Bush Has Thanksgiving Dinner with Troops in Baghdad

Paul Burridge wrote:
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 08:29:34 -0700, Jim Thompson
invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

There should be a one year time limit on appeals... expedited at the
expense of the state... then hang 'em. None of this dawdling for 20
years.

It's certainly not cricket to keep someone hanging around for 20 years
before executing them, I agree (but for different reasons). But you
don't "hang 'em" in *any* state, now, do you? Is it not the case that
the Chair isn't even used these days?
-----------------------
Click to expand...
Nope, in Maryland it is a choice for that sniper, Mohammed.

-Steve
--
-Steve Walz rstevew@armory.com ftp://ftp.armory.com/pub/user/rstevew
Electronics Site!! 1000's of Files and Dirs!! With Schematics Galore!!
http://www.armory.com/~rstevew or http://www.armory.com/~rstevew/Public
 
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 10:48:32 -0500, Chuck Harris <cfharris@erols.com>
wrotd:

The fact that the murderer has had an unfortunate life doesn't
eliminate the murder he committed. It doesn't bring relief for the
grief felt by the victim's family. It doesn't bring back the victim.
Click to expand...
I hear you. The victim is usually forgotten. The thing that undid
Karla Faye Tucker in my estimation is that she was smoking marijuana
at about age 8 and shooting heroin in her mother's company by age 12.
She was encouraged into a.life of drug abuse. When she committed the
crime, it was not pre-meditated but she was stoned on about 4
different drugs. It wasn't a forced entry thing either, she knew one
of the victims.

I don't condone drug use as an excuse for crime. But when a child is
introduced to it by her parents and later can't deal with it, I don't
think it's entirely her fault. We have to take a certain
responsibility as a society for how we allow our young to be raised or
abused. In my experiences, I've found the average drug abuser to be an
intolerable liar to boot. She didn't lie about anything. She admitted
eveything. Not only that, she took full responsibility.

I've been so drunk on alcohol that I've done diabolocal things. Of
course, if I'd committed a crime, I'd see it as my fault for getting
myself so drunk. The point is that the things I did I could not
account for doing. I could not for the life of me figure out why I had
done them. All I could do was apologize and hope for forgiveness.

Karla Faye Tucker said the same thing. She could not understand why
she had committed the crime. She was so stoned it just happened.
That's a lot different than a Bundy or a Gacy stalking people and
killing them for no reason at all. Or, how about the Hillside
strangler sexually abusing his victims before killing them. I don't
think they executed him.

I'm just not for carte blanche killing people. Hopefully, if I took it
on myself to even the score over someone killing a relative of mine,
that calmer minds would intercede.
 
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 18:01:25 +0000 (UTC), Brian Trosko
<btrosko@panix.com> wrotd:

Keeping someone in jail until they die of natural causes doesn't seem to
be any more revocable.

So by your argument, we should also abolish life sentences.
Click to expand...
I don't think the human mind is capable of knowing absolutely that
someone has killed another person. By the time it gets to court, it is
third or fourth hand information presented by some slick lawyer or
prosecutor. Also, you are forced to judge under stringent guidelines,
often not being availed of all the facts.

I think that life sentences are a safe guard for the infallability of
th human mind. Look at the O. J. Simpson case. You had 11 out of 12
jurors who were black, and the case was being heard in a predominantly
black neoghbourhood. The jury forewoman, a black, said candidly, there
was no way they were going to convict him. I guess not, they could
never have gone home if they had.

The court process is absolutely crazy to me, if not downright scary.
People get railroaded every day. There are dishonest cops, dishonest
prosecutors and defence attorneys and bad judges. It's extremely hard
to get a fair trial unless your wealthy. In the case of Karla Faye
Tucker, many legal experts claim she was railroaded. She was given bad
advice by her lawyer initially and the judge screwed up bigtime.

I think there has to be allowances. Life sentences are safer. And they
are no picnic either.
 
And this entire thread has precisely WHAT to do with any of the
newsgroups it has been crossposted to?
Click to expand...
nothing, I aplogize for imposing. I feel strongly that we should stand
aside from our interests from time to time and address issues that
make us better humans. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

I don't hate George Bush, but there was a thread going about him and I
wanted to get my two-bits worth in.

:)
 
That's exactly my sentiments. In principle, I have no moral qualms
whatever in the execution of serial type killers. The issue is that,
executing an innocent person is *never* acceptable. This effectively
means one must outlaw the death penalty.
Click to expand...
Well put. I had no qualms about them executing Ted Bundy. Still, when
I saw that white hearse pull away with his body, I admit to feeling
sadness. Excutions become emotional issues and the human penchant for
them is peculiar. To me, it always brings sadnes when someone dies
even if I hated the guy. I even remember reading the story of Hitler's
death, a guy I reviled, yet I felt sorry for the buggar after he died.

In one psychological study, I thnik it was the Ashe or Asch study,
they had a volunteer in a booth connected to electrodes. He wasn't
really hooked up. People were asked to press different buttons which
were supposed to give him various degrees of shocks if he didn't do
what he was told to do. One button was marked 'LETHAL'.

It was amzing how many people pressed that lethal button, knowing full
ell they could kill the guy. I think the penchant for executions comes
from a deep, dark place in the human psyche. It seems to go deeper
than punishment or anything else. It's almost a bizarre control issue.

Of course, there is also the problem of punishing anyone without
absolute proof, but in the real would, there is no choice. We have to
accept some false guilt, but we don't have to accept false executions.
Click to expand...
If you study the human mind closely, it becomes scary as to it's
ability to understand truth. The human mind in t's normal state is
biased and distorted. I find juries to be scary.
 
In Texas, the governor does not have to the power to overrule
the decision of the Texas Board of Pardons; which ruled
against her. The most he (W) could do is give her a temperary
reprieve.
Click to expand...
That would be Mr. Idiot to you.

If you read my post accurately, you will see that I refered to a stay
of execution. The hope was that if Bush had extended her sentence the
30 days, there may have been time to bring some sanity into the
situation.

Texas has an abyssmal record of executions, of which Texans should be
ashamed as human beings. Has it ever occured to you that most of the
civilized world has abolished the death penalty while Texas goes in
the other direction?
You can hate the president if you want, but your can't use this
excuse. Her lawyers and the Texas Board of Pardons had
far more power to influence this situation than he (W) did.
Click to expand...

BTW...I don't hate George W. I find him quite comical at times and got
a kick out of him cavorting with the British Prime Minister on his
recent visit. And I applauded him for having the guts to bypass the
anaemic United Nations and bring relief to the people of Iraq. I'm
just sorry young Americans have to die over there. I think people of
all ages should go.

As for the Texas Board of Paroles and Pardons...now there's some real
idiots. They don't even meet to discuss the fate of someone who is to
be executed. They communicate by email. There's something like 18 of
them located throughout Texas, and they can't be bothered to face the
appellant.

Victor Rodrigez, the head of the board is another horses ass. He was
the only one who went to see Karla Tucker at Huntsville. But he was
not interested in seeing if she was worthy of having her sentence
changed, he went with a hostile attitude more to berate her than
anything. He talked down to her the whole time he was there. It was a
token appearance for political Brownie points. All he asked about were
the murders. He's a compassionless twit. I'm sure there are many
decent people in Texas, but he's not one of them.

And speaking of George W. again, why did he feel it necessary to make
a fool out of Karla's appeal, after her death? He mockingly made her
appear to be begging for her life, which she had the class not to do.
What kind of man would do that? I don't think even Nixon could have
stooped to that. It was totally low class.

Do you have any understanding what power and influence a governor has?
He could have taken steps to change the process. You can change laws,
you know. Or, you can change the ways the Parole Board operates.
Please don't give me the crap that Bush couldn't have done anything.
Let's face it, he took the political and cowardly route of putting it
in the hands of God.
 
On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 02:18:02 GMT, the renowned "R. Steve Walz"
<rstevew@armory.com> wrote:

Paul Burridge wrote:

On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 08:29:34 -0700, Jim Thompson
invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

There should be a one year time limit on appeals... expedited at the
expense of the state... then hang 'em. None of this dawdling for 20
years.

It's certainly not cricket to keep someone hanging around for 20 years
before executing them, I agree (but for different reasons). But you
don't "hang 'em" in *any* state, now, do you? Is it not the case that
the Chair isn't even used these days?
-----------------------
Nope, in Maryland it is a choice for that sniper, Mohammed.
Click to expand...
Hmm.. there was one that wanted a firing squad, for political reasons.

Here's info (?) from one web page:

Hanging
last update: 04/04/98
Prisoner is weighed prior to execution. The "drop" is based on the
prisoners weight,(tables were developed in England during the 1800's)
to deliver 1260 foot-pounds of force to the neck. Essentially, the
prisoners weight in pounds is divided into 1260 to arrive at a drop in
feet. This is to assure almost instant death, a minimum of bruising,
and neither strangulation nor beheading. Properly done, death is by
dislocation of thr third or fourth cervical vertibrae. The familiar
noose coil is placed behind the prisoner's left ear, so as to snap the
neck upon dropping.

States using Hanging: Montana, New Hampshire, Washington

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
 
This is to assure almost instant death, a minimum of bruising,
and neither strangulation nor beheading. Properly done, death is by
dislocation of thr third or fourth cervical vertibrae.
Click to expand...
this is getting pretty gruesome, but to the point.

Once the vertebrae is snapped, how do you know the person isn't
feeling anything? He would be essentially a parapalegic and couldn't
move his limbs, but his brain could be very much alive because feeling
is still there above the break. He could be just hanging there in
incredible agony choking to death. Some of these people are not
pronounced dead till 25 minutes later.

The thing is we don't know, and can't know what kind of suffering is
going on, whether by hanging, electrocution or gas.

My question is why do we have the right to impose that on anyone and
still call ourselves civilized beings? I can't even accept lethal
injection, because a killer is a killer, is a killer..... Legalizing
it doesn't change the facts.
 
On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 03:53:19 GMT, no1@no1.com Gave us:

My question is why do we have the right to impose that on anyone and
still call ourselves civilized beings? I can't even accept lethal
injection, because a killer is a killer, is a killer..... Legalizing
it doesn't change the facts.
Click to expand...

The son of a bitch that shot my aunt and my cousin with a sawed off
shotgun deserves to die, and that by any means, brutal or otherwise.

In fact, a more brutal execution would be an even stronger
deterrent. I could give a shit what the murderous bastard feels.

If THAT were the practice, there would be a lot less asswipes out
there, stepping over that line. The more brutal, the better! The
bastards don't show their victims any mercy. Why the fuck should we
show them any?

As far as non murderous violent offenders... there asses should be
sent off to a new devil's island, never to be allowed back on this
soil again.

If the punishment fit the crime, there would be a lot less criminal
activity.

All rapists. and robbers that brandish a weapon, and all assaults
should go away to this prison island. No fucking day room. No TV.
Only a newspaper to keep up with the real world that they denied
themselves. Hard labor as well.

Fuck all you sympathetic idiots.

When members of your family are murdered, let's see how you *feel*
about it then.
 
"DarkMatter" <DarkMatter@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote in message
news:ie6gsvcqng2nhi2g0pjcss73g5e6ll4hpn@4ax.com...
On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 03:53:19 GMT, no1@no1.com Gave us:

My question is why do we have the right to impose that on anyone and
still call ourselves civilized beings? I can't even accept lethal
injection, because a killer is a killer, is a killer..... Legalizing
it doesn't change the facts.

The son of a bitch that shot my aunt and my cousin with a sawed off
shotgun deserves to die, and that by any means, brutal or otherwise.
Click to expand...
I agree here, but we must be 100% sure we have the right guy.

In fact, a more brutal execution would be an even stronger
deterrent. I could give a shit what the murderous bastard feels.
If THAT were the practice, there would be a lot less asswipes out
there, stepping over that line. The more brutal, the better! The
bastards don't show their victims any mercy. Why the fuck should we
show them any?
As far as non murderous violent offenders... there asses should be
sent off to a new devil's island, never to be allowed back on this
soil again.
If the punishment fit the crime, there would be a lot less criminal
activity.
All rapists. and robbers that brandish a weapon, and all assaults
should go away to this prison island. No fucking day room. No TV.
Only a newspaper to keep up with the real world that they denied
themselves. Hard labor as well.
Click to expand...
Here is where I disagree. What about all those who
have a death wish but don't have the balls to kill
themselves. They will go out and kill someone's
loved ones so they can be put to death. Let's think
rationally a little bit here.

Fuck all you sympathetic idiots.
Click to expand...
I sympathize with you. I figured your bitterness
had a background and now that I am aware, maybe
you and I can get along. I've lost loved ones to
suicide and may lose more from the looks of it.
I'll explain if you need me to do so.

When members of your family are murdered, let's see how you *feel*
about it then.
Click to expand...
Losing loved ones is a difficult thing, I know,
but none of the people in this NG had anything
to do with that. I am sorry for your terrible
loss.

Bill @ GarberStreet Enterprizez };-)
Web Site - http://garberstreet.netfirms.com
Email - willy4SPAM6pa@comXcast.net
Remove - SPAM and X to contact me



---
This email ain't infected, dude!

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.544 / Virus Database: 338 - Release Date: 11/26/03
 
In article <Pq-dneCvUtvAt1WiRVn-hg@comcast.com>,
"Bill Garber" <willy46pa@comcast.net> writes:
"DarkMatter" <DarkMatter@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote in message
news:ie6gsvcqng2nhi2g0pjcss73g5e6ll4hpn@4ax.com...
On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 03:53:19 GMT, no1@no1.com Gave us:

My question is why do we have the right to impose that on anyone and
still call ourselves civilized beings? I can't even accept lethal
injection, because a killer is a killer, is a killer..... Legalizing
it doesn't change the facts.

The son of a bitch that shot my aunt and my cousin with a sawed off
shotgun deserves to die, and that by any means, brutal or otherwise.

I agree here, but we must be 100% sure we have the right guy.

The possibility of getting the WRONG PERSON is the only major
Click to expand...
problem that I have against the death penalty. If there is
any reasonable chance of acquittal based upon NEW information
or a poorly conducted trial, then the punishment MUST default
back to life (no parole) imprisonment. If there is a SLIGHT
probability of a person being innocent, then it is a very
severe wrong to execute someone.

In the case of Carla? (forget her name), she should be a posterchild
for commuting a sentence to life in prison. It STRONGLY appeared
that she wasnt' a fraud. It is very problematical to set a precendent
to 'do the right thing' and allow 'Carla' to try to be a positive
influence after her terrible acts.

All in all -- Bush (as governor of Texas), had little power. On
federal punishments, Bush (as president) has significantly greater
power.

John
 
In article <sn2gsv83qrlsebkaqk0tlhtpeimcmrek64@4ax.com>,
no1@no1.com writes:
In Texas, the governor does not have to the power to overrule
the decision of the Texas Board of Pardons; which ruled
against her. The most he (W) could do is give her a temperary
reprieve.

That would be Mr. Idiot to you.

If you read my post accurately, you will see that I refered to a stay
of execution. The hope was that if Bush had extended her sentence the
30 days, there may have been time to bring some sanity into the
situation.

Hadn't there already been the allowed 30day stay? The governor
Click to expand...
in Texas doesnt' quite have the same power as the president for
the equivalent federal laws.

John
 
On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 00:10:16 -0500, "Bill Garber"
<willy46pa@comcast.net> Gave us:

Here is where I disagree. What about all those who
have a death wish but don't have the balls to kill
themselves. They will go out and kill someone's
loved ones so they can be put to death. Let's think
rationally a little bit here.
Click to expand...
Take your own advice. That is just an outright silly remark.

If a person bent on suicide "can't do it" but "can" to another, then
they "can do it" to themselves. I'll let Jack out to assist those
folks.

Murder is murder, regardless of the "reason given".
 
On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 06:55:47 +0000 (UTC), toor@iquest.net (John S.
Dyson) Gave us:

In article <sn2gsv83qrlsebkaqk0tlhtpeimcmrek64@4ax.com>,
no1@no1.com writes:


In Texas, the governor does not have to the power to overrule
the decision of the Texas Board of Pardons; which ruled
against her. The most he (W) could do is give her a temperary
reprieve.

That would be Mr. Idiot to you.

If you read my post accurately, you will see that I refered to a stay
of execution. The hope was that if Bush had extended her sentence the
30 days, there may have been time to bring some sanity into the
situation.

Hadn't there already been the allowed 30day stay? The governor
in Texas doesnt' quite have the same power as the president for
the equivalent federal laws.
Click to expand...
The president has the power to commute any charge, conviction, or
sentence in any state or possession of the United States.
 
Paul Burridge wrote:
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 11:41:59 -0500, "Mark Jones" <127.0.0.1> wrote:

Perhaps oneday, scientists will be able to clone the deceased, and
at least bring back a portion of what was taken.

What bloody use would that be? The soul has long gone.
Click to expand...
What are you on about. There is no soul . However, what ever it was that
was the person, i.e. the colective effective of billions of nurons, is
indeed all gone.

Zombies are no
good to anyone.
Click to expand...
No such thing as zombies.

Kevin Aylward
salesEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.

http://www.anasoft.co.uk/replicators/index.html

"Understanding" itself requires consciousness,
therefore consciousness cannot be "understood"
without referring to itself for the explanation,
therefore the "hard problem" of consciousness,
is intrinsically unsolvable as it is self referral.
 
Kevin Aylward wrote...
No such thing as zombies.
Click to expand...
Actually, you're wrong; do some research.

Thanks,
- Win

whill_at_picovolt-dot-com
 
I read in sci.electronics.design that Winfield Hill
<Winfield_member@newsguy.com> wrote (in <bqa72c02q0q@drn.newsguy.com>)
about 'Bush Has Thanksgiving Dinner with Troops in Baghdad', on Sat, 29
Nov 2003:
Kevin Aylward wrote...

No such thing as zombies.

Actually, you're wrong; do some research.

I get 549 kilohits by putting 'zombies' into Google. The first few pages
Click to expand...
seem to have nothing to do with voodoo. So I was going to ask you for a
Web reference, but a Google for 'voodoo', while producing over 1.5
megahits, had a relevant URL on the first page:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/voodoo.htm

It says that 'zombies' are living people under the influence of drugs. I
can believe that.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to
http://www.isce.org.uk
PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL!
 
On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 03:53:19 GMT, no1@no1.com wrote:

Once the vertebrae is snapped, how do you know the person isn't
feeling anything? He would be essentially a parapalegic and couldn't
move his limbs, but his brain could be very much alive because feeling
is still there above the break. He could be just hanging there in
incredible agony choking to death. Some of these people are not
pronounced dead till 25 minutes later.
Click to expand...
Good point. If the calculations aren't carried out properly, this is a
real risk. More commonly in the old days before the tables were made
available, the usual problem was insufficient drop/weight so one ended
up with slow strangulation. So relatives or friends would attend on
the day to pull on the person's legs in order to tighten the noose and
ensure a quicker end. Ideally, death takes place by the fracture of
the neck as someone else has said; supposedly the shock from this
kills instantly but more likely just paralyses all muscles from the
neck down, including those of the throrasic cavity, preventing
respiration. The person then dies from lack of oxygen a couple of
minutes after being dropped.
Lethal injection's certainly cleaner - very much cleaner than the way
most killers kill their victims in the first place.

--

"I expect history will be kind to me, since I intend to write it."
- Winston Churchill
 
John Woodgate wrote:
I read in sci.electronics.design that Winfield Hill
Winfield_member@newsguy.com> wrote (in <bqa72c02q0q@drn.newsguy.com>)
about 'Bush Has Thanksgiving Dinner with Troops in Baghdad', on Sat,
29 Nov 2003:
Kevin Aylward wrote...

No such thing as zombies.

Actually, you're wrong; do some research.

I get 549 kilohits by putting 'zombies' into Google. The first few
pages seem to have nothing to do with voodoo. So I was going to ask
you for a Web reference, but a Google for 'voodoo', while producing
over 1.5 megahits, had a relevant URL on the first page:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/voodoo.htm

It says that 'zombies' are living people under the influence of
drugs. I can believe that.
Click to expand...
I was using "zombies" as technically used in the theory of
consciousness. That is, can one make a robot that behaves in *exactly*
the same way a human can, without being conscious. I don't believe in
magic, so my stance on this is that no.

Kevin Aylward
salesEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.

http://www.anasoft.co.uk/replicators/index.html

"Understanding" itself requires consciousness,
therefore consciousness cannot be "understood"
without referring to itself for the explanation,
therefore the "hard problem" of consciousness,
is intrinsically unsolvable as it is self referral.
 
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