EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being te

[Dean Hoffman]

On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 19:19:10 -0500, Ewald Böhm <ewvesb@gilltaylor.ca>
wrote:

Apparently Volkswagen/Audi cheated on the USA emissions tests since
2009 to 2015 by turning off the EGR to lower nitrogen oxide emissions
ONLY when the car was being tested for emissions.

REFERENCES:
http://blog.ucsusa.org/volkswagen-caught-cheating-vehicle-recall-887
http://www.engineering.com/AdvancedManufacturing/ArticleID/10688/VW-Caught-Cheating-on-EPA-Tests.aspx
http://hothardware.com/news/vw-intentionally-programmed-engine-software-to-cheat-emissions-tests-forced-by-epa-to-recall-482k-vehicles
etc.

My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for
emissions?

The CEO of VW is stepping down.
http://preview.alturl.com/jxppg
It's too bad he's German. We might run
out of candidates for U.S. President.


--
Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

 

[.]

On 9/19/2015 9:36 AM, . wrote:

On 9/19/2015 8:40 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 00:12:53 -0500, mike <ham789@netzero.net> wrote:

If I were the owner of the affected cars, I would NOT bring them in for
the recall, since it's not a safety issue.

They will definitely lose performance after the "fix" (while they will
also do worse on emissions testing results).

It's a lose:lose situation for the car owner to get the car "fixed", I
think, because of those two results.

Do you agree?
Is there anything "good" that will happen if the owners "fix" their
cars?

Will you have any choice?
If the test procedure for those cars is changed to test the "real"
emissions, they will FAIL.
If you care about air quality, you have to do that.
Here in Oregon, you don't get your license plates renewed if you fail.

Some cut.

Some states, like Nebraska, do no testing. We had some testing
for horns, lights, etc. back in the 70s, but dropped it. I think
the testers hollered too loud about the low testing fee allowed.
I wonder how many of the non-compliant vehicles will end up in
states with no testing.

Passenger car testing of any type has ALWAYS been a scam
and is enacted for generating revenue. Nothing more, nothing
less. "Unsafe" cars have NEVER been a significant proximate
cause of accidents nor does smog testing of these vehicles
lead to measurably cleaner air. These two concerns are best
addressed at time of manufacture.

The VW case is a conspicuous textbook example of how and why
emissions testing is a doomed to failure approach similar to solving
drug abuse by arresting individual users. As even the admitted guilty
party have undeniably exposed, emissions control MUST be properly
addressed at the point of manufacture.

 

[.]

On 9/19/2015 9:36 AM, . wrote:

On 9/19/2015 8:40 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 00:12:53 -0500, mike <ham789@netzero.net> wrote:

If I were the owner of the affected cars, I would NOT bring them in for
the recall, since it's not a safety issue.

They will definitely lose performance after the "fix" (while they will
also do worse on emissions testing results).

It's a lose:lose situation for the car owner to get the car "fixed", I
think, because of those two results.

Do you agree?
Is there anything "good" that will happen if the owners "fix" their
cars?

Will you have any choice?
If the test procedure for those cars is changed to test the "real"
emissions, they will FAIL.
If you care about air quality, you have to do that.
Here in Oregon, you don't get your license plates renewed if you fail.

Some cut.

Some states, like Nebraska, do no testing. We had some testing
for horns, lights, etc. back in the 70s, but dropped it. I think
the testers hollered too loud about the low testing fee allowed.
I wonder how many of the non-compliant vehicles will end up in
states with no testing.

Passenger car testing of any type has ALWAYS been a scam
and is enacted for generating revenue. Nothing more, nothing
less. "Unsafe" cars have NEVER been a significant proximate
cause of accidents nor does smog testing of these vehicles
lead to measurably cleaner air. These two concerns are best
addressed at time of manufacture.

The VW case is a conspicuous textbook example of how and why
emissions testing is a doomed to failure approach similar to solving
drug abuse by arresting individual users. As even the admitted guilty
party have undeniably exposed, emissions control MUST be properly
addressed at the point of manufacture.

 

[Kevin Bottorff]

"Dean Hoffman" <dh0496@windstream.net> wrote in
newsp.x5ewt0gp6w0fur@deans-air.home:

Wonder about MB and BMW Diesel vehicles. I was looking at MB GLK-250
Diesel version when news broke out. Considering Diesel vehicle for next
new car purchase is on hold now. Also I am wondering about turbo charged
small engines on almost every cars, Ecoboost, Skyactive...,etc. Crap.

I had a Mazda MX6 with a turbo. One was supposed to let the engine
idle for a minute before shutting it off to let the turbo wind down.
There might've been some cooling also.
An oil reservoir above the turbo with a flow restrictor would've
eliminated that requirement but that would've cost the manufacturer
money.

it was to cool the shafts and blades so the oil wouldn`t coke up. not spin
down. KB

 

[Steve W.]

Winston_Smith wrote:

On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 10:00:58 -0400, Steve W. wrote:

I would bet there will be a software "patch" that will
erase the different testing maps, the cars will then meet the original
EPA standards

I think the point is that the cars can only either meet the emissions
standards with reduced drivability, or, with the addition of a urea
system.

Either will be expensive.

The cars can meet the standards as built. The only real change would be
that the mpg numbers will fall to the original EPA numbers. The only
other thing will be an increase in the amount of times the systems burn
the residuals in the trap.

--
Steve W.

 

[John Robertson]

On 09/23/2015 11:48 AM, Winston_Smith wrote:

On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 22:22:32 -0500, Vic Smith wrote:

That was tongue and cheek. But a congressional committee can
investigate a ham sandwich if they please.

Thanks for explaining.

I just wonder why many people think EVERYTHING is caused by one party
or the other.

In this case, VW simply cheated.
They broke laws on purpose.
And they repeatedly lied (probably to avoid detection).

All to make money.
At the expense of everyone else.

If I was a competitor, I'd be livid that I had to spend money to meet
a standard that VW didn't even bother to meet, and yet profited for
years by not meeting.

That's assuming none of the other auto makers pull(ed) the same trick. I
think this is the tip of an iceberg...

John :-#)#

--
(Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
(604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."

 

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 9/23/2015 10:00 AM, Steve W. wrote:

Bob F wrote:

VW might just decide to leave the market in the US.

Doubt they will walk away from a huge market where they have been well
established.

 

[.]

On 9/23/2015 9:00 AM, Steve W. wrote:

Bob F wrote:
Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 9/23/2015 12:56 AM, Bob F wrote:

Murder is illegal but people still do it.
But the possibilty of real prison time will make them think before
doing the crime.

But most criminals think they will never be caught so prison is little
deterrent.

We'll see what they think after a few hundred VW employees do some
serious prison time.

I bet white collar crime would be a lot more affected by serious
prosecutions than random murders. Maybe someday, we'll see it happen.
This is not just a US crime.

Won't happen. I would bet there will be a software "patch" that will
erase the different testing maps, the cars will then meet the original
EPA standards BUT they won't be getting the high mpg numbers that owners
bragged about.

The folks who did modifications will likely refuse to bring their cars
in and the EPA will just issue a VIN list saying these cars are no
longer legal for road use in the US, registrations and insurance would
be revoked.

VW might just decide to leave the market in the US.

It has been reported that less than one in twenty-two
problem cars were actually sold in the U.S.

 

[Robert Green]

"Winston_Smith" <invalid@butterfly.net> wrote in message
news:mturtd$bbh$4@news.mixmin.net...

On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 08:15:24 -0700, trader_4 wrote:

The other reason for criminal convictions is punishment,
regardless of deterrence. If you have no criminal laws
covering things like this, then it's open season and and
a whole lot of people who are already cutting corners,
going to the edge of what's legal or beyond, will just go
further.

Someone somewhere said it's not the severity of the punishment
that deters crime, but the certainty of it.

My crim. prof didn't believe much in deterrence and pointed out that in
Merry Olde England "Pickpockets picked pockets at the hangings of
pickpockets."

People were so entranced by watching someone *else* dying that they became
excellent targets for pickpockets.

It's also been shown that it's very hard to deter crimes of passion because
people are often way out of their minds when they kill lovers, spouses,
children, etc.

--
Bobby G.

 

[NoSpamForMe]

Virtually all marketing material is a lie.

Did you really think that shopvac you bought at McLowesDepotBigBoxSuperMart has a 6HP motor on it?

Did you really think that $49 TV antenna can pull in stations from 200 miles away?

Did you really think your new car would actually get the mpg advertised on the sticker?

You really think your extended warranty will cover everything?

Did you really think Dick Network would deliver all those channels for $19.95 / mo?

So what if VW stretches the truth a bit, they ***all*** do.

Do you know how to tell if a car salesperson is lying? Their lips are moving.

 

[Roger Blake]

On 2015-09-23, Bob F <bobnospam@gmail.com> wrote:
> Really!!

Pick up a history book sometime and see what a "goof" it is. Government
has always been a criminal enterprise whose primary activities have been
theft, extortion, murder, and slavery.

Volkswagen lied, but they lied to a motley collection of liars, thieves,
thugs and other miscreants. (As a practical matter, the total emissions
are still very low with no actual effect on air quality vs. the arbitrary
EPA "standard." The environmentalist crowd has never really grokked the
concept of "diminishing returns" or the fact that causing a vehicle to use
more fuel just shifts emissions elswhere to provide the extra fuel.)

Screw the EPA and the horse they rode in on (the federal beast). The
best comment I saw on the VW situation was this on a political site:

Translation: Slaves rebel; caught trying to escape from The Plantation.
Massa plans to whip their asses.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roger Blake (Change "invalid" to "com" for email. Google Groups killfiled.)

NSA sedition and treason -- http://www.DeathToNSAthugs.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Vincent Cheng Hoi Chuen]

Ewald BĂśhm <ewvesb@gilltaylor.ca> wrote in mti9lu$jb$1@news.mixmin.net:

> My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions?

This video says that the VW TDI meets all California and US & Europe requirements!
https://youtu.be/GzuFXeO48Rw?t=635

 

[Vincent Cheng Hoi Chuen]

Ashton Crusher <demi@moore.net> wrote in
2dn60bto3pt5s9s7gslp219dhrgvqslo37@4ax.com:

That's my point for this thread branch, yes. Not only isn't it worth
it, the code is none of teh EPA's damn business.

What I don't understand is that the code, apparently, allowed *more*
fuel to the engine (to cool the combustion chamber) which lowered NOx
emissions.

So, fixing the problem should result in *less* fuel to the engine, if
that's the case.

When they reflash the ecu, wouldn't that lowering of fuel *increase* gas
mileage *and* bring NOx emissions back down to where they said they were?

 

[Winston_Smith]

On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 19:07:48 -0700, Ashton Crusher wrote:

Surely *someone* at VW must have noticed that when they tested
instrumented vehicles on the road they were not meeting emissions
standards. It's inconceivable they never tested these "in the wild"
but only tested them back at the shop on the dynamometer and the
"switch" kept those engineers from seeing that things weren't as they
should be.

I have to agree with you.

Notice what Winterkorn said, which was that he wasn't aware, "to his
knowledge", that he cheated. Hmmmm...

And Clinton didn't have sexual relations with that woman either.

 

[Bob F]

Robert Green wrote:

"Winston_Smith" <invalid@butterfly.net> wrote in message
news:mturtd$bbh$4@news.mixmin.net...
On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 08:15:24 -0700, trader_4 wrote:

The other reason for criminal convictions is punishment,
regardless of deterrence. If you have no criminal laws
covering things like this, then it's open season and and
a whole lot of people who are already cutting corners,
going to the edge of what's legal or beyond, will just go
further.

Someone somewhere said it's not the severity of the punishment
that deters crime, but the certainty of it.

My crim. prof didn't believe much in deterrence and pointed out that
in Merry Olde England "Pickpockets picked pockets at the hangings of
pickpockets."

People were so entranced by watching someone *else* dying that they
became excellent targets for pickpockets.

It's also been shown that it's very hard to deter crimes of passion
because people are often way out of their minds when they kill
lovers, spouses, children, etc.

Corporate crime is not in that category. Serious prison terms for corporate
officers and anyone else involved would probably be a strong deterant. Corporate
shortcuts that result in multiple deaths should alway result in strong
prosecutions. Just like presecution of corporation officers for hiring illegal
immigrants is the only real solution to the problem the Repubs whine so much
about. Way cheaper than building the wall they want.

 

On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 23:25:51 -0600, Tony Hwang <dragon40@shaw.ca>
wrote:

Bob F wrote:
Bob F wrote:
NoSpamForMe wrote:
On 9/18/2015 8:19 PM, Ewald Böhm wrote:
Apparently Volkswagen/Audi cheated on the USA emissions tests since
2009 to 2015 by turning off the EGR to lower nitrogen oxide
emissions ONLY when the car was being tested for emissions.

REFERENCES:
http://blog.ucsusa.org/volkswagen-caught-cheating-vehicle-recall-887
http://www.engineering.com/AdvancedManufacturing/ArticleID/10688/VW-Caught-Cheating-on-EPA-Tests.aspx
http://hothardware.com/news/vw-intentionally-programmed-engine-software-to-cheat-emissions-tests-forced-by-epa-to-recall-482k-vehicles
etc.

My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for
emissions?

It seems like everyone here is on a VW witch hunt.
I would expect VW to program it's black boxes to use the minimum fuel
for a given situation. If the car is on a dyno, there would be no
wind resistance to push
against so the fuel system *should* lower the fuel flow. I'd expect
the same behavior if I was rolling down a mountain grade. Sheeeesh!

Wow! Cluelessness at it's best!

Update 9/22: This morning VW announced that the cheating issue on diesel engines
is much more vast than initially expected. The company admitted to cheating on
11 million diesel engines worldwide.


Wonder about MB and BMW Diesel vehicles. I was looking at MB GLK-250
Diesel version when news broke out. Considering Diesel vehicle for next
new car purchase is on hold now. Also I am wondering about turbo charged
small engines on almost every cars, Ecoboost, Skyactive...,etc. Crap.

BMW and MB use DEF - I believe it wsas only Volkswagen's "clean diesel
technology" that did not - and now we know how THAT worked.

 

On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 05:59:50 -0500, "Dean Hoffman"
<dh0496@windstream.net> wrote:

Wonder about MB and BMW Diesel vehicles. I was looking at MB GLK-250
Diesel version when news broke out. Considering Diesel vehicle for next
new car purchase is on hold now. Also I am wondering about turbo charged
small engines on almost every cars, Ecoboost, Skyactive...,etc. Crap.

I had a Mazda MX6 with a turbo. One was supposed to let the engine
idle for a minute before shutting it off to let the turbo wind down.
There might've been some cooling also.
An oil reservoir above the turbo with a flow restrictor would've
eliminated that requirement but that would've cost the manufacturer
money.
Toyota's solution was a water cooled turbo.

 

[Sjouke Burry]

On 23.09.15 20:45, Winston_Smith wrote:

On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 21:26:40 -0700, Bob F wrote:

Update 9/22: This morning VW announced that the cheating issue on diesel engines
is much more vast than initially expected. The company admitted to cheating on
11 million diesel engines worldwide.

And the CEO stepped down today.

VW even, apparently, fingered a few employees to the German justice system
(which I'd love to know more about - because it gets down to "WHO" did it).

The top100 of the factory leaders will say sorry, and
tell us they did not know about it, and
a few janitors will go to jail.
Oh, and profits might go down a bit.......

White collar crime punishment is almost non-existent..

 

[.]

On 9/23/2015 8:21 PM, Roger Blake wrote:

On 2015-09-23, Bob F <bobnospam@gmail.com> wrote:
Really!!

Pick up a history book sometime and see what a "goof" it is. Government
has always been a criminal enterprise whose primary activities have been
theft, extortion, murder, and slavery.

Volkswagen lied, but they lied to a motley collection of liars, thieves,
thugs and other miscreants. (As a practical matter, the total emissions
are still very low with no actual effect on air quality vs. the arbitrary
EPA "standard." The environmentalist crowd has never really grokked the
concept of "diminishing returns" or the fact that causing a vehicle to use
more fuel just shifts emissions elswhere to provide the extra fuel.)

This reads more like a comedy routine than a serious protest.

Screw the EPA and the horse they rode in on (the federal beast). The
best comment I saw on the VW situation was this on a political site:

Screw the lead, asbestos and dioxin, full speed ahead.

Translation: Slaves rebel; caught trying to escape from The Plantation.
Massa plans to whip their asses.

That much is true, Felipe Massa always hopes to beat every driver.

 

[Bob F]

Sjouke Burry wrote:

On 23.09.15 20:45, Winston_Smith wrote:
On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 21:26:40 -0700, Bob F wrote:

Update 9/22: This morning VW announced that the cheating issue on
diesel engines is much more vast than initially expected. The
company admitted to cheating on 11 million diesel engines worldwide.

And the CEO stepped down today.

VW even, apparently, fingered a few employees to the German justice
system (which I'd love to know more about - because it gets down to
"WHO" did it).
The top100 of the factory leaders will say sorry, and
tell us they did not know about it, and
a few janitors will go to jail.
Oh, and profits might go down a bit.......

White collar crime punishment is almost non-existent..

Maybe this will be the time for a change??