Electric Cars Not Yet Viable

[bitrex]

On 6/26/19 8:22 PM, Tom Gardner wrote:

Curiously a "Which?" review of the Tesla 3 has fallen
into my inbox. A few extracts...

"This gives you a range of some 264 miles based on our
 tests, which mix urban, extra-urban and motorway driving
 - rather less than the claimed range of 329 miles.

"Tesla claims that 170 miles of range can be added in
 around half an hour, if you use the brand's roadside
 Supercharger network. Charging at home will require
 the installation of a dedicated high-capacity outlet,
 keeping charging times down to a few hours, rather than
 about 1.5 days using a domestic socket."

"However, the Autopilot system performed poorly in our tests.
 It didn't detect  variable speed limits, and when travelling
 on motorways that cross over other roads it often picked up
 the wrong speed limit and strongly reduced speed. Autopilot
 also often failed to assess traffic situations correctly,
 resulting in jerky deceleration and acceleration."

"The difference here is that Tesla is advertising it as
 self-driving technology – something it most definitely isn’t,
 and which would currently be illegal to use in the UK
 if it were. Autonomous technology which allows the car
 to take control of monitoring the driving environment
 is currently not allowed on British roads, and
 responsibility remains with the driver to maintain proper
 control.

" We’ve referred Tesla to the Advertising Standards
 Authority (ASA) regarding the Model 3’s self-driving claims,
 as we feel it could result in improper and dangerous use
 of these assistance systems.

Since those are excerpts, it would be better to read the
entire review - but you'll have to pay for that.

Nonetheless the autopilot's performance and legality are
of concern, as is the desirability of rewiring your house.

"Charging at home will require
the installation of a dedicated high-capacity outlet"

a 40 amp level 2 charger unit is plenty for many use cases and
installing one is not a complex job. it won't charge up the car in a
couple hours. it'll charge a 3 up ~150 miles overnight, how many people
are driving 150 miles a day every day goddamn.

The summary seems to make it out like you can either charge from a 120
volt outlet over 1.5 days or you have to install a three phase AC-DC
level 3 charger with a cable 4" in diameter to charge the car.

I don't put a lot of stock in reviews by reviewers who don't seem to
know important details of the technology they purport to be reviewing,
or do know them but seem to intentionally construct excluded-middle
propositions about the tech to make it seem cumbersome in a way it
actually isn't.

 

[Rick C]

On Wednesday, June 26, 2019 at 9:14:57 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:

On 6/26/19 8:22 PM, Tom Gardner wrote:
Curiously a "Which?" review of the Tesla 3 has fallen
into my inbox. A few extracts...

"This gives you a range of some 264 miles based on our
 tests, which mix urban, extra-urban and motorway driving
 - rather less than the claimed range of 329 miles.

"Tesla claims that 170 miles of range can be added in
 around half an hour, if you use the brand's roadside
 Supercharger network. Charging at home will require
 the installation of a dedicated high-capacity outlet,
 keeping charging times down to a few hours, rather than
 about 1.5 days using a domestic socket."

"However, the Autopilot system performed poorly in our tests.
 It didn't detect  variable speed limits, and when travelling
 on motorways that cross over other roads it often picked up
 the wrong speed limit and strongly reduced speed. Autopilot
 also often failed to assess traffic situations correctly,
 resulting in jerky deceleration and acceleration."

"The difference here is that Tesla is advertising it as
 self-driving technology – something it most definitely isn’t,
 and which would currently be illegal to use in the UK
 if it were. Autonomous technology which allows the car
 to take control of monitoring the driving environment
 is currently not allowed on British roads, and
 responsibility remains with the driver to maintain proper
 control.

" We’ve referred Tesla to the Advertising Standards
 Authority (ASA) regarding the Model 3’s self-driving claims,
 as we feel it could result in improper and dangerous use
 of these assistance systems.

Since those are excerpts, it would be better to read the
entire review - but you'll have to pay for that.

Nonetheless the autopilot's performance and legality are
of concern, as is the desirability of rewiring your house.

"Charging at home will require
the installation of a dedicated high-capacity outlet"

a 40 amp level 2 charger unit is plenty for many use cases and
installing one is not a complex job. it won't charge up the car in a
couple hours. it'll charge a 3 up ~150 miles overnight, how many people
are driving 150 miles a day every day goddamn.

A 40 amp, 240 volt circuit will completely top off an empty battery overnight unless it is arctic summer where the sun only goes below the horizon a couple of hours. The current is derated in the US to 80% so 32 amps or 8 kW.. 100 kWh in 12 hours.

Charging puts 4 to 5 miles on a model 3 for each kWh, so the rule of thumb is the same miles per hour as amps. You can get a Tesla wall connector (it's not correct to call them chargers) that will deliver up to 72 amps. The model 3 only accepts a max of 48 amps however, so 50 miles per hour.

The summary seems to make it out like you can either charge from a 120
volt outlet over 1.5 days or you have to install a three phase AC-DC
level 3 charger with a cable 4" in diameter to charge the car.

I don't put a lot of stock in reviews by reviewers who don't seem to
know important details of the technology they purport to be reviewing,
or do know them but seem to intentionally construct excluded-middle
propositions about the tech to make it seem cumbersome in a way it
actually isn't.

This sounds a lot like the Consumer Reports review which showed a lack of understanding of some aspects of the car.

--

Rick C.

++-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Rick C]

On Sunday, June 23, 2019 at 8:41:53 PM UTC-4, Cursitor Doom wrote:

And if there is no quantum leap in battery technology, they may never be
viable.


https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-06-23/inconvenient-truth-electric-cars

How about a quantum leap in charging technology?

The navigator in a Tesla usually prompts you to stop more often and charge with the battery in the sweet spot for faster charging. They also are installing new V3 chargers that provide up to 350 kW of power. These units provide an amazing charge rate at the lower half of the charge cycle.

"The vehicle was plugged in at a low 2% state of charge, quickly shot up to the full 250 kW power, and added 50% of capacity in 11 minutes and 29 seconds from the start of the charge session! Dragery went on to charge to 90% before closing out the session, giving us a wealth of new data on the Supercharger V3 charging curve.

A more typical charge session, plugging in at 10%, is almost as fast, adding 50% of range in about 12 and a half minutes."

"On Supercharger V3, the Tesla can recover 193 miles (311 km) of highway range in just 20 minutes (typically well over two and a half hours of highway driving). That’s about the duration between bathroom breaks for many folks, especially when there are kids on board. Three hours of onward highway range can be recovered in under 30 minutes."

https://cleantechnica.com/2019/06/24/tesla-model-3-on-supercharger-v3-adds-50-range-in-under-12-minutes-charts/

But I suppose even this is not enough for many.

--

Rick C.

++++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[keith wright]

On Wednesday, 26 June 2019 19:13:43 UTC-7, Rick C wrote:
....

Model 3 extended range is 325 mils now. A month or so ago they updated the software to extend it 10 or 15 miles.

It depends whether single or dual motor - the single motor is not available in the US in the long range version.

The longest range Model 3 on the Tesla web site is the Long Range dual motor at 310 miles.

The single motor LR version may be available in the UK.

kw

 

[Rick C]

On Wednesday, June 26, 2019 at 10:08:38 PM UTC-4, keith wright wrote:

On Wednesday, 26 June 2019 18:31:03 UTC-7, Rick C wrote:
On Wednesday, June 26, 2019 at 8:22:08 PM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:
Curiously a "Which?" review of the Tesla 3 has fallen
into my inbox. A few extracts...

"This gives you a range of some 264 miles based on our
tests, which mix urban, extra-urban and motorway driving
- rather less than the claimed range of 329 miles.

The advertised range is from EPA mandated testing. If you don't like the number blame the government, not Tesla. The 264 mile range of mixed use is not more realistic, it is of little value. The only time you care about range is on trips. When driving locally you plug in every night and start each day with a full tank. On trips you need enough range to reach a charger which can be close or far depending, but a 150 mile range always gets you there. With the true range you'll get on trips you often can skip chargers since they are spaced about 100 miles apart. You don't need to guess, the car tracks usage and calculates the remaining range in real time. The built in navigator recommends charging stops when you need them.
...

'Which' is UK magazine so the ranges are presumably from the local equivalent to the EPA rating.

It doesn't say which rating system was used but the NEDC measurements were extremely optimistic for gasoline cars, the newer systems is WLTP which is supposedly more realistic but I gather still more generous than the EPA.

The 329 miles of range quoted for the model 3 is probably the equivalent of the 310 mile EPA rating.

kw

Model 3 extended range is 325 mils now. A month or so ago they updated the software to extend it 10 or 15 miles.

--

Rick C.

+++- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+++- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Rick C]

On Wednesday, June 26, 2019 at 9:57:47 PM UTC-4, keith wright wrote:

On Wednesday, 26 June 2019 18:14:57 UTC-7, bitrex wrote:
...
"Charging at home will require
the installation of a dedicated high-capacity outlet"

a 40 amp level 2 charger unit is plenty for many use cases and
installing one is not a complex job. it won't charge up the car in a
couple hours. it'll charge a 3 up ~150 miles overnight, how many people
are driving 150 miles a day every day goddamn.

The summary seems to make it out like you can either charge from a 120
volt outlet over 1.5 days or you have to install a three phase AC-DC
level 3 charger with a cable 4" in diameter to charge the car.

...

'Which' is a UK magazine so a normal wall socket can do up to 2-3kW (as a reference other cars in the UK seem to be set to 10A resulting in 2.4kW).

I did forget that this was a UK magazine. I have talked about this with folks from there and I never got a clear answer, but it seems like they do 13 amp outlets easily, but to get more they wire 3 phase, which *is* a lot more hassle... at least I guess so. They talk about totally different wiring methods than we use and smaller service to the house, so maybe higher current 240 volt outlets aren't so easy. On the other hand, they tend to drive shorter distances so the daily need for charging is not as much. The 3 kW available from a standard outlet gets you around 180 miles on a model 3... assuming they don't do the derating thing that we do in the US. Can someone confirm that?

In the UK there are a number of smaller EVs available with smaller batteries and higher mileage. I don't know the names, but they seem to work well according to the owners.

--

Rick C.

++-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[keith wright]

On Wednesday, 26 June 2019 18:31:03 UTC-7, Rick C wrote:

On Wednesday, June 26, 2019 at 8:22:08 PM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:
Curiously a "Which?" review of the Tesla 3 has fallen
into my inbox. A few extracts...

"This gives you a range of some 264 miles based on our
tests, which mix urban, extra-urban and motorway driving
- rather less than the claimed range of 329 miles.

The advertised range is from EPA mandated testing. If you don't like the number blame the government, not Tesla. The 264 mile range of mixed use is not more realistic, it is of little value. The only time you care about range is on trips. When driving locally you plug in every night and start each day with a full tank. On trips you need enough range to reach a charger which can be close or far depending, but a 150 mile range always gets you there. With the true range you'll get on trips you often can skip chargers since they are spaced about 100 miles apart. You don't need to guess, the car tracks usage and calculates the remaining range in real time. The built in navigator recommends charging stops when you need them.
....

'Which' is UK magazine so the ranges are presumably from the local equivalent to the EPA rating.

It doesn't say which rating system was used but the NEDC measurements were extremely optimistic for gasoline cars, the newer systems is WLTP which is supposedly more realistic but I gather still more generous than the EPA.

The 329 miles of range quoted for the model 3 is probably the equivalent of the 310 mile EPA rating.

kw

 

[bitrex]

On 6/26/19 9:57 PM, keith wright wrote:

On Wednesday, 26 June 2019 18:14:57 UTC-7, bitrex wrote:
...
"Charging at home will require
the installation of a dedicated high-capacity outlet"

a 40 amp level 2 charger unit is plenty for many use cases and
installing one is not a complex job. it won't charge up the car in a
couple hours. it'll charge a 3 up ~150 miles overnight, how many people
are driving 150 miles a day every day goddamn.

The summary seems to make it out like you can either charge from a 120
volt outlet over 1.5 days or you have to install a three phase AC-DC
level 3 charger with a cable 4" in diameter to charge the car.

...

'Which' is a UK magazine so a normal wall socket can do up to 2-3kW (as a reference other cars in the UK seem to be set to 10A resulting in 2.4kW).

kw

They still got naked chicks in news magazines there? Just selling porn
in newspapers on the rack sitting next to Time? weird. that's supposed
to be behind the counter you have to wear a trench coat and sunglasses
to buy it here.

 

[bitrex]

On 6/26/19 9:57 PM, keith wright wrote:

On Wednesday, 26 June 2019 18:14:57 UTC-7, bitrex wrote:
...
"Charging at home will require
the installation of a dedicated high-capacity outlet"

a 40 amp level 2 charger unit is plenty for many use cases and
installing one is not a complex job. it won't charge up the car in a
couple hours. it'll charge a 3 up ~150 miles overnight, how many people
are driving 150 miles a day every day goddamn.

The summary seems to make it out like you can either charge from a 120
volt outlet over 1.5 days or you have to install a three phase AC-DC
level 3 charger with a cable 4" in diameter to charge the car.

...

'Which' is a UK magazine so a normal wall socket can do up to 2-3kW (as a reference other cars in the UK seem to be set to 10A resulting in 2.4kW).

kw

Ah I see. Yes there was a thread a lil bit ago about the particular
difficulties of charging in the UK

 

[keith wright]

On Wednesday, 26 June 2019 18:14:57 UTC-7, bitrex wrote:
....

"Charging at home will require
the installation of a dedicated high-capacity outlet"

a 40 amp level 2 charger unit is plenty for many use cases and
installing one is not a complex job. it won't charge up the car in a
couple hours. it'll charge a 3 up ~150 miles overnight, how many people
are driving 150 miles a day every day goddamn.

The summary seems to make it out like you can either charge from a 120
volt outlet over 1.5 days or you have to install a three phase AC-DC
level 3 charger with a cable 4" in diameter to charge the car.

....

'Which' is a UK magazine so a normal wall socket can do up to 2-3kW (as a reference other cars in the UK seem to be set to 10A resulting in 2.4kW).

kw

 

[bitrex]

On 6/26/19 9:42 PM, Rick C wrote:

On Wednesday, June 26, 2019 at 9:14:57 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
On 6/26/19 8:22 PM, Tom Gardner wrote:
Curiously a "Which?" review of the Tesla 3 has fallen
into my inbox. A few extracts...

"This gives you a range of some 264 miles based on our
 tests, which mix urban, extra-urban and motorway driving
 - rather less than the claimed range of 329 miles.

"Tesla claims that 170 miles of range can be added in
 around half an hour, if you use the brand's roadside
 Supercharger network. Charging at home will require
 the installation of a dedicated high-capacity outlet,
 keeping charging times down to a few hours, rather than
 about 1.5 days using a domestic socket."

"However, the Autopilot system performed poorly in our tests.
 It didn't detect  variable speed limits, and when travelling
 on motorways that cross over other roads it often picked up
 the wrong speed limit and strongly reduced speed. Autopilot
 also often failed to assess traffic situations correctly,
 resulting in jerky deceleration and acceleration."

"The difference here is that Tesla is advertising it as
 self-driving technology – something it most definitely isn’t,
 and which would currently be illegal to use in the UK
 if it were. Autonomous technology which allows the car
 to take control of monitoring the driving environment
 is currently not allowed on British roads, and
 responsibility remains with the driver to maintain proper
 control.

" We’ve referred Tesla to the Advertising Standards
 Authority (ASA) regarding the Model 3’s self-driving claims,
 as we feel it could result in improper and dangerous use
 of these assistance systems.

Since those are excerpts, it would be better to read the
entire review - but you'll have to pay for that.

Nonetheless the autopilot's performance and legality are
of concern, as is the desirability of rewiring your house.

"Charging at home will require
the installation of a dedicated high-capacity outlet"

a 40 amp level 2 charger unit is plenty for many use cases and
installing one is not a complex job. it won't charge up the car in a
couple hours. it'll charge a 3 up ~150 miles overnight, how many people
are driving 150 miles a day every day goddamn.

A 40 amp, 240 volt circuit will completely top off an empty battery overnight unless it is arctic summer where the sun only goes below the horizon a couple of hours. The current is derated in the US to 80% so 32 amps or 8 kW. 100 kWh in 12 hours.

Charging puts 4 to 5 miles on a model 3 for each kWh, so the rule of thumb is the same miles per hour as amps. You can get a Tesla wall connector (it's not correct to call them chargers) that will deliver up to 72 amps. The model 3 only accepts a max of 48 amps however, so 50 miles per hour.


The summary seems to make it out like you can either charge from a 120
volt outlet over 1.5 days or you have to install a three phase AC-DC
level 3 charger with a cable 4" in diameter to charge the car.

I don't put a lot of stock in reviews by reviewers who don't seem to
know important details of the technology they purport to be reviewing,
or do know them but seem to intentionally construct excluded-middle
propositions about the tech to make it seem cumbersome in a way it
actually isn't.

This sounds a lot like the Consumer Reports review which showed a lack of understanding of some aspects of the car.

acting like the whole install-a-dedicated-circuit thing is some
nightmare scenario and not the 3 hour job that electricians do day in
day out scenario that it is, is FUD-ding it from the get-go. oh holy
shit an outlet. they love going on and on about the outlet

 

[bitrex]

On 6/26/19 10:09 PM, Rick C wrote:

On Wednesday, June 26, 2019 at 9:57:47 PM UTC-4, keith wright wrote:
On Wednesday, 26 June 2019 18:14:57 UTC-7, bitrex wrote:
...
"Charging at home will require
the installation of a dedicated high-capacity outlet"

a 40 amp level 2 charger unit is plenty for many use cases and
installing one is not a complex job. it won't charge up the car in a
couple hours. it'll charge a 3 up ~150 miles overnight, how many people
are driving 150 miles a day every day goddamn.

The summary seems to make it out like you can either charge from a 120
volt outlet over 1.5 days or you have to install a three phase AC-DC
level 3 charger with a cable 4" in diameter to charge the car.

...

'Which' is a UK magazine so a normal wall socket can do up to 2-3kW (as a reference other cars in the UK seem to be set to 10A resulting in 2.4kW).

I did forget that this was a UK magazine. I have talked about this with folks from there and I never got a clear answer, but it seems like they do 13 amp outlets easily, but to get more they wire 3 phase, which *is* a lot more hassle... at least I guess so. They talk about totally different wiring methods than we use and smaller service to the house, so maybe higher current 240 volt outlets aren't so easy. On the other hand, they tend to drive shorter distances so the daily need for charging is not as much. The 3 kW available from a standard outlet gets you around 180 miles on a model 3... assuming they don't do the derating thing that we do in the US. Can someone confirm that?

In the UK there are a number of smaller EVs available with smaller batteries and higher mileage. I don't know the names, but they seem to work well according to the owners.

I believe it's common in the UK and Europe to have smaller per-dwelling
or per apartment (flat?) structure distribution transformer/pole pig as
compared to the US where there's usually one large pole pig to supply a
neighborhood

 

bitrex <user@example.net> wrote in news:8nPQE.3256$564.305@fx12.iad:

The real trick is to park an all-electric outdoors overnight at
below-0 temps. Without running an extension cord to the battery
heater.

You can apparently use a phone app to set your desired departure
time and the car will start warming up the systems ahead of time
so the cabin is heated and the battery and electronics loops are
at temp. I've never used this feature myself never really needed
it.

IIRC, this guy is stuck on LA batteries. The new batteries actually
perform just fine at lower temperatures, compared to lead acid.

Did not say it was their ideal operating point, but it is not
anywhere near the hinderance it was/is for lead acid batteries.

 

On Wed, 26 Jun 2019 21:14:52 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

On 6/26/19 8:22 PM, Tom Gardner wrote:
Curiously a "Which?" review of the Tesla 3 has fallen
into my inbox. A few extracts...

"This gives you a range of some 264 miles based on our
 tests, which mix urban, extra-urban and motorway driving
 - rather less than the claimed range of 329 miles.

"Tesla claims that 170 miles of range can be added in
 around half an hour, if you use the brand's roadside
 Supercharger network. Charging at home will require
 the installation of a dedicated high-capacity outlet,
 keeping charging times down to a few hours, rather than
 about 1.5 days using a domestic socket."

"However, the Autopilot system performed poorly in our tests.
 It didn't detect  variable speed limits, and when travelling
 on motorways that cross over other roads it often picked up
 the wrong speed limit and strongly reduced speed. Autopilot
 also often failed to assess traffic situations correctly,
 resulting in jerky deceleration and acceleration."

"The difference here is that Tesla is advertising it as
 self-driving technology – something it most definitely isn’t,
 and which would currently be illegal to use in the UK
 if it were. Autonomous technology which allows the car
 to take control of monitoring the driving environment
 is currently not allowed on British roads, and
 responsibility remains with the driver to maintain proper
 control.

" We’ve referred Tesla to the Advertising Standards
 Authority (ASA) regarding the Model 3’s self-driving claims,
 as we feel it could result in improper and dangerous use
 of these assistance systems.

Since those are excerpts, it would be better to read the
entire review - but you'll have to pay for that.

Nonetheless the autopilot's performance and legality are
of concern, as is the desirability of rewiring your house.

"Charging at home will require
the installation of a dedicated high-capacity outlet"

a 40 amp level 2 charger unit is plenty for many use cases and
installing one is not a complex job. it won't charge up the car in a
couple hours. it'll charge a 3 up ~150 miles overnight, how many people
are driving 150 miles a day every day goddamn.

The summary seems to make it out like you can either charge from a 120
volt outlet over 1.5 days or you have to install a three phase AC-DC
level 3 charger with a cable 4" in diameter to charge the car.

In Europe the ordinary single phase sockets are fused with 10 A at
nominally 230 V (2 kW), sometimes also 13 or 16 A (up to 3 kW).

The smallest 3 phase socket is fused with 3x16 A (11 kW), so if there
are space for three extra fuses in the distribution panel, adding a
3x16 A outdoor socket should be easy, but may also need the addition
of RCDs. In some installations there might already be a spare 3x16 A
socket indoors close to the distribution panel, just replace this with
an outdoor socket.

The next standard size 3x32 A (22 kW) might be a bit trickier if the
feeder cable to the distribution panel isn't thick enough. Thus you
might have to install a cut-out relay to disconnect the charger, when
a priority load (such as electric stove) is used.

I don't put a lot of stock in reviews by reviewers who don't seem to
know important details of the technology they purport to be reviewing,
or do know them but seem to intentionally construct excluded-middle
propositions about the tech to make it seem cumbersome in a way it
actually isn't.

 

On Wed, 26 Jun 2019 23:42:43 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

On 6/26/19 10:09 PM, Rick C wrote:
On Wednesday, June 26, 2019 at 9:57:47 PM UTC-4, keith wright wrote:
On Wednesday, 26 June 2019 18:14:57 UTC-7, bitrex wrote:
...
"Charging at home will require
the installation of a dedicated high-capacity outlet"

a 40 amp level 2 charger unit is plenty for many use cases and
installing one is not a complex job. it won't charge up the car in a
couple hours. it'll charge a 3 up ~150 miles overnight, how many people
are driving 150 miles a day every day goddamn.

The summary seems to make it out like you can either charge from a 120
volt outlet over 1.5 days or you have to install a three phase AC-DC
level 3 charger with a cable 4" in diameter to charge the car.

...

'Which' is a UK magazine so a normal wall socket can do up to 2-3kW (as a reference other cars in the UK seem to be set to 10A resulting in 2.4kW).

I did forget that this was a UK magazine. I have talked about this with folks from there and I never got a clear answer, but it seems like they do 13 amp outlets easily, but to get more they wire 3 phase, which *is* a lot more hassle... at least I guess so. They talk about totally different wiring methods than we use and smaller service to the house, so maybe higher current 240 volt outlets aren't so easy. On the other hand, they tend to drive shorter distances so the daily need for charging is not as much. The 3 kW available from a standard outlet gets you around 180 miles on a model 3... assuming they don't do the derating thing that we do in the US. Can someone confirm that?

In the UK there are a number of smaller EVs available with smaller batteries and higher mileage. I don't know the names, but they seem to work well according to the owners.


I believe it's common in the UK and Europe to have smaller per-dwelling
or per apartment (flat?) structure distribution transformer/pole pig as
compared to the US where there's usually one large pole pig to supply a
neighborhood

It is the other way around. In Europe pole mounted transformers are
typically 100-315 kVA feeding dozens of detached houses up to several
hundred meters from the distribution transformer.

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 27/06/19 03:21, Rick C wrote:

On Sunday, June 23, 2019 at 8:41:53 PM UTC-4, Cursitor Doom wrote:
And if there is no quantum leap in battery technology, they may never be
viable.


https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-06-23/inconvenient-truth-electric-cars

How about a quantum leap in charging technology?

Zerohedge has too many undisclosed Agendas for it to
be worth considering.

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 27/06/19 02:42, Rick C wrote:

This sounds a lot like the Consumer Reports review which showed a lack of
understanding of some aspects of the car.

I suspect the Consumer Reports is the US equivalent of
Which?, but I can't be certain.

I certainly wouldn't trust anything Which? said without
due consideration, and wouldn't buy anything solely on
their recommendation. However, they do indicate the
important questions that need consideration before a
purchase.

They are also commercially disinterested and do an
effective job of representing consumer interests as
opposed to commercial or government interests. Hence
they are one of the few organisations allowed to bring
"super complaints" to the authorities for investigation.

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 27/06/19 02:30, Rick C wrote:
> The only time you care about range is on trips.

It is good that few people use cars for "trips", and
that "trip" can always be preplanned.

This all sounds about right. The "dedicated high-capacity outlet" is 240
volts, amps between 30 and 90. Expense is pretty minimal.

Really?

Give us an example price for the UK. We are all ears.

Note that in other threads you have somewhat belatedly
and quietly acknowledged that there are significant
differences between the UK and US w.r.t. charging.


> I'd love to see one of these "ads". They don't exist.

I'm sure you are well aware of how the advertising
industry is *very* adept about not saying something
but leaving people with the impression that they have
claimed it.

Besides, there are enough journalists and shills to make
such claims for them!

Since those are excerpts, it would be better to read the entire review -
but you'll have to pay for that.

Nonetheless the autopilot's performance and legality are of concern, as is
the desirability of rewiring your house.

Lol! Adding a 240 volt outlet is such a trivial thing to complain about.
It's like a dryer or a range. How petty can you be? If a gas supply at home
could be added so easily virtually everyone would have it. But instead you
have to visit a gas station, where it is and when it is open rather than just
hook up at home.

Virtually everyone in cities /does/ have a gas
supply at home.

Since you are making the claims about cost, please
back them up with example quotations in GBP.

There is no question about the "legality" of the auto-pilot. You are
thinking of the full-self-driving which while available to buy, is not
presently functional.

The mind boggles.

It won't be available until the issues are ironed out
and the software if fully operable. Paying for full-self-driving gives you
what they call Navigate-on-autopilot which simply allows the car to take
exits off the highway if you enable it to.

The auto-pilot and full-self-driving are not part of the car, they are
options. If you don't like them, don't order them.

If they are sold, people will buy them, and expect them
to work.

If there is a collision due to a Tesla suddenly in front
suddenly braking to comply with a speed limit on a
*different* road, who gets sued. The driver, manufacturer,
engineer?

If you provide an answer to that, then you demonstrate you
don't know what you are talking about.

 

[Bill Sloman]

On Wednesday, June 26, 2019 at 9:28:10 PM UTC+2, John Doe wrote:

--
Bill Sloman <bill.sloman ieee.org> wrote:

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Subject: Re: Electric Cars Not Yet Viable
From: Bill Sloman <bill.sloman ieee.org
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On Tuesday, June 25, 2019 at 12:12:00 AM UTC+2, John Doe wrote:
John Larkin <jjlarkin highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

Tom Gardner
spamjunk blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
Rick C wrote:

EVS DON'T NEED CHARGING STATIONS WHEN PEOPLE CAN CHARGE AT HOME!!!

Did that get through?

MANY CAN'T!!!

Did that get through?

He probably lives in a ranch-style house with a lawn and a carport and
a swimming pool in the burbs somewhere. Not everybody does.

I park on the street. I couldn't run an extension cord to my car, not
that I'd want an electric car.

There's an article in today's newspaper about a bunch of people who
ride electric unicycles. Enthusiasts. Same idea.

Me having experience with an electric unicycle (the experience is what I
bought it for) I can tell you that is apples and oranges. It's for fun
unless you can go without carrying anything. Not comparable to most
electric vehicles. And, currently they are probably inefficient, besides
requiring a full set of protective gear.

Unicycles don't require protective gear. If you start losing control you just step off.

The tall ones with chain drives are a different proposition, but the direct pedal drive one that I had and could ride (if not all that far) never damaged anybody.

snipped pretentious and irrelevant platitudes

The problem with the argument "you can just step off" is that, of
course, the idiot does not know when an obstacle will cause it to
fall (otherwise it would avoid the object), therefore there
will be imbalance from the very start of the fall.

Being "imbalanced" on the unicycle doesn't make you imbalanced as soon as you've got your feet off the pedals. You step off and the unicycle falls over.

Searching YouTube for (fast electric unicycle) clearly shows how
wrong the regular Australian troll is. Practically everybody is
wearing full protective gear. Even the 10th result about an ordinary
electric unicycle (street riding) shows an intelligent guy wearing a
helmet.

I wasn't talking about "fast electric unicycles" but rather the minimal unicycle that I'm familiar with. I did make an exception for taller unicycles, where "stepping off" is more problematic.

Some people argue a helmet isn't necessary while riding a bicycle on
the street, too.

Bicycles go faster. Hit something the wrong way at regular cycling speeds and you can end up dead or brain damaged. I've owned a couple of cycling helmets, and wore one in the Netherlands where they aren't compulsory or frequnetly worn.

But the reason it's mandated by law in many areas
is not because we think the regular Australian troll's head will
damage something, rather wearing a helmet is mandated because we do
not want the idiot to become a lifelong burden on us.

I was talking about the basic unicycle which doesn't go fast enough to be dangerous.

As research shows... Wearing protective gear while on an electric
unicycle is important despite this regular Australian troll's
anecdotes about riding an ordinary unicycle on flat level terrain...

Sadly for John Doe's point, I wasn't talking about electric unicycles.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 27/06/19 07:20, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:

On Wed, 26 Jun 2019 23:42:43 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

On 6/26/19 10:09 PM, Rick C wrote:
On Wednesday, June 26, 2019 at 9:57:47 PM UTC-4, keith wright wrote:
On Wednesday, 26 June 2019 18:14:57 UTC-7, bitrex wrote:
...
"Charging at home will require
the installation of a dedicated high-capacity outlet"

a 40 amp level 2 charger unit is plenty for many use cases and
installing one is not a complex job. it won't charge up the car in a
couple hours. it'll charge a 3 up ~150 miles overnight, how many people
are driving 150 miles a day every day goddamn.

The summary seems to make it out like you can either charge from a 120
volt outlet over 1.5 days or you have to install a three phase AC-DC
level 3 charger with a cable 4" in diameter to charge the car.

...

'Which' is a UK magazine so a normal wall socket can do up to 2-3kW (as a reference other cars in the UK seem to be set to 10A resulting in 2.4kW).

I did forget that this was a UK magazine. I have talked about this with folks from there and I never got a clear answer, but it seems like they do 13 amp outlets easily, but to get more they wire 3 phase, which *is* a lot more hassle... at least I guess so. They talk about totally different wiring methods than we use and smaller service to the house, so maybe higher current 240 volt outlets aren't so easy. On the other hand, they tend to drive shorter distances so the daily need for charging is not as much. The 3 kW available from a standard outlet gets you around 180 miles on a model 3... assuming they don't do the derating thing that we do in the US. Can someone confirm that?

In the UK there are a number of smaller EVs available with smaller batteries and higher mileage. I don't know the names, but they seem to work well according to the owners.


I believe it's common in the UK and Europe to have smaller per-dwelling
or per apartment (flat?) structure distribution transformer/pole pig as
compared to the US where there's usually one large pole pig to supply a
neighborhood

It is the other way around. In Europe pole mounted transformers are
typically 100-315 kVA feeding dozens of detached houses up to several
hundred meters from the distribution transformer.

Here you /never/ see pole mounted transformers for
domestic properties.