Electrify I-40, I-95 and I-5

[John Larkin]

On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 22:18:53 -0800 (PST), mrdarrett@gmail.com wrote:

On Dec 11, 8:04 pm, John Larkin
jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
On Thu, 11 Dec 2008 09:05:06 -0800 (PST), Bret Cahill

BretCah...@peoplepc.com> wrote:
When you are off these interstates you run your hybrid electric or EV
on gas or batteries respectively and when you are on these interstates
you run off the grid.

Conventional drive trains could be used along side the newer until it
is cheaper to upgrade.

Phasing in digital TV is much more difficult.

Bret Cahill

Excuse me, but how does the electricity get from the highway into the
car?

John


Invisible electricity-carrying unicorns, of course. Why do you ask?

grin

Michael

Because I'm allergic to unicorns. I'll use Highway 1.

John

 

[John Larkin]

On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 21:28:58 -0600, krw <krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzz> wrote:

In article <f76dncw4F5tQhd7UnZ2dnUVZ_o_inZ2d@giganews.com>,
boobooililililil@roadrunner.com says...
Bret Cahill wrote:
When you are off these interstates you run your hybrid electric or EV
on gas or batteries respectively and when you are on these interstates
you run off the grid.

Conventional drive trains could be used along side the newer until it
is cheaper to upgrade.

Phasing in digital TV is much more difficult.


Bret Cahill


Magnetic induction cable buried in road with pick up coils on vehicles
to run electric and charge batteries. Batteries used on secondary roads.
Total electric transportation.

You're not an electrical engineer, are you?

Not an engineer of any sort.

John

 

[John Larkin]

On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 22:17:14 -0800 (PST), Piscesdream
<piscesdream70@gmail.com> wrote:

On Dec 11, 9:05 am, Bret Cahill <BretCah...@peoplepc.com> wrote:
When you are off these interstates you run your hybrid electric or EV
on gas or batteries respectively and when you are on these interstates
you run off the grid.

Conventional drive trains could be used along side the newer until it
is cheaper to upgrade.

Phasing in digital TV is much more difficult.

Bret Cahill

Why cant they use Fed funds to install a charging station at the rest
stops and truck stops?

Fed funds? Where do Fed funds come from?

And who wants to hang out in a souvenir shop for two hours, every 100
miles, while your car is being charged?

Imagine how many cars would be parked. A gas station fills a car in a
few minutes, and sometimes all 12 or so pumps are busy. Scale that to
2-hour fill-up times.

John

 

[Bret Cahill]

Because I'm allergic to unicorns. I'll use Highway 1.

At least you're no longer trying to fake a tech background.

Whatever happened to the silly goose who was photographing cards and
putting them on his web page?

Whatever happened to the moron who kept typing "LOL!"

! ! !

<grin>

LOL!

<grin>

LOL!

: - )

 

[Bret Cahill]

When you are off these interstates you run your hybrid electric or EV
on gas or batteries respectively and when you are on these interstates
you run off the grid.

Conventional drive trains could be used along side the newer until it
is cheaper to upgrade.

Phasing in digital TV is much more difficult.

Why cant they use Fed funds to install a charging station at the rest
stops and truck stops?

Battery replacement cost is twice as much as grid power and probably
represents something like 3X more CO2 than straight grid.


Bret Cahill

 

[Bret Cahill]

When you are off these interstates you run your hybrid electric or EV
on gas or batteries respectively and when you are on these interstates
you run off the grid.

Conventional drive trains could be used along side the newer until it
is cheaper to upgrade.

Phasing in digital TV is much more difficult.

Bret Cahill

Magnetic induction cable buried in road with pick up coils on vehicles
to run electric and charge batteries.

It is not necessary to immediately get everyone off of every last drop
of fuel. It isn't necessary for it to be continuous or up 100% of
the time.

During heavy downpours, you burn fuel.

We just need to buy time because the Fed ain't gonna do the Great
Depression thangy.

The Fed will, as Warren Buffet figgered out, do the inflation thangy.

Fuel will be spiraling with a vengeance as soon as the economy gets
going.

We need to cut fuel costs any way you can.

Batteries used on secondary roads.
Total electric transportation.

It's not necessary to go 100% electric 100% of the time, at least not
now.

The Israelis have a solar thermal plant where they use gas on cloudy
days.

The Europeans have a solar thermal gas turbine where they top off the
inlet temperatures by burning a little fuel in the air after it leaves
the solar heater.

Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the possible.


Bret Cahill

 

[Bret Cahill]

When you are off these interstates you run your hybrid electric or EV
on gas or batteries respectively and when you are on these interstates
you run off the grid.

Conventional drive trains could be used along side the newer until it
is cheaper to upgrade.

Phasing in digital TV is much more difficult.

Bret Cahill

Magnetic induction cable buried in road with pick up coils on vehicles
to run electric and charge batteries. Batteries used on secondary roads..
Total electric transportation.

� �At the lowest possible efficiency.

Maybe one of your unicorns could provide some numbers or reasoning?

LOL!

 

On Dec 12, 12:27 pm, Bret Cahill <BretCah...@aol.com> wrote:

When you are off these interstates you run your hybrid electric or EV
on gas or batteries respectively and when you are on these interstates
you run off the grid.

Conventional drive trains could be used along side the newer until it
is cheaper to upgrade.

Phasing in digital TV is much more difficult.

Bret Cahill

A better idea: electric vehicle battery-swap
Batteries are too expensive. CO2 can be reduced by several times more
by running directly off the grid.
I tend to agree with mrdarrett.
Battery swap stations are easier and cheaper than a (so far completely
hypothetical) electrified hieway system.

Battery replacement cost is twice that of the energy that goes through
the batteries.

Eliminating or greatly reducing this cost is a great savings.

But for the next 10 years or so and maybe longer, simply using
electric-drive (series) hybrid and Plug-In hybrids probably makes the most
sense for everyone.

This is certainly true if you are planning to electrify highways.

Compressed air, however, is a cheaper _overall_ energy storage system
than electric. A hybrid - air system is somewhat less efficient than
hybrid electric and must cycle more often, but eliminating battery
costs more than makes up for these shortcomings.

How much cheaper is compressed air than electric?

What pressures will you plan to compress the air to?

What range will you expect from a compressed air vehicle?

Michael

 

[Bret Cahill]

When you are off these interstates you run your hybrid electric or EV
on gas or batteries respectively and when you are on these interstates
you run off the grid.

Conventional drive trains could be used along side the newer until it
is cheaper to upgrade.

Phasing in digital TV is much more difficult.

Bret Cahill

Why cant they use Fed funds to install a charging station at the rest
stops and truck stops?

Fed funds? Where do Fed funds come from?

The same place that bailed out Wall Street, no strings attached, with
$850 billion.

And who wants to hang out in a souvenir shop for two hours, every 100
miles, while your car is being charged?

Charging times can be reduced with smaller cells. The real problem is
the cost of the batteries is twice that of the electricity itself.

Imagine how many cars would be parked. A gas station fills a car in a
few minutes, and sometimes all 12 or so pumps are busy. Scale that to
2-hour fill-up times.

Truckers already spend 2 hours at every truck stop, whether they buy
fuel or not.

Anyway, unless you believe in the infinite oil theory, the only
plausible shovel ready solution is to start electrifying the highways.


Bret Cahill

 

On Dec 13, 11:01 am, Bret Cahill <BretCah...@peoplepc.com> wrote:

When you are off these interstates you run your hybrid electric or EV
on gas or batteries respectively and when you are on these interstates
you run off the grid.

Conventional drive trains could be used along side the newer until it
is cheaper to upgrade.

Phasing in digital TV is much more difficult.

Bret Cahill

Magnetic induction cable buried in road with pick up coils on vehicles
to run electric and charge batteries.

It is not necessary to immediately get everyone off of every last drop
of fuel. It isn't necessary for it to be continuous or up 100% of
the time.

During heavy downpours, you burn fuel.

We just need to buy time because the Fed ain't gonna do the Great
Depression thangy.

The Fed will, as Warren Buffet figgered out, do the inflation thangy.

Fuel will be spiraling with a vengeance as soon as the economy gets
going.

We need to cut fuel costs any way you can.

Batteries used on secondary roads.
Total electric transportation.

It's not necessary to go 100% electric 100% of the time, at least not
now.

The Israelis have a solar thermal plant where they use gas on cloudy
days.

So do the Californians!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_Energy_Generating_Systems

Michael

 

[Bret Cahill]

and most energy would be used during peak hours.
So plug-in hybrids, charged at night, make a lot more sense...

What about long haul trucks?

I want to bet that they (with all other heavy equipment) go series hybrid,

That'll be necessary in order to electrify road beds.

just like diesel-electric locomotives did a long time
ago.

Streamlined rigs only need 110 kW to go 65 on flat land so they'll
need to cycle on and off for high efficieny. It other words, they'll
need a battery.

UP has been painting "hybrid" on the sides of their locomotives but
since they don't have batteries, it's not really the same thing. The
RR just didn't want to screw around with a clutch.

Norfolk and Western, now Norfolk Southern, used steam up until the
early '60s. Steam requires no clutch either.


Bret Cahill


"Southern Serves the South.
Look Ahead, Look South."

-- Southern RR slogan

 

[Bret Cahill]

You would not need 40 quads.
Currently the entire US transportation sector uses 5 quads per year in
effective (wheel drive) energy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:USEnFlow02-quads.gif

And you're going to use efficiency fairies to get that 5q of
mechanical energy from 5q of electrical energy?

It's a ball park number, pumpkin.

You ought to go back and play in the park, kid.

5 quads per year is about 50% of our current electricity use.
That is still a lot, but it is within reason and could be achieved by a good
investment in electric power generation, especially if most of that power
would be needed at night (recharging vehicle batteries) when power usage is
currently very low.

Oh, we'd only have to DOUBLE generation capacity, even with your
efficiency fairies.

First of all, 50% increase is not a doubling.

Your efficiency fairies are hard at work again, I see.

Second, night time electricity use is low right now, and that's exactly when vehicles will be charged up.

Why not use that electricity for heating?  Get rid of the stationary
oil usage before you go after what oil is *really* *really* good
for.

So the CAPACITY of power generation does not need to change for a long time to come.

Nonsense.  You're going to double load and need no more capacity.  
You certainly *do* have some fairies in your bonnet.

Now to get this power to the vehicles, a electrified highway system sounds
like one of the most expensive solutions, especially since people that do
not enter the freeway on their dayly drive would be excluded from using this
absurtly expensive system, and most energy would be used during peak hours.
So plug-in hybrids, charged at night, make a lot more sense...

Maybe more sense than efficiency fairies, but still no sense.  A
greenie weenie plan, to be sure.

Greenie weenie ? Sure, whatever.

Yep.  ...and green behind the ears too.

But it's economically vital though, because it will get us off imported oil. And that saves billions per day and then some...

Nonsense.  That's a political problem, *easily* solved.  String up
the greenie weenies (and lawyers) first.

That's a political problem

Kind of like the political problem of GOP bottom fishing in the info
age.

All Repugs can get are fundies and trailer trash.


Bret Cahill

 

[Rob Dekker]

"krw" <krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzz> wrote in message
news:MPG.23acfd0a436b8fec98a448@news.individual.net...

In article <7YG0l.9811$yr3.2919@nlpi068.nbdc.sbc.com>,
rob@verific.com says...

"krw" <krw@att.zzzzzzzzz> wrote in message
news:MPG.23ac1c8dbfb2d39e9896fc@news.individual.net...
....
You would not need 40 quads.
Currently the entire US transportation sector uses 5 quads per year in
effective (wheel drive) energy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:USEnFlow02-quads.gif

And you're going to use efficiency fairies to get that 5q of
mechanical energy from 5q of electrical energy?

It's a ball park number, pumpkin.

You ought to go back and play in the park, kid.

Where are your numbers, Eistein ?

First of all, 50% increase is not a doubling.

Your efficiency fairies are hard at work again, I see.

Which math did you use to explain how 50% increase constitutes a doubling ?

Second, night time electricity use is low right now, and that's exactly
when vehicles will be charged up.

Why not use that electricity for heating?

??

Get rid of the stationary
oil usage before you go after what oil is *really* *really* good
for.

We got rid of stationary oil in the 70s/80s. Where have you been ?

So the CAPACITY of power generation does not need to change for a long
time to come.

Nonsense. You're going to double load and need no more capacity.
You certainly *do* have some fairies in your bonnet.

Where are your numbers, Einstein ?

Now to get this power to the vehicles, a electrified highway system
sounds
like one of the most expensive solutions, especially since people that
do
not enter the freeway on their dayly drive would be excluded from
using this
absurtly expensive system, and most energy would be used during peak
hours.
So plug-in hybrids, charged at night, make a lot more sense...

Maybe more sense than efficiency fairies, but still no sense. A
greenie weenie plan, to be sure.


Greenie weenie ? Sure, whatever.

Yep. ...and green behind the ears too.

Where are your numbers, Einstein ?

But it's economically vital though, because it will get us off imported
oil. And that saves billions per day and then some...

Nonsense. That's a political problem, *easily* solved.

It's a political problem for sure.
And that's indeed about to be solved.

--
String up the greenie weenies (and lawyers) first.

Bad day ?

> Keith

 

[Rob Dekker]

"Bret Cahill" <BretCahill@peoplepc.com> wrote in message
news:e4cb2f69-bc93-436a-bbed-25ad787def07@x16g2000prn.googlegroups.com...

and most energy would be used during peak hours.
So plug-in hybrids, charged at night, make a lot more sense...

What about long haul trucks?

I want to bet that they (with all other heavy equipment) go series
hybrid,

That'll be necessary in order to electrify road beds.

??

just like diesel-electric locomotives did a long time
ago.

Streamlined rigs only need 110 kW to go 65 on flat land so they'll
need to cycle on and off for high efficieny. It other words, they'll
need a battery.

Agreed. Series hybrid with (limited size) battery.
We talked about this in last month's thread (of trucks driving through the
mountains).

UP has been painting "hybrid" on the sides of their locomotives but
since they don't have batteries, it's not really the same thing. The
RR just didn't want to screw around with a clutch.

Yeah. And constant power/torque is more important than accelleration/braking
for (freight) RRs.
So a battery is not necessary.

Norfolk and Western, now Norfolk Southern, used steam up until the
early '60s. Steam requires no clutch either.


Bret Cahill


"Southern Serves the South.
Look Ahead, Look South."

-- Southern RR slogan

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

John Larkin wrote:

On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 21:28:58 -0600, krw <krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzz> wrote:

In article <f76dncw4F5tQhd7UnZ2dnUVZ_o_inZ2d@giganews.com>,
boobooililililil@roadrunner.com says...
Bret Cahill wrote:
When you are off these interstates you run your hybrid electric or EV
on gas or batteries respectively and when you are on these interstates
you run off the grid.

Conventional drive trains could be used along side the newer until it
is cheaper to upgrade.

Phasing in digital TV is much more difficult.


Bret Cahill


Magnetic induction cable buried in road with pick up coils on vehicles
to run electric and charge batteries. Batteries used on secondary roads.
Total electric transportation.

You're not an electrical engineer, are you?

Not an engineer of any sort.

I thought he was a dirty janitor, AKA an unsanitary engineer.


--
http://improve-usenet.org/index.html

aioe.org, Goggle Groups, and Web TV users must request to be white
listed, or I will not see your messages.

If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in
your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm


There are two kinds of people on this earth:
The crazy, and the insane.
The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy.

 

[John Larkin]

On Sat, 13 Dec 2008 10:34:42 -0800 (PST), Bret Cahill
<BretCahill@peoplepc.com> wrote:

Because I'm allergic to unicorns. I'll use Highway 1.

At least you're no longer trying to fake a tech background.

Fake? I'm an EE, and I design electronics.

What do you do?

John

 

[John Larkin]

On Sat, 13 Dec 2008 11:16:04 -0800 (PST), Bret Cahill
<BretCahill@peoplepc.com> wrote:

When you are off these interstates you run your hybrid electric or EV
on gas or batteries respectively and when you are on these interstates
you run off the grid.

Conventional drive trains could be used along side the newer until it
is cheaper to upgrade.

Phasing in digital TV is much more difficult.

Bret Cahill

Why cant they use Fed funds to install a charging station at the rest
stops and truck stops?

Fed funds? Where do Fed funds come from?

The same place that bailed out Wall Street, no strings attached, with
$850 billion.

And who wants to hang out in a souvenir shop for two hours, every 100
miles, while your car is being charged?

Charging times can be reduced with smaller cells. The real problem is
the cost of the batteries is twice that of the electricity itself.

Imagine how many cars would be parked. A gas station fills a car in a
few minutes, and sometimes all 12 or so pumps are busy. Scale that to
2-hour fill-up times.

Truckers already spend 2 hours at every truck stop, whether they buy
fuel or not.

Anyway, unless you believe in the infinite oil theory, the only
plausible shovel ready solution is to start electrifying the highways.


Bret Cahill

Why panic now, when it's much more efficient to panic later? As we run

out of oil, prices will increase and people will adjust.

So relax.

John

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

John Larkin wrote:

On Sat, 13 Dec 2008 10:34:42 -0800 (PST), Bret Cahill
BretCahill@peoplepc.com> wrote:

Because I'm allergic to unicorns. I'll use Highway 1.

At least you're no longer trying to fake a tech background.

Fake? I'm an EE, and I design electronics.

What do you do?

Bret is a moron, and he fakes intelligence.


--
http://improve-usenet.org/index.html

aioe.org, Goggle Groups, and Web TV users must request to be white
listed, or I will not see your messages.

If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in
your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm


There are two kinds of people on this earth:
The crazy, and the insane.
The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy.

 

[krw]

In article <9TH0l.9999$c45.1647@nlpi065.nbdc.sbc.com>,
rob@verific.com says...

"krw" <krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzz> wrote in message news:MPG.23acfbb5938e68af98a447@news.individual.net...
In article <7YG0l.9810$yr3.8702@nlpi068.nbdc.sbc.com>,
rob@verific.com says...

"Bret Cahill" <BretCahill@aol.com> wrote in message news:b2f11646-1d42-49b4-9743-f5c706576b48@d42g2000prb.googlegroups.com...
.....

and most energy would be used during peak hours.
So plug-in hybrids, charged at night, make a lot more sense...

What about long haul trucks?


I want to bet that they (with all other heavy equipment) go series hybrid, just like diesel-electric locomotives did a long time
ago.

Weight helps a locomotive. It doesn't help a truck. The major
advantage of DE is torque range, something taken care of well by the
trucks transmission. DE has been used in heavy earthmovingmachines,
for some of the same reasons (low-end torque and weight) as it has
in locomotives. I don't see that happening with trucks, unless
perhaps it's with a gas turbine/electric or some such.


Series hybrid with a battery has a lot of advantages over plain ICE.

Locomotives have no batteries. Your argument is plain silly.

Some 'efficiency' related ones are here :
- regenerative braking and 'down-the-hill' energy recovery, as well as accelleration is all-electric (thus highly efficient).
- the ICE in a series hybrid only needs to provide power to overcome rulling and air drag losses, thus can be much smaller, thus
more efficient.

Not enough energy to bother with.

- the ICE in a series hybrid can run at highly efficient RPMs, thus more efficient.

Not enough savings to offset the weight.

Overall, it's not difficult to make a series hybrid with that is 3x more efficient than a ICE-only version.

3X??? You think you can get to 75% conversion efficiency?

Actually that is also the case for series-hybrid passenger vehicles. The 'Volt' for example gets 60 mpg when running with it's
generator only.

It's also the size of my glove box.

--
Keith

 

[krw]

In article <ded798a9-e2a2-46cf-b305-f5385a4811b4
@a29g2000pra.googlegroups.com>, BretCahill@aol.com says...

That's a political problem

Kind of like the political problem of GOP bottom fishing in the info
age.

All Repugs can get are fundies and trailer trash.

What a dumb shit.

Bret Cahill

--
Keith