Electric Cars Not Yet Viable

[bitrex]

On 6/27/19 10:31 AM, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:

On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 07:55:53 +0100, Tom Gardner
spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

On 27/06/19 07:20, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jun 2019 23:42:43 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

On 6/26/19 10:09 PM, Rick C wrote:
On Wednesday, June 26, 2019 at 9:57:47 PM UTC-4, keith wright wrote:
On Wednesday, 26 June 2019 18:14:57 UTC-7, bitrex wrote:
...
"Charging at home will require
the installation of a dedicated high-capacity outlet"

a 40 amp level 2 charger unit is plenty for many use cases and
installing one is not a complex job. it won't charge up the car in a
couple hours. it'll charge a 3 up ~150 miles overnight, how many people
are driving 150 miles a day every day goddamn.

The summary seems to make it out like you can either charge from a 120
volt outlet over 1.5 days or you have to install a three phase AC-DC
level 3 charger with a cable 4" in diameter to charge the car.

...

'Which' is a UK magazine so a normal wall socket can do up to 2-3kW (as a reference other cars in the UK seem to be set to 10A resulting in 2.4kW).

I did forget that this was a UK magazine. I have talked about this with folks from there and I never got a clear answer, but it seems like they do 13 amp outlets easily, but to get more they wire 3 phase, which *is* a lot more hassle... at least I guess so. They talk about totally different wiring methods than we use and smaller service to the house, so maybe higher current 240 volt outlets aren't so easy. On the other hand, they tend to drive shorter distances so the daily need for charging is not as much. The 3 kW available from a standard outlet gets you around 180 miles on a model 3... assuming they don't do the derating thing that we do in the US. Can someone confirm that?

In the UK there are a number of smaller EVs available with smaller batteries and higher mileage. I don't know the names, but they seem to work well according to the owners.


I believe it's common in the UK and Europe to have smaller per-dwelling
or per apartment (flat?) structure distribution transformer/pole pig as
compared to the US where there's usually one large pole pig to supply a
neighborhood

It is the other way around. In Europe pole mounted transformers are
typically 100-315 kVA feeding dozens of detached houses up to several
hundred meters from the distribution transformer.

Here you /never/ see pole mounted transformers for
domestic properties.

So you have those low transformer buildings every few hundred meters
feeding the houses around it.

In Finland, you can get at least a 3x63 A 230/400 V up to 600 m from
the (ground or pole mounted) distribution transformer from most
electric companies.

In the US, due to lower voltage and hence large currents, a
distribution "pig" transformer only serves one or at most a few
houses.

I'm looking up and down a residential street in Providence, RI right now
and it's definitely not that way here, at least. The wiring isn't below
ground. not a pole pig in sight. It's sort of a warren of windy
interconnecting streets though I can't see that far. They're around,
though. Must be one around here somewhere...

 

This is where fleet learning comes in handy. Initially, the vehicle fleet will take no action except to note the position of road signs, bridges and other stationary objects, mapping the world according to radar. The car computer will then silently compare when it would have braked to the driver action and upload that to the Tesla database. If several cars drive safely past a given radar object, whether Autopilot is turned on or off, then that object is added to the geocoded whitelist."

oh boy, the black hats are going to have a load of fun with this.
m

 

[whit3rd]

On Tuesday, June 25, 2019 at 7:47:16 PM UTC-7, bitrex wrote:

On 6/24/19 3:52 PM, omnilobe@gmail.com wrote:
A battery exchange station will replace the gas station.
It is faster to remove a battery block and put a fresh
block in ...

The flat packs weigh the better part of a 1000 lbs and fill most of the
negative space under the floor of the car how do you propose to swap
them out rapidly? they're part of the structure of the car

Lift with jack, detach locks, slide out with forklift,
hoist free with crane, or just pump a slurry containing depleted
anode material out and pump new slurry in.

There's no 'part of the structure of the car' that cannot be
a replaceable part, if engineered suitably.

 

[whit3rd]

On Wednesday, June 26, 2019 at 10:13:41 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:

The real trick is to park an all-electric outdoors overnight at
below-0 temps. Without running an extension cord to the battery
heater.

Why? The batteries aren't gonna freeze, just a few minutes
of use and they'll warm themselves up.

 

[Lasse Langwadt Christense]

fredag den 28. juni 2019 kl. 01.12.45 UTC+2 skrev John Larkin:

On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 17:31:20 +0300, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:

On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 07:55:53 +0100, Tom Gardner
spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

On 27/06/19 07:20, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jun 2019 23:42:43 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

On 6/26/19 10:09 PM, Rick C wrote:
On Wednesday, June 26, 2019 at 9:57:47 PM UTC-4, keith wright wrote:
On Wednesday, 26 June 2019 18:14:57 UTC-7, bitrex wrote:
...
"Charging at home will require
the installation of a dedicated high-capacity outlet"

a 40 amp level 2 charger unit is plenty for many use cases and
installing one is not a complex job. it won't charge up the car in a
couple hours. it'll charge a 3 up ~150 miles overnight, how many people
are driving 150 miles a day every day goddamn.

The summary seems to make it out like you can either charge from a 120
volt outlet over 1.5 days or you have to install a three phase AC-DC
level 3 charger with a cable 4" in diameter to charge the car.

...

'Which' is a UK magazine so a normal wall socket can do up to 2-3kW (as a reference other cars in the UK seem to be set to 10A resulting in 2..4kW).

I did forget that this was a UK magazine. I have talked about this with folks from there and I never got a clear answer, but it seems like they do 13 amp outlets easily, but to get more they wire 3 phase, which *is* a lot more hassle... at least I guess so. They talk about totally different wiring methods than we use and smaller service to the house, so maybe higher current 240 volt outlets aren't so easy. On the other hand, they tend to drive shorter distances so the daily need for charging is not as much. The 3 kW available from a standard outlet gets you around 180 miles on a model 3... assuming they don't do the derating thing that we do in the US. Can someone confirm that?

In the UK there are a number of smaller EVs available with smaller batteries and higher mileage. I don't know the names, but they seem to work well according to the owners.


I believe it's common in the UK and Europe to have smaller per-dwelling
or per apartment (flat?) structure distribution transformer/pole pig as
compared to the US where there's usually one large pole pig to supply a
neighborhood

It is the other way around. In Europe pole mounted transformers are
typically 100-315 kVA feeding dozens of detached houses up to several
hundred meters from the distribution transformer.

Here you /never/ see pole mounted transformers for
domestic properties.

So you have those low transformer buildings every few hundred meters
feeding the houses around it.

In Finland, you can get at least a 3x63 A 230/400 V up to 600 m from
the (ground or pole mounted) distribution transformer from most
electric companies.

In the US, due to lower voltage and hence large currents, a
distribution "pig" transformer only serves one or at most a few
houses.

That's silly. The size of a transfomer depends on KVAs, not voltage.

My house is 120-0-120. In other words, it is fed 240 volts.

and here we get 3*240V using only one extra wire

 

[John Larkin]

On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 17:31:20 +0300, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:

On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 07:55:53 +0100, Tom Gardner
spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

On 27/06/19 07:20, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jun 2019 23:42:43 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

On 6/26/19 10:09 PM, Rick C wrote:
On Wednesday, June 26, 2019 at 9:57:47 PM UTC-4, keith wright wrote:
On Wednesday, 26 June 2019 18:14:57 UTC-7, bitrex wrote:
...
"Charging at home will require
the installation of a dedicated high-capacity outlet"

a 40 amp level 2 charger unit is plenty for many use cases and
installing one is not a complex job. it won't charge up the car in a
couple hours. it'll charge a 3 up ~150 miles overnight, how many people
are driving 150 miles a day every day goddamn.

The summary seems to make it out like you can either charge from a 120
volt outlet over 1.5 days or you have to install a three phase AC-DC
level 3 charger with a cable 4" in diameter to charge the car.

...

'Which' is a UK magazine so a normal wall socket can do up to 2-3kW (as a reference other cars in the UK seem to be set to 10A resulting in 2.4kW).

I did forget that this was a UK magazine. I have talked about this with folks from there and I never got a clear answer, but it seems like they do 13 amp outlets easily, but to get more they wire 3 phase, which *is* a lot more hassle... at least I guess so. They talk about totally different wiring methods than we use and smaller service to the house, so maybe higher current 240 volt outlets aren't so easy. On the other hand, they tend to drive shorter distances so the daily need for charging is not as much. The 3 kW available from a standard outlet gets you around 180 miles on a model 3... assuming they don't do the derating thing that we do in the US. Can someone confirm that?

In the UK there are a number of smaller EVs available with smaller batteries and higher mileage. I don't know the names, but they seem to work well according to the owners.


I believe it's common in the UK and Europe to have smaller per-dwelling
or per apartment (flat?) structure distribution transformer/pole pig as
compared to the US where there's usually one large pole pig to supply a
neighborhood

It is the other way around. In Europe pole mounted transformers are
typically 100-315 kVA feeding dozens of detached houses up to several
hundred meters from the distribution transformer.

Here you /never/ see pole mounted transformers for
domestic properties.

So you have those low transformer buildings every few hundred meters
feeding the houses around it.

In Finland, you can get at least a 3x63 A 230/400 V up to 600 m from
the (ground or pole mounted) distribution transformer from most
electric companies.

In the US, due to lower voltage and hence large currents, a
distribution "pig" transformer only serves one or at most a few
houses.

That's silly. The size of a transfomer depends on KVAs, not voltage.

My house is 120-0-120. In other words, it is fed 240 volts.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing precision measurement

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

 

[John Larkin]

On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 15:07:05 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com>
wrote:

On Wednesday, June 26, 2019 at 10:13:41 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:

The real trick is to park an all-electric outdoors overnight at
below-0 temps. Without running an extension cord to the battery
heater.

Why? The batteries aren't gonna freeze, just a few minutes
of use and they'll warm themselves up.

Google knows.

https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/cold-weather-range-loss

https://tomharrisonjr.com/tesla-model-3-cold-weather-tips-e8db94afb1eb

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/06/aaa-confirms-what-tesla-bmw-nissan-ev-owners-suspected-of-cold-weather.html


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing precision measurement

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

 

[Sjouke Burry]

On 27.06.19 8:55, Tom Gardner wrote:

On 27/06/19 07:20, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jun 2019 23:42:43 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

On 6/26/19 10:09 PM, Rick C wrote:
On Wednesday, June 26, 2019 at 9:57:47 PM UTC-4, keith wright wrote:
On Wednesday, 26 June 2019 18:14:57 UTC-7, bitrex wrote:
...
"Charging at home will require
the installation of a dedicated high-capacity outlet"

a 40 amp level 2 charger unit is plenty for many use cases and
installing one is not a complex job. it won't charge up the car in a
couple hours. it'll charge a 3 up ~150 miles overnight, how many people
are driving 150 miles a day every day goddamn.

The summary seems to make it out like you can either charge from a 120
volt outlet over 1.5 days or you have to install a three phase AC-DC
level 3 charger with a cable 4" in diameter to charge the car.

...

'Which' is a UK magazine so a normal wall socket can do up to 2-3kW (as a reference other cars in the UK seem to be set to 10A resulting in 2.4kW).

I did forget that this was a UK magazine. I have talked about this with folks from there and I never got a clear answer, but it seems like they do 13 amp outlets easily, but to get more they wire 3 phase, which *is* a lot more hassle... at least I guess so. They talk about totally different wiring methods than we use and smaller service to the house, so maybe higher current 240 volt outlets aren't so easy. On the other hand, they tend to drive shorter distances so the daily need for charging is not as much. The 3 kW available from a standard outlet gets you around 180 miles on a model 3... assuming they don't do the derating thing that we do in the US. Can someone confirm that?

In the UK there are a number of smaller EVs available with smaller batteries and higher mileage. I don't know the names, but they seem to work well according to the owners.


I believe it's common in the UK and Europe to have smaller per-dwelling
or per apartment (flat?) structure distribution transformer/pole pig as
compared to the US where there's usually one large pole pig to supply a
neighborhood

It is the other way around. In Europe pole mounted transformers are
typically 100-315 kVA feeding dozens of detached houses up to several
hundred meters from the distribution transformer.

Here you /never/ see pole mounted transformers for
domestic properties.

+1

 

[Sjouke Burry]

On 27.06.19 13:22, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:

On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 01:22:02 +0100, Tom Gardner
spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

Curiously a "Which?" review of the Tesla 3 has fallen
into my inbox. A few extracts...


clip

"However, the Autopilot system performed poorly in our tests.
It didn't detect variable speed limits, and when travelling
on motorways that cross over other roads it often picked up
the wrong speed limit and strongly reduced speed. Autopilot
also often failed to assess traffic situations correctly,
resulting in jerky deceleration and acceleration."

An interesting question how these automated systems (from any
manufacturer) perform when snow is falling, especially if the size of
a snowflake is several millimeters

Factory response: OOOOOPPPPPSSSSS!!!!

 

[John Larkin]

On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 16:17:35 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
<langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

fredag den 28. juni 2019 kl. 01.12.45 UTC+2 skrev John Larkin:
On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 17:31:20 +0300, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:

On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 07:55:53 +0100, Tom Gardner
spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

On 27/06/19 07:20, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jun 2019 23:42:43 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

On 6/26/19 10:09 PM, Rick C wrote:
On Wednesday, June 26, 2019 at 9:57:47 PM UTC-4, keith wright wrote:
On Wednesday, 26 June 2019 18:14:57 UTC-7, bitrex wrote:
...
"Charging at home will require
the installation of a dedicated high-capacity outlet"

a 40 amp level 2 charger unit is plenty for many use cases and
installing one is not a complex job. it won't charge up the car in a
couple hours. it'll charge a 3 up ~150 miles overnight, how many people
are driving 150 miles a day every day goddamn.

The summary seems to make it out like you can either charge from a 120
volt outlet over 1.5 days or you have to install a three phase AC-DC
level 3 charger with a cable 4" in diameter to charge the car.

...

'Which' is a UK magazine so a normal wall socket can do up to 2-3kW (as a reference other cars in the UK seem to be set to 10A resulting in 2.4kW).

I did forget that this was a UK magazine. I have talked about this with folks from there and I never got a clear answer, but it seems like they do 13 amp outlets easily, but to get more they wire 3 phase, which *is* a lot more hassle... at least I guess so. They talk about totally different wiring methods than we use and smaller service to the house, so maybe higher current 240 volt outlets aren't so easy. On the other hand, they tend to drive shorter distances so the daily need for charging is not as much. The 3 kW available from a standard outlet gets you around 180 miles on a model 3... assuming they don't do the derating thing that we do in the US. Can someone confirm that?

In the UK there are a number of smaller EVs available with smaller batteries and higher mileage. I don't know the names, but they seem to work well according to the owners.


I believe it's common in the UK and Europe to have smaller per-dwelling
or per apartment (flat?) structure distribution transformer/pole pig as
compared to the US where there's usually one large pole pig to supply a
neighborhood

It is the other way around. In Europe pole mounted transformers are
typically 100-315 kVA feeding dozens of detached houses up to several
hundred meters from the distribution transformer.

Here you /never/ see pole mounted transformers for
domestic properties.

So you have those low transformer buildings every few hundred meters
feeding the houses around it.

In Finland, you can get at least a 3x63 A 230/400 V up to 600 m from
the (ground or pole mounted) distribution transformer from most
electric companies.

In the US, due to lower voltage and hence large currents, a
distribution "pig" transformer only serves one or at most a few
houses.

That's silly. The size of a transfomer depends on KVAs, not voltage.

My house is 120-0-120. In other words, it is fed 240 volts.


and here we get 3*240V using only one extra wire

Residential three phase?

We get industrial three phase with 4 wires, A B C N.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing precision measurement

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

 

[keith wright]

On Thursday, 27 June 2019 16:08:09 UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
....

Why? The batteries aren't gonna freeze, just a few minutes
of use and they'll warm themselves up.

Google knows.

https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/cold-weather-range-loss

https://tomharrisonjr.com/tesla-model-3-cold-weather-tips-e8db94afb1eb

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/06/aaa-confirms-what-tesla-bmw-nissan-ev-owners-suspected-of-cold-weather.html
....

And yet in spite of all this, Norway, not a country known for its warm weather, has a very high EV penetration. Maybe these problems are worth the tradeoffs and not as bad as portrayed.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-norway-autos/tesla-boom-lifts-norways-electric-car-sales-to-58-percent-market-share-idUSKCN1RD2BB

kw

 

Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in
news:95d12876-32ef-436b-a33c-216c02e5b063@googlegroups.com:

On Thursday, June 27, 2019 at 10:31:23 AM UTC-4,
upsid...@downunder.com wrote:
On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 07:55:53 +0100, Tom Gardner
spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

On 27/06/19 07:20, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jun 2019 23:42:43 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net
wrote:

On 6/26/19 10:09 PM, Rick C wrote:
On Wednesday, June 26, 2019 at 9:57:47 PM UTC-4, keith
wright wrote:
On Wednesday, 26 June 2019 18:14:57 UTC-7, bitrex wrote:
...
"Charging at home will require
the installation of a dedicated high-capacity outlet"

a 40 amp level 2 charger unit is plenty for many use cases
and installing one is not a complex job. it won't charge
up the car in
a
couple hours. it'll charge a 3 up ~150 miles overnight,
how many p
eople
are driving 150 miles a day every day goddamn.

The summary seems to make it out like you can either
charge from a
120
volt outlet over 1.5 days or you have to install a three
phase AC-
DC
level 3 charger with a cable 4" in diameter to charge the
car.

...

'Which' is a UK magazine so a normal wall socket can do up
to 2-3kW
(as a reference other cars in the UK seem to be set to 10A
resulting in 2.4kW).

I did forget that this was a UK magazine. I have talked
about this
with folks from there and I never got a clear answer, but it seems
like they do 13 amp outlets easily, but to get more they wire 3
phase, which *is* a lot more hassle... at least I guess so. They
talk about totally different wiring methods than we use and
smaller service to the house, so maybe higher current 240 volt
outlets aren't so easy. On the other hand, they tend to drive
shorter distances so the daily need for charging is not as much.
The 3 kW available from a standard outlet gets you around 180
miles on a model 3... assuming they don't do the derating thing
that we do in the US. Can someone confirm that?

In the UK there are a number of smaller EVs available with
smaller b
atteries and higher mileage. I don't know the names, but they
seem to work well according to the owners.


I believe it's common in the UK and Europe to have smaller
per-dwelli
ng
or per apartment (flat?) structure distribution
transformer/pole pig
as
compared to the US where there's usually one large pole pig
to supply
a
neighborhood

It is the other way around. In Europe pole mounted
transformers are typically 100-315 kVA feeding dozens of
detached houses up to several hundred meters from the
distribution transformer.

Here you /never/ see pole mounted transformers for
domestic properties.

So you have those low transformer buildings every few hundred
meters feeding the houses around it.

In Finland, you can get at least a 3x63 A 230/400 V up to 600 m
from the (ground or pole mounted) distribution transformer from
most electric companies.

In the US, due to lower voltage and hence large currents, a
distribution "pig" transformer only serves one or at most a few
houses.

Maybe I'm confused. What lower voltage? UK and much of the world
supply 240 to the home. The US supplies 240 to the home.

Power is power. A 200 Watt device uses 200 Watts regardless of what
the input feed is.

The US provides 240 volt service drops to US homes.

The guy is confused because US residential local branches are 120
volt splits from a 240 center tapped transformer.

Pole 'pig' transformers service about 4 to 6 homes each. Maybe
more in some developments.

"Due to"? Sure... Those transformers are rated for kVA. They
put out what they are rated at in 100% duty. So what gets hung on
the pole depends on what it is going to feed.

 

On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 19:11:17 -0700 (PDT), keith wright
<keith@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:

On Thursday, 27 June 2019 16:08:09 UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
...
Why? The batteries aren't gonna freeze, just a few minutes
of use and they'll warm themselves up.

Google knows.

https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/cold-weather-range-loss

https://tomharrisonjr.com/tesla-model-3-cold-weather-tips-e8db94afb1eb

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/06/aaa-confirms-what-tesla-bmw-nissan-ev-owners-suspected-of-cold-weather.html
...

And yet in spite of all this, Norway, not a country known for its warm weather, has a very high EV penetration. Maybe these problems are worth the tradeoffs and not as bad as portrayed.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-norway-autos/tesla-boom-lifts-norways-electric-car-sales-to-58-percent-market-share-idUSKCN1RD2BB

Unless you wear Longjohns and a fur coat, it is going to be quite cold
in the car. Alternatively use some battery power to keep the
passengers warm, which reduces the range or you can use a petrol
powered space heater .

You need to keep the lights on most of the day in the winter, winter
tyres or studded tyres will also increase consumption, reducing range.

 

On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 18:04:02 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> wrote:

On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 16:17:35 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

fredag den 28. juni 2019 kl. 01.12.45 UTC+2 skrev John Larkin:
On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 17:31:20 +0300, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:

On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 07:55:53 +0100, Tom Gardner
spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

On 27/06/19 07:20, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jun 2019 23:42:43 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

On 6/26/19 10:09 PM, Rick C wrote:
On Wednesday, June 26, 2019 at 9:57:47 PM UTC-4, keith wright wrote:
On Wednesday, 26 June 2019 18:14:57 UTC-7, bitrex wrote:
...
"Charging at home will require
the installation of a dedicated high-capacity outlet"

a 40 amp level 2 charger unit is plenty for many use cases and
installing one is not a complex job. it won't charge up the car in a
couple hours. it'll charge a 3 up ~150 miles overnight, how many people
are driving 150 miles a day every day goddamn.

The summary seems to make it out like you can either charge from a 120
volt outlet over 1.5 days or you have to install a three phase AC-DC
level 3 charger with a cable 4" in diameter to charge the car.

...

'Which' is a UK magazine so a normal wall socket can do up to 2-3kW (as a reference other cars in the UK seem to be set to 10A resulting in 2.4kW).

I did forget that this was a UK magazine. I have talked about this with folks from there and I never got a clear answer, but it seems like they do 13 amp outlets easily, but to get more they wire 3 phase, which *is* a lot more hassle... at least I guess so. They talk about totally different wiring methods than we use and smaller service to the house, so maybe higher current 240 volt outlets aren't so easy. On the other hand, they tend to drive shorter distances so the daily need for charging is not as much. The 3 kW available from a standard outlet gets you around 180 miles on a model 3... assuming they don't do the derating thing that we do in the US. Can someone confirm that?

In the UK there are a number of smaller EVs available with smaller batteries and higher mileage. I don't know the names, but they seem to work well according to the owners.


I believe it's common in the UK and Europe to have smaller per-dwelling
or per apartment (flat?) structure distribution transformer/pole pig as
compared to the US where there's usually one large pole pig to supply a
neighborhood

It is the other way around. In Europe pole mounted transformers are
typically 100-315 kVA feeding dozens of detached houses up to several
hundred meters from the distribution transformer.

Here you /never/ see pole mounted transformers for
domestic properties.

So you have those low transformer buildings every few hundred meters
feeding the houses around it.

In Finland, you can get at least a 3x63 A 230/400 V up to 600 m from
the (ground or pole mounted) distribution transformer from most
electric companies.

In the US, due to lower voltage and hence large currents, a
distribution "pig" transformer only serves one or at most a few
houses.

That's silly. The size of a transfomer depends on KVAs, not voltage.

My house is 120-0-120. In other words, it is fed 240 volts.


and here we get 3*240V using only one extra wire


Residential three phase?

I even have three phases in my top floor city apartment, although it
currently just feeds the electric stove. In my country house, the
electric sauna, electric stove and a small water pump is all three
phase.

In Finland the norm is three phase connection, you can't even get a
single phase connection, except some companies offer single phase 35 A
230 V for very old apartments, but for detached houses.

We get industrial three phase with 4 wires, A B C N.

 

[Rick C]

On Thursday, June 27, 2019 at 7:17:38 PM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

fredag den 28. juni 2019 kl. 01.12.45 UTC+2 skrev John Larkin:
On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 17:31:20 +0300, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:

On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 07:55:53 +0100, Tom Gardner
spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

On 27/06/19 07:20, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jun 2019 23:42:43 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

On 6/26/19 10:09 PM, Rick C wrote:
On Wednesday, June 26, 2019 at 9:57:47 PM UTC-4, keith wright wrote:
On Wednesday, 26 June 2019 18:14:57 UTC-7, bitrex wrote:
...
"Charging at home will require
the installation of a dedicated high-capacity outlet"

a 40 amp level 2 charger unit is plenty for many use cases and
installing one is not a complex job. it won't charge up the car in a
couple hours. it'll charge a 3 up ~150 miles overnight, how many people
are driving 150 miles a day every day goddamn.

The summary seems to make it out like you can either charge from a 120
volt outlet over 1.5 days or you have to install a three phase AC-DC
level 3 charger with a cable 4" in diameter to charge the car.

...

'Which' is a UK magazine so a normal wall socket can do up to 2-3kW (as a reference other cars in the UK seem to be set to 10A resulting in 2.4kW).

I did forget that this was a UK magazine. I have talked about this with folks from there and I never got a clear answer, but it seems like they do 13 amp outlets easily, but to get more they wire 3 phase, which *is* a lot more hassle... at least I guess so. They talk about totally different wiring methods than we use and smaller service to the house, so maybe higher current 240 volt outlets aren't so easy. On the other hand, they tend to drive shorter distances so the daily need for charging is not as much. The 3 kW available from a standard outlet gets you around 180 miles on a model 3... assuming they don't do the derating thing that we do in the US. Can someone confirm that?

In the UK there are a number of smaller EVs available with smaller batteries and higher mileage. I don't know the names, but they seem to work well according to the owners.


I believe it's common in the UK and Europe to have smaller per-dwelling
or per apartment (flat?) structure distribution transformer/pole pig as
compared to the US where there's usually one large pole pig to supply a
neighborhood

It is the other way around. In Europe pole mounted transformers are
typically 100-315 kVA feeding dozens of detached houses up to several
hundred meters from the distribution transformer.

Here you /never/ see pole mounted transformers for
domestic properties.

So you have those low transformer buildings every few hundred meters
feeding the houses around it.

In Finland, you can get at least a 3x63 A 230/400 V up to 600 m from
the (ground or pole mounted) distribution transformer from most
electric companies.

In the US, due to lower voltage and hence large currents, a
distribution "pig" transformer only serves one or at most a few
houses.

That's silly. The size of a transfomer depends on KVAs, not voltage.

My house is 120-0-120. In other words, it is fed 240 volts.


and here we get 3*240V using only one extra wire

How is it used? How would you connect to a heater to get more power?

--

Rick C.

--+-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--+-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Jasen Betts]

On 2019-06-27, John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> wrote:

On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 17:31:20 +0300, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:

On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 07:55:53 +0100, Tom Gardner
spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

On 27/06/19 07:20, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jun 2019 23:42:43 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

On 6/26/19 10:09 PM, Rick C wrote:
On Wednesday, June 26, 2019 at 9:57:47 PM UTC-4, keith wright wrote:
On Wednesday, 26 June 2019 18:14:57 UTC-7, bitrex wrote:
...
"Charging at home will require
the installation of a dedicated high-capacity outlet"

a 40 amp level 2 charger unit is plenty for many use cases and
installing one is not a complex job. it won't charge up the car in a
couple hours. it'll charge a 3 up ~150 miles overnight, how many people
are driving 150 miles a day every day goddamn.

The summary seems to make it out like you can either charge from a 120
volt outlet over 1.5 days or you have to install a three phase AC-DC
level 3 charger with a cable 4" in diameter to charge the car.

...

'Which' is a UK magazine so a normal wall socket can do up to 2-3kW (as a reference other cars in the UK seem to be set to 10A resulting in 2.4kW).

I did forget that this was a UK magazine. I have talked about this with folks from there and I never got a clear answer, but it seems like they do 13 amp outlets easily, but to get more they wire 3 phase, which *is* a lot more hassle... at least I guess so. They talk about totally different wiring methods than we use and smaller service to the house, so maybe higher current 240 volt outlets aren't so easy. On the other hand, they tend to drive shorter distances so the daily need for charging is not as much. The 3 kW available from a standard outlet gets you around 180 miles on a model 3... assuming they don't do the derating thing that we do in the US. Can someone confirm that?

In the UK there are a number of smaller EVs available with smaller batteries and higher mileage. I don't know the names, but they seem to work well according to the owners.


I believe it's common in the UK and Europe to have smaller per-dwelling
or per apartment (flat?) structure distribution transformer/pole pig as
compared to the US where there's usually one large pole pig to supply a
neighborhood

It is the other way around. In Europe pole mounted transformers are
typically 100-315 kVA feeding dozens of detached houses up to several
hundred meters from the distribution transformer.

Here you /never/ see pole mounted transformers for
domestic properties.

So you have those low transformer buildings every few hundred meters
feeding the houses around it.

In Finland, you can get at least a 3x63 A 230/400 V up to 600 m from
the (ground or pole mounted) distribution transformer from most
electric companies.

In the US, due to lower voltage and hence large currents, a
distribution "pig" transformer only serves one or at most a few
houses.

That's silly. The size of a transfomer depends on KVAs, not voltage.

The size of the wire depends on voltage. For 115V you need wires 4 with
times cross section to get the same power loss as for and equivalent
power load at 240V (and it gets even better with three phase)

So for 240V you can install fewer transformers and run longer drops (reducing maintenance
costs) and still come out ahead on energy loss and amount of copper used.

There's about 200 residences (very rough estimate) on my street and
only 3 (pad-mount) step-down transformers all inside cabinets.

--
When I tried casting out nines I made a hash of it.

 

[John Larkin]

On Fri, 28 Jun 2019 07:05:14 +0300, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:

On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 18:04:02 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> wrote:

On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 16:17:35 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

fredag den 28. juni 2019 kl. 01.12.45 UTC+2 skrev John Larkin:
On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 17:31:20 +0300, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:

On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 07:55:53 +0100, Tom Gardner
spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

On 27/06/19 07:20, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jun 2019 23:42:43 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

On 6/26/19 10:09 PM, Rick C wrote:
On Wednesday, June 26, 2019 at 9:57:47 PM UTC-4, keith wright wrote:
On Wednesday, 26 June 2019 18:14:57 UTC-7, bitrex wrote:
...
"Charging at home will require
the installation of a dedicated high-capacity outlet"

a 40 amp level 2 charger unit is plenty for many use cases and
installing one is not a complex job. it won't charge up the car in a
couple hours. it'll charge a 3 up ~150 miles overnight, how many people
are driving 150 miles a day every day goddamn.

The summary seems to make it out like you can either charge from a 120
volt outlet over 1.5 days or you have to install a three phase AC-DC
level 3 charger with a cable 4" in diameter to charge the car.

...

'Which' is a UK magazine so a normal wall socket can do up to 2-3kW (as a reference other cars in the UK seem to be set to 10A resulting in 2.4kW).

I did forget that this was a UK magazine. I have talked about this with folks from there and I never got a clear answer, but it seems like they do 13 amp outlets easily, but to get more they wire 3 phase, which *is* a lot more hassle... at least I guess so. They talk about totally different wiring methods than we use and smaller service to the house, so maybe higher current 240 volt outlets aren't so easy. On the other hand, they tend to drive shorter distances so the daily need for charging is not as much. The 3 kW available from a standard outlet gets you around 180 miles on a model 3... assuming they don't do the derating thing that we do in the US. Can someone confirm that?

In the UK there are a number of smaller EVs available with smaller batteries and higher mileage. I don't know the names, but they seem to work well according to the owners.


I believe it's common in the UK and Europe to have smaller per-dwelling
or per apartment (flat?) structure distribution transformer/pole pig as
compared to the US where there's usually one large pole pig to supply a
neighborhood

It is the other way around. In Europe pole mounted transformers are
typically 100-315 kVA feeding dozens of detached houses up to several
hundred meters from the distribution transformer.

Here you /never/ see pole mounted transformers for
domestic properties.

So you have those low transformer buildings every few hundred meters
feeding the houses around it.

In Finland, you can get at least a 3x63 A 230/400 V up to 600 m from
the (ground or pole mounted) distribution transformer from most
electric companies.

In the US, due to lower voltage and hence large currents, a
distribution "pig" transformer only serves one or at most a few
houses.

That's silly. The size of a transfomer depends on KVAs, not voltage.

My house is 120-0-120. In other words, it is fed 240 volts.


and here we get 3*240V using only one extra wire


Residential three phase?

I even have three phases in my top floor city apartment, although it
currently just feeds the electric stove. In my country house, the
electric sauna, electric stove and a small water pump is all three
phase.

Are any of those loads actually 3-phase devices, or are they just
three single-phase loads? Controlling true three power takes more
switches or triacs than single phase, and there is no benefit for
resistive or small motor loads.

Are there 3-phase outlets?

I can't imagine that an electric stove has 3-phase heater elements.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

 

[Rick C]

On Friday, June 28, 2019 at 1:01:08 AM UTC-4, Jasen Betts wrote:

On 2019-06-27, Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thursday, June 27, 2019 at 10:31:23 AM UTC-4, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:
On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 07:55:53 +0100, Tom Gardner
spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

On 27/06/19 07:20, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jun 2019 23:42:43 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

On 6/26/19 10:09 PM, Rick C wrote:
On Wednesday, June 26, 2019 at 9:57:47 PM UTC-4, keith wright wrote:
On Wednesday, 26 June 2019 18:14:57 UTC-7, bitrex wrote:
...
"Charging at home will require
the installation of a dedicated high-capacity outlet"

a 40 amp level 2 charger unit is plenty for many use cases and
installing one is not a complex job. it won't charge up the car in a
couple hours. it'll charge a 3 up ~150 miles overnight, how many people
are driving 150 miles a day every day goddamn.

The summary seems to make it out like you can either charge from a 120
volt outlet over 1.5 days or you have to install a three phase AC-DC
level 3 charger with a cable 4" in diameter to charge the car.

...

'Which' is a UK magazine so a normal wall socket can do up to 2-3kW (as a reference other cars in the UK seem to be set to 10A resulting in 2.4kW).

I did forget that this was a UK magazine. I have talked about this with folks from there and I never got a clear answer, but it seems like they do 13 amp outlets easily, but to get more they wire 3 phase, which *is* a lot more hassle... at least I guess so. They talk about totally different wiring methods than we use and smaller service to the house, so maybe higher current 240 volt outlets aren't so easy. On the other hand, they tend to drive shorter distances so the daily need for charging is not as much. The 3 kW available from a standard outlet gets you around 180 miles on a model 3... assuming they don't do the derating thing that we do in the US. Can someone confirm that?

In the UK there are a number of smaller EVs available with smaller batteries and higher mileage. I don't know the names, but they seem to work well according to the owners.


I believe it's common in the UK and Europe to have smaller per-dwelling
or per apartment (flat?) structure distribution transformer/pole pig as
compared to the US where there's usually one large pole pig to supply a
neighborhood

It is the other way around. In Europe pole mounted transformers are
typically 100-315 kVA feeding dozens of detached houses up to several
hundred meters from the distribution transformer.

Here you /never/ see pole mounted transformers for
domestic properties.

So you have those low transformer buildings every few hundred meters
feeding the houses around it.

In Finland, you can get at least a 3x63 A 230/400 V up to 600 m from
the (ground or pole mounted) distribution transformer from most
electric companies.

In the US, due to lower voltage and hence large currents, a
distribution "pig" transformer only serves one or at most a few
houses.

Maybe I'm confused. What lower voltage? UK and much of the world supply 240 to the home. The US supplies 240 to the home.

UK supplies 415V (240 phase to neutral)

My understanding is each outlet is 240 volts. The 415 volts is between phases? How would you wire a stove to 3 phase?

--

Rick C.

--+++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--+++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Jasen Betts]

On 2019-06-27, Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thursday, June 27, 2019 at 10:31:23 AM UTC-4, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:
On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 07:55:53 +0100, Tom Gardner
spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

On 27/06/19 07:20, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jun 2019 23:42:43 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

On 6/26/19 10:09 PM, Rick C wrote:
On Wednesday, June 26, 2019 at 9:57:47 PM UTC-4, keith wright wrote:
On Wednesday, 26 June 2019 18:14:57 UTC-7, bitrex wrote:
...
"Charging at home will require
the installation of a dedicated high-capacity outlet"

a 40 amp level 2 charger unit is plenty for many use cases and
installing one is not a complex job. it won't charge up the car in a
couple hours. it'll charge a 3 up ~150 miles overnight, how many people
are driving 150 miles a day every day goddamn.

The summary seems to make it out like you can either charge from a 120
volt outlet over 1.5 days or you have to install a three phase AC-DC
level 3 charger with a cable 4" in diameter to charge the car.

...

'Which' is a UK magazine so a normal wall socket can do up to 2-3kW (as a reference other cars in the UK seem to be set to 10A resulting in 2.4kW).

I did forget that this was a UK magazine. I have talked about this with folks from there and I never got a clear answer, but it seems like they do 13 amp outlets easily, but to get more they wire 3 phase, which *is* a lot more hassle... at least I guess so. They talk about totally different wiring methods than we use and smaller service to the house, so maybe higher current 240 volt outlets aren't so easy. On the other hand, they tend to drive shorter distances so the daily need for charging is not as much. The 3 kW available from a standard outlet gets you around 180 miles on a model 3... assuming they don't do the derating thing that we do in the US. Can someone confirm that?

In the UK there are a number of smaller EVs available with smaller batteries and higher mileage. I don't know the names, but they seem to work well according to the owners.


I believe it's common in the UK and Europe to have smaller per-dwelling
or per apartment (flat?) structure distribution transformer/pole pig as
compared to the US where there's usually one large pole pig to supply a
neighborhood

It is the other way around. In Europe pole mounted transformers are
typically 100-315 kVA feeding dozens of detached houses up to several
hundred meters from the distribution transformer.

Here you /never/ see pole mounted transformers for
domestic properties.

So you have those low transformer buildings every few hundred meters
feeding the houses around it.

In Finland, you can get at least a 3x63 A 230/400 V up to 600 m from
the (ground or pole mounted) distribution transformer from most
electric companies.

In the US, due to lower voltage and hence large currents, a
distribution "pig" transformer only serves one or at most a few
houses.

Maybe I'm confused. What lower voltage? UK and much of the world supply 240 to the home. The US supplies 240 to the home.

UK supplies 415V (240 phase to neutral)

--
When I tried casting out nines I made a hash of it.

 

[Rick C]

On Thursday, June 27, 2019 at 11:35:52 PM UTC-4, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:

On Thu, 27 Jun 2019 19:11:17 -0700 (PDT), keith wright
keith@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:

On Thursday, 27 June 2019 16:08:09 UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
...
Why? The batteries aren't gonna freeze, just a few minutes
of use and they'll warm themselves up.

Google knows.

https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/cold-weather-range-loss

https://tomharrisonjr.com/tesla-model-3-cold-weather-tips-e8db94afb1eb

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/06/aaa-confirms-what-tesla-bmw-nissan-ev-owners-suspected-of-cold-weather.html
...

And yet in spite of all this, Norway, not a country known for its warm weather, has a very high EV penetration. Maybe these problems are worth the tradeoffs and not as bad as portrayed.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-norway-autos/tesla-boom-lifts-norways-electric-car-sales-to-58-percent-market-share-idUSKCN1RD2BB



Unless you wear Longjohns and a fur coat, it is going to be quite cold
in the car. Alternatively use some battery power to keep the
passengers warm, which reduces the range or you can use a petrol
powered space heater .

You need to keep the lights on most of the day in the winter, winter
tyres or studded tyres will also increase consumption, reducing range.

How much?

--

Rick C.

--++- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--++- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209