Chip with simple program for Toy

amdx · May 4, 2014

On 5/3/2014 1:39 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:

On Sat, 03 May 2014 12:56:16 -0500, amdx <nojunk@knology.net> wrote:

On 5/3/2014 12:53 PM, jurb6006@gmail.com wrote:
"he "test" button on the GFCI should work even if there is no ground to
the GFCI. So you may have more than one problem here. "

I suggest you recheck that.

A GF interrupter works by a current transformer with the windings set to reject differential mode signals. It transforms common mode current into a voltage which is used to "trip" the circuit open.

A GFCI or GFI will work without a proper ground, but the test button will NOT because it tests by inserting a resistor from the hot to the ground (not neutral) which upsets the balance of current, which is the same thing that appens when current is going through a person to an earth ground, or anything other than THAT neutral. (yup, each GFI circuit requires an isolated neutral for that reason)

There is, in short (no pun intended) no other way for the test button to work because if the only wires that are available are hot and neutral, there is no way to induce common mode current through the transformer.

Hmm...

Mikek

I have a gadget...

http://tinyurl.com/kwyv4hp

that I got at Radio Shack (looks discontinued there), that not only
tests GCFI's, but has an array of LED's on the back that test for
outlets wired in the proper Hot/Com/Gnd sequence.

I bought it a number of years ago when I discovered a bass-ackwards
wired outlet at the old house. Anytime I see a peculiarity with
electrical I first test the outlet.

...Jim Thompson

I bought the gadget, it tells me that I have, HOT and NEU REV.
I know that is not correct. btw, I did check it on a few other outlets
that check ok. So, I did this, I drove a rod into the soil, I measured
from the HOT (shorter slot) to the rod, 123V. I measured from neutral,
(the longer slot), to the rod, 1.6V. Then I measured from the ground pin
to the rod, 91V. So, I measure 91Vac on the ground wire, that means I
has to be open between the house and the workshed. I don't know why it
has 91 Volts on it though. I did recheck the outlet on the outside of
the house and it is OK. My previous in the garage measurements were in
error, everything in the garage is OK, except the outlets are 40 years
old and make poor connection on the slots.
With the info I now have, I'm confident it is a repair gone bad.
About 15 years ago I installed a tripod for an antenna. My first few
shovels of dirt found and cut the pvc conduit between the house and work
shed. So. I installed a box and repaired the wires. I moved the tripod a
few feet.
We have had 10 or 15 inches of rain during the last 7 to 10 days, I had
a little standing water in the area where the repair was made. I suspect
I'll have the shovel out in the morning. Damn!
Mikek

PS. I also bought the non contact voltage tester, it's pretty neat, get
it within an inch of an ac cord and it beeps. I measured 2-1/2" from my
soldering iron ac cord when it beeped, this is when off.

Jim Thompson · May 4, 2014

On Sat, 03 May 2014 16:50:41 -0500, amdx <nojunk@knology.net> wrote:

On 5/3/2014 1:39 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
On Sat, 03 May 2014 12:56:16 -0500, amdx <nojunk@knology.net> wrote:

On 5/3/2014 12:53 PM, jurb6006@gmail.com wrote:
"he "test" button on the GFCI should work even if there is no ground to
the GFCI. So you may have more than one problem here. "

I suggest you recheck that.

A GF interrupter works by a current transformer with the windings set to reject differential mode signals. It transforms common mode current into a voltage which is used to "trip" the circuit open.

A GFCI or GFI will work without a proper ground, but the test button will NOT because it tests by inserting a resistor from the hot to the ground (not neutral) which upsets the balance of current, which is the same thing that appens when current is going through a person to an earth ground, or anything other than THAT neutral. (yup, each GFI circuit requires an isolated neutral for that reason)

There is, in short (no pun intended) no other way for the test button to work because if the only wires that are available are hot and neutral, there is no way to induce common mode current through the transformer.

Hmm...

Mikek

I have a gadget...

http://tinyurl.com/kwyv4hp

that I got at Radio Shack (looks discontinued there), that not only
tests GCFI's, but has an array of LED's on the back that test for
outlets wired in the proper Hot/Com/Gnd sequence.

I bought it a number of years ago when I discovered a bass-ackwards
wired outlet at the old house. Anytime I see a peculiarity with
electrical I first test the outlet.

...Jim Thompson

I bought the gadget, it tells me that I have, HOT and NEU REV.
I know that is not correct. btw, I did check it on a few other outlets
that check ok. So, I did this, I drove a rod into the soil, I measured
from the HOT (shorter slot) to the rod, 123V. I measured from neutral,
(the longer slot), to the rod, 1.6V. Then I measured from the ground pin
to the rod, 91V. So, I measure 91Vac on the ground wire, that means I
has to be open between the house and the workshed. I don't know why it
has 91 Volts on it though. I did recheck the outlet on the outside of
the house and it is OK. My previous in the garage measurements were in
error, everything in the garage is OK, except the outlets are 40 years
old and make poor connection on the slots.
With the info I now have, I'm confident it is a repair gone bad.
About 15 years ago I installed a tripod for an antenna. My first few
shovels of dirt found and cut the pvc conduit between the house and work
shed. So. I installed a box and repaired the wires. I moved the tripod a
few feet.
We have had 10 or 15 inches of rain during the last 7 to 10 days, I had
a little standing water in the area where the repair was made. I suspect
I'll have the shovel out in the morning. Damn!
Mikek

PS. I also bought the non contact voltage tester, it's pretty neat, get
it within an inch of an ac cord and it beeps. I measured 2-1/2" from my
soldering iron ac cord when it beeped, this is when off.

You just _know_ how it will be... rain in the morning >:-}

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice

amdx · May 4, 2014

On 5/3/2014 4:58 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:

On Sat, 03 May 2014 16:50:41 -0500, amdx <nojunk@knology.net> wrote:

On 5/3/2014 1:39 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
On Sat, 03 May 2014 12:56:16 -0500, amdx <nojunk@knology.net> wrote:

On 5/3/2014 12:53 PM, jurb6006@gmail.com wrote:
"he "test" button on the GFCI should work even if there is no ground to
the GFCI. So you may have more than one problem here. "

I suggest you recheck that.

A GF interrupter works by a current transformer with the windings set to reject differential mode signals. It transforms common mode current into a voltage which is used to "trip" the circuit open.

A GFCI or GFI will work without a proper ground, but the test button will NOT because it tests by inserting a resistor from the hot to the ground (not neutral) which upsets the balance of current, which is the same thing that appens when current is going through a person to an earth ground, or anything other than THAT neutral. (yup, each GFI circuit requires an isolated neutral for that reason)

There is, in short (no pun intended) no other way for the test button to work because if the only wires that are available are hot and neutral, there is no way to induce common mode current through the transformer.

Hmm...

Mikek

I have a gadget...

http://tinyurl.com/kwyv4hp

that I got at Radio Shack (looks discontinued there), that not only
tests GCFI's, but has an array of LED's on the back that test for
outlets wired in the proper Hot/Com/Gnd sequence.

I bought it a number of years ago when I discovered a bass-ackwards
wired outlet at the old house. Anytime I see a peculiarity with
electrical I first test the outlet.

...Jim Thompson

I bought the gadget, it tells me that I have, HOT and NEU REV.
I know that is not correct. btw, I did check it on a few other outlets
that check ok. So, I did this, I drove a rod into the soil, I measured
from the HOT (shorter slot) to the rod, 123V. I measured from neutral,
(the longer slot), to the rod, 1.6V. Then I measured from the ground pin
to the rod, 91V. So, I measure 91Vac on the ground wire, that means I
has to be open between the house and the workshed. I don't know why it
has 91 Volts on it though. I did recheck the outlet on the outside of
the house and it is OK. My previous in the garage measurements were in
error, everything in the garage is OK, except the outlets are 40 years
old and make poor connection on the slots.
With the info I now have, I'm confident it is a repair gone bad.
About 15 years ago I installed a tripod for an antenna. My first few
shovels of dirt found and cut the pvc conduit between the house and work
shed. So. I installed a box and repaired the wires. I moved the tripod a
few feet.
We have had 10 or 15 inches of rain during the last 7 to 10 days, I had
a little standing water in the area where the repair was made. I suspect
I'll have the shovel out in the morning. Damn!
Mikek

PS. I also bought the non contact voltage tester, it's pretty neat, get
it within an inch of an ac cord and it beeps. I measured 2-1/2" from my
soldering iron ac cord when it beeped, this is when off.

You just _know_ how it will be... rain in the morning >:-}

...Jim Thompson

I wouldn't mind putting of the repair! I brought the original job that
started all this (cutting some slots in a 2" square aluminum tube) into
the garage and got it done. I can take it to the boat in the morning and
check the fit, and make adjustments if needed.
I'm adding a short extension on the rear of my pontoon boat, (my
business office

. I bought 60 feet of 2" square tube with 1/8" wall
and cut it all to size. I bought a TIG welder and when I get my helmet
delivered, I'll start practicing *tigging! Then I'll finish my project.
For those questioning my 3 pin drill motor, I found an ad in
Popular Mechanics, Jan 1966, so it must have been manufactured in 1965
or before. It is almost 50 years old, WOW. See page 10.

http://tinyurl.com/nxzad2x

I used it instead of my cordless because it is powerful, it would have
taken much longer with my cordless.

Mikek
* I always wanted to learn to weld aluminum. Now I'm going to do it.

amdx · May 4, 2014

On 5/3/2014 6:31 PM, jurb6006@gmail.com wrote:

"US, 1973. An outlet has 2 screws on each side, the incoming wire was
attached to one screw the wire leading to the freezer went to the other
screw. If you are suggesting that doesn't meet code, I can understand
why. It's not like that anymore. "

It really doesn't HAVE to be upgraded, but on new construction or major rehabs all the new stuff has to be like that. Ibe;ieve there are som new rules about shared neutrals - also for good reason. If you google that, you'll find that people have died because of shared neutrals. If you add the device as the splice deal and share neutrals, you are asking for it.

But it weas all legal. Probably so was a French three way. There's a nicee cool unsafe thing to look up. Got an ex-Wife who might need some wiring done ? I got bills lol.

"Has anyone used the non contact voltage detectors, and can I just hold
it near a romax wire to verify it is hot?"

I don't trust shit like that.

You missed my reason for that, I want to shut down all CB's and find
which wire is the one going to the garage, by using the non contact
voltage tester to see the live wire. To many wires going that direction.
But, I'm beyond that scenario now, I'm into the digging up the yard
part, and repair the connection.

Mikek

May 4, 2014

jurb6006@gmail.com wrote:

mroberds@att.net wrote:
The "test" button on the GFCI should work even if there is no ground
to the GFCI. So you may have more than one problem here.

I suggest you recheck that.

I just did. More below.

A GF interrupter works by a current transformer with the windings set
to reject differential mode signals. It transforms common mode current
into a voltage which is used to "trip" the circuit open.

Sure. Consider the following guts of a GFCI. It is shown in the
"tripped" or open condition. Use a fixed-width font such as Courier.

/
A B C /I
Live ---*--*----@@@@@---*---o I o--- Live
| ===== I
+--+ +-@@@@@-+ I
| | | I
| ------------- I
GFCI +---|measure and| I GFCI
"line" | compare |.....I "load"
side +---| current | I side
| ------------- I
| | | I
+--+ +-@@@@@-+ /
| ===== /
Neutral ---*--*----@@@@@---*---o o--- Neutral
D E F

The @@@@@ things are the current transformers. The connections at B and
E provide the extra juice needed (if any) for the "measure and compare
current" box to work. The "measure and compare current" also contains
the solenoid that operates the mechanical linkage (... and I) to the two
switches to open up the connection to the "load" side. Note that there
are no connections to ground in this anywhere.

Now, connect a 1200 ohm resistor from C to D. What happens?

Alternatively, connect a 1200 ohm resistor from A to F. What happens?

The test button is inside the GFCI, so it has access to the line both
before and after the current measurement. It can grab some "unmetered"
juice - before the current transformer - to test with.

I also got out my suicide cord and a brand new Leviton GFCI and tried
it. I wired the black wire from the cord to the brass "line" terminal
on the GFCI, and the white wire from the cord to the silver "line"
terminal on the GFCI. I left the ground wire from the cord
unconnected. I didn't connect anything to the "load" terminals or the
ground terminal on the GFCI. I placed the GFCI on an insulated surface.
I plugged my three-neon-lights tester into an outlet in my house and
verified it was wired correctly. I plugged the suicide cord into that
same outlet.

I pressed the "reset" button on the GFCI and it latched in. I pressed
the "test" button on the GFCI and it tripped. I repeated this two more
times with the same results.

The installation instructions for the GFCI include the line "Connect the
grounding wire (only if there is a grounding wire)". The test procedure
in the instructions does not change if the ground wire is not connected.

Therefore, I stand by my statement that the "test" button on the GFCI
should work even if there is no ground to the GFCI.

The GFCI is a Leviton catalog number N7599. The stickers on the GFCI
say "LEVITON N7599 INSP. 1H42I 43644-04 Z 7" and "(UL) LISTED GROUND
FAULT CIRCUIT INTERRUPTER CLASS A 2 POLE UNIT 20A 125V 60HZ ISSUE
NO. B-511,882 LEVITON MFG. CO. INC. I"

The installation instructions are apparently Leviton document number
PK-93750-10-00-2A.

Product link on Leviton's website:
<http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ProductDetail.jsp?partnumber=N7599&section=42317&minisite=10251>

Instruction link on Leviton's website (PDF):
<http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ibcGetAttachment.jsp?cItemId=9f4wV.lr41jyOds3nTgqeA&label=IBE&appName=IBE&minisite=10251>

See also this entry of the electrical wiring FAQ:
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/electrical-wiring/part1/section-35.html

NOTE: If you are using one of those "plug with three neon lights plus a
button" testers on a GFCI, then I completely agree that those kinds of
testers need a ground to work. They can't reach "inside" the GFCI, so
the best they can do is dump some current from Live to Ground. That
wasn't the original poster's situation, though.

Matt Roberds

May 4, 2014

amdx <nojunk@knology.net> wrote:

On 5/3/2014 1:39 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
I have a gadget...

http://tinyurl.com/kwyv4hp

that I got at Radio Shack (looks discontinued there), that not only
tests GCFI's, but has an array of LED's on the back that test for
outlets wired in the proper Hot/Com/Gnd sequence.

Actually, probably NE-2s or similar neon lamps, not LEDs. These things
are an excellent quick sanity check. I have one in my house-wiring
toolbox. I know a guy that has an RV and he always has one plugged in
to one of the kitchen outlets; not all RV park electrical boxes are
wired correctly.

They can be fooled... the neon lamps only need a few mA, so they won't
tell you if you have a high resistance connection somewhere. But if
they say something is wrong, it often is.

The super-duper version is made by Fluke or Ideal and has a built-in
voltmeter with LCD. It can also measure the voltage before and after
it applies a high load to the circuit and calculate the percent voltage
drop in the wiring. I watched the home inspector go around this house
with one and you could watch the voltage drops build up the further
along he got on each receptacle circuit. This is total overkill for
fixing Mikek's (amdx's) problem, but I figured I would mention it.

The poor-boy super-duper version is a Kill-a-watt or equal, a small
space heater, and a pad and pencil to do some cipherin'.

> I bought the gadget, it tells me that I have, HOT and NEU REV.

If this is at the GFCI in the shed, that may explain why the "test"
button on that GFCI doesn't work. (Even with an open ground... see my
recent response to jurb6006 for why the "test" button should always
work.)

> I don't know why [the ground wire] has 91 Volts on it though.

If you were using a digital multimeter, it probably has a very high
input impedance, and it will sometimes see voltage that isn't really
there. Swap a 100 watt light bulb for the meter and see what it does;
you'll probably find that it lights hot-to-rod, but not neutral-to-rod
or ground-to-rod.

My previous in the garage measurements were in error, everything in
the garage is OK, except the outlets are 40 years old and make poor
connection on the slots.

That's a different rainy-day project for the spring or fall (when you
can turn off the juice without interrupting the furnace or aircon). Buy
"spec grade" outlets of the right color in boxes of 10 at your favorite
big-box store and work around the house replacing them. (The "spec
grade" stuff should cost about $1 apiece.) I have seen electrically-
ignited house fires and I didn't like what I saw even a little bit.

About 15 years ago I installed a tripod for an antenna. My first few
shovels of dirt found and cut the pvc conduit between the house and
work shed. So. I installed a box and repaired the wires.

Aha!

Call before you dig... except finding that particular wire is your
baby, not the power company's.

PS. I also bought the non contact voltage tester, it's pretty neat,
get it within an inch of an ac cord and it beeps.

Those are fun. If there is a place in your house where you know there
is a live cable behind drywall or stucco or wood or whatever, you might
try it there to see if the tester can "see" the cable through the
covering.

I had an older one that wouldn't beep when you put it on the Netural
side of a flat lamp cord (SPT-1 or SPT-2), but would if you put it on
the Hot side. If you ran it along a round orange outdoor extension
cord, it would beep when the Hot wire twisted close to that side but
not everywhere.

Tip: When using one of these, always try it first on a circuit that you
know is live to make sure it is still working. If you want to be really
sure, test it on a known-live circuit, then test your unknown circuit,
then test the known-live circuit again.

Matt Roberds

Jasen Betts · May 4, 2014

On 2014-05-03, jurb6006@gmail.com <jurb6006@gmail.com> wrote:

"he "test" button on the GFCI should work even if there is no ground to
the GFCI. So you may have more than one problem here. "

I suggest you recheck that.

A GF interrupter works by a current transformer with the windings set to reject differential mode signals. It transforms common mode current into a voltage which is used to "trip" the circuit open.

A GFCI or GFI will work withou a proper ground, but the test button
will NOT because it tests by inserting a resistor from the hot to the
ground (not neutral) which upsets the balance of current, which is the
same thing that appens when current is going through a person to an
earth ground, or anything other than THAT neutral. (yup, each GFI
circuit requires an isolated neutral for that reason)

I've got one here that the test button works with no ground, I'm guessing
the test passes between the protected hot and unprotected neutral (or vice
versa) It's a GFCI power strip.

The advantage of doing it this way is that the test-button won't
trigger upstream GFCI breakers.

but for hardwired GFCI outlets the advantage may swing the other way.

There is, in short (no pun intended) no other way for the test button to work because if the only wires that are available are hot and neutral, there is no way to induce common mode current through the transformer.

--
umop apisdn

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: news@netfront.net ---

May 4, 2014

>"I'm guessing
the test passes between the protected hot and unprotected neutral (or vice
versa) It's a GFCI power strip. "

That makes sense, it's just something I didn't think of. I stand corrected.

The main point though is that it does not need a ground to work, as some people hever tried to say. Not here, I just heard that a few times and thought it was a common misconcepton. You should hear some of the total BS some of these people at DIY type stores (Lowe's, Home Depot) tell people.

May 4, 2014

>"Alternatively, connect a 1200 ohm resistor from A to F. What happens?"

As I just posted, I really didn't think of that. I stand corrected.

May 4, 2014

Do they really use 1200 ohms ? That seems a bit low. I think you would want the thing to be more sensitive than to trip at 100 mA.

amdx · May 4, 2014

On 5/4/2014 2:10 AM, mroberds@att.net wrote:

amdx <nojunk@knology.net> wrote:
On 5/3/2014 1:39 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
I have a gadget...

http://tinyurl.com/kwyv4hp

that I got at Radio Shack (looks discontinued there), that not only
tests GCFI's, but has an array of LED's on the back that test for
outlets wired in the proper Hot/Com/Gnd sequence.

Actually, probably NE-2s or similar neon lamps, not LEDs. These things
are an excellent quick sanity check. I have one in my house-wiring
toolbox. I know a guy that has an RV and he always has one plugged in
to one of the kitchen outlets; not all RV park electrical boxes are
wired correctly.

They can be fooled... the neon lamps only need a few mA, so they won't
tell you if you have a high resistance connection somewhere. But if
they say something is wrong, it often is.

The super-duper version is made by Fluke or Ideal and has a built-in
voltmeter with LCD. It can also measure the voltage before and after
it applies a high load to the circuit and calculate the percent voltage
drop in the wiring. I watched the home inspector go around this house
with one and you could watch the voltage drops build up the further
along he got on each receptacle circuit. This is total overkill for
fixing Mikek's (amdx's) problem, but I figured I would mention it.

The poor-boy super-duper version is a Kill-a-watt or equal, a small
space heater, and a pad and pencil to do some cipherin'.

I bought the gadget, it tells me that I have, HOT and NEU REV.

If this is at the GFCI in the shed, that may explain why the "test"
button on that GFCI doesn't work. (Even with an open ground... see my
recent response to jurb6006 for why the "test" button should always
work.)

I don't know why [the ground wire] has 91 Volts on it though.

If you were using a digital multimeter, it probably has a very high
input impedance, and it will sometimes see voltage that isn't really
there. Swap a 100 watt light bulb for the meter and see what it does;
you'll probably find that it lights hot-to-rod, but not neutral-to-rod
or ground-to-rod.

Yes I'm measuring with a high impedance DVM, and I understand the
voltage reading would drop if I put a load on it.

My previous in the garage measurements were in error, everything in
the garage is OK, except the outlets are 40 years old and make poor
connection on the slots.

That's a different rainy-day project for the spring or fall (when you
can turn off the juice without interrupting the furnace or aircon). Buy
"spec grade" outlets of the right color in boxes of 10 at your favorite
big-box store and work around the house replacing them. (The "spec
grade" stuff should cost about $1 apiece.) I have seen electrically-
ignited house fires and I didn't like what I saw even a little bit.

About 15 years ago I installed a tripod for an antenna. My first few
shovels of dirt found and cut the pvc conduit between the house and
work shed. So. I installed a box and repaired the wires.

Aha!

Call before you dig... except finding that particular wire is your
baby, not the power company's.

I'm lucky and unlucky like that. That time I hit the conduit, the ONE
conduit running through my yard. Another time I was ready to spend a
weekend digging up a sewer line to install a cleanout, within three
shovel fulls I hit the clean out cover. I had no clue it was there.
I was one happy clam for the rest of the weekend.

PS. I also bought the non contact voltage tester, it's pretty neat,
get it within an inch of an ac cord and it beeps.

Those are fun. If there is a place in your house where you know there
is a live cable behind drywall or stucco or wood or whatever, you might
try it there to see if the tester can "see" the cable through the
covering.

Ya, I tried finding wire in the wall, I didn't have any luck. I bought
the more expensive non contact because it said it worked down to 50
volts, the cheaper ones said 100 volts.

I had an older one that wouldn't beep when you put it on the Netural
side of a flat lamp cord (SPT-1 or SPT-2), but would if you put it on
the Hot side. If you ran it along a round orange outdoor extension
cord, it would beep when the Hot wire twisted close to that side but
not everywhere.

Tip: When using one of these, always try it first on a circuit that you
know is live to make sure it is still working. If you want to be really
sure, test it on a known-live circuit, then test your unknown circuit,
then test the known-live circuit again.

Matt Roberds

RobertMacy · May 4, 2014

On Sun, 04 May 2014 07:00:36 -0700, amdx <nojunk@knology.net> wrote:

..snip....
Ya, I tried finding wire in the wall, I didn't have any luck. I bought
the more expensive non contact because it said it worked down to 50
volts, the cheaper ones said 100 volts.

I bought the Sperry Wire Tracker at HD for ?? $26 and it has proved useful
at finding ALL the wires in our home. Even the wires that went to an
outlet but never come out through the drywall! The workman just drywalled
over that outlet! It was for a built-in fridge, so I was happy to find the
wired outlet and not have to pull new wires.

The principle works on injecting squeaky tones into the cable, you then
walk along the wire with the portable unit listening for a response. If
wire is isolated AND it's a quiet day, you can get about an 18 inch range
to find/track a wire.

May 5, 2014

On Sat, 03 May 2014 20:06:24 -0500, amdx <nojunk@knology.net> wrote:

On 5/3/2014 6:31 PM, jurb6006@gmail.com wrote:
"US, 1973. An outlet has 2 screws on each side, the incoming wire was
attached to one screw the wire leading to the freezer went to the other
screw. If you are suggesting that doesn't meet code, I can understand
why. It's not like that anymore. "

It really doesn't HAVE to be upgraded, but on new construction or major rehabs all the new stuff has to be like that. Ibe;ieve there are som new rules about shared neutrals - also for good reason. If you google that, you'll find that people have died because of shared neutrals. If you add the device as the splice deal and share neutrals, you are asking for it.

But it weas all legal. Probably so was a French three way. There's a nicee cool unsafe thing to look up. Got an ex-Wife who might need some wiring done ? I got bills lol.

"Has anyone used the non contact voltage detectors, and can I just hold
it near a romax wire to verify it is hot?"

I don't trust shit like that.

You missed my reason for that, I want to shut down all CB's and find
which wire is the one going to the garage, by using the non contact
voltage tester to see the live wire. To many wires going that direction.
But, I'm beyond that scenario now, I'm into the digging up the yard
part, and repair the connection.

Mikek

It sounds to me, from your statement above and a previous statement,
that the line was repaired and that the repair was buried. I'm not
sure what code says about splices being buried. In your house no
splices are allowed unless they are in a box and that the box is
accessible. This means that the box cannot be covered by drywall, for
example, but could be located in the attic, as long as you can get up
into the attic. I suspect that the code is similar for underground
wires. The reason I suspect this is because when my neighbor's well
was wired the longest length of direct burial wire available was
shorter than the distance to his well. So the wire was spliced. The
wire was brought above ground in conduit and into a box on a post. The
wire was spliced in the box and then entered conduit again to go back
underground. When you fix your wire you may want to consider this. At
least maybe bury a box with a hand hole in the ground and put your
splice in it. I know you can buy splices for wire that is meant to be
exposed to ground water, that these splices use special wire nuts and
some kind of goop to make them waterproof, but I don't know if these
splices need to be in a box. I know that sometimes code seems onerous
but the reasons for the way the electrical code is are to keep
electrocutions to a minimum. Even if burying a splice is OK I would
still put the splice in a box because it is the weak spot in the run.
I used to live in a neighboorhood that had one of the first
underground power systems in the country. The transformers that you
usually see on poles were buried in the yards of a few folks on my
street. The wires and the transformers were all direct burial, nothing
was in conduit, boxes, or vaults. The whole neighboorhood was built on
reclaimed wetland and so the ground water level was only a foot or so
below the surface. This meant that all the wires and transformers were
under water year round. While I lived there the installation started
to fail because water started to leak into transformers and
connections. So the transformers were dug up and replaced with new,
better ones. They were also placed in vaults. These new vaults had
grates at ground level and you could see into them. You could see
these vaults flooding and I asked one of the guys from Puget Power why
bother with vaults if they were going to flood anyway. He said that
when the transformers needed repair or replacement it was MUCH easier
to work on them when they were in a vault that kept the mud off the
equipment. He told me that digging out and around the old
transformers and trying to work on them was a nightmare because of all
the mud and clay. You may appreciate this someday if your splice needs
work again and it is not only easy to find because of the hand hole
cover it is also not covered with dirt or mud.
Eric

May 5, 2014

jurb6006@gmail.com wrote:

Do they really use 1200 ohms ? That seems a bit low. I think you would
want the thing to be more sensitive than to trip at 100 mA.

In practice it's more than that. I originally wrote 100 ohms but I
figured then somebody would say "the resistor would blow up". I *think*
the GFCI trip current is down around 10 mA or so in practice. It can't
be zero because we live in an imperfect world, and because Y capacitors
exist.

I also think that GFCIs exist with different trip current settings; the
ones that are sold for household use have a relatively low one, while
I've read that you can get ones with a higher setting for specialized
applications. I've never held one of those in my hand, though.

Matt Roberds

amdx · May 5, 2014

On 5/4/2014 4:44 PM, etpm@whidbey.com wrote:

On Sat, 03 May 2014 20:06:24 -0500, amdx <nojunk@knology.net> wrote:

On 5/3/2014 6:31 PM, jurb6006@gmail.com wrote:
"US, 1973. An outlet has 2 screws on each side, the incoming wire was
attached to one screw the wire leading to the freezer went to the other
screw. If you are suggesting that doesn't meet code, I can understand
why. It's not like that anymore. "

It really doesn't HAVE to be upgraded, but on new construction or major rehabs all the new stuff has to be like that. Ibe;ieve there are som new rules about shared neutrals - also for good reason. If you google that, you'll find that people have died because of shared neutrals. If you add the device as the splice deal and share neutrals, you are asking for it.

But it weas all legal. Probably so was a French three way. There's a nicee cool unsafe thing to look up. Got an ex-Wife who might need some wiring done ? I got bills lol.

"Has anyone used the non contact voltage detectors, and can I just hold
it near a romax wire to verify it is hot?"

I don't trust shit like that.

You missed my reason for that, I want to shut down all CB's and find
which wire is the one going to the garage, by using the non contact
voltage tester to see the live wire. To many wires going that direction.
But, I'm beyond that scenario now, I'm into the digging up the yard
part, and repair the connection.

Mikek
It sounds to me, from your statement above and a previous statement,
that the line was repaired and that the repair was buried. I'm not
sure what code says about splices being buried. In your house no
splices are allowed unless they are in a box and that the box is
accessible. This means that the box cannot be covered by drywall, for
example, but could be located in the attic, as long as you can get up
into the attic. I suspect that the code is similar for underground
wires. The reason I suspect this is because when my neighbor's well
was wired the longest length of direct burial wire available was
shorter than the distance to his well. So the wire was spliced. The
wire was brought above ground in conduit and into a box on a post. The
wire was spliced in the box and then entered conduit again to go back
underground. When you fix your wire you may want to consider this. At
least maybe bury a box with a hand hole in the ground and put your
splice in it. I know you can buy splices for wire that is meant to be
exposed to ground water, that these splices use special wire nuts and
some kind of goop to make them waterproof, but I don't know if these
splices need to be in a box. I know that sometimes code seems onerous
but the reasons for the way the electrical code is are to keep
electrocutions to a minimum. Even if burying a splice is OK I would
still put the splice in a box because it is the weak spot in the run.

Yes, I'm contemplating running a new conduit, it is 50 to 60 ft,
but it is the only way to get a continuous cable run. huh, no it's not.
I can pull the cable, and run a new cable through the conduit. I can
even remove the box I buried and glue in new pipe. Then I don't need to
worry about the box filling with water during the next rain.
Great idea, I'm glad you thought of it. Thanks.

I used to live in a neighborhood that had one of the first
underground power systems in the country. The transformers that you
usually see on poles were buried in the yards of a few folks on my
street. The wires and the transformers were all direct burial, nothing
was in conduit, boxes, or vaults. The whole neighborhood was built on
reclaimed wetland and so the ground water level was only a foot or so
below the surface. This meant that all the wires and transformers were
under water year round. While I lived there the installation started
to fail because water started to leak into transformers and
connections. So the transformers were dug up and replaced with new,
better ones. They were also placed in vaults. These new vaults had
grates at ground level and you could see into them. You could see
these vaults flooding and I asked one of the guys from Puget Power why
bother with vaults if they were going to flood anyway. He said that
when the transformers needed repair or replacement it was MUCH easier
to work on them when they were in a vault that kept the mud off the
equipment. He told me that digging out and around the old
transformers and trying to work on them was a nightmare because of all
the mud and clay. You may appreciate this someday if your splice needs
work again and it is not only easy to find because of the hand hole
cover it is also not covered with dirt or mud.
Eric

Hmm... we just had the ground mounted transformer across the street
go bad (4-25-14), I wonder if it had anything to do with all the rain.
Mikek

Jasen Betts · May 5, 2014

On 2014-05-04, jurb6006@gmail.com <jurb6006@gmail.com> wrote:

That makes sense, it's just something I didn't think of. I stand corrected.

The main point though is that it does not need a ground to work, as
some people hever tried to say. Not here, I just heard that a few
times and thought it was a common misconcepton. You should hear some
of the total BS some of these people at DIY type stores (Lowe's, Home
Depot) tell people.

I got some good advice at the trade counter of a plumbing shop a few
years back it ammounted to "you're supposet to know that, don't ask
me, ask a plumber"

--
umop apisdn

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: news@netfront.net ---

ehsjr · May 5, 2014

On 5/3/2014 1:53 PM, jurb6006@gmail.com wrote:

"he "test" button on the GFCI should work even if there is no ground to
the GFCI. So you may have more than one problem here. "

I suggest you recheck that.

A GF interrupter works by a current transformer with the windings set to reject differential mode signals. It transforms common mode current into a voltage which is used to "trip" the circuit open.

A GFCI or GFI will work withou a proper ground, but the test button will NOT because it tests by inserting a resistor from the hot to the ground (not neutral) which upsets the balance of current, which is the same thing that appens when current is going through a person to an earth ground, or anything other than THAT neutral. (yup, each GFI circuit requires an isolated neutral for that reason)

There is, in short (no pun intended) no other way for the test button to work because if the only wires that are available are hot and neutral, there is no way to induce common mode current through the transformer.

That's not correct. The test button has to work even on an
ungrounded circuit. It connects a resistor from the line
side of the GFCI to the load side, one end to the neutral
and the other to the hot, through the test switch.

+-------------[15K]-----------+
| |
| ---- o
| | | |== test
hot---+---| |---hot--- o
| CT | |
neutral---| |---neutral----------+
| |
----

Ed

RobertMacy · May 5, 2014

On Sun, 04 May 2014 19:31:50 -0700, amdx <nojunk@knology.net> wrote:

...snip....
Yes, I'm contemplating running a new conduit, it is 50 to 60 ft,
but it is the only way to get a continuous cable run. huh, no it's not.
I can pull the cable, and run a new cable through the conduit. I can
even remove the box I buried and glue in new pipe. Then I don't need to
worry about the box filling with water during the next rain.
Great idea, I'm glad you thought of it. Thanks.
...snip....

We used to do security systems with lots of buired cables and connection
boxes. We buried our plastic connection boxes [all were ABS UV resistant
plastic] upside down with cables coming 'up' into the inverted box to
provide a bubble of dryness during those heavy rains. You could probably
get away with an inverted bleach bottle with top cut off [rinsed out] -
those things are big, thick, and don't deteriorate like drinking water
bottles will crack. Then put main water resistant box upside down inside
THAT. Double layer it.

Also, we would put 'drain' loops in all the buried cables. Sloped them
like drain pipes back to connection boxes. Found out it was best to assume
that water gets into EVERYTHING and we just needed to make sure it could
get back out. Even tried hermetically sealing control boxes - didn't work.
I know, I know, if we'd done it right it would have worked, but the point
is doing so is a major endeavour, and not worth it.

There are better products on the market now, but back then England [and
their shipping industry] had the best cureall for water [salt water]
intrusion, they had something that was like electrical tape, a black tarry
like tape, that you wrapped around each connections, then within short
time the tape dissolved into a solid lump, sealing the connection even
from salt water.

amdx · May 5, 2014

On 5/5/2014 9:40 AM, RobertMacy wrote:

On Sun, 04 May 2014 19:31:50 -0700, amdx <nojunk@knology.net> wrote:
...snip....
Yes, I'm contemplating running a new conduit, it is 50 to 60 ft,
but it is the only way to get a continuous cable run. huh, no it's not.
I can pull the cable, and run a new cable through the conduit. I can
even remove the box I buried and glue in new pipe. Then I don't need
to worry about the box filling with water during the next rain.
Great idea, I'm glad you thought of it. Thanks.
...snip....

We used to do security systems with lots of buired cables and connection
boxes. We buried our plastic connection boxes [all were ABS UV resistant
plastic] upside down with cables coming 'up' into the inverted box to
provide a bubble of dryness during those heavy rains. You could probably
get away with an inverted bleach bottle with top cut off [rinsed out] -
those things are big, thick, and don't deteriorate like drinking water
bottles will crack. Then put main water resistant box upside down inside
THAT. Double layer it.

Also, we would put 'drain' loops in all the buried cables. Sloped them
like drain pipes back to connection boxes. Found out it was best to
assume that water gets into EVERYTHING and we just needed to make sure
it could get back out. Even tried hermetically sealing control boxes -
didn't work. I know, I know, if we'd done it right it would have worked,
but the point is doing so is a major endeavour, and not worth it.

There are better products on the market now, but back then England [and
their shipping industry] had the best cureall for water [salt water]
intrusion, they had something that was like electrical tape, a black
tarry like tape, that you wrapped around each connections, then within
short time the tape dissolved into a solid lump, sealing the connection
even from salt water.

I think my solution will be to remove the existing wire, remove the
box and install conduit in its place. Then run 3 news conductors,
because they will be easier to pull then romax type wire. That way there
are no connections in the run.

Mikek

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Michael A. Terrell · May 6, 2014

amdx wrote:

I think my solution will be to remove the existing wire, remove the
box and install conduit in its place. Then run 3 news conductors,
because they will be easier to pull then romax type wire. That way there
are no connections in the run.

Mikek

You aren't supposed to use Romex in conduit.

--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

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