EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being te

[sms]

On 9/20/2015 3:49 PM, sms wrote:

<snip>

I had a smog check this morning on a 2007 Camry. The shop had a new
machine for newer vehicles. Since September 2013, 2000 and newer
vehicles no longer get tested on the dynamometer and no longer get a
probe shoved up their tailpipe. The whole test is done via the OBD-II
port (as well as a visual inspection).

For diesel vehicles you can see the details here:
<http://www.smogtips.com/diesel-smog-test.cfm>

So clearly VW was not just looking at wheel rotation, they probably
turned on the emission controls whenever they detected something reading
the sensors. I wonder if an ELM327 transceiver or a Progressive
"Snapshot" would have any effect.

 

[dsi1]

On 9/28/2015 6:42 AM, Steve W. wrote:

dsi1 wrote:
On 9/26/2015 2:58 PM, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 18:42:47 +0000 (UTC), Winston_Smith
invalid@butterfly.net> wrote:

On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 10:00:58 -0400, Steve W. wrote:

I would bet there will be a software "patch" that will
erase the different testing maps, the cars will then meet the original
EPA standards
I think the point is that the cars can only either meet the emissions
standards with reduced drivability, or, with the addition of a urea
system.

Either will be expensive.
What I'd like to find out someday is what the actual difference "on
the road" is in drivablity between the cars in "cheat" mode versus
when they run with all the emissions turned on like they are supposed
to. It would be funny if there really wasn't very much difference and
they did this just to get 31.9 mpg instead of 31.2 mpg and 0-60 of
12.0 seconds rather then 12.3.


My guess is that VW will use a software update rather than spend
thousands on a hardware fix. I think the update should come with a
hundred dollar check and a 2L bottle of Coke - diet or regular as a
jester of goodwill.

OTOH, my guess is that a lot of folks will just ignore any fix, if
they can avoid it. The big question is will they be compelled by the
state or feds to do this or will this be be treated as just another
recall.

You won't be able to ignore it. The EPA has a LOT more power than the
NHYSA does. They will simply blacklist the VIN numbers of all the
vehicles that are not in compliance with the regulations.

Owners will probably get a letter telling them that they have XXX days
to get to a dealer and have the fix done. If they don't they will get a
letter from the Feds telling them that they are driving a non-compliant
vehicle and that the registration has been suspended.

The way I see it, it's just another recall and the feds should just
grant an exception for the victims of this scam. I think that's an easy
solution to this problem.

 

[Tom Miller]

"sms" <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote in message
news:mucoqf$dll$1@dont-email.me...

On 9/20/2015 3:49 PM, sms wrote:

snip

I had a smog check this morning on a 2007 Camry. The shop had a new
machine for newer vehicles. Since September 2013, 2000 and newer vehicles
no longer get tested on the dynamometer and no longer get a probe shoved
up their tailpipe. The whole test is done via the OBD-II port (as well as
a visual inspection).

For diesel vehicles you can see the details here:
http://www.smogtips.com/diesel-smog-test.cfm

So clearly VW was not just looking at wheel rotation, they probably turned
on the emission controls whenever they detected something reading the
sensors. I wonder if an ELM327 transceiver or a Progressive "Snapshot"
would have any effect.

Here's an interesting point. It seems CA has portable roadside emissions
checkpoints that measure the emissions as you drive. I wonder why they
haven't seen a major problem with VW vehicles as they pass these
checkpoints?

Maybe it is a minimum difference between a properly working system and a VW
in the fuel economy mode? Like someone else said - is the nominal emission
near zero and 10 to 40 times worse is still an extremely small amount of
NOx.

 

[Ron D.]

My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions?

I saw a brief article in the newspaper and things suggested were:
Barometric pressure
Steering wheel position

among other things.

 

Possible, but I think the easiest way would be via the ABS. Rear wheels not turning. I could be wrong, I think German engineers get better drugs than most.

 

[John-Del]

On Saturday, September 19, 2015 at 6:49:22 PM UTC-4, et...@whidbey.com wrote:

On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 12:08:40 -0700, "Bob F" <bobnospam@gmail.com
wrote:

Steve W. wrote:
. wrote:
On 9/19/2015 11:12 AM, Steve W. wrote:
Sure will. You have to enter the VIN into the system to start the
inspection. IF the EPA requires a recall to reflash the ECM to
remove that software and "correct" the problem, that would have to
be done at a dealer. They will track completed vehicles by VIN. The
state can just flag ALL those vehicles. You pull in, they plug in
the tester, and your VIN doesn't show on the "recall complete"
list. You don't get inspected. That has happened before for other recalls.
I'm betting the fix
will be to re-flash the ECM software to remove the "switch". Then
run each one through the full EPA test regardless of registration
state. That because this if a federal law that was broken.

What will be fun will be watching all the johnny racer types who
modified the cars by removing emissions gear and "tuning" the ECM.
VW could actually show them to the EPA and say "THEY removed the
systems so they should pay a fine as well".

When has the EPA ever gone after individual passenger car vehicle
owners?

Happens a lot more than you might think. States get into the act under
the umbrella of the EPA laws.


VW intentionally wrote software for their vehicles with the express
intent of violating the EPA laws. They admitted to that already so it
will be interesting to see what happens. The EPA could recall the
cars, judge them as "unrepairable gross polluters" and have them
crushed. I doubt they will go that far but they have done it before
under the "cars for cash" BS.

Or, the EPA could require that all the cheating cars be re-programmed to meet
requirements all the time, and owners could sue VW's ass off for cheating them,
since the resulting performance will be terrible.

The cars should be re-programmed, at the expense of VW. And then a lot
of class action suits should be filed against VW. I suppose, to be
fair to the car buyers who did not knowingly participate in the scam,
there should be an option to have the new firmware installed. If they
get the new firmware then they get to sue. If not then they would get
no compensation because they have not suffered a loss.
ERS

Owners will NOT have the option to opt out of the firmware being upgraded because the cars are not EPA certifiable at this point. They need to be brought into compliance by U.S. law or be crushed if they cant. If the owner refuses to get an approved fix done, then many (if not most) will fail the car's emissions test and pull the reg (CT).

As far as suffering loss, that depends on the fix. If the firmware (and most likely hardware) changes do bring the cars into compliance, but causes a loss of performance and/or fuel mileage, then the owners have indeed suffered a compensable loss. If it can be shown that the resale of the cars suffered as a result of all of this, then that's also compensable. If the fix actually improves performance and efficiency (long shot but who knows?), then it's a win for the customer as long as the fix doesn't shorten the life of the engine.

If the fix ends up being like so many other recalls, I'm sure VW will also include some VW swag for the customers to compensate for the trouble (VW backpack, key rings, VW feminine hygiene products, etc.) and probably coupons for service and/or extending the warranty.

It will be interesting to see if VW had a fix ready in case the scam became known.

 

[Steve W.]

dsi1 wrote:

On 9/28/2015 6:42 AM, Steve W. wrote:
dsi1 wrote:
On 9/26/2015 2:58 PM, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 18:42:47 +0000 (UTC), Winston_Smith
invalid@butterfly.net> wrote:

On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 10:00:58 -0400, Steve W. wrote:

I would bet there will be a software "patch" that will
erase the different testing maps, the cars will then meet the original
EPA standards
I think the point is that the cars can only either meet the emissions
standards with reduced drivability, or, with the addition of a urea
system.

Either will be expensive.
What I'd like to find out someday is what the actual difference "on
the road" is in drivablity between the cars in "cheat" mode versus
when they run with all the emissions turned on like they are supposed
to. It would be funny if there really wasn't very much difference and
they did this just to get 31.9 mpg instead of 31.2 mpg and 0-60 of
12.0 seconds rather then 12.3.

My guess is that VW will use a software update rather than spend
thousands on a hardware fix. I think the update should come with a
hundred dollar check and a 2L bottle of Coke - diet or regular as a
jester of goodwill.

OTOH, my guess is that a lot of folks will just ignore any fix, if
they can avoid it. The big question is will they be compelled by the
state or feds to do this or will this be be treated as just another
recall.
You won't be able to ignore it. The EPA has a LOT more power than the
NHYSA does. They will simply blacklist the VIN numbers of all the
vehicles that are not in compliance with the regulations.

Owners will probably get a letter telling them that they have XXX days
to get to a dealer and have the fix done. If they don't they will get a
letter from the Feds telling them that they are driving a non-compliant
vehicle and that the registration has been suspended.



The way I see it, it's just another recall and the feds should just
grant an exception for the victims of this scam. I think that's an easy
solution to this problem.

That's just it, this isn't just another recall. These vehicles do not
meet US emissions standards as they are. The EPA will either force VW to
do a full recall and verification campaign or they could even make them
replace the cars. That is what still has to be determined.


--
Steve W.

 

[dsi1]

On 9/29/2015 8:36 AM, Steve W. wrote:

dsi1 wrote:
On 9/28/2015 6:42 AM, Steve W. wrote:
dsi1 wrote:
On 9/26/2015 2:58 PM, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 18:42:47 +0000 (UTC), Winston_Smith
invalid@butterfly.net> wrote:

On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 10:00:58 -0400, Steve W. wrote:

I would bet there will be a software "patch" that will
erase the different testing maps, the cars will then meet the
original
EPA standards
I think the point is that the cars can only either meet the emissions
standards with reduced drivability, or, with the addition of a urea
system.

Either will be expensive.
What I'd like to find out someday is what the actual difference "on
the road" is in drivablity between the cars in "cheat" mode versus
when they run with all the emissions turned on like they are supposed
to. It would be funny if there really wasn't very much difference and
they did this just to get 31.9 mpg instead of 31.2 mpg and 0-60 of
12.0 seconds rather then 12.3.

My guess is that VW will use a software update rather than spend
thousands on a hardware fix. I think the update should come with a
hundred dollar check and a 2L bottle of Coke - diet or regular as a
jester of goodwill.

OTOH, my guess is that a lot of folks will just ignore any fix, if
they can avoid it. The big question is will they be compelled by the
state or feds to do this or will this be be treated as just another
recall.
You won't be able to ignore it. The EPA has a LOT more power than the
NHYSA does. They will simply blacklist the VIN numbers of all the
vehicles that are not in compliance with the regulations.

Owners will probably get a letter telling them that they have XXX days
to get to a dealer and have the fix done. If they don't they will get a
letter from the Feds telling them that they are driving a non-compliant
vehicle and that the registration has been suspended.



The way I see it, it's just another recall and the feds should just
grant an exception for the victims of this scam. I think that's an
easy solution to this problem.

That's just it, this isn't just another recall. These vehicles do not
meet US emissions standards as they are. The EPA will either force VW to
do a full recall and verification campaign or they could even make them
replace the cars. That is what still has to be determined.

It doesn't have to be like that. Let's just treat it like another recall
and move on! What can I say, I'm a dreamer...

 

[Cydrome Leader]

In sci.electronics.repair Scott Dorsey <kludge@panix.com> wrote:

=?iso-8859-15?Q?Tekkie=AE?= <Tekkie@comcast.net> wrote:
Then the lead issue. I don't know if lead in gas was harmful or not but that
train has left the station. My observation is the air is "better" but is
that because of cars or the fact PA is ground zero of the "rust belt" and
manufacturing has left?

There are few things more terrifying than slow lead poisoning. The improvement
in the amount of lead in people's bodies has been amazing since lead was
taken out of gas.

That's not to say MBTE isn't pretty bad... it is. But lead is about the
scariest thing you can imagine.

When I was fresh out of college with an EE degree, I interviewed at a battery
plant in Alabama.... and as soon as you walked into the town you could see
the people in town being stupid. Everybody, everybody in town had clear signs
of lead exposure. I got out of there as quickly as I could and I did not look
back.

can you elaborate on this?

 

Actually the physiological effects of lead had absolutely nothing to do with its removal from gasoline.

It was the fact that is would screw up the catalytic convertors on cars. Lead abatement in paint, apartments and all that was a totally separate issue.

And if your kids are eating paint chips off the walls, you might want to watch them better, or possibly feed them better. Remember, they pick your retirement home.

 

Oh and BTW, did anyone get smarter ? People are fucking more stupid than ever.

Cause and effect matter not right now, because the fac is it did not work. They are getting dumber and dumber.

 

[Cydrome Leader]

In sci.electronics.repair Scott Dorsey <kludge@panix.com> wrote:

Cydrome Leader <presence@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:
In sci.electronics.repair Scott Dorsey <kludge@panix.com> wrote:
=?iso-8859-15?Q?Tekkie=AE?= <Tekkie@comcast.net> wrote:
Then the lead issue. I don't know if lead in gas was harmful or not but that
train has left the station. My observation is the air is "better" but is
that because of cars or the fact PA is ground zero of the "rust belt" and
manufacturing has left?

There are few things more terrifying than slow lead poisoning. The improvement
in the amount of lead in people's bodies has been amazing since lead was
taken out of gas.

That's not to say MBTE isn't pretty bad... it is. But lead is about the
scariest thing you can imagine.

When I was fresh out of college with an EE degree, I interviewed at a battery
plant in Alabama.... and as soon as you walked into the town you could see
the people in town being stupid. Everybody, everybody in town had clear signs
of lead exposure. I got out of there as quickly as I could and I did not look
back.

can you elaborate on this?

On scary battery plants or MBTE exposure, or long-term lead exposure rates?
--scott

both-

I imagined you visited some dirty smelting town where everybody was a
mouth breather caked in filth. The battery plant must have been a pleasant
place too.

Gary, IN had the permanent pollution cloud over it from heavy until maybe
the early 2000s. The smell was awful.

 

[Scott Dorsey]

Cydrome Leader <presence@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:

In sci.electronics.repair Scott Dorsey <kludge@panix.com> wrote:
=?iso-8859-15?Q?Tekkie=AE?= <Tekkie@comcast.net> wrote:
Then the lead issue. I don't know if lead in gas was harmful or not but that
train has left the station. My observation is the air is "better" but is
that because of cars or the fact PA is ground zero of the "rust belt" and
manufacturing has left?

There are few things more terrifying than slow lead poisoning. The improvement
in the amount of lead in people's bodies has been amazing since lead was
taken out of gas.

That's not to say MBTE isn't pretty bad... it is. But lead is about the
scariest thing you can imagine.

When I was fresh out of college with an EE degree, I interviewed at a battery
plant in Alabama.... and as soon as you walked into the town you could see
the people in town being stupid. Everybody, everybody in town had clear signs
of lead exposure. I got out of there as quickly as I could and I did not look
back.

can you elaborate on this?

On scary battery plants or MBTE exposure, or long-term lead exposure rates?
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

 

[Scott Dorsey]

Cydrome Leader <presence@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:

can you elaborate on this?

On scary battery plants or MBTE exposure, or long-term lead exposure rates?
--scott

both-

I imagined you visited some dirty smelting town where everybody was a
mouth breather caked in filth. The battery plant must have been a pleasant
place too.

The battery plant was in a town called Leeds, Alabama, and I have no idea
what happened to it. I was born in Pittsburgh so I have a pretty high
tolerance for industrial waste in the air, but lead is scary. The company
there had sent recruiters to gatech and as a new grad I was trying to get
as many plant tours as possible just to see what the industry was like.

I still do try to get plant tours whenever I can.

Here is some recent but pretty complete data on lead levels in children:
http://www.cdc.gov/nceh/lead/data/national.htm

And here is a good overview on why any lead is bad:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2533151/

I don't have a good online citation on how blood lead levels dropped when
leaded gasoline was banned, but "Cities: An Environmental History" has
an overview.

Gary, IN had the permanent pollution cloud over it from heavy until maybe
the early 2000s. The smell was awful.

But if it was anything like Pittsburgh, the sunsets were beautiful. My
aunt is still upset that they closed the mills down and now with no sulfur
in the air she keeps getting mildew on her roses.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

 

[I hate front wheel drive,]

On 9/19/15 08:12, mike wrote:

On 9/18/2015 9:42 PM, Ewald BĂśhm wrote:
On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 22:45:53 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

I also find it interesting that a large allegedly reputable company
would do something intentional to cheat like that. Too easy to get
caught or ratted out.

According to the news reports, VW admitted culpability.

If I were the owner of the affected cars, I would NOT bring them in for
the recall, since it's not a safety issue.

They will definitely lose performance after the "fix" (while they will
also do worse on emissions testing results).

It's a lose:lose situation for the car owner to get the car "fixed", I
think, because of those two results.

Do you agree?
Is there anything "good" that will happen if the owners "fix" their cars?

Will you have any choice?
If the test procedure for those cars is changed to test the "real"
emissions, they will FAIL.
If you care about air quality, you have to do that.
Here in Oregon, you don't get your license plates renewed if you fail.

You want VW to FIX the problem consistently with the
original driveablilty and economy.
Since that's likely not possible, what do you do now?
Force them to replace the whole car?

Yeah. Do a buyback and sell them where it's bloody hot
3rd world countries in africa and asia would rejoice
(australians would too I'm sure)

 

[I hate front wheel drive,]

On 9/19/15 15:25, Stormin Mormon wrote:

On 9/19/2015 12:42 AM, Ewald BĂśhm wrote:
On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 22:45:53 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

I also find it interesting that a large allegedly reputable company
would do something intentional to cheat like that. Too easy to get
caught or ratted out.

According to the news reports, VW admitted culpability.

If I were the owner of the affected cars, I would NOT bring them in for
the recall, since it's not a safety issue.

They will definitely lose performance after the "fix" (while they will
also do worse on emissions testing results).

It's a lose:lose situation for the car owner to get the car "fixed", I
think, because of those two results.

Do you agree?
Is there anything "good" that will happen if the owners "fix" their cars?


I'm likely mistaken, but my gut sense is that lower emissions
means lower performance, and lower mileage. My guess is that
the "fix" will be a downgrade of some kind.

The proper fix would be to buy the cars back from the (willing) owners
at bluebook and sell them to the (3rd world) countries that do not
participate in the smear campaign against VAG and could not care less
about the emissions.
An even more proper fix would be for VAG to withdraw from the american
market altogether.
There are lots of other markets where you do not have to make
emissions claims at all and that would appreciate the 4 banger
[turbo]diesels from VAG

 

[Klaatu]

"Ewald BĂśhm" <ewvesb@gilltaylor.ca> wrote in message
news:mti9lu$jb$1@news.mixmin.net...

Apparently Volkswagen/Audi cheated on the USA emissions tests since
2009 to 2015 by turning off the EGR to lower nitrogen oxide emissions
ONLY when the car was being tested for emissions.

REFERENCES:
http://blog.ucsusa.org/volkswagen-caught-cheating-vehicle-recall-887
http://www.engineering.com/AdvancedManufacturing/ArticleID/10688/VW-Caught-Cheating-on-EPA-Tests.aspx
http://hothardware.com/news/vw-intentionally-programmed-engine-software-to-cheat-emissions-tests-forced-by-epa-to-recall-482k-vehicles
etc.

My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions?

According to NBC, the emission controls were altered when only the front
wheels were turning, as on a dynometer.


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

 

[sms]

On 10/4/2015 2:39 PM, Klaatu wrote:

"Ewald BĂśhm" <ewvesb@gilltaylor.ca> wrote in message
news:mti9lu$jb$1@news.mixmin.net...
Apparently Volkswagen/Audi cheated on the USA emissions tests since
2009 to 2015 by turning off the EGR to lower nitrogen oxide emissions
ONLY when the car was being tested for emissions.

REFERENCES:
http://blog.ucsusa.org/volkswagen-caught-cheating-vehicle-recall-887
http://www.engineering.com/AdvancedManufacturing/ArticleID/10688/VW-Caught-Cheating-on-EPA-Tests.aspx

http://hothardware.com/news/vw-intentionally-programmed-engine-software-to-cheat-emissions-tests-forced-by-epa-to-recall-482k-vehicles

etc.

My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for
emissions?


According to NBC, the emission controls were altered when only the front
wheels were turning, as on a dynometer.

I don't know about diesels, but newer gasoline powered cars in
California don't use the dyno anymore. The levels are all read from the
sensors via the OBD-II port, at least in California.

 

[Clifford Heath]

On 05/10/15 13:33, sms wrote:

On 10/4/2015 2:39 PM, Klaatu wrote:
According to NBC, the emission controls were altered when only the front
wheels were turning, as on a dynometer.
I don't know about diesels, but newer gasoline powered cars in
California don't use the dyno anymore. The levels are all read from the
sensors via the OBD-II port, at least in California.

It's trivial to detect that the car is not being driven.
No steering wheel motion, no compass variation, no accelerometer (if
fitted), no... you name it, I'm sure there's a long list of candidates.

 

[mike]

On 10/4/2015 9:04 PM, Clifford Heath wrote:

On 05/10/15 13:33, sms wrote:
On 10/4/2015 2:39 PM, Klaatu wrote:
According to NBC, the emission controls were altered when only the front
wheels were turning, as on a dynometer.
I don't know about diesels, but newer gasoline powered cars in
California don't use the dyno anymore. The levels are all read from the
sensors via the OBD-II port, at least in California.

It's trivial to detect that the car is not being driven.
No steering wheel motion, no compass variation, no accelerometer (if
fitted), no... you name it, I'm sure there's a long list of candidates.

YOu're overthinking it. It's about driveability
If the rear wheels ain't turning, you should turn on the emission
controls. When the car is stopped in traffic, might as well make it
clean. Performance isn't an issue when stopped.
I'd have taken it a step further and made it clean whenever driveability
isn't compromised...like when not accelerating at a rate faster than
you could do with the emission controls functioning.
Probably would never have been detected.