of deterrence. If you have no criminal laws
covering things like this, then it's open season and and
a whole lot of people who are already cutting corners,
going to the edge of what's legal or beyond, will just go
further.
Someone somewhere said it's not the severity of the punishment
that deters crime, but the certainty of it.
W
Winston_Smith
Guest
On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 21:26:40 -0700, Bob F wrote:
And the CEO stepped down today.
VW even, apparently, fingered a few employees to the German justice system
(which I'd love to know more about - because it gets down to "WHO" did it).
Update 9/22: This morning VW announced that the cheating issue on diesel engines
is much more vast than initially expected. The company admitted to cheating on
11 million diesel engines worldwide.
And the CEO stepped down today.
VW even, apparently, fingered a few employees to the German justice system
(which I'd love to know more about - because it gets down to "WHO" did it).
W
Winston_Smith
Guest
On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 22:22:32 -0500, Vic Smith wrote:
Thanks for explaining.
I just wonder why many people think EVERYTHING is caused by one party
or the other.
In this case, VW simply cheated.
They broke laws on purpose.
And they repeatedly lied (probably to avoid detection).
All to make money.
At the expense of everyone else.
If I was a competitor, I'd be livid that I had to spend money to meet
a standard that VW didn't even bother to meet, and yet profited for
years by not meeting.
That was tongue and cheek. But a congressional committee can
investigate a ham sandwich if they please.
Thanks for explaining.
I just wonder why many people think EVERYTHING is caused by one party
or the other.
In this case, VW simply cheated.
They broke laws on purpose.
And they repeatedly lied (probably to avoid detection).
All to make money.
At the expense of everyone else.
If I was a competitor, I'd be livid that I had to spend money to meet
a standard that VW didn't even bother to meet, and yet profited for
years by not meeting.
W
Winston_Smith
Guest
On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 23:08:40 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
I don't know how VW works, but, in one newspaper, they "speculated" that
this kind of cheat had to be approved at the top level.
In a corporation that size, even a small cadre could have been 20 to 50
engineers. Someone had to come up with the idea, design, build, test,
and approve everything. The guys on the line installing would probably
have no idea, just another part. Higher level in engineering would know.
I don't know how VW works, but, in one newspaper, they "speculated" that
this kind of cheat had to be approved at the top level.
W
Winston_Smith
Guest
On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 10:23:43 -0400, Steve W. wrote:
But don't you think the code, which clearly had legal implications
known to all involved, would have to be signed off at the highest
level?
The actual program change is easy. It could be hidden just about
anywhere but is likely very simple.
But don't you think the code, which clearly had legal implications
known to all involved, would have to be signed off at the highest
level?
W
Winston_Smith
Guest
On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 07:03:25 -0500, Dean Hoffman wrote:
That's an interesting observation!
They shouldn't be parking in the special parking spaces for
low emission vehicles.
That's an interesting observation!
Guest
"but under the DMCA it would be illegal for vehicle owners OR
the EPA to attempt reverse-engineering it from the object load."
Not so sure about that. There is probably an exemption for law enforcement purposes.
Plus the fact it is really not worth copyrighting. It's not like Microsoft Office or anything, all it does is engine control.