EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being te

[Lucia Gallo]

On Mon, 21 Sep 2015 12:57:34 +0000 (UTC), Ewald BĂśhm wrote:

My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions?

The best answer to the question seems to be here, as noted by Sofa Slug:

http://www.rocketnews.com/2015/09/did-volkswagen-cheat/
http://www.latimes.com/opinion/editorials/la-ed-vw-20150919-story.html

Staying on topic, this article says the cheat only worked when there was a
DYNO involved!
http://www.chron.com/business/energy/article/For-7-years-VW-software-thwarted-pollution-6520088.php

Here are the contiguous quotes:
(begin quote)
VW used secret software — an algorithm that detects when cars are being
tested on treadmill-like devices called dynamometers, and stealthily
switches the engines to a cleaner mode.

Because *smog tests are almost always done on dynamometers*, VW got away
with the scheme for seven years, until the "clean transportation" advocates
went to West Virginia University, which tests emissions using equipment
that fits in car trunks.
(end quote)

 

[Alina Popescu]

On Mon, 21 Sep 2015 07:13:08 -0700 (PDT), makolber@yahoo.com wrote:

> They got their buddies selling dynos to be rich.

Why is it called a dyno if it's spelled dynamometer?
Why not call it a dyna?

 

[Danny D.]

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 15:08:01 -0400, clare@snyder.on.ca wrote:

Officially, all cars 1996 and newer must be OBD2 compliant, but most
jurisdictions using OBD2 for E-Testing only start at 1997 models
because some 1996 models were not fully compliant. Only a very few
1995 vehicles had OBD2 capability as 1995 was "pre-standard"

This article says the whole TDI Clean Diesel campaign is a fraud.
I don't drive a diesel.

What was the "TDI Clean Diesel" campaign anyway?

 

[Danny D.]

On Mon, 21 Sep 2015 17:30:19 -0700, Danny D. wrote:

This article says the whole TDI Clean Diesel campaign is a fraud.
I don't drive a diesel.

What was the "TDI Clean Diesel" campaign anyway?

Oopops. Forgot to include the url:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a17430/ezra-dyer-volkswagen-diesel-controversy/

What was this "TDI Clean Diesel" campaign anyway?
And, what does that have to do with "urea" injection?

How does this UREA injection work?

 

[Dean Hoffman]

On Mon, 21 Sep 2015 19:34:46 -0500, Danny D. <dannyd@ahr.invalid> wrote:

On Mon, 21 Sep 2015 17:30:19 -0700, Danny D. wrote:

This article says the whole TDI Clean Diesel campaign is a fraud.
I don't drive a diesel.

What was the "TDI Clean Diesel" campaign anyway?

Oopops. Forgot to include the url:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a17430/ezra-dyer-volkswagen-diesel-controversy/

What was this "TDI Clean Diesel" campaign anyway?

Apparently a way to avoid the urea injection everyone else
used to get emissions down to the legal limit.

> And, what does that have to do with "urea" injection?

Both are supposedly ways to meet emissions standards.
One works. The other is Wizard of Oz engineering apparently.

How does this UREA injection work?

A youtube explanation:
http://preview.tinyurl.com/pumvto8
I didn't watch it and ain't qualified to
say if it's correct.

Have you noticed signs at truck stops saying "DEF Sold
In All Lanes"? That's diesel exhaust fluid or urea.



--
Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

 

[Jack Myers]

In rec.autos.tech Lucia Gallo <LuciaGallo@is.invalid> wrote:

On Mon, 21 Sep 2015 12:57:34 +0000 (UTC), Ewald Böhm wrote:

My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions?

Staying on topic, this article says the cheat only worked when there was a
DYNO involved!
http://www.chron.com/business/energy/article/For-7-years-VW-software-thwarted-pollution-6520088.php

Here are the contiguous quotes:
(begin quote)
VW used secret software ? an algorithm that detects when cars are being
tested on treadmill-like devices called dynamometers, and stealthily
switches the engines to a cleaner mode.

Because *smog tests are almost always done on dynamometers*, VW got away
with the scheme for seven years, until the "clean transportation" advocates
went to West Virginia University, which tests emissions using equipment
that fits in car trunks.
(end quote)

I have seen a suggestion that the onboard computer takes note of the
fact that the rear wheels are rotating and the front wheels are
stationary. That seems plausible to me.

 

[Dan Espen]

"Danny D." <dannyd@ahr.invalid> writes:

On Mon, 21 Sep 2015 17:30:19 -0700, Danny D. wrote:

This article says the whole TDI Clean Diesel campaign is a fraud.
I don't drive a diesel.

What was the "TDI Clean Diesel" campaign anyway?

Oopops. Forgot to include the url:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a17430/ezra-dyer-volkswagen-diesel-controversy/

What was this "TDI Clean Diesel" campaign anyway?
And, what does that have to do with "urea" injection?

How does this UREA injection work?

It's in the article:

All the other carmakers control diesel emissions by spraying a urea
solution into the exhaust stream, where a catalyst converts it to
ammonia. The ammonia breaks down NOx into nitrogen and water.

--
Dan Espen

 

[Jack Black]

On Mon, 21 Sep 2015 21:44:12 -0700, Sam Wilhelm wrote:

> How did this alleged cheat work exactly?

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1100125_vw-diesel-emissions-recall-what-you-need-to-know-in-10-questions/page-2
(4) What exactly did VW do?

Volkswagen has admitted that it equipped the control software for its
2.0-liter TDI diesel vehicles with a "defeat device" that detected when the
car was undergoing emissions testing and significantly changed the
operations of its powertrain to reduce emissions during the tests.

That detection was likely based on a combination of sensor data from the
car, which might include steering angle (since cars on dynamometer tests
don't make turns), front-wheel versus rear-wheel rotation speed, and a
variety of other factors.

It appears that a combination of the factors above plus extremely gentle
acceleration and braking might alert the car that it wasn't on the road but
being tested in a lab.

 

[Jack Black]

On Mon, 21 Sep 2015 12:46:48 +0000 (UTC), Ewald Böhm wrote:

> But it doesn't answer HOW.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1100125_vw-diesel-emissions-recall-what-you-need-to-know-in-10-questions/page-2

Based on discussions with knowledgeable sources, we surmise that once an
emissions test was detected, VW got the affected TDI engines to meet the
Tier 2, Bin 5 NOx limits by reducing the fuel flow rate.

This would reduce performance, but most likely not to the point where the
car couldn't complete the emission cycles.

Lowering fuel flow would also reduce combustion temperatures and/or the
duration of high-temperature operation enough to keep NOx emissions barely
within EPA limits.

If the car detected that it was no longer in "testing mode" but had
returned to "driving mode," it would restore fuel flow to the regular
level--which would send NOx emissions soaring.

 

[Jack Black]

On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 00:19:10 +0000 (UTC), Ewald Böhm wrote:

> My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions?

http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/documents/vw-nov-caa-09-18-15.pdf

 

[Jack Black]

On Mon, 21 Sep 2015 22:05:54 -0700, Jack Black wrote:

My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions?

http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/documents/vw-nov-caa-09-18-15.pdf

VW manufactured and installed software in the electronic control module
(ECM) of these vehicles that sensed when the behicle was being tested for
compliance with EPA emission standards. For ease of reference, the EPA is
calling this the "switch".

The "switch" senses whether the vehicle is being tested or not based on
various inputs including teh position of the steering wheel, vehicle speed,
the duration of the engine's operation, and barometric pressure.

These inputs precisely track the parameters of the federal test procedure
used for emission testing for EPA certification purposes. During EPA
emission testing, the vehicle's ECM ran software which produced compliant
emission results under and ECM calibration chart that VW referred to as the
"dyno calibration".

 

[Sam Wilhelm]

On Mon, 21 Sep 2015 21:07:31 -0700, Jack Myers wrote:

I have seen a suggestion that the onboard computer takes note of the
fact that the rear wheels are rotating and the front wheels are
stationary. That seems plausible to me.

They didn't explicity mention that, but this article has a section named
How did this alleged cheat work exactly?
http://jalopnik.com/your-guide-to-dieselgate-volkswagens-diesel-cheating-c-1731857018

 

" I find it amazing that so many people would participate in such a
dishonest act, and that it could remain secret for so long."

Sorry. Seems like you are a good person and projecting, trying to think everyone else is good.

That ain't how it is. Companies have a roomful of lawyers and accountant who do nothing but figure out odds on how much they can break the law or endanger people with a cheap design, versus how much it will cost them if they get caught, or have lawsuits. It is like playing poker. If you now ht you're doing, it is all a matter of real odds versus pot odds. that is how they think. That is how they stay on the board of directors, because they live the company on the edge. And if they don't they are voted out.

 

[Roger Blake]

On 2015-09-22, Mayayana <mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote:
> There should be arrests.

Should there have been arrests of EPA miscreants (or the environmentalists
that petitioned them to do so) for the hatchet job they did on DDT? This
resulted in millions of third-world deaths from malaria due to other
countries following our lead:

http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/viewSubCategory.asp?id=1259

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roger Blake (Change "invalid" to "com" for email. Google Groups killfiled.)

NSA sedition and treason -- http://www.DeathToNSAthugs.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Roger Blake]

On 2015-09-22, Scott Dorsey <kludge@panix.com> wrote:

This article is not exactly accurate.
...

The point is that government malfeasance, which can and does result
in massive death, rarely if ever goes punished. I don't know how much
additional pollution is being caused by VW diesels or if the effect
is even measurable given their relatively low numbers. I do know that
governments routinely lie, cheat, steal, and kill (sometimes en masse)
all in a day's work. There's no doubt that what VW did was bad, but
the outcry seems out of proportion given the routine misdeeds of
the State.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roger Blake (Change "invalid" to "com" for email. Google Groups killfiled.)

NSA sedition and treason -- http://www.DeathToNSAthugs.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[sms]

On 9/21/2015 9:07 PM, Jack Myers wrote:

<snip>

I have seen a suggestion that the onboard computer takes note of the
fact that the rear wheels are rotating and the front wheels are
stationary. That seems plausible to me.

Well the opposite for most or all VWs, but that makes sense.

 

[THE COLONEL, Ph.D]

I think a potato stuffed up the exhaust pipe would do just as much at half
the cost.

 

[Mayayana]

| > My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for
emissions?
|

I'm more curious about how the EPA didn't
figure it out earlier. Reports say the EPA saw a
discrepancy between testing and on-road
results. But they've been haggling with VW
all this time and somehow never thought to look
at the software. Is the software accessible to
EPA? Do they have developers who could
understand it?

How the test is faked is just a technical issue.
How the EPA didn't figure it out seems to be the
important issue. They only found out because they
threatened to hold up sales and at that point the
VW execs admitted what they were doing.
(Have they disclosed everything? Surely if there's
more dirty dealing they're not going to tell if they
don't have to.)

... Then of course there's the question that begs
to be asked: How could all of those executives,
in a company whose clientelle tend to be liberal
environmentalists, have possibly decided it was
a good idea to be so dishonest and shortsighted?

There should be arrests. Either way, it's likely
to be a serious, perhaps fatal, blow to the company.
If it were Chevy I'm sure rednecks would come out
of the woodwork to support "the company that denies
global warming". But VW customers are almost a
cult following, and mostly liberal.

 

[Scott Dorsey]

Mayayana <mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote:

I'm more curious about how the EPA didn't
figure it out earlier. Reports say the EPA saw a
discrepancy between testing and on-road
results. But they've been haggling with VW
all this time and somehow never thought to look
at the software. Is the software accessible to
EPA? Do they have developers who could
understand it?

No. The software is a black box both to vehicle owners and the EPA. Not
only that, but under the DMCA it would be illegal for vehicle owners OR
the EPA to attempt reverse-engineering it from the object load.

How the test is faked is just a technical issue.
How the EPA didn't figure it out seems to be the
important issue. They only found out because they
threatened to hold up sales and at that point the
VW execs admitted what they were doing.
(Have they disclosed everything? Surely if there's
more dirty dealing they're not going to tell if they
don't have to.)

Gaming the system is a longstanding tradition among car manufacturers and
I am _sure_ that if the source code were made public that all manner of
interesting games would be found.

... Then of course there's the question that begs
to be asked: How could all of those executives,
in a company whose clientelle tend to be liberal
environmentalists, have possibly decided it was
a good idea to be so dishonest and shortsighted?

THAT is the best question of all, yes. But that is a question that
needs to be asked by stockholders, and I have a suspicion that the next
annual meeting at Volkswagen will be interesting.

There should be arrests. Either way, it's likely
to be a serious, perhaps fatal, blow to the company.
If it were Chevy I'm sure rednecks would come out
of the woodwork to support "the company that denies
global warming". But VW customers are almost a
cult following, and mostly liberal.

Arrests will do nothing. What has to happen is that vehicle control code
needs to be documented and available to the vehicle owner and to the
government inspectors. Yes, I know this makes it easier for technology to
be stolen in places where patent and trademark law is unenforced (such as
China, where the car industry is growing by leaps and bounds and trying to
learn as much as possible from Western and Japanese manufacturers by any
means possible). But, it's necessary.

If you want to see something REALLY evil, take a look at John Deere's take
on their proprietary control systems. THERE are some people who could use
arresting.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

 

[Scott Dorsey]

Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> wrote:

On 2015-09-22, Mayayana <mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote:
There should be arrests.

Should there have been arrests of EPA miscreants (or the environmentalists
that petitioned them to do so) for the hatchet job they did on DDT? This
resulted in millions of third-world deaths from malaria due to other
countries following our lead:

http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/viewSubCategory.asp?id=1259

This article is not exactly accurate.

In the fifties, DDT was amazing, it worked great. We put it between our
sheets. You could spray it in the air and see insects dropping out right
and left.

But... by the seventies, mosquitoes (at least in Hawaii where I lived)
had pretty much become immune to the stuff. Enormous, absolutely enormous
amounts were necessary to kill insects. This is why there were environmental
effects. My father had a gadget that would drop a mix of diesel and DDT into
the muffler of the lawnmower and the smoke would kill mosquitoes, but by
the seventies it wasn't killing them any more, even with a couple pounds of
the stuff being burned.

Give it another forty years or so and we might be able to start using DDT
in a small way again. But it was the massive overuse and abuse of DDT that
got us to the point where it was banned, not some crazy left-wind conspiracy.

And yes, it WAS one of the big weapons in the fight against malaria, and it
was a crime to lose that weapon. But it wasn't politicians that lost it.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."