Bit rot in micro controllers?...

[David Brown]

On 16/12/2021 21:59, Joerg wrote:

On 12/16/21 12:49 PM, David Brown wrote:
On 16/12/2021 21:41, Rick C wrote:
On Thursday, December 16, 2021 at 4:07:43 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:

Fact is, the electric infrastructure in this here high-tech region of
the US is the pits. 5-10 power outages a year is something I\'ve only
heard of from people that lived in countries like India, Pakistan or
Romania.

Our last outage was ... <drum roll> ... yesterday. All it took was a
little wind. Pathetic.

When a region has high rates of power outages like they do here in
Puerto Rico, I figure it\'s on the users who don\'t make it a priority
to push on the politicians to push on the utilities.  Here it seems
to be a bit cultural as they\'ve put up with it for so long that
everyone feels it is pointless to make the effort.  What\'s your excuse?


You think that politicians have a significant influence on the utility
companies?  You think that users (i.e., the public) can have a
significant influence on politicians outside of election season?  That
would be a nice world, but it\'s a bit unrealistic.


People do but many voters are not very smart. The cause here in CA is
rather clear. A lot of extreme \"green\" requirements were foisted on
utilities by incompetent or corrupt politicians. The result was neglect
of the grid, high prices and frequent power shortages because they had
to close fossil-fuel or nuclear plants.


(I don\'t have a more helpful answer, unfortunately, but I just can\'t see
\"pushing your politicians\" as being a serious way to reduce power
outages.)


Vote in better ones. But most voters just aren\'t smart enough for that.
As had been very obvious when they didn\'t recall our governor who
reportedly had some strange deals going on with a utility (the one with
all the outgages and fires). When reporters questioned him about it in
front of cameras his solution was to walk away. Voters should have
walked him out of office.

Do you understand how representational democracies work? Except in a
few extreme cases, elections are not decided on individual issues - you
vote for the politicians or parties that you think will do the best job
overall. No matter how smart the voters (and let\'s face it, few of them
are particularly smart and there is no test for basic political
knowledge to qualify for voting), you are always balancing issues. You
might disagree entirely with a party in how they stand on electricity
generation and distribution - yet vote for it because of their stance on
taxes, health, education, or whatever. And you don\'t get to choose the
candidates either - if the party that you think should be running the
place has fielded an idiot in your area, tough. (Democracy is, after
all, the worst possible system - apart from all the rest.)

 

[server]

On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 08:41:42 GMT, Jan Panteltje
<pNaOnStPeAlMtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 16 Dec 2021 17:22:23 -0800) it happened
jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
3ipnrg5t34hokt9h7oe3g16esbr5i51s93@4ax.com>:

On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 18:48:01 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaOnStPeAlMtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 16 Dec 2021 10:39:31 -0800 (PST)) it happened Lasse
Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote in
9c43cd33-acee-4e51-9b3b-a76624f3cc93n@googlegroups.com>:

torsdag den 16. december 2021 kl. 06.25.56 UTC+1 skrev Spehro Pefhany:
On Tue, 14 Dec 2021 12:24:44 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com
wrote:


Yes! Or better yet, design an analog controller that works like it used
to be on pellet stoves.
Or you could go the other way and use something like this on a
Raspberry Pi:

https://pypi.org/project/PyScada/

;-) All sorts of fun with Django and React, cascading style sheets
to get the perfect layouts for remote access on different mobile
devices, and some interesting problems with guaranteeing safe shutdown
of the Debian file system.

afaik ext4 is pretty robust against powerloss

a cheap PLC might be a simpler choice

Just a Microchip PIC
Rest is overkill

People should learn asm

Away with all those high level blurb languages.
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html




Ladder logic.

Yes I remember the PLC guys where I worked used that,
never used it myself.

But as with all things, if YOU do not know how to do it,
then throwing any language at it will not work either

LL is not a language; nothing is typed. The model is a diagram of
switches and relay coils, which is very intuitive. There are small
PLCs for roughly $100, with industrial-type inputs and outputs. Not a
bad way to control a simple machine.



--

I yam what I yam - Popeye

 

[Lasse Langwadt Christensen]

fredag den 17. december 2021 kl. 16.18.05 UTC+1 skrev jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com:

On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 08:41:42 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaOnSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 16 Dec 2021 17:22:23 -0800) it happened
jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
3ipnrg5t34hokt9h7...@4ax.com>:

On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 18:48:01 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaOnSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 16 Dec 2021 10:39:31 -0800 (PST)) it happened Lasse
Langwadt Christensen <lang...@fonz.dk> wrote in
9c43cd33-acee-4e51...@googlegroups.com>:

torsdag den 16. december 2021 kl. 06.25.56 UTC+1 skrev Spehro Pefhany:
On Tue, 14 Dec 2021 12:24:44 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com
wrote:


Yes! Or better yet, design an analog controller that works like it used
to be on pellet stoves.
Or you could go the other way and use something like this on a
Raspberry Pi:

https://pypi.org/project/PyScada/

;-) All sorts of fun with Django and React, cascading style sheets
to get the perfect layouts for remote access on different mobile
devices, and some interesting problems with guaranteeing safe shutdown
of the Debian file system.

afaik ext4 is pretty robust against powerloss

a cheap PLC might be a simpler choice

Just a Microchip PIC
Rest is overkill

People should learn asm

Away with all those high level blurb languages.
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html




Ladder logic.

Yes I remember the PLC guys where I worked used that,
never used it myself.

But as with all things, if YOU do not know how to do it,
then throwing any language at it will not work either

LL is not a language; nothing is typed. The model is a diagram of
switches and relay coils, which is very intuitive. There are small
PLCs for roughly $100, with industrial-type inputs and outputs. Not a
bad way to control a simple machine.

you can get cheaper than that, and if you get tired of drawing relays you
can reflash the STM32 with something written in C or what ever you prefer.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/185026997720

 

[Three Jeeps]

On Friday, December 17, 2021 at 10:18:05 AM UTC-5, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 08:41:42 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaOnSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 16 Dec 2021 17:22:23 -0800) it happened
jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
3ipnrg5t34hokt9h7...@4ax.com>:

On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 18:48:01 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaOnSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 16 Dec 2021 10:39:31 -0800 (PST)) it happened Lasse
Langwadt Christensen <lang...@fonz.dk> wrote in
9c43cd33-acee-4e51...@googlegroups.com>:

torsdag den 16. december 2021 kl. 06.25.56 UTC+1 skrev Spehro Pefhany:
On Tue, 14 Dec 2021 12:24:44 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com
wrote:


Yes! Or better yet, design an analog controller that works like it used
to be on pellet stoves.
Or you could go the other way and use something like this on a
Raspberry Pi:

https://pypi.org/project/PyScada/

;-) All sorts of fun with Django and React, cascading style sheets
to get the perfect layouts for remote access on different mobile
devices, and some interesting problems with guaranteeing safe shutdown
of the Debian file system.

afaik ext4 is pretty robust against powerloss

a cheap PLC might be a simpler choice

Just a Microchip PIC
Rest is overkill

People should learn asm

Away with all those high level blurb languages.
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html




Ladder logic.

Yes I remember the PLC guys where I worked used that,
never used it myself.

But as with all things, if YOU do not know how to do it,
then throwing any language at it will not work either

LL is not a language; nothing is typed. The model is a diagram of
switches and relay coils, which is very intuitive. There are small
PLCs for roughly $100, with industrial-type inputs and outputs. Not a
bad way to control a simple machine.


John Hudak

12:56 PM (0 minutes ago)


A notation does not have to be typed to be a programming language. There are strongly typed, weakly typed and untyped languages. Then there is static and dynamic typing. Most (all?) assembly languages are untyped and are considered a programming language.
LL does have semantics and syntax. It is considered a visual (graphical) programming language.
J

 

[Jeroen Belleman]

On 2021-12-17 19:03, Three Jeeps wrote:

On Friday, December 17, 2021 at 10:18:05 AM UTC-5, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 08:41:42 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaOnSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 16 Dec 2021 17:22:23 -0800) it happened
jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
3ipnrg5t34hokt9h7...@4ax.com>:

On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 18:48:01 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaOnSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 16 Dec 2021 10:39:31 -0800 (PST)) it happened Lasse
Langwadt Christensen <lang...@fonz.dk> wrote in
9c43cd33-acee-4e51...@googlegroups.com>:

torsdag den 16. december 2021 kl. 06.25.56 UTC+1 skrev Spehro Pefhany:
On Tue, 14 Dec 2021 12:24:44 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com
wrote:


Yes! Or better yet, design an analog controller that works like it used
to be on pellet stoves.
Or you could go the other way and use something like this on a
Raspberry Pi:

https://pypi.org/project/PyScada/

;-) All sorts of fun with Django and React, cascading style sheets
to get the perfect layouts for remote access on different mobile
devices, and some interesting problems with guaranteeing safe shutdown
of the Debian file system.

afaik ext4 is pretty robust against powerloss

a cheap PLC might be a simpler choice

Just a Microchip PIC
Rest is overkill

People should learn asm

Away with all those high level blurb languages.
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html




Ladder logic.

Yes I remember the PLC guys where I worked used that,
never used it myself.

But as with all things, if YOU do not know how to do it,
then throwing any language at it will not work either

LL is not a language; nothing is typed. The model is a diagram of
switches and relay coils, which is very intuitive. There are small
PLCs for roughly $100, with industrial-type inputs and outputs. Not a
bad way to control a simple machine.


John Hudak

12:56 PM (0 minutes ago)


A notation does not have to be typed to be a programming language. There are strongly typed, weakly typed and untyped languages. Then there is static and dynamic typing. Most (all?) assembly languages are untyped and are considered a programming language.
LL does have semantics and syntax. It is considered a visual (graphical) programming language.
J

I think he meant \"typewritten\". Ladder logic is drawn.

Jeroen Belleman

 

[John Larkin]

On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 10:03:47 -0800 (PST), Three Jeeps
<jjhudak4@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, December 17, 2021 at 10:18:05 AM UTC-5, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 08:41:42 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaOnSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 16 Dec 2021 17:22:23 -0800) it happened
jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
3ipnrg5t34hokt9h7...@4ax.com>:

On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 18:48:01 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaOnSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 16 Dec 2021 10:39:31 -0800 (PST)) it happened Lasse
Langwadt Christensen <lang...@fonz.dk> wrote in
9c43cd33-acee-4e51...@googlegroups.com>:

torsdag den 16. december 2021 kl. 06.25.56 UTC+1 skrev Spehro Pefhany:
On Tue, 14 Dec 2021 12:24:44 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com
wrote:


Yes! Or better yet, design an analog controller that works like it used
to be on pellet stoves.
Or you could go the other way and use something like this on a
Raspberry Pi:

https://pypi.org/project/PyScada/

;-) All sorts of fun with Django and React, cascading style sheets
to get the perfect layouts for remote access on different mobile
devices, and some interesting problems with guaranteeing safe shutdown
of the Debian file system.

afaik ext4 is pretty robust against powerloss

a cheap PLC might be a simpler choice

Just a Microchip PIC
Rest is overkill

People should learn asm

Away with all those high level blurb languages.
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html




Ladder logic.

Yes I remember the PLC guys where I worked used that,
never used it myself.

But as with all things, if YOU do not know how to do it,
then throwing any language at it will not work either

LL is not a language; nothing is typed. The model is a diagram of
switches and relay coils, which is very intuitive. There are small
PLCs for roughly $100, with industrial-type inputs and outputs. Not a
bad way to control a simple machine.


John Hudak

12:56 PM (0 minutes ago)


A notation does not have to be typed to be a programming language. There are strongly typed, weakly typed and untyped languages. Then there is static and dynamic typing. Most (all?) assembly languages are untyped and are considered a programming language.
LL does have semantics and syntax. It is considered a visual (graphical) programming language.
J

It doesn\'t use words or letters. Nothing is typed.

Call that a language if you want. A schematic becomes a language.
Building a house from Legos could be a language. Or making a sandwich.
Assembly languages are certainly typed. MOVE.B addresses bytes, MOVE.L
longwords.

--

If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties.
Francis Bacon

 

[Don Y]

On 12/17/2021 11:03 AM, Three Jeeps wrote:

A notation does not have to be typed to be a programming language. There
are strongly typed, weakly typed and untyped languages. Then there is static
and dynamic typing. Most (all?) assembly languages are untyped and are
considered a programming language. LL does have semantics and syntax. It is
considered a visual (graphical) programming language. J

Ladder Logic is, of course, a programming language as it imposes syntax on the
types of \"statements\" that can be generated. There are *rules* as to how you
can construct rungs -- and how you can expect those rungs to be interpretted.

LL is giving way to more descriptive, text based representations as this
avoids the proprietary ties to vendor-specific graphical implementations.
(editting LL on a PLC terminal is tedious: search and replace? step and
repeat?)

LL constrains the \"programmer\" to using only modules that the manufactured
has made available (in hardware). Want to build a PID controller *without*
a PID controller (module)? Aren\'t there better ways for you to use your time?

Structured Text and Instruction List representations are more expressive
than LL (which is *so* 1970\'s).

Much as VHDL lets us represent schematics in simple ASCII text, these
allow ladder diagrams and functional block diagrams to be represented in
ways that lend themselves to better tools (that can more easily
analyze and optimize the <cough> \"code\")

Amusingly, you can build a PLC with just a few operations (Rockwell
developed one such in the late 70\'s that had, IIRC, less than 10
operations)

Of course, the problem with legacy LL implementations is you are
limited by the \"scan rate\" of the controller (lots of effort went
into making early PLCs minimize this -- including bit slice
implementations)

[And, if the scan rate can vary, then you have other issues that
you need to address in your control theory!]

 

[John Walliker]

On Friday, 17 December 2021 at 20:49:49 UTC, Don Y wrote:

On 12/17/2021 11:03 AM, Three Jeeps wrote:
A notation does not have to be typed to be a programming language. There
are strongly typed, weakly typed and untyped languages. Then there is static
and dynamic typing. Most (all?) assembly languages are untyped and are
considered a programming language. LL does have semantics and syntax. It is
considered a visual (graphical) programming language. J
Ladder Logic is, of course, a programming language as it imposes syntax on the
types of \"statements\" that can be generated. There are *rules* as to how you
can construct rungs -- and how you can expect those rungs to be interpretted.

LL is giving way to more descriptive, text based representations as this
avoids the proprietary ties to vendor-specific graphical implementations.
(editting LL on a PLC terminal is tedious: search and replace? step and
repeat?)

LL constrains the \"programmer\" to using only modules that the manufactured
has made available (in hardware). Want to build a PID controller *without*
a PID controller (module)? Aren\'t there better ways for you to use your time?

Structured Text and Instruction List representations are more expressive
than LL (which is *so* 1970\'s).

Much as VHDL lets us represent schematics in simple ASCII text, these
allow ladder diagrams and functional block diagrams to be represented in
ways that lend themselves to better tools (that can more easily
analyze and optimize the <cough> \"code\")

Amusingly, you can build a PLC with just a few operations (Rockwell
developed one such in the late 70\'s that had, IIRC, less than 10
operations)

Of course, the problem with legacy LL implementations is you are
limited by the \"scan rate\" of the controller (lots of effort went
into making early PLCs minimize this -- including bit slice
implementations)

[And, if the scan rate can vary, then you have other issues that
you need to address in your control theory!]

Just in case anyone wants an example of an untyped language,
look at BCPL.

John

 

[Phil Hobbs]

John Walliker wrote:

On Friday, 17 December 2021 at 20:49:49 UTC, Don Y wrote:
On 12/17/2021 11:03 AM, Three Jeeps wrote:
A notation does not have to be typed to be a programming language. There
are strongly typed, weakly typed and untyped languages. Then there is static
and dynamic typing. Most (all?) assembly languages are untyped and are
considered a programming language. LL does have semantics and syntax. It is
considered a visual (graphical) programming language. J
Ladder Logic is, of course, a programming language as it imposes syntax on the
types of \"statements\" that can be generated. There are *rules* as to how you
can construct rungs -- and how you can expect those rungs to be interpretted.

LL is giving way to more descriptive, text based representations as this
avoids the proprietary ties to vendor-specific graphical implementations.
(editting LL on a PLC terminal is tedious: search and replace? step and
repeat?)

LL constrains the \"programmer\" to using only modules that the manufactured
has made available (in hardware). Want to build a PID controller *without*
a PID controller (module)? Aren\'t there better ways for you to use your time?

Structured Text and Instruction List representations are more expressive
than LL (which is *so* 1970\'s).

Much as VHDL lets us represent schematics in simple ASCII text, these
allow ladder diagrams and functional block diagrams to be represented in
ways that lend themselves to better tools (that can more easily
analyze and optimize the <cough> \"code\")

Amusingly, you can build a PLC with just a few operations (Rockwell
developed one such in the late 70\'s that had, IIRC, less than 10
operations)

Of course, the problem with legacy LL implementations is you are
limited by the \"scan rate\" of the controller (lots of effort went
into making early PLCs minimize this -- including bit slice
implementations)

[And, if the scan rate can vary, then you have other issues that
you need to address in your control theory!]

Just in case anyone wants an example of an untyped language,
look at BCPL.

John

Rexx is strongly typed too. Everything\'s a string.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

 

[John Larkin]

On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 13:49:29 -0700, Don Y
<blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

On 12/17/2021 11:03 AM, Three Jeeps wrote:
A notation does not have to be typed to be a programming language. There
are strongly typed, weakly typed and untyped languages. Then there is static
and dynamic typing. Most (all?) assembly languages are untyped and are
considered a programming language. LL does have semantics and syntax. It is
considered a visual (graphical) programming language. J

Ladder Logic is, of course, a programming language as it imposes syntax on the
types of \"statements\" that can be generated. There are *rules* as to how you
can construct rungs -- and how you can expect those rungs to be interpretted.

LL is giving way to more descriptive, text based representations as this
avoids the proprietary ties to vendor-specific graphical implementations.
(editting LL on a PLC terminal is tedious: search and replace? step and
repeat?)

LL constrains the \"programmer\" to using only modules that the manufactured
has made available (in hardware). Want to build a PID controller *without*
a PID controller (module)? Aren\'t there better ways for you to use your time?

Structured Text and Instruction List representations are more expressive
than LL (which is *so* 1970\'s).

Much as VHDL lets us represent schematics in simple ASCII text, these
allow ladder diagrams and functional block diagrams to be represented in
ways that lend themselves to better tools (that can more easily
analyze and optimize the <cough> \"code\")

Amusingly, you can build a PLC with just a few operations (Rockwell
developed one such in the late 70\'s that had, IIRC, less than 10
operations)

Of course, the problem with legacy LL implementations is you are
limited by the \"scan rate\" of the controller (lots of effort went
into making early PLCs minimize this -- including bit slice
implementations)

[And, if the scan rate can vary, then you have other issues that
you need to address in your control theory!]

A PLC with industrial-level inputs and outputs and LL programming
seems like an ideal way to automate a pellet stove. Or buy some little
uP board, build robust interfaces to sensors and motors, and load up
and learn the compiler suite. Hours or weeks, your option.

--

If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties.
Francis Bacon

 

[Don Y]

On 12/17/2021 2:00 PM, John Walliker wrote:

On Friday, 17 December 2021 at 20:49:49 UTC, Don Y wrote:
On 12/17/2021 11:03 AM, Three Jeeps wrote:
A notation does not have to be typed to be a programming language. There
are strongly typed, weakly typed and untyped languages. Then there is static
and dynamic typing. Most (all?) assembly languages are untyped and are
considered a programming language. LL does have semantics and syntax. It is
considered a visual (graphical) programming language. J
Ladder Logic is, of course, a programming language as it imposes syntax on the
types of \"statements\" that can be generated. There are *rules* as to how you
can construct rungs -- and how you can expect those rungs to be interpretted.

LL is giving way to more descriptive, text based representations as this
avoids the proprietary ties to vendor-specific graphical implementations.
(editting LL on a PLC terminal is tedious: search and replace? step and
repeat?)

LL constrains the \"programmer\" to using only modules that the manufactured
has made available (in hardware). Want to build a PID controller *without*
a PID controller (module)? Aren\'t there better ways for you to use your time?

Structured Text and Instruction List representations are more expressive
than LL (which is *so* 1970\'s).

Much as VHDL lets us represent schematics in simple ASCII text, these
allow ladder diagrams and functional block diagrams to be represented in
ways that lend themselves to better tools (that can more easily
analyze and optimize the <cough> \"code\")

Amusingly, you can build a PLC with just a few operations (Rockwell
developed one such in the late 70\'s that had, IIRC, less than 10
operations)

Of course, the problem with legacy LL implementations is you are
limited by the \"scan rate\" of the controller (lots of effort went
into making early PLCs minimize this -- including bit slice
implementations)

[And, if the scan rate can vary, then you have other issues that
you need to address in your control theory!]

Just in case anyone wants an example of an untyped language,
look at BCPL.

Type-ing can be defined at different levels in the syntax.
One can have untyped variables that assume the type of the
\"object\" assigned. Or, typed variables that coerce the assignment
to the declared type. etc.

Amusingly, \"Types\" are one of the issues many newbies can\'t seem to
wrap their heads around. It all seems \"obvious\" -- because they lack
an appreciation of what \"type-ing\" does for the developer/application,
etc.

Poorly typed languages tend to give you lots of rope with which
to hang yourself! By contrast, strongly typed tend to lead to
gripes from folks who like to play fast-and-loose.

/cf/ icon, lisp, etc. for different ideas of how type-ing can
be applied.

 

[whit3rd]

On Friday, December 17, 2021 at 7:18:05 AM UTC-8, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 08:41:42 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaOnSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

But as with all things, if YOU do not know how to do it,
then throwing any language at it will not work either

LL is not a language; nothing is typed. The model is a diagram of
switches and relay coils, which is very intuitive. There are small
PLCs for roughly $100, with industrial-type inputs and outputs. Not a
bad way to control a simple machine.

Alas, for controlling a stove, or washer, or other appliance, there\'s a
requirement for a suitable display of status, and control settings,
as well as switching the currents. That means a full fledged general purpose
processor, display, etc. , not just a \'controller\'.

My sister\'s clothes washer has a sticky clock motor, the \'official\' parts are
unobtainium, and it\'s near impossible to clean/relube.
If it were solid state, could be just as impossible to replace (bad Intel 8039? Maybe, you can
scavenge one from an old board?).

The (otherwise functioning) motor, pump, tub, hoses, valves, etc. are going to the dump.

 

[John Larkin]

On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 14:17:23 -0800 (PST), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com>
wrote:

On Friday, December 17, 2021 at 7:18:05 AM UTC-8, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 08:41:42 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaOnSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

But as with all things, if YOU do not know how to do it,
then throwing any language at it will not work either

LL is not a language; nothing is typed. The model is a diagram of
switches and relay coils, which is very intuitive. There are small
PLCs for roughly $100, with industrial-type inputs and outputs. Not a
bad way to control a simple machine.

Alas, for controlling a stove, or washer, or other appliance, there\'s a
requirement for a suitable display of status, and control settings,
as well as switching the currents. That means a full fledged general purpose
processor, display, etc. , not just a \'controller\'.

Does a pellet stove need a status display page? Include a web server!

My sister\'s clothes washer has a sticky clock motor, the \'official\' parts are
unobtainium, and it\'s near impossible to clean/relube.
If it were solid state, could be just as impossible to replace (bad Intel 8039? Maybe, you can
scavenge one from an old board?).

The (otherwise functioning) motor, pump, tub, hoses, valves, etc. are going to the dump.

I had to replace the drum timer on our washing machine. It wasn\'t bad
at all, after watching some youtubes.

--

If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties.
Francis Bacon

 

[Don Y]

On 12/17/2021 3:17 PM, whit3rd wrote:

Alas, for controlling a stove, or washer, or other appliance, there\'s a
requirement for a suitable display of status, and control settings,
as well as switching the currents. That means a full fledged general purpose
processor, display, etc. , not just a \'controller\'.

My sister\'s clothes washer has a sticky clock motor, the \'official\' parts are
unobtainium, and it\'s near impossible to clean/relube.

I\'ve also seen bad arcing in the \"points\" lead to an irreparable state.

If it were solid state, could be just as impossible to replace (bad Intel 8039? Maybe, you can
scavenge one from an old board?).

If the binary is accessible, you could likely *emulate* whatever
processor it used in a *cheaper*, more modern, processor.

> The (otherwise functioning) motor, pump, tub, hoses, valves, etc. are going to the dump.
Amusing (dismaying!) to see how much crud ends up there. Sadly,
labor costs to refurbish are too high to be practical. When you lift
a $40K electric wheelchair into the tip and note that it\'s not
the *first* (nor the last)...

*But*, we\'ll know where to scrounge parts when the apocalypse comes!

(e.g., 3-finger Jake\'s toaster ovens!)

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Fri, 17 Dec 2021 13:23:11 -0800) it happened John Larkin
<jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote in
<jmvprgh2knhev7q6g13bgnhp8hmopv06pt@4ax.com>:

A PLC with industrial-level inputs and outputs and LL programming
seems like an ideal way to automate a pellet stove. Or buy some little
uP board, build robust interfaces to sensors and motors, and load up
and learn the compiler suite. Hours or weeks, your option.

All depends, Joerg is a newbie to programming, so PLC board would work perhaps
he still needs to learn LL or whatever it comes with.
For me PIC 18F14K22, some transistors to drive relays or triacs perhaps,
standard asm templates I use,
drawing circuit (on paper) 25 minutes
Coding, 3 hours (4 including coffee / cookies), one afternoon.
soldering on proto board 2 hours (provided I have the relays and other stuff in stock)
Testing.. run the same day.
Power from standsrd 12V wallwart perhaps (safety).
The cheap PLC module needs more volts for supply, so that requires some attention perhaps.

If one bothers to learn asm, life is so much easier.
Look at the number of components at that ebay PLC thing!!!!
For a simple oven controller???? Bit overkill, especially now there are chip shortages...

Cost.... PIC 3$, board 2$, RS232 chip 2$, other semiconductors 5$, resistors, capacitors, ssolder, wallwart 9$
But then again Joerg has no PIC programmer, so he would need to buy one or build one
learn ASM, read data sheets, understand data sheets, do some test to flash a LED
with the first code he writes, read up on some good book on asm programming
so he will be busy for some weeks at least trying and learning...
But is it not the same for programming a PCC with LL, (or in C if you flashed it)?
all in all as time is money at least for some, a new stove or new module would be faster / cheaper / better?
If he learned programming he may be busy for years to come ......
Would it be a useful investment for him?
And maybe ;-) by the time he has learned C, as now we have python snake language popping up again and again,
who knows what crap high level language will be \'in\' by then.
And libraries... and .....
Joerg! UNLESS you want to dedicate years, buy a new module!
But, programming is fun, knowing how to do it is a powerful asset.

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Fri, 17 Dec 2021 14:17:23 -0800 (PST)) it happened whit3rd
<whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote in
<8c470ddb-e351-46ed-b491-de8f50def413n@googlegroups.com>:

On Friday, December 17, 2021 at 7:18:05 AM UTC-8, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 08:41:42 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaOnSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

But as with all things, if YOU do not know how to do it,
then throwing any language at it will not work either

LL is not a language; nothing is typed. The model is a diagram of
switches and relay coils, which is very intuitive. There are small
PLCs for roughly $100, with industrial-type inputs and outputs. Not a
bad way to control a simple machine.

Alas, for controlling a stove, or washer, or other appliance, there\'s a
requirement for a suitable display of status, and control settings,
as well as switching the currents. That means a full fledged general purpose
processor, display, etc. , not just a \'controller\'.

My sister\'s clothes washer has a sticky clock motor, the \'official\' parts are
unobtainium, and it\'s near impossible to clean/relube.
If it were solid state, could be just as impossible to replace (bad Intel 8039? Maybe, you can
scavenge one from an old board?).

The (otherwise functioning) motor, pump, tub, hoses, valves, etc. are going to the dump.

I did that once, replaced the mechanical clock in my old washing machine with
a PIC and the temp sensor with some semiconductor.
It worked, and then bought a new one, the old one to the dump.
The new one (Whirlpool) broke don after 2 weeks, was repaired under guarantee
guy let me have the old module, found what was wrong with it, power regulator chip
ordered 10 from ebay for 10$ or so, and sure enough bit later same error in my Whirlpool dryer.
and then later again in the washer...
Was probably mains spikes in the old house, so far here all is working.

 

[Phil Hobbs]

John Larkin wrote:

On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 10:03:47 -0800 (PST), Three Jeeps
jjhudak4@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, December 17, 2021 at 10:18:05 AM UTC-5, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 08:41:42 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaOnSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 16 Dec 2021 17:22:23 -0800) it happened
jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
3ipnrg5t34hokt9h7...@4ax.com>:

On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 18:48:01 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaOnSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 16 Dec 2021 10:39:31 -0800 (PST)) it happened Lasse
Langwadt Christensen <lang...@fonz.dk> wrote in
9c43cd33-acee-4e51...@googlegroups.com>:

torsdag den 16. december 2021 kl. 06.25.56 UTC+1 skrev Spehro Pefhany:
On Tue, 14 Dec 2021 12:24:44 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com
wrote:


Yes! Or better yet, design an analog controller that works like it used
to be on pellet stoves.
Or you could go the other way and use something like this on a
Raspberry Pi:

https://pypi.org/project/PyScada/

;-) All sorts of fun with Django and React, cascading style sheets
to get the perfect layouts for remote access on different mobile
devices, and some interesting problems with guaranteeing safe shutdown
of the Debian file system.

afaik ext4 is pretty robust against powerloss

a cheap PLC might be a simpler choice

Just a Microchip PIC
Rest is overkill

People should learn asm

Away with all those high level blurb languages.
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html




Ladder logic.

Yes I remember the PLC guys where I worked used that,
never used it myself.

But as with all things, if YOU do not know how to do it,
then throwing any language at it will not work either

LL is not a language; nothing is typed. The model is a diagram of
switches and relay coils, which is very intuitive. There are small
PLCs for roughly $100, with industrial-type inputs and outputs. Not a
bad way to control a simple machine.


John Hudak

12:56 PM (0 minutes ago)


A notation does not have to be typed to be a programming language. There are strongly typed, weakly typed and untyped languages. Then there is static and dynamic typing. Most (all?) assembly languages are untyped and are considered a programming language.
LL does have semantics and syntax. It is considered a visual (graphical) programming language.
J

It doesn\'t use words or letters. Nothing is typed.

Sounds like Labview! <gag, retch>

Call that a language if you want. A schematic becomes a language.
Building a house from Legos could be a language. Or making a sandwich.
Assembly languages are certainly typed. MOVE.B addresses bytes, MOVE.L
longwords.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 18/12/21 16:52, Phil Hobbs wrote:

John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 10:03:47 -0800 (PST), Three Jeeps
jjhudak4@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, December 17, 2021 at 10:18:05 AM UTC-5,
jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 08:41:42 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaOnSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 16 Dec 2021 17:22:23 -0800) it happened
jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
3ipnrg5t34hokt9h7...@4ax.com>:

On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 18:48:01 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaOnSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 16 Dec 2021 10:39:31 -0800 (PST)) it happened Lasse
Langwadt Christensen <lang...@fonz.dk> wrote in
9c43cd33-acee-4e51...@googlegroups.com>:

torsdag den 16. december 2021 kl. 06.25.56 UTC+1 skrev Spehro Pefhany:
On Tue, 14 Dec 2021 12:24:44 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com
wrote:


Yes! Or better yet, design an analog controller that works like it used
to be on pellet stoves.
Or you could go the other way and use something like this on a
Raspberry Pi:

https://pypi.org/project/PyScada/

;-) All sorts of fun with Django and React, cascading style sheets
to get the perfect layouts for remote access on different mobile
devices, and some interesting problems with guaranteeing safe shutdown
of the Debian file system.

afaik ext4 is pretty robust against powerloss

a cheap PLC might be a simpler choice

Just a Microchip PIC
Rest is overkill

People should learn asm

Away with all those high level blurb languages.
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html




Ladder logic.

Yes I remember the PLC guys where I worked used that,
never used it myself.

But as with all things, if YOU do not know how to do it,
then throwing any language at it will not work either

LL is not a language; nothing is typed. The model is a diagram of
switches and relay coils, which is very intuitive. There are small
PLCs for roughly $100, with industrial-type inputs and outputs. Not a
bad way to control a simple machine.


John Hudak

12:56 PM (0 minutes ago)


A notation does not have to be typed to be a programming language.  There are
strongly typed, weakly typed and untyped languages. Then there is static  and
dynamic typing.  Most (all?) assembly languages are untyped and are
considered a programming language.
LL does have semantics and syntax. It is considered a visual (graphical)
programming language.
J

It doesn\'t use words or letters. Nothing is typed.

Sounds like Labview!  <gag, retch

I haven\'t used ladder logic, but when I looked at it it seemed
to be typical of domain specific languages (DSLs): strange but
perfectly adequate for common simple applications. But if you
try to go beyond the undefined and invisible boundary and you\'ll
feel like you\'re falling off a cliff.

I imagine all sorts of kludges have been added to basic ladder
logic to try to extend its range. Such additions usually end up
as incomprehensible cancerous growths.

 

[server]

On Sat, 18 Dec 2021 11:52:45 -0500, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 10:03:47 -0800 (PST), Three Jeeps
jjhudak4@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, December 17, 2021 at 10:18:05 AM UTC-5, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 08:41:42 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaOnSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 16 Dec 2021 17:22:23 -0800) it happened
jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
3ipnrg5t34hokt9h7...@4ax.com>:

On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 18:48:01 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaOnSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 16 Dec 2021 10:39:31 -0800 (PST)) it happened Lasse
Langwadt Christensen <lang...@fonz.dk> wrote in
9c43cd33-acee-4e51...@googlegroups.com>:

torsdag den 16. december 2021 kl. 06.25.56 UTC+1 skrev Spehro Pefhany:
On Tue, 14 Dec 2021 12:24:44 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com
wrote:


Yes! Or better yet, design an analog controller that works like it used
to be on pellet stoves.
Or you could go the other way and use something like this on a
Raspberry Pi:

https://pypi.org/project/PyScada/

;-) All sorts of fun with Django and React, cascading style sheets
to get the perfect layouts for remote access on different mobile
devices, and some interesting problems with guaranteeing safe shutdown
of the Debian file system.

afaik ext4 is pretty robust against powerloss

a cheap PLC might be a simpler choice

Just a Microchip PIC
Rest is overkill

People should learn asm

Away with all those high level blurb languages.
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html




Ladder logic.

Yes I remember the PLC guys where I worked used that,
never used it myself.

But as with all things, if YOU do not know how to do it,
then throwing any language at it will not work either

LL is not a language; nothing is typed. The model is a diagram of
switches and relay coils, which is very intuitive. There are small
PLCs for roughly $100, with industrial-type inputs and outputs. Not a
bad way to control a simple machine.


John Hudak

12:56 PM (0 minutes ago)


A notation does not have to be typed to be a programming language. There are strongly typed, weakly typed and untyped languages. Then there is static and dynamic typing. Most (all?) assembly languages are untyped and are considered a programming language.
LL does have semantics and syntax. It is considered a visual (graphical) programming language.
J

It doesn\'t use words or letters. Nothing is typed.

Sounds like Labview! <gag, retch

Ladder Logic was invented so factory-floor guys, who used real relays
to interlock and control things, could program PLCs to replace the
relays when they died. It\'s pretty simple and makes sense for that
case.

Sounds like a sensible way to fix a pellet stove without making it
into a giant project that has to be done in freezing weather.



--

I yam what I yam - Popeye

 

[server]

On Sat, 18 Dec 2021 17:20:11 +0000, Tom Gardner
<spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

On 18/12/21 16:52, Phil Hobbs wrote:
John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 10:03:47 -0800 (PST), Three Jeeps
jjhudak4@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, December 17, 2021 at 10:18:05 AM UTC-5,
jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 08:41:42 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaOnSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 16 Dec 2021 17:22:23 -0800) it happened
jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
3ipnrg5t34hokt9h7...@4ax.com>:

On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 18:48:01 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaOnSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 16 Dec 2021 10:39:31 -0800 (PST)) it happened Lasse
Langwadt Christensen <lang...@fonz.dk> wrote in
9c43cd33-acee-4e51...@googlegroups.com>:

torsdag den 16. december 2021 kl. 06.25.56 UTC+1 skrev Spehro Pefhany:
On Tue, 14 Dec 2021 12:24:44 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com
wrote:


Yes! Or better yet, design an analog controller that works like it used
to be on pellet stoves.
Or you could go the other way and use something like this on a
Raspberry Pi:

https://pypi.org/project/PyScada/

;-) All sorts of fun with Django and React, cascading style sheets
to get the perfect layouts for remote access on different mobile
devices, and some interesting problems with guaranteeing safe shutdown
of the Debian file system.

afaik ext4 is pretty robust against powerloss

a cheap PLC might be a simpler choice

Just a Microchip PIC
Rest is overkill

People should learn asm

Away with all those high level blurb languages.
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html




Ladder logic.

Yes I remember the PLC guys where I worked used that,
never used it myself.

But as with all things, if YOU do not know how to do it,
then throwing any language at it will not work either

LL is not a language; nothing is typed. The model is a diagram of
switches and relay coils, which is very intuitive. There are small
PLCs for roughly $100, with industrial-type inputs and outputs. Not a
bad way to control a simple machine.


John Hudak

12:56 PM (0 minutes ago)


A notation does not have to be typed to be a programming language.  There are
strongly typed, weakly typed and untyped languages. Then there is static  and
dynamic typing.  Most (all?) assembly languages are untyped and are
considered a programming language.
LL does have semantics and syntax. It is considered a visual (graphical)
programming language.
J

It doesn\'t use words or letters. Nothing is typed.

Sounds like Labview!  <gag, retch

I haven\'t used ladder logic, but when I looked at it it seemed
to be typical of domain specific languages (DSLs): strange but
perfectly adequate for common simple applications. But if you
try to go beyond the undefined and invisible boundary and you\'ll
feel like you\'re falling off a cliff.

I imagine all sorts of kludges have been added to basic ladder
logic to try to extend its range. Such additions usually end up
as incomprehensible cancerous growths.

Time-delay relays are included, but old wired systems had pneumatic or
electronic td relays too. But LL can get hairy if pushed too far, with
analog functions and PID controllers and such. But fine for
bang-banging some solenoids and motors and such. The industrial-level
i/o of a PLC is nice.



--

I yam what I yam - Popeye