EDK : FSL macros defined by Xilinx are wrong

Hi Philippe,

I am totally for that. Like im sure if we could get like 10,000s names,
then we would have achieve something. I was thinking about how they
took the decision of removing the online shop. Just recently, I noticed
that they added the PROM section to the online shop. This lend me to
believe that at one point, they were actually promoting and saw a
future for online shopping, but something happened that made them took
a 180 degrees U turn. I wouldnt be surprised if in late March 2006, the
big bosses of Xilinx and Avnet had lunch in one of these fancy and they
decided: Hey let's do something really bad, let's take out the online
shop. And I am pretty sure that it was instigated by Avnet.

Yesterday, I was checking out their shipping policy and the way they do
business for international customers. Avnet ask that you purchase a
minimum order of $500, if you are from outside the states or canada.
Cmon people, you would get 50 x XC3S100 for that price and this isnt
prototyping anymore. Then, when I think that Xilinx advertise on their
site, in big, brite and bold: "World´s Lowest Cost FPGAs - now
available in prototyping quanties from Avnet"... ironical isnt it,
makes me wonder where we are heading. Lets face it, we have a problem
here and we should find a solution, and quick. Now, Peter and al, you
should advise us of the possible moves that we've got in order to
replace or convice your bosses of getting back our dear online shop.

From a previously happy canadian customer.
Jacques
Click to expand...
 
Jim Granville wrote:

http://www.altera.com/buy/buy-index.html
Some other company seems to have found a way to have a web store
Click to expand...
In that same link, note that Altera is now making the same
mistake with development software that Xilinx is making
with devices. So it goes.

-- Mike Treseler
 
Hi Jacques,

i totaly agree with you.
sorry my english is too poor, i can't write all i think !...

effectively, there is a minimum order on Avnet France too ..
and they don't sell directly with a credit card ...
if i want some parts for my personnal use.. i can't now ! :(
only digikey ...

if anybody know how create & manage a petition ...
let's go !

thank's
philippe






<jaxato@gmail.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
1145194584.152053.110350@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Hi Philippe,

I am totally for that. Like im sure if we could get like 10,000s names,
then we would have achieve something. I was thinking about how they
took the decision of removing the online shop. Just recently, I noticed
that they added the PROM section to the online shop. This lend me to
believe that at one point, they were actually promoting and saw a
future for online shopping, but something happened that made them took
a 180 degrees U turn. I wouldnt be surprised if in late March 2006, the
big bosses of Xilinx and Avnet had lunch in one of these fancy and they
decided: Hey let's do something really bad, let's take out the online
shop. And I am pretty sure that it was instigated by Avnet.

Yesterday, I was checking out their shipping policy and the way they do
business for international customers. Avnet ask that you purchase a
minimum order of $500, if you are from outside the states or canada.
Cmon people, you would get 50 x XC3S100 for that price and this isnt
prototyping anymore. Then, when I think that Xilinx advertise on their
site, in big, brite and bold: "World´s Lowest Cost FPGAs - now
available in prototyping quanties from Avnet"... ironical isnt it,
makes me wonder where we are heading. Lets face it, we have a problem
here and we should find a solution, and quick. Now, Peter and al, you
should advise us of the possible moves that we've got in order to
replace or convice your bosses of getting back our dear online shop.

From a previously happy canadian customer.
Jacques
Click to expand...
 
Hi Antti,

For the small story, the 10,000 signatures petition was said because of
this:
Here in north america, we had a TV show which was cancelled for some
time (family guy) and after some lobbying from the fan base (10,000
names), it was said and is now aired again on TV. Just to tell you that
it indeed might work. On the other hand, the chances are slim as some
people at X might loose their faces... how do you think the people at
Avnet would take it, if you said something one day, did it and came
back on your words another day. It will be a hard decision for them,
the high authority at X, and I think that their decision,
unfortunately, is one which is definitive.

My point now is to work toward a practical solution with the smart guys
at Xilinx. I am just realistic and the chances to see back our dear
online shop is very small. We need now a reliable and stable, prototype
or small volume or qty, call it any name, supplier that can provide us,
anywhere in the world, with any Xilinx Spartan3 FPGA chips or at least,
the range that the Xilinx online shop use to have, and that at a
reasonable price. As this is a call, make it also for Spartan3E and
Spartan4.

When this will be done, then it will stand up for their motto: "Make it
your ASIC" or "Generation Spartan3E", but til then, these same words
say: We are people who will definitely look at our own interests
without caring for our fan base.

Cheers
Jacques
 
and we can suggest that they accept Paypal !..
we can dream ;)



<jaxato@gmail.com> a écrit dans le message de
news:1145130612.059195.298690@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Hi everyone,

As I was buying some components from the Xilinx online store this
morning, I noticed that they no longer support silicon device anymore.
It seems that it is now AVNET that is taking care of distributing
Xilinx FPGA online. The worse thing is that the price is more
expensive, and they do not have all the parts that Xilinx use to offer
(the part I am looking for specially).
Now i've got a few questions for the Xilinx people out there. Is it
really true or if it not, then what is the updated link for your online
section.

Many thanks
Jacques
Click to expand...
 
maybe someone can do a complaign "letter" and everybody send it to an xilinx
customer email ..?

they must not forget that many home users, are work users ..
i do the choice at my work of wich FPGA i want use ..
( even if i know that i'm not the bigger customer ! )


regard's
philippe




"Labo.EKO" <labo.eko***nospam***@free.fr> a écrit dans le message de
news:4442aadd$0$22761$626a54ce@news.free.fr...
and we can suggest that they accept Paypal !..
we can dream ;)



jaxato@gmail.com> a écrit dans le message de
news:1145130612.059195.298690@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Hi everyone,

As I was buying some components from the Xilinx online store this
morning, I noticed that they no longer support silicon device anymore.
It seems that it is now AVNET that is taking care of distributing
Xilinx FPGA online. The worse thing is that the price is more
expensive, and they do not have all the parts that Xilinx use to offer
(the part I am looking for specially).
Now i've got a few questions for the Xilinx people out there. Is it
really true or if it not, then what is the updated link for your online
section.

Many thanks
Jacques
Click to expand...
 
"Labo.EKO" <labo.eko***nospam***@free.fr> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:4442abea$0$16082$626a54ce@news.free.fr...
maybe someone can do a complaign "letter" and everybody send it to an
xilinx
customer email ..?

they must not forget that many home users, are work users ..
i do the choice at my work of wich FPGA i want use ..
( even if i know that i'm not the bigger customer ! )


regard's
philippe

it would not help or do any good :(
Click to expand...

Antti
 
Do not give up!
I'll soon find out whether I can have a bit of influence...
Peter Alfke
 
Peter Alfke schrieb:
Do not give up!
I'll soon find out whether I can have a bit of influence...
Peter Alfke
Click to expand...
Having a Xilinx online Store is a good option, but if Xilinx
does not want to handle the logistics for that themselves there
is another option.
Xilinx could acquire small distributors in addition to Avnet/Silica.
Silica told me outright in the face that they do not like to handle
small customers like me, so why force them to do that?

A small distributor with less company overhead often can service small
customers a lot better than the huge players.

Kolja Sulimma
 
lecroy7200,

That is very funny: "do not allow..."

Excuse me, but I find that hilarious.

As if the FPGA Police will swoop down on you and have you arrested.

Right.

In the fine tradition of:

1) knowing that all components are designed to meet certain specifications
2) and that most of the elements of a design normally exceed the
specifications
3) and that it may be that you are willing to sacrifice one
specification over another (max frequency vs duty cycle)

engineers for decades have used components "outside" of their stated
specifications.

The 'penalty' for being caught, is that the manufacturer may state that
the usage is not covered by the specifications, and thus, not guaranteed.

Since the guarantee is just one of "take that part out, and replace it
with another" the clever engineer has been taking advantage of their
components for many years.

Of course, the clever engineer has to perform a complete verification
and characterization on their own to be sure that suddenly the feature
that they are using doesn't go away. For example: is the usage one
that has wide margin, or is it very tight? How does the usage vary with
voltage and temperature? Have you tested it on devices from different
lots? Did you call or ask someone at the factory what their opinion was?

A very common practice is to buy commercial grade components. and
qualify them yourself for an application that is not commercial grade.

Maybe you just need to go from -20C to +85C, and you know, as a
reasonably intelligent engineer, that the I grade and C grade parts are
pretty similar silicon, and all most of the difference is the test
program. Since getting colder is usually not a problem with timing, or
performance (at least is used to be, can't say that is true any longer),
it is a safe bet to say that a C grade part will work fine at -20C?

Now the previous practice was pretty common, and I am not sure of how
common that still is.

Getting back to the clock.

How fast do you want to go? What duty cycle distortion can you
tolerate? Over what temperature range? How many do you need to make?
Does it still meet the thermal Tj requirements? If it is found "to
work" at room temp, and nominal voltages, looks like there is a lot more
engineering that you have to do.

I have no idea what National did (haven't seen the presentation). I am
sure it is all there in the documentation, as it has been pointed out.
And, it sounds like they have a clock/4 option, which is just smart.

Enjoy.

Austin


lecroy7200@chek.com wrote:

I think I wrote DES in that last note, which would have been incorrect.


Austin,

Thanks for the input. Do you know if the parts are indeed running at
the 750MHz as stated in the video? Talking with Altera they also claim
the part was running in DDR mode, again not what the video shows. I
have tried to contact National about the design, but no luck yet.

"It won't be 45/55% like the spec sheet says, but it will still have a
perfectly good pulse there. Obviously National is using this. Since
they are using it, that makes Xilinx kind of responsible for some
support of this application. "

I am not sure what the arrangement would be that Xilinx would be
responsible for what I would consider a bad design (assuming they
really are running the part at 750MHz). If Xilinx does plan to support
higher clock rates, what does this mean to me as a designer? Are there
any application notes that talk about overclocking the Virtex 4?

Just an FYI, if I try to do this same thing with the Stratix II and
Quartus, the tool will spit out an error. I spoke with Altera about
this and they made the comment that they do not allow the parts to be
over driven.
Click to expand...
 
It was a 2-part video. Part 1, they start talking about the 1.5GHz
clock.

At 8:46 seconds, H.J. states ".. so its actually going to output two
words at a time, with a clock thats a half speed clock."

At 9:04 Ian states ".. you will create a 750MHz, ah.." Interrupted by
H.J.

If they ran it using DDR mode, I would think they would not have made a
point to call out the 750MHz clock.
 
That is very funny: "do not allow..."
Excuse me, but I find that hilarious.
As if the FPGA Police will swoop down on you and have you arrested.
Right.
Click to expand...
I am not sure why they would do this other than trying to protect the
customer from themselves. You may want to ask the Altera people this
one.

engineers for decades have used components "outside" of their stated
specifications.
Click to expand...

The 'penalty' for being caught, is that the manufacturer may state that
the usage is not covered by the specifications, and thus, not
Click to expand...
guaranteed.

That was my question. Is this the level of support we would expect
from Xilinx?

A very common practice is to buy commercial grade components. and
qualify them yourself for an application that is not commercial grade.
Click to expand...

Ah, the stories that come to mind...
 
lecroy7200,

Comments on the comments,

-snip-

I am not sure why they would do this other than trying to protect the
customer from themselves. You may want to ask the Altera people this
one.
Click to expand...
That is always a good idea, but the best way to keep customers out of
trouble is to educate them. Providing mindless rules without a good
reason can just lead to more headaches.

The 'penalty' for being caught, is that the manufacturer may state that
the usage is not covered by the specifications, and thus, not
guaranteed.

That was my question. Is this the level of support we would expect
from Xilinx?
Click to expand...
The conversation from Xilinx would go like this:
"Do you use the part within its specifications?"
Your answer - 'No...'
"OK, so what was your expectation?"
'that it would work'
"And does it, in fact work?"
'well, not always'
"Well, I'm really sorry about that, maybe there is some way to work
around this issue, and get it to work within specifications and do what
you want. Let me understand your application..."

Basically, Xilinx is not going to throw you to the wolves. But we are
not going to redesign the chip for you, either.




http://cache.national.com/ds/DC/ADC08D1500.pdf

Figure 4, DDR clocking shows how a 1.5 GHz clock into the ADC, comes out
as a clock/4 on each of the 0 and 90 degree clocks, so that you can
capture four 8 bit bytes in the clock/4 period, (using both rising and
falling edges of the 0 and 90 degree data clocks outs). So it looks to
me like no "laws" are broken....
 
I think I did my first EP610 design (Altera's original PLD family) back in
1989.
Why do you want to know about what equates to a 400 year old man?

"samiam" <samiamSPAMTHIS@spamthis.org> wrote in message
news:mHP0g.164$ID2.163@fe08.lga...
does anyone have any information about this chip?
I heard it mentioned in the same sentence as a 22v10 but I havent
been able to dig up any pin outs/schematics online.

Thanks
Click to expand...
 
Providing mindless rules without a good reason can just lead to more headaches.
I would have to leave this one to the Altera guys. I am not sure if
Click to expand...
they would view it as a mindless rule or not.

I have a call into National. I will post their responce.
 
John_H wrote:
I think I did my first EP610 design (Altera's original PLD family) back in
1989.
Why do you want to know about what equates to a 400 year old man?
Click to expand...
LOL
I am about to stock up on 200 of these chips ... and would jump at the
opportunity if they are ANYTHING like the 22v10 ...

Basically I need to stock up on these for my hobby work and I am being
offered an unbelievable price on them.

Problem is ... I dont have any info on these PLD's

What can you tell me about it?
How does it differ from the 22v10?
How many inputs?
How many outputs?
Number of Minterms?
Programmable output?
Registered output?

Thanmks
 
On Mon, 17 Apr 2006 13:40:59 -0400, samiam
<samiamSPAMTHIS@spamthis.org> wrote:

John_H wrote:
I think I did my first EP610 design (Altera's original PLD family) back in
1989.
Why do you want to know about what equates to a 400 year old man?

LOL
I am about to stock up on 200 of these chips ... and would jump at the
opportunity if they are ANYTHING like the 22v10 ...

Basically I need to stock up on these for my hobby work and I am being
offered an unbelievable price on them.

Problem is ... I dont have any info on these PLD's

What can you tell me about it?
How does it differ from the 22v10?
How many inputs?
How many outputs?
Number of Minterms?
Programmable output?
Registered output?

Thanmks
Click to expand...
http://www.altera.com/literature/ds/classic.pdf
 
samiam wrote:

I am about to stock up on 200 of these chips ... and would jump at the
opportunity if they are ANYTHING like the 22v10 ...
Click to expand...
You might look before you leap.

You could a buy brand new 3000a series
device (much better than a 22V10)
for $1.25 each at quantity 1.
http://www.buyaltera.com/scripts/partsearch.dll/showfilter?lookup=1,30,3076
Fully documented
http://www.altera.com/literature/ds/m3000a.pdf
free software
http://www.altera.com/products/software/products/quartus2web/sof-quarwebmain.html


-- Mike Treseler
 
samiam wrote:
John_H wrote:

I think I did my first EP610 design (Altera's original PLD family)
back in 1989.
Why do you want to know about what equates to a 400 year old man?


LOL
I am about to stock up on 200 of these chips ... and would jump at the
opportunity if they are ANYTHING like the 22v10 ...

Basically I need to stock up on these for my hobby work and I am being
offered an unbelievable price on them.

Problem is ... I dont have any info on these PLD's

What can you tell me about it?
How does it differ from the 22v10?
How many inputs?
How many outputs?
Number of Minterms?
Programmable output?
Registered output?
Click to expand...
You have not asked how to program them yet, which might be
the most important question :)
You will need to generate code, and also get the code into the
chips.... ( which I believe are OTP )

-jg
 
"Jim Granville" <no.spam@designtools.co.nz> wrote in message
news:4443f8f0@clear.net.nz...
You have not asked how to program them yet, which might be
the most important question :)
You will need to generate code, and also get the code into the chips....
( which I believe are OTP )

-jg
Click to expand...
Some of the classic parts had the clear window on ceramic parts. But they
*all* required the dedicated Altera programmer (or 3rd party programmer with
appropriate adapter) and were not in-system programmable. We're talking 27
years ago.

There are better options.

I imagine you could get people to pay you to take inventory off their hands
if they still have some lying around... they're worth *that* much!
 
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