EDK : FSL macros defined by Xilinx are wrong

[samiam]

Some of the classic parts had the clear window on ceramic parts. But they
*all* required the dedicated Altera programmer (or 3rd party programmer with
appropriate adapter) and were not in-system programmable. We're talking 27
years ago.

I was going to get some information before I made the leap ... And we
are not talking big money here ... something like $20 bucks for all 200
or so chips

But you raise a good point ... I need to be sure my device programmer
can handle it (I have a BP MICRO and a TOP 2048) ... and that I would
not need to invest in any new hardware or software (pal/pld assembler/
compiler)

Thanks again for the heads up

 

[samiam]

http://www.altera.com/literature/ds/classic.pdf

Thank you very much!

 

[Eric Smith]

Mike Harrison schrieb:

Doesn't have to be small, just differently targeted - e.g. Digikey,
Mouser.

Kolja Sulimma wrote:

Those carry only a portion of the devices, usually stocking them. I need
someone who also orders parts with long lead time for me, but without
whining that I only want 100 parts.

Digikey apparently does that for TI these days. When you order samples
on the TI web site, they're processed by Digikey. The paperwork all
says "TI", but it's from Digikey's address. Presumably TI makes sure
that Digikey is able to fill sample orders even for parts Digikey
doesn't normally stock. Or maybe TI still does some of their own
fulfillment when it's for items Digikey doesn't stock.

Since Digikey is already a Xilinx distributor, and since they already do
a great job of dealing with small orders, this would seem to be a much
more logical arrangement than having Avnet do it.

Anyhow, Digikey seems to to at as good or better a job as Avnet at
stocking Xilinx parts. If you click on the parts listed in the Xilinx
"store" and wind up on the Avnet page, almost everything is listed as
"out of stock", and a lot of valid device/package combinations simply
aren't listed at all.

One gets the impression that Avnet only stocks the Xilinx parts for
which they're already getting large customer orders. That's not
surprising, and I'm not criticizing them for it, but it's not the ideal
modus operandi for an online web store intended to service small orders.

On the other hand, I haven't had any trouble buying starter kits and
eval boards from Avnet.

Eric

 

[Eric Smith]

Austin Lesea wrote:

engineers for decades have used components "outside" of their stated
specifications.

The 'penalty' for being caught, is that the manufacturer may state
that the usage is not covered by the specifications, and thus, not
guaranteed.

lecroy7200 wrote:

That was my question. Is this the level of support we would expect
from Xilinx?

Depends on who "we" are. If you buy $10K of Xilinx parts per year, I
expect they're not going to go as far out of their way to support you as
if you buy $10M per year. Like any other business, Xilinx has finite
resources available to support customers, and has to devote them in such
a way as to maximize return. That's part of their fiduciary
responsibility to their shareholders.

If a small customer wants to deliberately use a part outside its specs,
the answer is probably "you're on your own", but if i vary big customer
wants it, they can probably get Xilinx to have engineering resources
assigned to validating and/or qualifying the part at the desired specs.

That said, in my experience Xilinx does a very good job of supporting
small customers, within the limits of what can reasonably be expected.

Eric

 

[Eric Smith]

samiam wrote:

I am about to stock up on 200 of these chips ... and would jump at the
opportunity if they are ANYTHING like the 22v10 ...

You're about to waste your money, IMNSHO. Especially if you don't already
have a universal programmer that can handle them.

And waste time having to UV erase them.

They're sorta like a PAL between the PAL20xx and PAL22V10. But they're
way inferior to something like an XC9500 series CPLD.

Basically I need to stock up on these for my hobby work and I am being
offered an unbelievable price on them.

If they're free, they're too expensive. (If a deal seems too good to
be true, it probably is.)

You can buy a brand-shiny-new Xilinx XC9536 in a PLCC for $3.30,
quantity one from Digikey. That has 36 macrocells, and is way better
than any of the old EPxxx parts. The XC9536XL part is 3.3V and costs
even less. And they're supported with current development software, and
are in-circuit programmable (no expensive "universal programmer" or UV
erasing necessary).

I'm sure Altera must make some nice inexpensive CPLDs these days too.

I've got scads of old EPLDs from various vendors, some of which were
quite nice parts *BACK THEN*, but I wouldn't dream of using any of
them even for hobby work today. Life's too short to spend it fighting
obsolete chips to save spending a dollar or two on a better, well-
supported modern part.

Eric

 

[lecroy7200@chek.com]

Thanks for the detailed timeline; although the clock on the nearby
slide is labeled '750 MHz LVDS', shortly after that "ah..", H.J.
refers to the 750 MHz as an "output rate".

Also, there's a link on the video page to the Xcell article:
http://www.xilinx.com/publications/xcellonline/xcell_56/xc_pdf/xc_gigasample56.pdf

which says:
"For a 1.5 GHz sample rate, the conversion data will be output
synchronous to a 750 MHz clock. Even at this reduced speed,
FPGA memories and latches would not be able to accept this data
directly. It is therefore beneficial to make use of a DDR method, where
data is presented to the outputs on the both the rising and falling
edges of the clock (Figure 4).

Talking with National, they stated that when running the Virtex 4 at
750MHz that they saw about a 20 deg. C rise. Other than this they saw
no problems. They saw no reason to run the part in this mode and
switched. It sounds like the board still supports both modes. I guess
the video was right, but they had a change in heart.

 

We never had problems ordering from NuHorizons, either from their web
site or from the local rep. We typicaly order SP3 in quantity of 160
every 3-4 months but ordered less (50) for our first prototype batches.
We also order other parts from them in similar quantities.

Just like any other distributor, you sometime have to wait for the
parts to be in stock but so far we never had to wait more than 6 weeks
for SP3s.

One thing with NuHorizons, they do charge a minimum for shipping that
is quite high if you order only 1-10 parts.

Patrick Robin
http://atelierrobin.net

 

[Mark McDougall]

Thomas Reinemann wrote:

Hello, I want to attach an FPGA to a micro controller and therefore
I'm looking for methods how to do this. Is there more than memory
mapped, any where an overview?

That depends totally on the function that the FPGA will be performing,
and also to some extent the micro that you're using!

More info please!
Regards,

--
Mark McDougall, Engineer
Virtual Logic Pty Ltd, <http://www.vl.com.au>
21-25 King St, Rockdale, 2216
Ph: +612-9599-3255 Fax: +612-9599-3266

 

[Gabor]

Prav,

It is common practice to draw simplified block diagrams without the
clock connection when all components are clocked from the same
source. The blocks shown in the Virtex 2 user guide are each
SRLC16, which have a Q output for variable delay plus a Q15
output for cascading. When connecting in a long variable shifter
design, normally the Q15 output is attached to the next SRLC16
and the Q outputs are multiplexed using the upper bits of the
delay as the selector. Then the lower 4 bits of the desired delay
can route to all SRLC16's in the chain.

Regards,
Gabor

prav wrote:

Hi all,

I was going through the datasheet of virtex2 , in which i read that

"each 4-input function generator is programmable as a 4-input LUT, 16
bits of distributed SelectRAM memory, or a 16-bit variable- bits of
distributed SelectRAM memory, or a 16-bit variable-tap shift register
element."

In the diagrams given in the viretx2 datasheet for cascadable shift
register , i don't seen any clock at all.

Can anybody clarify on this implementation???

Regards,
Prav

 

[John_H]

prav wrote:

Hi all,

I was going through the datasheet of virtex2 , in which i read that

"each 4-input function generator is programmable as a 4-input LUT, 16
bits of distributed SelectRAM memory, or a 16-bit variable- bits of
distributed SelectRAM memory, or a 16-bit variable-tap shift register
element."

In the diagrams given in the viretx2 datasheet for cascadable shift
register , i don't seen any clock at all.

Can anybody clarify on this implementation???

Regards,
Prav

See, specifically, Figure 21 on page 16 of "Module 2: Functional
Description" (pdf page 24) from v3.4 of the "Virtex-II Complete Data
Sheet (All four modules)"

http://direct.xilinx.com/bvdocs/publications/ds031.pdf

Where the DI and WS are illustrated on the LUT with the write strobe
generated as "WSG" from the Write Enable and Clock.

 

[radarman]

I agree whole-heartedly - and believe me, I'm a miser when it comes to
parts spending for my hobby. I have some samples of Xilinx 3042 FPGA's
that I will never use. It's just not worth the effort of tracking down
archaic software and installing DOS on a machine.

Believe me, I'm working with an old design at work right now that uses
3 Xilinx 4010E's and a UV eraseable PROM. I had forgotten what a
serious PITA it is to have to wait 30 minutes to reprogram a device.
(fortunately, we have spares, so I just cycle them through the eraser
when we identify a change)

Then, there was the fun of trying to get a copy of ISE 4.2i - which
wasn't easy even at a fortune 500 company that used it several years
ago. I can't imagine trying to dig up the CD and a registration code as
a hobbyist.

Get a modern part that is JTAG programmable. Make sure it's supported
in either the ISE or the Quartus webpacks. The time you save is worth
way more than the cost difference, and you will get a better part to
boot. This is a golden age for hobbyists - as you can do an entire
design essentially for free, save the cost of parts, as long as you use
the economy versions - and today, the "economy" versions of most of
these parts are incredibly powerful - enough that the company I work
for has started seriously considering them for lower power applications
in lieu of Virtex and Stratix parts.

Check digilent - they have modern CPLD's on a DIP board that you can
directly mount in a 40 pin socket. These are perfect for prototyping -
and at $20 a piece, they aren't horrible. Once your design is ready,
you can get the bare part for under $3 or $4, and design a PCB. Much
simpler, easier - and probably even cheaper in the long run.

 

[Mike Treseler]

Jeff Brower wrote:

but XST appears to be doing something different with the integer
comparison than what I'm expecting, possibly sign-extending both sides
to 32-bits. Is there a way to "typecast" an index?

Try your question on comp.lang.verilog.
In vhdl I would use an integer range or unsigned.
Whatever XST is doing, I expect that it would match modelsim.
I prefer trial-and-error simulation to synthesis.

-- Mike Treseler

 

[Mike Treseler]

Thomas Reinemann wrote:

I want to attach an FPGA to a micro controller and therefore I'm looking
for methods how to do this. Is there more than memory mapped,

also port mapped, or embedded (nios, microblaze)

any where an overview?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory-mapped_IO


-- Mike Treseler

 

[Stephen Williams]

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Hash: SHA1

radarman wrote:

Believe me, I'm working with an old design at work right now that uses
3 Xilinx 4010E's and a UV eraseable PROM. I had forgotten what a
serious PITA it is to have to wait 30 minutes to reprogram a device.
(fortunately, we have spares, so I just cycle them through the eraser
when we identify a change)

Then, there was the fun of trying to get a copy of ISE 4.2i - which
wasn't easy even at a fortune 500 company that used it several years
ago. I can't imagine trying to dig up the CD and a registration code as
a hobbyist.

This is an ideal opportunity for open source synthesizers. There
are lots of businesses that have legacy systems >5 years old that
they must support. (Heck, I encounter it myself in day job.) In
many cases, not only can you not find the tool chains you need,
you also can't get the right version of Windows (these tools are
bloody picky about Window/DOS versions) to run on a machine that
one can actually buy:-/


- --
Steve Williams "The woods are lovely, dark and deep.
steve at icarus.com But I have promises to keep,
http://www.icarus.com and lines to code before I sleep,
http://www.picturel.com And lines to code before I sleep."
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[Jeff Brower]

Mike-

Thanks Mike.

Whatever XST is doing, I expect that it would match modelsim.

The code above never makes equality, but I don't know how to fix it.
Would you know what this means:

Q13. An unconstrained integer results in bad quality.
A13. This is a known limitation in XST. Support for this is planned
for ISE 9.1i.

This is on page:


http://www.xilinx.com/xlnx/xil_ans_display.jsp?BV_UseBVCookie=yes&getPagePath=21682&iLanguageID=1

but I can't find any other Xilinx reference to it.

-Jeff

 

[PC]

it seem that we are all ok.. this is a problem for us !

so what can we do ?

Philippz





"Mike Harrison" <mike@whitewing.co.uk> a écrit dans le message de news:
omc942dabfdppfhsru93afs5e0ecdi6aqu@4ax.com...

On Tue, 18 Apr 2006 08:58:53 +0000 (UTC), Uwe Bonnes
bon@hertz.ikp.physik.tu-darmstadt.de> wrote:

Labo.EKO <labo.eko***nospam***@free.fr> wrote:


hi everybody,

maybe we can do a petition about this xilinx store ?...
i'm French user and i can affirm that Avnet France, preferer (to not
says
want ) only big customers ..
they are slow and expensive.. totaly incompatible with prototype phase.

Maybe Xilinx prefer that we try Lattice or others parts ?...

i'm realy not happy against that problem. they can be take example from
Microchip & sample service ...

( sorry for my bad english ! )

I also plea for Xilinx keeping/reinstatiating the Online Shop. Dealing
with
distributors for prototyping is not an easy task...

Agreed - the problem is that distis are always chasing after sales, but
prototyping is done by tech
people who usually can't answer questions about quantities, production
schedules etc.
This is why it's much better for this end of the market to be served by
the manufacturer.

 

[Jon Elson]

Eric Smith wrote:

Since Digikey is already a Xilinx distributor, and since they already do
a great job of dealing with small orders, this would seem to be a much
more logical arrangement than having Avnet do it.

Anyhow, Digikey seems to to at as good or better a job as Avnet at
stocking Xilinx parts. If you click on the parts listed in the Xilinx
"store" and wind up on the Avnet page, almost everything is listed as
"out of stock", and a lot of valid device/package combinations simply
aren't listed at all.


My results are that they no longer stock a variety of parts I still use

(all 5 V).
They still list them in the catalog, but you have to order many pieces
of many of
them (last time I looked). For instance, the XCS30-4TQ144C is now listed
as min order 60 pcs, $49.05 ea, for a total of $2943, which is a VERY big
order for my business.

I get these parts in 25 pc quantity from an Australian distributor for

$15 each.

Jon

 

[Gregory C. Read]

I buy small quantities of Actel parts for prototyping from the same folks
who will eventually do the production programming. BTW, many of the
production runs are only 50 per year.

--
Greg

<pbdelete@spamnuke.ludd.luthdelete.se.invalid> wrote in message
news:44451cae$0$490$cc7c7865@news.luth.se...

I read the thread on xilinx online shop issues.

So how are the other options?
(Altera, Lattice, Actel)

- Priceing on small samples / evaluation boards ..?

- Software is smooth and/or pricey..?

- Have online shop, or _good_ distributors ..? (I live in Europe)

- Reliability (silicon & customer relations) ..?

- Any new fpga manufactor to enter this market soon ..?

 

[Rene Tschaggelar]

pbdelete@spamnuke.ludd.luthdelete.se.invalid wrote:

I read the thread on xilinx online shop issues.

So how are the other options?
(Altera, Lattice, Actel)

- Priceing on small samples / evaluation boards ..?

- Software is smooth and/or pricey..?

- Have online shop, or _good_ distributors ..? (I live in Europe)

- Reliability (silicon & customer relations) ..?

- Any new fpga manufactor to enter this market soon ..?

The Altera parts a distributed by ebv,
amongst others. The EBV support is absolutely
great. The minimum invoice is 150 Fr.
This may pose a problem when the parts
are cheap, and for prototypes.

http://www.ebv.com

The free downloadable software from altera,
quartus, is useable.

Rene
--
Ing.Buero R.Tschaggelar - http://www.ibrtses.com
& commercial newsgroups - http://www.talkto.net

 

[Mike Treseler]

Rene Tschaggelar wrote:

I checked the JTAG pins and their voltage levels.
It should be correct. What else is checked ?

The byteblaster cable to the PC serial or parallel port
and in some cases a software guard dongle on
the parallel port.

-- Mike Treseler