Driver to drive?

[Lasse Langwadt Christense]

Den tirsdag den 16. september 2014 15.40.03 UTC+2 skrev Phil Hobbs:

On 9/15/2014 8:20 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 23:58:13 +0000 (UTC), Don Kuenz

garbage@crcomp.net> wrote:



That was my approach until I read _Troubleshooting Analog Circuits_ by

Pease. For solderless breadbroads Pease recommends perfboard and

Digikey A208 and A209.



Are you sure you want to follow Bob Pease's example?

http://www.rfcafe.com/references/electrical/bob-pease-breadboard.htm





Perf board is way too slow, I find--it takes at least twice as long as

dead-bug when both methods apply. All that cutting and stripping of

wires takes ages, and wire-wrap wire is too easy to nick.

you should try enamel wire, just cut to length and dip the end in a blob
of solder on the iron, instant stripping



-Lasse

 

[Lasse Langwadt Christense]

Den tirsdag den 16. september 2014 19.43.34 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:

On 9/16/2014 8:46 AM, Don Kuenz wrote:



It reminds me of the open air boardless circuit that used to hang on an

old boss' wall as abusive art. Imagine, if you will, a perfboard circuit

minus the perfboard with lots of stiff wire "tracers" to keep everything

in place.



The stiff wire tracers were generally kept strictly horizontal and

vertical, which lent an air of respectability to the tangle. The art was

voice activated. It made obnoxious sounds - chirping and doing what not

when one spoke. It was the audio equivalent of rolling one's eyes. It

was unsettling and kept employees such as me on the defensive, to the

delight of my boss, no doubt.



But, it was also art. It was fun to look at.



A friend *always* "air wired" (simple) things. I think he enjoyed

the three-dimensional puzzle aspect of it ("Hmmm... how can I get

this component to bridge these two points in space?").



When done, he would wrap the circuit in toilet paper (!) and

stuff it in a tin can.



shrug> Different strokes...

http://runawaybrainz.blogspot.dk/2012/04/audio-crystal-cmoy-freeform-headphone.html

-Lasse

 

[Lasse Langwadt Christense]

Den tirsdag den 16. september 2014 20.23.28 UTC+2 skrev John Larkin:

On Tue, 16 Sep 2014 14:01:27 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:



On 9/16/2014 1:54 PM, John Larkin wrote:

On Tue, 16 Sep 2014 12:40:51 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:



On 9/16/2014 12:31 PM, John Larkin wrote:

On Tue, 16 Sep 2014 12:16:34 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:



On 9/16/2014 11:46 AM, John Larkin wrote:

On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 22:16:14 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:



On 9/15/2014 9:36 PM, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno wrote:

On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 18:03:28 -0700, John Larkin

jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> Gave us:



On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 23:51:25 +0000 (UTC), Don Kuenz

garbage@crcomp.net> wrote:



NoNoSpamSamIam@Null.net <sroberts6328@gmail.com> wrote:

I buy Radio Shack 276-170 linear breadboards in bulk for linear work.

For RF I do "Dead Bug" or "Manhatten" style work on very thin

microwave PCB.



I do not use the solderless breadboards, because of the element to

element capacitance, and because the reliability of any given

connection is horribly bad.



I've used "Dead Bug" before. "Manhattan style" was a new one for me. One

of my old ARRL Handbooks talked about "hacked Manhattan style" (my

words).



Hacked Manhattan doesn't use raised islands. Instead one takes a piece

of copper plated board and uses a hacksaw to carve grooves through the

copper while leaving the phenolic "substrate" mostly intact. The

horizontal and vertical grooves are spaced a quarter inch apart to form

a quarter inch square grid. At the end it looks like a piece of quarter

inch grid paper with grooves where inked lines ought to be. Each quarter

inch square of copper forms its own little island.



Did Radio Shack give its 276-170 a makeover? The RS website shows what

looks to be a nylon solderless breadboard. At other sites the 276-0170

looks like a plain old perfboard with a nlyon breadboard hole pattern.



A Dremel and a carbide dental burr cuts nice freehand patterns into

the copper, with a little practise.







Just 3D print them. A truly "printed" circuit.



I haven't seen an inexpensive metal printer. Better might be a photo

resist printer if it could handle the fine lines often needed. I'm

afraid that a Dremel tool isn't quite the surgeon's scalpel for placing

0.5 mm pitch quad flat packs. lol



Even so, etching a PCB is a PITA and usually the stuff I do needs to be

multiple layers. For PCBs one and even two layers is a pretty limiting

technology. Then there is the assembly work. I don't know that I can

solder anything small anymore. My hand is far from steady these days.



I use Bellin surface-mount adapters for small parts. I have a Mantis

magnifier that helps enormously when soldering small stuff.



I only breadboard simple things, little subcircuits. Sometimes we'll

do a 4-layer board to test one or more circuits. When I do that, I

walk around and see if anyone else wants to piggy-back a circuit on

the board.



https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53724080/PCBs/Z312.JPG



It doesn't make sense to breadboard an entire product; you may as well

go for the real thing, the sellable board.



Somebody here could make a home business out of making 4-layer protos

for people, maybe run a panel per week and chop it up for various

customers. Some sections, like adapters and filters, could be standard

products, too.



https://oshpark.com/



They even do your beloved gold finish.



You are welcome...



I had in mind someone who would accept sketches and scribbles, do the

board layout, buy a panel, and hack it up to distribute to various

customers... something more than standard PCB fab from Gerbers.



Sure, I'll do your layouts for you. Send me your scribbles.



And then what, I have to order boards?



What I had in mind was a really useful service that saved me time and

hassle. You know, something helpful.



There are lots of retired and hobbyist guys here that could start all

sorts of interesting little businesses. Maybe they prefer golfing and

going to wine tastings.



I'll order the boards too. But I will likely charge extra for crabby

attitudes.



Do you have anything in the pipe?



Not today, but maybe two biggish jobs coming up. Roughly 30 discrete

engineering sub-projects, some of which we could br delegated.



But I was suggesting a business, which would involve consolidating

several such circuits per panel.

with prices like these: http://smart-prototyping.com/Prototyping-Services/Electronic-Prototyping/PCB-Prototyping.html


it is hardly worth the work of combining and cutting stuff from panels

-Lasse

 

[John Larkin]

On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 22:16:14 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

On 9/15/2014 9:36 PM, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno wrote:
On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 18:03:28 -0700, John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> Gave us:

On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 23:51:25 +0000 (UTC), Don Kuenz
garbage@crcomp.net> wrote:

NoNoSpamSamIam@Null.net <sroberts6328@gmail.com> wrote:
I buy Radio Shack 276-170 linear breadboards in bulk for linear work.
For RF I do "Dead Bug" or "Manhatten" style work on very thin
microwave PCB.

I do not use the solderless breadboards, because of the element to
element capacitance, and because the reliability of any given
connection is horribly bad.

I've used "Dead Bug" before. "Manhattan style" was a new one for me. One
of my old ARRL Handbooks talked about "hacked Manhattan style" (my
words).

Hacked Manhattan doesn't use raised islands. Instead one takes a piece
of copper plated board and uses a hacksaw to carve grooves through the
copper while leaving the phenolic "substrate" mostly intact. The
horizontal and vertical grooves are spaced a quarter inch apart to form
a quarter inch square grid. At the end it looks like a piece of quarter
inch grid paper with grooves where inked lines ought to be. Each quarter
inch square of copper forms its own little island.

Did Radio Shack give its 276-170 a makeover? The RS website shows what
looks to be a nylon solderless breadboard. At other sites the 276-0170
looks like a plain old perfboard with a nlyon breadboard hole pattern.

A Dremel and a carbide dental burr cuts nice freehand patterns into
the copper, with a little practise.



Just 3D print them. A truly "printed" circuit.

I haven't seen an inexpensive metal printer. Better might be a photo
resist printer if it could handle the fine lines often needed. I'm
afraid that a Dremel tool isn't quite the surgeon's scalpel for placing
0.5 mm pitch quad flat packs. lol

Even so, etching a PCB is a PITA and usually the stuff I do needs to be
multiple layers. For PCBs one and even two layers is a pretty limiting
technology. Then there is the assembly work. I don't know that I can
solder anything small anymore. My hand is far from steady these days.

I use Bellin surface-mount adapters for small parts. I have a Mantis
magnifier that helps enormously when soldering small stuff.

I only breadboard simple things, little subcircuits. Sometimes we'll
do a 4-layer board to test one or more circuits. When I do that, I
walk around and see if anyone else wants to piggy-back a circuit on
the board.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53724080/PCBs/Z312.JPG

It doesn't make sense to breadboard an entire product; you may as well
go for the real thing, the sellable board.

Somebody here could make a home business out of making 4-layer protos
for people, maybe run a panel per week and chop it up for various
customers. Some sections, like adapters and filters, could be standard
products, too.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

 

[John Larkin]

On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 23:25:06 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 18:36:10 -0700, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno
DLU1@DecadentLinuxUser.org> wrote:

Just 3D print them. A truly "printed" circuit.

Have you tried 3D printing yet? I've noticed that the most vocal
advocates of 3D printing are those that have never tried it. I got my
first experience at a local "makers" shop:
http://makersfactory.com
Mostly cardboard thickness sheets that were assembled into something
artsy. Then, my neighbor bought a DaVinci 3D printer version 1.0:
http://us.xyzprinting.com/Product
Of course, I had to play (after he was done making dinosaur skeletons
and robot gears). So, I measured and made a replacement fan rotor for
a video card that I broke. The fan eventually ran for about a minute
before it flew apart.

The short summary is that 3D printing could probably be used to make a
PCB if you don't mind secondary operations and complex CAD drawings.
There's no way to get a totally smooth finish. Tiny holes tend to
fill in when the plastic gets hot and reflows. It's slower than a
snail and makes far too much irritating noise. The final product is
rather brittle. Run to slow, and it melts and sags. Run too fast,
and it crumbles to dust. However, I suspect all of these problems can
be solved with a specialized 3D printer designed for making PC boards.

It would make more sense to spray on a resist pattern and then etch.

Etching is messy and nasty, but so it trying to solder to conductive
epoxy.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

 

[Lasse Langwadt Christense]

Den tirsdag den 16. september 2014 21.47.42 UTC+2 skrev jeroen Belleman:

On 16/09/14 19:47, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

On 9/15/2014 8:20 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

dead-bug when both methods apply. All that cutting and stripping

of wires takes ages, and wire-wrap wire is too easy to nick.





you should try enamel wire, just cut to length and dip the end in a

blob of solder on the iron, instant stripping



-Lasse





You either have lousy enamel or a red-hot iron. In my experience,

most enamel doesn't come off so easily at reasonable soldering

temperatures. The insulation of wire-wrap wire (Kynar?) does

melt easily however. There is no need to strip it before soldering.



Jeroen Belleman

Weller set to ~350'C, the trick is to get the solder to touch the bare
copper on the cut end, doing it on the middle of a wire won't work.

You can get wire with enamel that is nearly impossible to get off but
most will, the rolls I have says "polysol"

-Lasse

 

[rickman]

On 9/16/2014 11:46 AM, John Larkin wrote:

On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 22:16:14 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

On 9/15/2014 9:36 PM, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno wrote:
On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 18:03:28 -0700, John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> Gave us:

On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 23:51:25 +0000 (UTC), Don Kuenz
garbage@crcomp.net> wrote:

NoNoSpamSamIam@Null.net <sroberts6328@gmail.com> wrote:
I buy Radio Shack 276-170 linear breadboards in bulk for linear work.
For RF I do "Dead Bug" or "Manhatten" style work on very thin
microwave PCB.

I do not use the solderless breadboards, because of the element to
element capacitance, and because the reliability of any given
connection is horribly bad.

I've used "Dead Bug" before. "Manhattan style" was a new one for me. One
of my old ARRL Handbooks talked about "hacked Manhattan style" (my
words).

Hacked Manhattan doesn't use raised islands. Instead one takes a piece
of copper plated board and uses a hacksaw to carve grooves through the
copper while leaving the phenolic "substrate" mostly intact. The
horizontal and vertical grooves are spaced a quarter inch apart to form
a quarter inch square grid. At the end it looks like a piece of quarter
inch grid paper with grooves where inked lines ought to be. Each quarter
inch square of copper forms its own little island.

Did Radio Shack give its 276-170 a makeover? The RS website shows what
looks to be a nylon solderless breadboard. At other sites the 276-0170
looks like a plain old perfboard with a nlyon breadboard hole pattern.

A Dremel and a carbide dental burr cuts nice freehand patterns into
the copper, with a little practise.



Just 3D print them. A truly "printed" circuit.

I haven't seen an inexpensive metal printer. Better might be a photo
resist printer if it could handle the fine lines often needed. I'm
afraid that a Dremel tool isn't quite the surgeon's scalpel for placing
0.5 mm pitch quad flat packs. lol

Even so, etching a PCB is a PITA and usually the stuff I do needs to be
multiple layers. For PCBs one and even two layers is a pretty limiting
technology. Then there is the assembly work. I don't know that I can
solder anything small anymore. My hand is far from steady these days.

I use Bellin surface-mount adapters for small parts. I have a Mantis
magnifier that helps enormously when soldering small stuff.

I only breadboard simple things, little subcircuits. Sometimes we'll
do a 4-layer board to test one or more circuits. When I do that, I
walk around and see if anyone else wants to piggy-back a circuit on
the board.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53724080/PCBs/Z312.JPG

It doesn't make sense to breadboard an entire product; you may as well
go for the real thing, the sellable board.

Somebody here could make a home business out of making 4-layer protos
for people, maybe run a panel per week and chop it up for various
customers. Some sections, like adapters and filters, could be standard
products, too.

https://oshpark.com/

They even do your beloved gold finish.

You are welcome...

--

Rick

 

[Kevin Aylward]

"Jim Thompson" wrote in message
news:qqge1a59vmrnfuhk5pd3433uq9cgth4aar@4ax.com...

On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 12:23:02 -0700 (PDT), "NoNoSpamSamIam@Null.net"
<sroberts6328@gmail.com> wrote:

I buy Radio Shack 276-170 linear breadboards in bulk for linear work. For
RF I do "Dead Bug" or "Manhatten" style work on very thin microwave PCB.

I do not use the solderless breadboards, because of the element to element
capacitance, and because the reliability of any given connection is
horribly bad.

Steve R.

<I learned the hard way that they are horribly bad even at (audio) 40kHz.

As IC designers, we don't prototype at all. We always have right first pass
silicon

Kevin Aylward
www.kevinaylward.co.uk
www.anasoft.co.uk - SuperSpice

 

[John Larkin]

On Tue, 16 Sep 2014 12:16:34 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

On 9/16/2014 11:46 AM, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 22:16:14 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

On 9/15/2014 9:36 PM, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno wrote:
On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 18:03:28 -0700, John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> Gave us:

On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 23:51:25 +0000 (UTC), Don Kuenz
garbage@crcomp.net> wrote:

NoNoSpamSamIam@Null.net <sroberts6328@gmail.com> wrote:
I buy Radio Shack 276-170 linear breadboards in bulk for linear work.
For RF I do "Dead Bug" or "Manhatten" style work on very thin
microwave PCB.

I do not use the solderless breadboards, because of the element to
element capacitance, and because the reliability of any given
connection is horribly bad.

I've used "Dead Bug" before. "Manhattan style" was a new one for me. One
of my old ARRL Handbooks talked about "hacked Manhattan style" (my
words).

Hacked Manhattan doesn't use raised islands. Instead one takes a piece
of copper plated board and uses a hacksaw to carve grooves through the
copper while leaving the phenolic "substrate" mostly intact. The
horizontal and vertical grooves are spaced a quarter inch apart to form
a quarter inch square grid. At the end it looks like a piece of quarter
inch grid paper with grooves where inked lines ought to be. Each quarter
inch square of copper forms its own little island.

Did Radio Shack give its 276-170 a makeover? The RS website shows what
looks to be a nylon solderless breadboard. At other sites the 276-0170
looks like a plain old perfboard with a nlyon breadboard hole pattern.

A Dremel and a carbide dental burr cuts nice freehand patterns into
the copper, with a little practise.



Just 3D print them. A truly "printed" circuit.

I haven't seen an inexpensive metal printer. Better might be a photo
resist printer if it could handle the fine lines often needed. I'm
afraid that a Dremel tool isn't quite the surgeon's scalpel for placing
0.5 mm pitch quad flat packs. lol

Even so, etching a PCB is a PITA and usually the stuff I do needs to be
multiple layers. For PCBs one and even two layers is a pretty limiting
technology. Then there is the assembly work. I don't know that I can
solder anything small anymore. My hand is far from steady these days.

I use Bellin surface-mount adapters for small parts. I have a Mantis
magnifier that helps enormously when soldering small stuff.

I only breadboard simple things, little subcircuits. Sometimes we'll
do a 4-layer board to test one or more circuits. When I do that, I
walk around and see if anyone else wants to piggy-back a circuit on
the board.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53724080/PCBs/Z312.JPG

It doesn't make sense to breadboard an entire product; you may as well
go for the real thing, the sellable board.

Somebody here could make a home business out of making 4-layer protos
for people, maybe run a panel per week and chop it up for various
customers. Some sections, like adapters and filters, could be standard
products, too.

https://oshpark.com/

They even do your beloved gold finish.

You are welcome...

I had in mind someone who would accept sketches and scribbles, do the
board layout, buy a panel, and hack it up to distribute to various
customers... something more than standard PCB fab from Gerbers.




--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

 

[rickman]

On 9/16/2014 12:31 PM, John Larkin wrote:

On Tue, 16 Sep 2014 12:16:34 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

On 9/16/2014 11:46 AM, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 22:16:14 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

On 9/15/2014 9:36 PM, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno wrote:
On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 18:03:28 -0700, John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> Gave us:

On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 23:51:25 +0000 (UTC), Don Kuenz
garbage@crcomp.net> wrote:

NoNoSpamSamIam@Null.net <sroberts6328@gmail.com> wrote:
I buy Radio Shack 276-170 linear breadboards in bulk for linear work.
For RF I do "Dead Bug" or "Manhatten" style work on very thin
microwave PCB.

I do not use the solderless breadboards, because of the element to
element capacitance, and because the reliability of any given
connection is horribly bad.

I've used "Dead Bug" before. "Manhattan style" was a new one for me. One
of my old ARRL Handbooks talked about "hacked Manhattan style" (my
words).

Hacked Manhattan doesn't use raised islands. Instead one takes a piece
of copper plated board and uses a hacksaw to carve grooves through the
copper while leaving the phenolic "substrate" mostly intact. The
horizontal and vertical grooves are spaced a quarter inch apart to form
a quarter inch square grid. At the end it looks like a piece of quarter
inch grid paper with grooves where inked lines ought to be. Each quarter
inch square of copper forms its own little island.

Did Radio Shack give its 276-170 a makeover? The RS website shows what
looks to be a nylon solderless breadboard. At other sites the 276-0170
looks like a plain old perfboard with a nlyon breadboard hole pattern.

A Dremel and a carbide dental burr cuts nice freehand patterns into
the copper, with a little practise.



Just 3D print them. A truly "printed" circuit.

I haven't seen an inexpensive metal printer. Better might be a photo
resist printer if it could handle the fine lines often needed. I'm
afraid that a Dremel tool isn't quite the surgeon's scalpel for placing
0.5 mm pitch quad flat packs. lol

Even so, etching a PCB is a PITA and usually the stuff I do needs to be
multiple layers. For PCBs one and even two layers is a pretty limiting
technology. Then there is the assembly work. I don't know that I can
solder anything small anymore. My hand is far from steady these days.

I use Bellin surface-mount adapters for small parts. I have a Mantis
magnifier that helps enormously when soldering small stuff.

I only breadboard simple things, little subcircuits. Sometimes we'll
do a 4-layer board to test one or more circuits. When I do that, I
walk around and see if anyone else wants to piggy-back a circuit on
the board.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53724080/PCBs/Z312.JPG

It doesn't make sense to breadboard an entire product; you may as well
go for the real thing, the sellable board.

Somebody here could make a home business out of making 4-layer protos
for people, maybe run a panel per week and chop it up for various
customers. Some sections, like adapters and filters, could be standard
products, too.

https://oshpark.com/

They even do your beloved gold finish.

You are welcome...

I had in mind someone who would accept sketches and scribbles, do the
board layout, buy a panel, and hack it up to distribute to various
customers... something more than standard PCB fab from Gerbers.

Sure, I'll do your layouts for you. Send me your scribbles.

--

Rick

 

[DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUn]

On Tue, 16 Sep 2014 01:42:49 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> Gave us:

On 9/16/2014 12:52 AM, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno wrote:
On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 22:16:14 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> Gave us:

On 9/15/2014 9:36 PM, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno wrote:


Just 3D print them. A truly "printed" circuit.

I haven't seen an inexpensive metal printer. Better might be a photo
resist printer if it could handle the fine lines often needed. I'm
afraid that a Dremel tool isn't quite the surgeon's scalpel for placing
0.5 mm pitch quad flat packs. lol

Even so, etching a PCB is a PITA and usually the stuff I do needs to be
multiple layers. For PCBs one and even two layers is a pretty limiting
technology. Then there is the assembly work. I don't know that I can
solder anything small anymore. My hand is far from steady these days.


My hand is fine. I can shoot pool without touching the table.

It is my friggin eyes that are going. And probably my heart.

I would always brace my hand on the table, a very solid base is
important to a good shot. If you can do that in the air my hat is off
to you.

Yes. I am, in fact, rock steady and somewhat of a trick shot artist
as I never need a bridge either and shoot ambidextrously. They should
have me on TV between the pro matches.

My eyes get steadily worse as well. But then an 88 year old friend has
macular degeneration and deals with it very well. He can still read
with difficulty and is writing an article on the post Civil War canteens
he collects. So I can't feel too bad...

When I eat a piece of toast I thank the Lord for the fact that I have
it, and continue with my knowledge that so many here on Earth do not
even get a piece of toast in a given day.

I only hope that my physical maladies, whatever they may be, do not
keep me from making a contribution to (and toward) civil society.

And hope that my mental maladies do not harm anyone, like as was the
case with folks like Travon Martin, and this guy...

http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/us/2014/08/11/orig-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-suspects.cnn.html

We should come down hard on cops who have forgotten their oaths, and
we should hold the failed academies they go to at fault for maligning
their mindsets into this Nazi horseshit we are currently enduring. And
the retarded bastards did NOTHING about the gangs OR the drugs they
claimed they needed all that money and additional manpower for.

Be afraid... Be very afraid.

 

[DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUn]

On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 23:25:06 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
Gave us:

>Have you tried 3D printing yet?

We have several at work, and they make our Circuit Card Test mounting
fixtures for us. Embedded PEMs and lots of other features.

As to your remarks about finish, we bought pro models. I guess with
the consumer grade, one gets what one pays for, and the AR-16 Receiver
won't be on your list of capable 'print jobs'.

 

[DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUn]

On Tue, 16 Sep 2014 08:45:50 -0400, Phil Hobbs
<hobbs@electrooptical.net> Gave us:

On 9/15/2014 9:34 PM, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno wrote:
On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 17:46:03 -0700 (PDT), George Herold
gherold@teachspin.com> Gave us:

On Monday, September 15, 2014 3:03:36 PM UTC-4, Don Kuenz wrote:
Do you personally use a plastic solderless breadboard for your

prototypes?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/items/?_nkw=solderless+breadboard

If not, what do you use for your prototypes?

TIA.

Every once in a while, to test something simple, or a simple circuit.
(But I usually regret it, when some wire/connections gets flaky.)
Then it turns into live bug air wires over copper clad.

George H.

--

Don Kuenz

"Dead Bug" is legs up. It is also what you should use from the start,
with form factors being as small as they are these days.


I find that I can do dead bug with 50-mil pitch parts (such as SOICs and
SOT23s) by staggering the leads like saw teeth. The main problem is
that the leads are so fragile, whereas with DIPs you can just solder a
resistor to a pin and bend it anywhere you like without worrying.

Anything smaller than 50 mils is extremely difficult, so breakout boards
come in very handy. For devices where those don't work well (e.g. SC70
microwave transistors), it's sometimes possible to wire them up dead-bug
fashion with 0603s in midair, but that's very fiddly.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

I place and wire small sub-circuits onto little silica heat sink tabs
and other ceramic wafers. I glue them down with PCB SMD component
adhesive or simple superglue, If I have already done all the soldering
between nodes, and will not be introducing any more heat.

http://www.mediafire.com/view/nxtztsxh47ug7fp/ceramic.JPG#

 

[John Larkin]

On Tue, 16 Sep 2014 12:40:51 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

On 9/16/2014 12:31 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 16 Sep 2014 12:16:34 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

On 9/16/2014 11:46 AM, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 22:16:14 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

On 9/15/2014 9:36 PM, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno wrote:
On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 18:03:28 -0700, John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> Gave us:

On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 23:51:25 +0000 (UTC), Don Kuenz
garbage@crcomp.net> wrote:

NoNoSpamSamIam@Null.net <sroberts6328@gmail.com> wrote:
I buy Radio Shack 276-170 linear breadboards in bulk for linear work.
For RF I do "Dead Bug" or "Manhatten" style work on very thin
microwave PCB.

I do not use the solderless breadboards, because of the element to
element capacitance, and because the reliability of any given
connection is horribly bad.

I've used "Dead Bug" before. "Manhattan style" was a new one for me. One
of my old ARRL Handbooks talked about "hacked Manhattan style" (my
words).

Hacked Manhattan doesn't use raised islands. Instead one takes a piece
of copper plated board and uses a hacksaw to carve grooves through the
copper while leaving the phenolic "substrate" mostly intact. The
horizontal and vertical grooves are spaced a quarter inch apart to form
a quarter inch square grid. At the end it looks like a piece of quarter
inch grid paper with grooves where inked lines ought to be. Each quarter
inch square of copper forms its own little island.

Did Radio Shack give its 276-170 a makeover? The RS website shows what
looks to be a nylon solderless breadboard. At other sites the 276-0170
looks like a plain old perfboard with a nlyon breadboard hole pattern.

A Dremel and a carbide dental burr cuts nice freehand patterns into
the copper, with a little practise.



Just 3D print them. A truly "printed" circuit.

I haven't seen an inexpensive metal printer. Better might be a photo
resist printer if it could handle the fine lines often needed. I'm
afraid that a Dremel tool isn't quite the surgeon's scalpel for placing
0.5 mm pitch quad flat packs. lol

Even so, etching a PCB is a PITA and usually the stuff I do needs to be
multiple layers. For PCBs one and even two layers is a pretty limiting
technology. Then there is the assembly work. I don't know that I can
solder anything small anymore. My hand is far from steady these days.

I use Bellin surface-mount adapters for small parts. I have a Mantis
magnifier that helps enormously when soldering small stuff.

I only breadboard simple things, little subcircuits. Sometimes we'll
do a 4-layer board to test one or more circuits. When I do that, I
walk around and see if anyone else wants to piggy-back a circuit on
the board.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53724080/PCBs/Z312.JPG

It doesn't make sense to breadboard an entire product; you may as well
go for the real thing, the sellable board.

Somebody here could make a home business out of making 4-layer protos
for people, maybe run a panel per week and chop it up for various
customers. Some sections, like adapters and filters, could be standard
products, too.

https://oshpark.com/

They even do your beloved gold finish.

You are welcome...

I had in mind someone who would accept sketches and scribbles, do the
board layout, buy a panel, and hack it up to distribute to various
customers... something more than standard PCB fab from Gerbers.

Sure, I'll do your layouts for you. Send me your scribbles.

And then what, I have to order boards?

What I had in mind was a really useful service that saved me time and
hassle. You know, something helpful.

There are lots of retired and hobbyist guys here that could start all
sorts of interesting little businesses. Maybe they prefer golfing and
going to wine tastings.




--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

 

[rickman]

On 9/16/2014 1:23 PM, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno wrote:

On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 23:25:06 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com
Gave us:

Have you tried 3D printing yet?

We have several at work, and they make our Circuit Card Test mounting
fixtures for us. Embedded PEMs and lots of other features.

As to your remarks about finish, we bought pro models. I guess with
the consumer grade, one gets what one pays for, and the AR-16 Receiver
won't be on your list of capable 'print jobs'.

Jeff's points are out of left field. Of course the plastic used in a 3D
printer won't be useful as a PCB substrate. Duh! But it is feasible to
print metal onto an existing substrate. The question is *what* metal?
Whatever is used has to be reasonably conductive and capable of being
soldered unless a new technology for attaching components is to be
developed.

Has anyone heard of anything along these lines? I see in Jeff's link
they are making steel objects by laser fusing metal beads. If they
could do this with copper a board could be covered with copper beads and
fused where you want the tracks to remain. There would need to be some
form of attachment developed to keep the copper solidly on the board.
Or perhaps steel could be used as a thin base layer (again assuming an
attachment can be formed) and copper plated on top. That would have
possibilities, especially since the plating would give you through holes
at the same time. But then plating is also a step we would like to
avoid, no?

--

Rick

 

[rickman]

On 9/16/2014 1:54 PM, John Larkin wrote:

On Tue, 16 Sep 2014 12:40:51 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

On 9/16/2014 12:31 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 16 Sep 2014 12:16:34 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

On 9/16/2014 11:46 AM, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 22:16:14 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

On 9/15/2014 9:36 PM, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno wrote:
On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 18:03:28 -0700, John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> Gave us:

On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 23:51:25 +0000 (UTC), Don Kuenz
garbage@crcomp.net> wrote:

NoNoSpamSamIam@Null.net <sroberts6328@gmail.com> wrote:
I buy Radio Shack 276-170 linear breadboards in bulk for linear work.
For RF I do "Dead Bug" or "Manhatten" style work on very thin
microwave PCB.

I do not use the solderless breadboards, because of the element to
element capacitance, and because the reliability of any given
connection is horribly bad.

I've used "Dead Bug" before. "Manhattan style" was a new one for me. One
of my old ARRL Handbooks talked about "hacked Manhattan style" (my
words).

Hacked Manhattan doesn't use raised islands. Instead one takes a piece
of copper plated board and uses a hacksaw to carve grooves through the
copper while leaving the phenolic "substrate" mostly intact. The
horizontal and vertical grooves are spaced a quarter inch apart to form
a quarter inch square grid. At the end it looks like a piece of quarter
inch grid paper with grooves where inked lines ought to be. Each quarter
inch square of copper forms its own little island.

Did Radio Shack give its 276-170 a makeover? The RS website shows what
looks to be a nylon solderless breadboard. At other sites the 276-0170
looks like a plain old perfboard with a nlyon breadboard hole pattern.

A Dremel and a carbide dental burr cuts nice freehand patterns into
the copper, with a little practise.



Just 3D print them. A truly "printed" circuit.

I haven't seen an inexpensive metal printer. Better might be a photo
resist printer if it could handle the fine lines often needed. I'm
afraid that a Dremel tool isn't quite the surgeon's scalpel for placing
0.5 mm pitch quad flat packs. lol

Even so, etching a PCB is a PITA and usually the stuff I do needs to be
multiple layers. For PCBs one and even two layers is a pretty limiting
technology. Then there is the assembly work. I don't know that I can
solder anything small anymore. My hand is far from steady these days.

I use Bellin surface-mount adapters for small parts. I have a Mantis
magnifier that helps enormously when soldering small stuff.

I only breadboard simple things, little subcircuits. Sometimes we'll
do a 4-layer board to test one or more circuits. When I do that, I
walk around and see if anyone else wants to piggy-back a circuit on
the board.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53724080/PCBs/Z312.JPG

It doesn't make sense to breadboard an entire product; you may as well
go for the real thing, the sellable board.

Somebody here could make a home business out of making 4-layer protos
for people, maybe run a panel per week and chop it up for various
customers. Some sections, like adapters and filters, could be standard
products, too.

https://oshpark.com/

They even do your beloved gold finish.

You are welcome...

I had in mind someone who would accept sketches and scribbles, do the
board layout, buy a panel, and hack it up to distribute to various
customers... something more than standard PCB fab from Gerbers.

Sure, I'll do your layouts for you. Send me your scribbles.

And then what, I have to order boards?

What I had in mind was a really useful service that saved me time and
hassle. You know, something helpful.

There are lots of retired and hobbyist guys here that could start all
sorts of interesting little businesses. Maybe they prefer golfing and
going to wine tastings.

I'll order the boards too. But I will likely charge extra for crabby
attitudes.

Do you have anything in the pipe?

--

Rick

 

[John Larkin]

On Tue, 16 Sep 2014 14:01:27 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

On 9/16/2014 1:54 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 16 Sep 2014 12:40:51 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

On 9/16/2014 12:31 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 16 Sep 2014 12:16:34 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

On 9/16/2014 11:46 AM, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 22:16:14 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

On 9/15/2014 9:36 PM, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno wrote:
On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 18:03:28 -0700, John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> Gave us:

On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 23:51:25 +0000 (UTC), Don Kuenz
garbage@crcomp.net> wrote:

NoNoSpamSamIam@Null.net <sroberts6328@gmail.com> wrote:
I buy Radio Shack 276-170 linear breadboards in bulk for linear work.
For RF I do "Dead Bug" or "Manhatten" style work on very thin
microwave PCB.

I do not use the solderless breadboards, because of the element to
element capacitance, and because the reliability of any given
connection is horribly bad.

I've used "Dead Bug" before. "Manhattan style" was a new one for me. One
of my old ARRL Handbooks talked about "hacked Manhattan style" (my
words).

Hacked Manhattan doesn't use raised islands. Instead one takes a piece
of copper plated board and uses a hacksaw to carve grooves through the
copper while leaving the phenolic "substrate" mostly intact. The
horizontal and vertical grooves are spaced a quarter inch apart to form
a quarter inch square grid. At the end it looks like a piece of quarter
inch grid paper with grooves where inked lines ought to be. Each quarter
inch square of copper forms its own little island.

Did Radio Shack give its 276-170 a makeover? The RS website shows what
looks to be a nylon solderless breadboard. At other sites the 276-0170
looks like a plain old perfboard with a nlyon breadboard hole pattern.

A Dremel and a carbide dental burr cuts nice freehand patterns into
the copper, with a little practise.



Just 3D print them. A truly "printed" circuit.

I haven't seen an inexpensive metal printer. Better might be a photo
resist printer if it could handle the fine lines often needed. I'm
afraid that a Dremel tool isn't quite the surgeon's scalpel for placing
0.5 mm pitch quad flat packs. lol

Even so, etching a PCB is a PITA and usually the stuff I do needs to be
multiple layers. For PCBs one and even two layers is a pretty limiting
technology. Then there is the assembly work. I don't know that I can
solder anything small anymore. My hand is far from steady these days.

I use Bellin surface-mount adapters for small parts. I have a Mantis
magnifier that helps enormously when soldering small stuff.

I only breadboard simple things, little subcircuits. Sometimes we'll
do a 4-layer board to test one or more circuits. When I do that, I
walk around and see if anyone else wants to piggy-back a circuit on
the board.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53724080/PCBs/Z312.JPG

It doesn't make sense to breadboard an entire product; you may as well
go for the real thing, the sellable board.

Somebody here could make a home business out of making 4-layer protos
for people, maybe run a panel per week and chop it up for various
customers. Some sections, like adapters and filters, could be standard
products, too.

https://oshpark.com/

They even do your beloved gold finish.

You are welcome...

I had in mind someone who would accept sketches and scribbles, do the
board layout, buy a panel, and hack it up to distribute to various
customers... something more than standard PCB fab from Gerbers.

Sure, I'll do your layouts for you. Send me your scribbles.

And then what, I have to order boards?

What I had in mind was a really useful service that saved me time and
hassle. You know, something helpful.

There are lots of retired and hobbyist guys here that could start all
sorts of interesting little businesses. Maybe they prefer golfing and
going to wine tastings.

I'll order the boards too. But I will likely charge extra for crabby
attitudes.

Do you have anything in the pipe?

Not today, but maybe two biggish jobs coming up. Roughly 30 discrete
engineering sub-projects, some of which we could br delegated.

But I was suggesting a business, which would involve consolidating
several such circuits per panel.




--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

 

[John Larkin]

On Tue, 16 Sep 2014 08:45:50 -0400, Phil Hobbs
<hobbs@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 9/15/2014 9:34 PM, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno wrote:
On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 17:46:03 -0700 (PDT), George Herold
gherold@teachspin.com> Gave us:

On Monday, September 15, 2014 3:03:36 PM UTC-4, Don Kuenz wrote:
Do you personally use a plastic solderless breadboard for your

prototypes?

http://www.ebay.com/sch/items/?_nkw=solderless+breadboard

If not, what do you use for your prototypes?

TIA.

Every once in a while, to test something simple, or a simple circuit.
(But I usually regret it, when some wire/connections gets flaky.)
Then it turns into live bug air wires over copper clad.

George H.

--

Don Kuenz

"Dead Bug" is legs up. It is also what you should use from the start,
with form factors being as small as they are these days.


I find that I can do dead bug with 50-mil pitch parts (such as SOICs and
SOT23s) by staggering the leads like saw teeth. The main problem is
that the leads are so fragile, whereas with DIPs you can just solder a
resistor to a pin and bend it anywhere you like without worrying.

Anything smaller than 50 mils is extremely difficult, so breakout boards
come in very handy. For devices where those don't work well (e.g. SC70
microwave transistors), it's sometimes possible to wire them up dead-bug
fashion with 0603s in midair, but that's very fiddly.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

The advantage of the adapter boards is that it's fairly easy to
replace a zapped part. It's awful if you solder a bunch of Rs and Cs
and wires directly to the IC pins.




--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

 

[Phil Hobbs]

On 09/16/2014 01:47 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

Den tirsdag den 16. september 2014 15.40.03 UTC+2 skrev Phil Hobbs:
On 9/15/2014 8:20 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 23:58:13 +0000 (UTC), Don Kuenz

garbage@crcomp.net> wrote:



That was my approach until I read _Troubleshooting Analog Circuits_ by

Pease. For solderless breadbroads Pease recommends perfboard and

Digikey A208 and A209.



Are you sure you want to follow Bob Pease's example?

http://www.rfcafe.com/references/electrical/bob-pease-breadboard.htm





Perf board is way too slow, I find--it takes at least twice as long as

dead-bug when both methods apply. All that cutting and stripping of

wires takes ages, and wire-wrap wire is too easy to nick.



you should try enamel wire, just cut to length and dip the end in a blob
of solder on the iron, instant stripping



-Lasse

I use leftover component leads for >90% of my connections, and
PVC-insulated #26 stranded for most of the long runs. Strips well, not
too stiff.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

 

[John S]

On 9/16/2014 12:20 PM, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno wrote:

On Tue, 16 Sep 2014 01:42:49 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> Gave us:

On 9/16/2014 12:52 AM, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno wrote:
On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 22:16:14 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> Gave us:

On 9/15/2014 9:36 PM, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno wrote:


Just 3D print them. A truly "printed" circuit.

I haven't seen an inexpensive metal printer. Better might be a photo
resist printer if it could handle the fine lines often needed. I'm
afraid that a Dremel tool isn't quite the surgeon's scalpel for placing
0.5 mm pitch quad flat packs. lol

Even so, etching a PCB is a PITA and usually the stuff I do needs to be
multiple layers. For PCBs one and even two layers is a pretty limiting
technology. Then there is the assembly work. I don't know that I can
solder anything small anymore. My hand is far from steady these days.


My hand is fine. I can shoot pool without touching the table.

It is my friggin eyes that are going. And probably my heart.

I would always brace my hand on the table, a very solid base is
important to a good shot. If you can do that in the air my hat is off
to you.

Yes. I am, in fact, rock steady and somewhat of a trick shot artist
as I never need a bridge either and shoot ambidextrously. They should
have me on TV between the pro matches.

My eyes get steadily worse as well. But then an 88 year old friend has
macular degeneration and deals with it very well. He can still read
with difficulty and is writing an article on the post Civil War canteens
he collects. So I can't feel too bad...

When I eat a piece of toast I thank the Lord for the fact that I have
it, and continue with my knowledge that so many here on Earth do not
even get a piece of toast in a given day.

I just gotta ask... does anyone here believe this crap?