J
Jurd
Guest
On 5/4/2014 8:48 AM, amdx wrote:
Why all the freezers?
-J
Why all the freezers?
-J
A
amdx
Guest
On 5/5/2014 5:53 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
I did not know that, but it does seem that it would be hard to pull.
That is the existing situation*, romex in conduit, but I think that will
change tomorrow. I marked out a section of the conduit this evening, I
will try to find the box in the morning and buy three-100 ft pieces of
wires to pull through the conduit.
Mikek
* As I recall, it's been 15 years since I saw it. Doesn't seem right
though, it would be a bear to pull.
I did not know that, but it does seem that it would be hard to pull.
That is the existing situation*, romex in conduit, but I think that will
change tomorrow. I marked out a section of the conduit this evening, I
will try to find the box in the morning and buy three-100 ft pieces of
wires to pull through the conduit.
Mikek
* As I recall, it's been 15 years since I saw it. Doesn't seem right
though, it would be a bear to pull.
A
amdx
Guest
On 5/5/2014 6:20 PM, Jurd wrote:
Guest
amdx <nojunk@knology.net> wrote:
Use the existing wire to pull in the new wires. Or, use it to pull in a
string, and then use the string to pull in the new wires. You can get
real official "pull rope" in the electrical aisle (usually blue and
white poly), but any kind of rope that will fit will work.
A book I have ("Wiring Simplified" by Richter, Schwan, and Hartwell, for
the 2002 NEC) mentions some cases where putting cable in conduit is
acceptable. When talking about how to run NM cable indoors, it says
"Only where necessary to provide protection against physical damage,
Type NM cable can be drawn into any raceway, with a bushing installed on
the raceway ends." "Raceway" includes heavy threaded conduit (RMC,
IMC), thin metal conduit (EMT), plastic conduit (RNT), flexible metal
conduit (FMC), and flexible liquidtight conduit (LFMC).
For buried cable (like UF), it talks about transitioning to conduit to
go into the side of the building. Basically, the conduit ends
underground with a bushing, and the cable goes into it.
It also talks about running NM cable through conduit in a barn, where
mechanical protection for the conduit is required. There is supposed
to be a bushing on each end of the conduit, but that's it.
If you use bigger conduit than you really need, and carefully straighten
the cable before it goes in, you can kind of get this to work. It helps
a lot if the roll of cable you're using was wound without any twists in
it. You can also get lubricant for pulling wires into conduit, but I
don't know if you're supposed to use it on NM - it might only be for
individual THHN wires and maybe NMC/UF.
Having said that, I don't think NM or Romex (the white stuff, with paper
inside it) is the right cable to use in this application - a buried feed
to an outbuilding. I think UF (the grey stuff, solid plastic inside) is
the right cable.
If you're rewiring, you might consider going up a gauge or two, if you
didn't do that when you initially put this in. There are rules about
how full a conduit can be - how many wires of what gauge - that you
have to pay attention to, but if you've got 14 AWG in there now, going
to 12 or 10 AWG will reduce the voltage drop noticeably.
Matt Roberds
Use the existing wire to pull in the new wires. Or, use it to pull in a
string, and then use the string to pull in the new wires. You can get
real official "pull rope" in the electrical aisle (usually blue and
white poly), but any kind of rope that will fit will work.
A book I have ("Wiring Simplified" by Richter, Schwan, and Hartwell, for
the 2002 NEC) mentions some cases where putting cable in conduit is
acceptable. When talking about how to run NM cable indoors, it says
"Only where necessary to provide protection against physical damage,
Type NM cable can be drawn into any raceway, with a bushing installed on
the raceway ends." "Raceway" includes heavy threaded conduit (RMC,
IMC), thin metal conduit (EMT), plastic conduit (RNT), flexible metal
conduit (FMC), and flexible liquidtight conduit (LFMC).
For buried cable (like UF), it talks about transitioning to conduit to
go into the side of the building. Basically, the conduit ends
underground with a bushing, and the cable goes into it.
It also talks about running NM cable through conduit in a barn, where
mechanical protection for the conduit is required. There is supposed
to be a bushing on each end of the conduit, but that's it.
If you use bigger conduit than you really need, and carefully straighten
the cable before it goes in, you can kind of get this to work. It helps
a lot if the roll of cable you're using was wound without any twists in
it. You can also get lubricant for pulling wires into conduit, but I
don't know if you're supposed to use it on NM - it might only be for
individual THHN wires and maybe NMC/UF.
Having said that, I don't think NM or Romex (the white stuff, with paper
inside it) is the right cable to use in this application - a buried feed
to an outbuilding. I think UF (the grey stuff, solid plastic inside) is
the right cable.
If you're rewiring, you might consider going up a gauge or two, if you
didn't do that when you initially put this in. There are rules about
how full a conduit can be - how many wires of what gauge - that you
have to pay attention to, but if you've got 14 AWG in there now, going
to 12 or 10 AWG will reduce the voltage drop noticeably.
Matt Roberds
J
Jim Thompson
Guest
On Mon, 05 May 2014 20:52:31 -0500, amdx <nojunk@knology.net> wrote:
Buy a "fish tape" if you don't have one.
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice
480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Buy a "fish tape" if you don't have one.
...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice
480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat || E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
A
amdx
Guest
On 5/5/2014 8:54 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
Mikek
Yep, got one.
Mikek
A
amdx
Guest
On 5/6/2014 1:13 AM, mroberds@att.net wrote:
is 3/4" now.
I do plan on making the wire as large as possible, If I can make 10
work, I will. I have large (maybe 500watt) sodium vapor? light that
quits when I start my sander or skil saw. It takes a minute to get
started again.
Anything wrong with 2-10s and 1-12 for the grd?
Is stranded wire ok by code? I think it is.
Mikek
It would be easier if the conduit was one size larger, I think it
is 3/4" now.
I do plan on making the wire as large as possible, If I can make 10
work, I will. I have large (maybe 500watt) sodium vapor? light that
quits when I start my sander or skil saw. It takes a minute to get
started again.
Anything wrong with 2-10s and 1-12 for the grd?
Is stranded wire ok by code? I think it is.
Mikek
Guest
amdx <nojunk@knology.net> wrote:
Unfortunately that conduit stretcher I ordered a few years ago is still
on back order. It's stuck in the same place as the door stretcher (for
getting large equipment into a building).
These come in several sizes; the ones in the big box stores seem to
be 70 W or 150 W but bigger ones exist.
In a few more years, humans will be able to afford an LED replacement
with equal light output, but probably not yet. (Protip: You have to
buy it just as soon as it's barely affordable, while there is still
some QC on the ballasts. Once it gets really cheap, the ballast will
have been outhoused to People's Shining LED Ballast Factory #39, and
the assembly will start lasting 1/10 of the lifetime of the LED chips.)
> It takes a minute to get started again.
It's normal for that kind of lamp to take a little while to restart,
but the fact that it goes out means you have some pretty good voltage
drop right now.
> Anything wrong with 2-10s and 1-12 for the grd?
Is the shed fed with a 15 amp breaker, 20 amp breaker, or something
else? Normally the ground is the same size as the live and neutral, but
since at least the live and neutral are bigger than they need to be, I
think it is OK. I am not an electrician though.
I think you said this is plastic conduit? Looking at the conduit fill
tables I can find online, 3/4" schedule 40 is good for fifteen 12 AWG
wires or nine 10 AWG wires. Schedule 80 (thicker wall) is 12 and 7
respectively. Plastic conduit will have "Sch 40" or "Sch 80" printed
on the side. If it's some other kind of conduit, Google for "conduit
fill table" and have fun.
> Is stranded wire ok by code? I think it is.
I think it is too; it's a lot easier to pull into conduit than solid.
Over a certain size (about 10 or 8 AWG) all you can get is stranded.
One difficulty I have had with stranded wire is trying to attach it to
a switch or receptacle. No matter how hard I twist the strands, it
wants to unravel a little when I bend it into a loop and put it under
the terminal screw. If you have the style of terminal where you put
the wire straight in under a plate, and then tighten the screw down on
the plate, stranded works fine. (This is different than the push-in or
back-wire terminals, which only "work" with solid wire.)
If the first place inside the shed that the wire from the conduit goes
is a disconnect/breaker box, or it gets wire-nutted to the wiring inside
the shed, you won't have this problem. If the first place the wire from
the conduit goes is a switch or receptacle, you might have a better time
if you splice on 6" or so of solid wire with a wire nut, and connect the
solid wire to the device.
Matt Roberds
Unfortunately that conduit stretcher I ordered a few years ago is still
on back order. It's stuck in the same place as the door stretcher (for
getting large equipment into a building).
These come in several sizes; the ones in the big box stores seem to
be 70 W or 150 W but bigger ones exist.
In a few more years, humans will be able to afford an LED replacement
with equal light output, but probably not yet. (Protip: You have to
buy it just as soon as it's barely affordable, while there is still
some QC on the ballasts. Once it gets really cheap, the ballast will
have been outhoused to People's Shining LED Ballast Factory #39, and
the assembly will start lasting 1/10 of the lifetime of the LED chips.)
> It takes a minute to get started again.
It's normal for that kind of lamp to take a little while to restart,
but the fact that it goes out means you have some pretty good voltage
drop right now.
> Anything wrong with 2-10s and 1-12 for the grd?
Is the shed fed with a 15 amp breaker, 20 amp breaker, or something
else? Normally the ground is the same size as the live and neutral, but
since at least the live and neutral are bigger than they need to be, I
think it is OK. I am not an electrician though.
I think you said this is plastic conduit? Looking at the conduit fill
tables I can find online, 3/4" schedule 40 is good for fifteen 12 AWG
wires or nine 10 AWG wires. Schedule 80 (thicker wall) is 12 and 7
respectively. Plastic conduit will have "Sch 40" or "Sch 80" printed
on the side. If it's some other kind of conduit, Google for "conduit
fill table" and have fun.
> Is stranded wire ok by code? I think it is.
I think it is too; it's a lot easier to pull into conduit than solid.
Over a certain size (about 10 or 8 AWG) all you can get is stranded.
One difficulty I have had with stranded wire is trying to attach it to
a switch or receptacle. No matter how hard I twist the strands, it
wants to unravel a little when I bend it into a loop and put it under
the terminal screw. If you have the style of terminal where you put
the wire straight in under a plate, and then tighten the screw down on
the plate, stranded works fine. (This is different than the push-in or
back-wire terminals, which only "work" with solid wire.)
If the first place inside the shed that the wire from the conduit goes
is a disconnect/breaker box, or it gets wire-nutted to the wiring inside
the shed, you won't have this problem. If the first place the wire from
the conduit goes is a switch or receptacle, you might have a better time
if you splice on 6" or so of solid wire with a wire nut, and connect the
solid wire to the device.
Matt Roberds
R
Ron M.
Guest
Why not just get some 10/2/G gray underground wire and dispense with the conduit. It's really tough stuff and will last a long time. That's what I used on an 110 ft. Run to my shop. Seems rather pricey to buy a bunch of expensive conduit along with the accompanying installation headaches associated with it. Just conduit the sections entering the structures at both ends per local codes. Sounded like you were contemplating digging anyway so figured I would suggest it. Hope you get it fixed.
A
amdx
Guest
On 5/10/2014 5:41 PM, Ron M. wrote:
> Why not just get some 10/2/G gray underground wire and dispense with the conduit. It's really tough stuff and will last a long time. That's what I used on an 110 ft. Run to my shop.
Seems rather pricey to buy a bunch of expensive conduit along with the
accompanying installation headaches associated with it.
Just conduit the sections entering the structures at both ends per
local codes. Sounded like you were contemplating digging anyway so
figured I would suggest it. Hope you get it fixed.
>
The conduit was already installed, I just replaced about 16 ft.
PVC conduit is cheap.
I'm all done with the job all is well, even my back.
Thanks, Mikek
> Why not just get some 10/2/G gray underground wire and dispense with the conduit. It's really tough stuff and will last a long time. That's what I used on an 110 ft. Run to my shop.
Seems rather pricey to buy a bunch of expensive conduit along with the
accompanying installation headaches associated with it.
Just conduit the sections entering the structures at both ends per
local codes. Sounded like you were contemplating digging anyway so
figured I would suggest it. Hope you get it fixed.
>
The conduit was already installed, I just replaced about 16 ft.
PVC conduit is cheap.
I'm all done with the job all is well, even my back.
Thanks, Mikek
R
Ron M.
Guest
Cool. Glad you got it sorted out.
Guest
>"Why not just get some 10/2/G gray underground wire and dispense with the conduit. "
The designation for that used to be "UF". Tough as hell to strip.
For heavier load 10-3 would be better, with half of the freezers on one sid of the 240 voltas and the other half on the other leg. This way you are not imposing alot of voltage on the neutral. Less loss mean better efficiency..
Too much load and you can unbalance the whole thing, where you might have only 105 volts on one side and 135 on the other even in the rest of the house, building or whatever. Depends on the service coming in. I have see up to about 30 volts on a neutral. That was when I was running two 110 AC units in different rooms, but off the same leg.
A dozen feezers or so might make it even worse.
The designation for that used to be "UF". Tough as hell to strip.
For heavier load 10-3 would be better, with half of the freezers on one sid of the 240 voltas and the other half on the other leg. This way you are not imposing alot of voltage on the neutral. Less loss mean better efficiency..
Too much load and you can unbalance the whole thing, where you might have only 105 volts on one side and 135 on the other even in the rest of the house, building or whatever. Depends on the service coming in. I have see up to about 30 volts on a neutral. That was when I was running two 110 AC units in different rooms, but off the same leg.
A dozen feezers or so might make it even worse.
A
amdx
Guest
On 5/12/2014 7:34 PM, jurb6006@gmail.com wrote:
You're confusing two projects, The cable I recently ran in the conduit
was out to my work shed.
Many years ago I ran 220 to the freezers I put in a sub box and did
split it evenly with four breakers..
The freezer project has worked flawlessly, I have never pop a breaker.
Mikek
You're confusing two projects, The cable I recently ran in the conduit
was out to my work shed.
Many years ago I ran 220 to the freezers I put in a sub box and did
split it evenly with four breakers..
The freezer project has worked flawlessly, I have never pop a breaker.
Mikek
R
Ron M.
Guest
Congratulations to both of them.
R
Ron M.
Guest
Congratulations to both of them.
Guest
I'm hoping someone who makes PCB blanks may be able to chip-in; or some guy working in manufacturing. Those http://electronics.stackexchange.com are mostly design guys i think.. so I doubt they'd know, or are keen on knowing anything about manufacturing.
M
Michael Black
Guest
On Wed, 21 May 2014, vek.m1234@gmail.com wrote:
Too expensive.
So I have no idea if it's because the 'surplus" stuff isn't the same, or
that buying in small quantities makes it expensive, or that as "scrap' it
becomes cheap.
I bought some icky stuff at Etco in the early days, "surplus" but a sort
of bakelite backing, shattered so easily, and the copper came off, but it
was cheap. Then started buying at hamfest, and a different surplus place.
ALways cheap there, though again I have no idea if it's the same board.
It was certainly of varying quality, but always seemingly quite good
(except that stuff I bought at Meshna's one summer while on family
vacation, too thick fibreglass to e useful).
The surplus place often had odds and ends, clearly leftovers from some
commercial run. FOr some purposes, even the board that had been drilled
was fine, using as breadboard some holes didn't matter, unless the hole
density was too much.
Michael
Except right at the beginning, I have never bought "new" circuit board.
Too expensive.
So I have no idea if it's because the 'surplus" stuff isn't the same, or
that buying in small quantities makes it expensive, or that as "scrap' it
becomes cheap.
I bought some icky stuff at Etco in the early days, "surplus" but a sort
of bakelite backing, shattered so easily, and the copper came off, but it
was cheap. Then started buying at hamfest, and a different surplus place.
ALways cheap there, though again I have no idea if it's the same board.
It was certainly of varying quality, but always seemingly quite good
(except that stuff I bought at Meshna's one summer while on family
vacation, too thick fibreglass to e useful).
The surplus place often had odds and ends, clearly leftovers from some
commercial run. FOr some purposes, even the board that had been drilled
was fine, using as breadboard some holes didn't matter, unless the hole
density was too much.
Michael
Guest
On Wednesday, 21 May 2014 13:49:22 UTC+1, vek....@gmail.com wrote:
> I'm hoping someone who makes PCB blanks may be able to chip-in; or some guy working in manufacturing. Those http://electronics.stackexchange.com are mostly design guys i think.. so I doubt they'd know, or are keen on knowing anything about manufacturing.
What makes you think PCBs are expensive, I wouldn;t say they are cheap.
Whe you say PCB blanks what do you mean, I assume you mean something like this.
http://www.rapidonline.com/design-technology/copper-clad-single-sided-fr4-fibre-glass-board-233-4-x-220mm-34-0815
which I don't think is too expensive. If yuor'e talking about producing a PCB then the first cost goes on tools setup for a 1 off is expensive, but that goes for most thyings.
> I'm hoping someone who makes PCB blanks may be able to chip-in; or some guy working in manufacturing. Those http://electronics.stackexchange.com are mostly design guys i think.. so I doubt they'd know, or are keen on knowing anything about manufacturing.
What makes you think PCBs are expensive, I wouldn;t say they are cheap.
Whe you say PCB blanks what do you mean, I assume you mean something like this.
http://www.rapidonline.com/design-technology/copper-clad-single-sided-fr4-fibre-glass-board-233-4-x-220mm-34-0815
which I don't think is too expensive. If yuor'e talking about producing a PCB then the first cost goes on tools setup for a 1 off is expensive, but that goes for most thyings.
Guest
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/what-bonds-the-copper-to-fr4-or-how-could-i-make-a-custom-shaped-board/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_tDQTgdsCg
I found this useful, though the questions still remain.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_tDQTgdsCg
I found this useful, though the questions still remain.
J
John Fields
Guest
On Thu, 22 May 2014 09:36:36 -0700 (PDT), vek.m1234@gmail.com wrote:
---
The only real question I can see is: "Why are you posting this
crap?"
For example, if you were serious you'd have unit costs for various
weights of copper foil, FR-4, adhesives, and processing all
tabulated and compared with the finished price of the raw copperclad
in order to justify your contention.
Do you?
Of course not, since all you really want to do is flap your gums and
waste everyone's time with your mindless, off-topic drivel.
John Fields
---
The only real question I can see is: "Why are you posting this
crap?"
For example, if you were serious you'd have unit costs for various
weights of copper foil, FR-4, adhesives, and processing all
tabulated and compared with the finished price of the raw copperclad
in order to justify your contention.
Do you?
Of course not, since all you really want to do is flap your gums and
waste everyone's time with your mindless, off-topic drivel.
John Fields