Bit rot in micro controllers?...

On Monday, December 20, 2021 at 11:24:05 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sun, 19 Dec 2021 22:14:56 -0800 (PST), Three Jeeps
jjhu...@gmail.com> wrote:
one might be surprised to learn that many steel, aluminum, and refinery plants are controlled by PLCs (level 0/1) controllers. These are large scale applications. They do much more than simple relay bang bang control.
A number of universities have incorporated teaching about ladder logic and PLCs into their curriculum - they see it as a way to enhance the attractiveness of their student products to industry.
J
We visited a classroom at Sierra College, the branch in Truckee. There
is a 2-year course in factory automation that has a 100% rate of job
offers to graduates. The prof used to post here.

Going to school for two years in Truckee, on the stunning campus,
learning real stuff with no student debt, major expense lift tickets,
and then running the enormous Budweiser factory near Sacramento,
doesn\'t sound like a bad life. One of his female grads did that.

Yeah, running a beer factory is the High Life!

--

Rick C.

--+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
 
On 12/18/21 3:07 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 12/18/2021 12:59 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 12/16/21 8:49 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 12/16/2021 3:02 PM, Joerg wrote:
The lights often \"blink off\" for a second or two, here (likely
switching?).
Hence the reason for the 15 UPSs scattered around the house (so
each of
the workstations/appliances that *might* be on has a backup
available).

[UPSs are inexpensive -- $5]

They cost a little more, starting at $50 for a small one. Provided
you want a new one and not a castaway with a shot battery that will
cost almost as much to replace as a new UPS.

That\'s likely true for the small/cheap \"modified sine wave\"
inverters.  Once you step up to true sine wave and higher
power levels, the cost of the batteries becomes a smaller
portion of the total cost.  Thus, giving value to \"surplus\"
units (as ANY unit will need new batteries, eventually).

I have no need for such a fancy and expensive inverter. Except in the
generator, where true-sine was included.

Stepped sine-wave and pure sine-wave cost the same as surplus.
You\'re paying for weight, not \"technology\".

They definitely do not cost the same when new. Case in point, I bought
this for $55 plus tax, free shipping, before Bidenflation:

https://www.walmart.com/ip/CyberPower-Standby-ST625U-625VA-8-Port-Compact-UPS-120V-AC/383808966

Buying a surplus one on Ebay or somewhere requires a new set of
batteries ($$$) plus chances are some electrolytic in there are well
past prime.


Batteries for one cost no more than for the other.  So, silly to
settle for stepped output when you can have sine-wave for free.

Nothing silly about that when buying a new one. Why should one spend
more money where mod-sine clearly suffices?

[...]

The 1500VA UPS on this PC -- plus the microwave link to the ISP -- will
keep the \"connection\" up for just over 3 hours.  As the load is
relatively tiny, I could replace it with a little 250VA unit.  And,
likely live with less than an hour of up-time.

My ISP\'s service goes down the millisecond power goes down and they have
a de facto monopoly here. So no point in investing in a huge UPS. The
modem they lease me has a battery backup option. I inquired when the
installer was here and he said \"What for?\".


We can watch TV, listen to the radio, etc. for similar amounts of
time.  Put a 13W LED/CFL bulb in a lamp and light a room for 5-6 hours!

I can do that with a car battery. But no need because the drill here is
simple, power goes, start generator, and the UPS only has to tide things
over for those 15mins or so. Plus reserves for when the batteries begin
to age.


That leaves things such as the wood stove fans. They consume 20-45W
depending on settings and should never be stopped after a reload. The
UPS carries them over the time it takes to get the generator going.
Modified sine is good enough for that.

When we assembled our bug-out-bags, we looked carefully at what
we had on hand and what we could cheaply acquire (the goal is
not to need such a BoB so why throw money at it?)

We already had a charcoal grill so that was the obvious choice for
preparing hot meals at home (shelter-in-place).  The charcoal can
be stored outdoors (so no space in the home/garage wasted for that).
It wasn\'t \"highly flammable\" so storing it near the house wasn\'t a
concern, either.  To keep it safe from the weather (and creepy crawly
things that might sneak into the bag), we moved it into 5G paint
containers salvaged from one of the routine roof paintings.

But, this isn\'t a practical fuel source if you have to bug out
as it takes a lot of space for the fuel (the charcoal grill can be
\"reduced\" to just saving the actual *grill* that sits inside it).

So, we started with a two burner Coleman (white fuel) camp stove.
But, now we have a second fuel to keep on hand.  And, if we
had to travel with it, we\'d run the risk of it spilling inside
the vehicle (i.e., any fuel still in the stove\'s \"tank\")

And, we needed a white fuel lantern to capitalize on that fuel
source.

As well as having to keep THAT fuel on hand, just in case.

Note that none of these help with anything other than cooking
(and light).

This is where wood fire skills come in very handy. I do not need a
stove or charcoal to prepare a decent meal, just a fire.

Yeah, we didn\'t have propane or charcoal or any other fuels when
camping on frozen lakes.  Starting fires isn\'t hard -- once
you\'ve learned how.

What you want, however, is not to have to \"play boyscout\" in
an outage.  SWMBO isn\'t going to build a wood fire to prepare
a meal if I\'m not available/incapacitated.  But, she can
lift a 5G bucket of charcoal and pour it into the Weber,
soak with starter fluid and strike a match.

And, can just close the bottom vent and replace the cover
to be sure it extinguishes, afterwards.

Repeat as necessary.

Just keep a small bag of charcoal in the garage for that. We have no
problem starting a fire with wood. In the winter it\'s super easy, steal
some coals from the wood stove -> \"instant on\".

When I am away I often prepare things so SWMBO just has to flick a match
into the wadded paper at the bottom.


One of the motivations for a new (bigger) genset is so she
can operate it without having to juggle loads.  Let *everything*
that might need/want to be powered be attached to it at the
same time -- instead of having to manually manage the loads
to avoid tripping the breaker.

We simply do not have to have this much stuff running in an outage.
Fridge, freezer, maybe the evap cooler in summer which consumes about
300W when at full blast. Lights can be on a battery.


And, push the little button to start it, instead of recoil starter.

If it has to be small and tidy a little \"disposable\" hibachi grill of
the sub-$10 class from a supermarket is fine. On vacation trips we
cooked for weeks on these and at the end gave them to other freshly
arrived campers.

We\'re not dealing with \"camping\". ...

In the end it\'s the same thing. Camping skills are very practical when
stuff hits the fan.


... We\'re trying to address survival
in unforeseen conditions -- 9/11, midwest tornados, quakes, etc. come
to mind.  We don\'t think we have any *inherent* risks -- other than
water -- but, I\'m sure those folks didn\'t anticipate the challenges
that they eventually faced!  E.g., what happens when your cell phone
service goes out?  Who do you talk to -- and how?

Simple. I have a ham radio license, the gear for it and know how to get
in contact.


A *small* genset gave us the ability to keep the freezer cold.
Or, the refrigerator.  Or, run the furnace -- or a window
air conditioner.  Assuming we were sheltering in place or
just trying to navigate a prolonged outage (common in
Chicagoland but not here -- though we didn\'t yet know that)

Our 1700/2000W inverter generator can supply both fridge and freezer,
plus some other stuff. Even in Eco-mode which is what I generally use
unless I need it for the operation of a major power tool such as the
electric chain saw.

I\'d not want to risk having to repair an electronic device
\"in need\".  Genset is considerably simpler device.  We can
even run the microwave on it.
?

But, you need to drain the genset\'s tank before bringing it into
the car.  Either run it dry or move fuel back and forth between
car and generator (and hope you\'re not moving crud/moisture *into*
your transportation device\'s tank in the process!)

On modern ones you don\'t. Ours has seal lever which prevents spillage.
Just have to wait half an hour or so after turning it off (and
remember) to slip that lever to shut the tank vent. If you forget to
turn it on the generator will stall after a few minutes.

Gasoline (and diesel) are inherently messy.  That\'s the appeal
of propane -- no lingering smell on hands, equipment, etc.
(if you can smell it, then it\'s *somewhere* that it shouldn\'t be!)

Dual fuel allows gasoline when propane *isn\'t* available.
I.e., it\'s a SECOND choice, not a primary one.

Sure, if you want to spend the extra bucks for that luxury.


Even a small genset is capable of running a single burner on the
electric stovetop.  So, we can continue to use the stove while
at home (for the hassle of running an extension cord -- no need
to bother with a transfer switch).

IMO that\'s a serious waste of the precisous resource gasoline. I\'d
never do that.

No, you\'d venture outside (or, have your SO do so) to start
a fire \"in the weather\".  How much wood do you keep on hand?

We have four cords. That ought to be enough to create major obesity :)


If you have to bug out, how much wood do you carry *with* you?

Nothing. I never had a problem finding and gathering enough in the
wilderness, and rather quickly. The exception would be when it\'s raining
hard, then you have to either gather it before or take some wood along.


On average, we have 10G of gas on hand.  And, can run the microwave if
the item to be heated is amenable to that treatment.  Of course,
you only would use power when the genset was running -- so, you
are just an additional load (much like the furnace, freezer,
frig, ACbrr, etc.)

[Wouldn\'t it be vain to run ACbrrr during an outage?  Or *heat*?
Surely you can put on another garment -- or shed one!?]

Not smart to use the big AC. It\'ll eat up the gas or propane fast.


Cleaning carburetors got to be annoying.  Trivial but
a task that shouldn\'t be necessary.  And, no, I don\'t want to
have to run the genset routinely just to keep emptying the
tank.

No need to empty the tank. We have StaBil in there so the fuel lasts
two years. Well, in PG&E land it never gets a chance to last that long.

I just run it once a month or so to flush new gas through the
carburtor. Works. Mostly I combine that with a chore such as cutting
some collected wood to stove length. A few minutes is all it takes. As
I said, I am a believer in preparedness and for that you\'ve got to
test such stuff at regular intervals.

It\'s one more thing to do.  Instead of other things that are
more interesting.

I don\'t test my smoke/CO detector every month.  But, replace the
battery annually, without fail.  If ALL of the detectors fail
in that period and I don\'t notice, then I guess there\'s a problem
with the manufacturer!  Maybe I should be testing *daily*??
Hourly???

Per manufacturer\'s instructions once a week:

https://support.firstalert.com/s/article/Cleaning-and-Maintenance-for-Smoke-and-Carbon-Monoxide-Alarms

However, I have heard from firemen that once a month can be ok. Your
method is risky. It is not about all of them failing, it is about the
one closest to an event not working.


  ...  (I don\'t like drawing attention to the fact that
we have alternative power sources as folks have no problem
rationalizing that their LACK of preparation ENTITLES them
to the benefit/use of YOUR foresight!)

Weird neighborhood. Nobody thinks that way out here. They only call
upon me in a pinch because they know I am an engineer. Like when
someone can\'t figure out how to open their garage door without
electricity. No kidding.

No one \"calls me\" for repairs.  But, the neighbor(s) who didn\'t think it
necessary to consider how they\'d keep their insulin refrigerated in a
prolonged outage would likely come knocking.  Or, who find themselves
in a 100F home interior (mouses heat up quickly in the absence of
active cooling).

Huh? My office is generally not actively cooled and also receives not
much heating in winter. It has never ventured outside the 55F to 95F
range which is fine with me.


If the outage is local, they\'d get in their vehicle and drive <somewhere>.
\"Lets go to the mall and sit in the food court where it\'s air conditioned
AND we can get a bite to eat\"

Then everybody and their brother does this, resulting in long lines at
the food courts :)


But, if that option doesn\'t exist and all you had to do was walk across
the street to get a warm meal, wouldn\'t you?

No. Unless it was a dire emergency.

[...]


We don\'t *need* 8500W.  But, having that \"headroom\" lets us NOT
worry about the present load on the genset when we decide to
turn on the microwave oven.  Or, run the garbage disposal to
increase the rate at which the sink drains.

So how much does it consume per hour with, say, a 500W load?


We lived with 3500W for a long time.  But, it required
conscious effort to ensure we were always operating
within the capabilities of the genset.  \"We\'ll power the
freezer for an hour.  Then, the refrigerator.  Then,
the furnace.  Then...\"

At 6500W, you don\'t need to do as much of this sort of planning
(management).

At 8500W, none!  And, you move to dual fuel and electric start
if you\'re looking for a new genset.

Our \"lifestyle\" doesn\'t change when we experience an outage.
We\'re not interested in playing boy scout!  :

Our lifestyle even without any emergency isn\'t that large in energy
footprint, not even close.


And none of those places requires power be available to
\"run the pumps\".

Here, some wouldn\'t even be able to operate their cash register
without power.

Propane is typically stored outside in a \"locked cage\".  A
key and *cash* work regardless of the state of the power grid.

I\'ve heard differently, where they could not record a sale without power
and then ... just shut the place down. There simply was nobody there
anymore. Cash or no cash.


You also can beg/borrow tanks from neighbors with \"gas grills\";
it\'s not that exotic a fuel source!

See, now you go begging :)


This will leave us with:
- charcoal (we\'ve not bought any in 30 years and there is
   no cost/risk to keeping what we already have!) for
   shelter-in-place meal prep  (it\'s easier and attracts
   less attention to light a barbeque than fire up the genset!)
   It also helps when I have to burn out stumps (I have two
   in the front yard that need attention, presently)
- propane for plumbing, \"camp stove\" (usable /in situ/ or
   on the road) and \"clean\" genset running both at home and
   on the road
- gasoline for transportation and as a backup for the genset
   (if there is a sudden rush on the propane suppliers *or*
   we\'re traveling and can\'t easily locate a vendor)

Looks like you are planning to equip an army :)

No.  \"Be prepared\".  I\'ve a myriad of specialty tools that I
seldom use.  But, having them on hand leaves me ready when the
need arises.  Whether it\'s a come-along, inside/outside ring
clamp pliers, EZ-outs, etc. a trip into the garage is a lot
easier than hoping to find what you need (when you need it)
on the shelf, *today*.

And here we are back to the cruft ...


We want to reduce the *number* of devices that we have on hand ...

So what is your rationale behind buying a propane stove and then
having to buy yet another item, a propane bottle? Or rather two
because you don\'t want to run out of it when the expensive filet
mignons are 50% cooked.

Why would I want to cook filet mignon on a propane stove when I
have an oven that works in the house?  Even if I was in the process
of cooking them and *needed* to finish them \"indoors\", I\'d just run
a cable to the oven (and discipline myself not to turn on the
stovetop *and* the broiler at the same time -- unless I knew
the furnace/freezer/frig/etc. wouldn\'t be competing for that
power.)

With a massive generator you can do that but you still have to make
sure that one doesn\'t run out of fuel in the middle of the action. I
love simplicity, hence cooking over wood fire. Tastes better, too. My
favorite wood for beef is manzanita.

That\'s why we have gasoline as a backup fuel source.  I can fetch
20 gallons at a time and just \"park it\" by the genset.

In one long outage here the gas stations shut down because they could no
longer pump any gas. Of course, that was no problem at all with my
method of cooking.


Where does \"wood burning\" fit into all this?


Two jobs here:

1. Keeping the beer and the food cold (fridge) -> generator.
2. Cooking meals -> wood fire.
3. Emergency comms (in my case ham radio) -> batteries and generator

Anything else is lower priority. As long as one does not run out of
beer :)

We continue our normal lifestyle during outages.  SWMBO does her
artwork, I do my engineering.  The meals we prepare are largely
the same (though we will try to plan to let things defrost
naturally instead of accelerating that process with the microwave).

We *try* to be more aware of the time spent with the refrigerator
door \"open\" (surveying the contents).  And, won\'t use the garage door
as a way of WALKING in and out of the house (we can use the *real* door
and walk a few extra feet to save cycling the GDO).

I may opt to turn off a couple of workstations (instead of just
pivoting my chair to redirect my attention to whichever has the
tools/resources that I need, now).  And, I\'m likely not going to
be doing anything using power tools that can be deferred.

Well, we do not believe in this kind of large energy footprint. With or
without the grid being up.


to maintain as \"end of life\" is much closer than \"rest of life\"
(and the survivor having to clean up the cruft that has been
accumulated over a lifetime would be an unkind imposition!)

What would we be without all our cruft? :)

Free-er?  Personally, I\'m very anxious to rid myself of as
much excess cruft as possible, as soon as possible.  SWMBO
would curse me to all Eternity if I dropped dead, tomorrow
(and left her with all this stuff to sort out).

Very much the same here :)

Unfortunately, it takes a lot of time and effort (and no small
bit of \"distress\") to shed that stuff.

And, resist the urge to ADD to the collection!  When I brought home
the 5KVA UPS (600 pounds, half-again the size of a dishwasher), the
look that greeted me would have killed a less determined man!  And,
trying to explain why I rescued the power washer... or, the *two*
electric wheelchairs...

Oh man, and here I thought I was bad :)


But, even tools can be \"pruned\".  I just tossed an ARB and
freq counter:  \"When was the last time I used either of those?\"
And, how many \"spare\" \'scope probes do I need to keep?
How many TVs?  Monitors?  PCs?

I should do the same but I built my frequency counter 45 years ago
myself, from scratch, when each of the dozens of TTL chips in there
cost several Dollars. Hard to toss but I know it has to be done.

Years ago, I adopted a policy of ROUTINELY asking myself:
   \"If the house were to catch fire, today, and I awoke from
   a sound sleep, what *one* thing would I rescue?\"
My goal has always been to answer:  \"nothing\".

Real men only need a credit card and a toothbrush. Ok, and at least one
six-pack.


In a practical sense, that\'s where I\'m at, now.  I would
grab the thumb drive that has all of our important documents
but, leave everything else to burn.

As most of my \"value\" lies in \"spinning magnetic domains\",
I can easily preserve that, off-site.  The rest is just
\"stuff\".

I pity folks who have sentimental attachments to things
as that\'s an irrational hold and harder to break.

It also becomes a bit more complex when you have animals, as we do.


Yeah, it\'s really convenient to be able to drag out a spare
computer (or laptop), install an OS and use it to test a
piece of software without having to worry about getting it on
and off a *real* workstation.  Or, swap out a monitor that
goes on the fritz without having to stop what you are working
on at the time.  Or, add another 16 signals to a logic trace
that you\'d not previously thought to be of interest.

But, all of that \"convenience\" comes at a cost -- piles of kit!

Agree.

In my case, I\'m preparing to head off in a different direction
so all this kit will soon be superfluous.  But, that puts extra
pressure in the here-and-now:  why dispose of it NOW if I\'ll be
disposing of it *soon*?  <frown

Going full-time RV? A neighbor built a huge catamaran in their driveway,
full custom. I asked him whether this is going to be his new toy. \"No,
when it\'s done we\'ll sell the house and set sail\". And that\'s what they did.


Instead of just turning the knob to \"high\" and placing the pan
on a burner (or in the oven)?

That requires a big generator to run. I prefer a lower energy footprint.

An electric burner is typ about 200W.  With a duty-cycle modulated
temperature control, you have to be able to handle the full load
even if the average load is less.

That\'s one of the problems. When it heats up a pot it\'ll not be 200W but
2kW. Afterwards it cycles between 0W and 2kW, and rather slowly on most
stoves. The generator must be able to supply these 2kW.

Yesterday I brewed two 5-gallon batches beer. This consumed 2kW for
about 6 hours.


But, if we can heat something in the microwave in 60 seconds,
then the total load is much smaller.

Microwave food ... blech ...

[...]

SWMBO likes wood-fired pizza.  I\'m not going to build her
an over just for that! ...

What, you don\'t love her _that_ much? :)


... I\'d rather mail-order frozen ones
from Chicago...

It doesn\'t compare. The only thing my wife asked while eating a pizza
after I switched to wood fire was \"Why did we never try this before?\".
That was at least five years ago and we have never again baked a pizza
in the kitchen.


Or, 12 hours making 4G of marinara/bolognese/pomadora freschi
to freeze for later use (in pasta dishes, a la parmigiana
meals, pizza, etc.)

But, the actual *eating* is limited by how quickly you can chew.

Well, here we seem to have different philosophies. We prefer to have a
large variety of foods for dinner. Other than pizza (but with
different toppings) nothing ever repeats itself over the course of 1-2
months.

When we prepare foods for ourselves, it is limited to what
we need to sustain ourselves and \"enjoy\".  We want to get
back to whatever we were doing before \"interrupted\" by the
meal.

When we entertain, it\'s a lost day (or more) preparing a wider
variety of foods for our guests to choose from (we tend to serve
buffet style instead of defining what folks will eat).

But, the emphasis, there, is on the social aspect -- not on sustenance.

I regularly meet with colleagues for \"off-sites\" -- hosting at least
once a year (we take turns).  The *last* thing they want to do is sit
around a table!  Instead, we grab <something> and move into the
lab or my office to tinker with stuff.  Later, we\'ll wander outside
and sit around drinking and talking.  But, the traditional repast is
not a part of their visit.  (\"Time\'s a wastin\'!\")

Totally different here. For us meals are often a celebratory thing. Why
should one rush through that as just a basic \"fuel tanker operations\"?
My wife was always a gourmet cook but even I did that when young. Most
others at our university simply went to one of the campus cantinas.
Yuck! I prepared a nice meal just for myself, at my apartment. Every
day. Sometimes also for a dozen others who came over.

One of my grandpas saw it your way. He commented to grandma \"You know,
it would be so practical if we humans had a lid on our bellies, could
open it, throw the food in, close it and then go about our business\".
Grandma almost had a hissy fit.

[...]


Sure, but come with me on the El Dorado Trail and you will very likely
crash. This is what happened to a friend who thought this way, that he
knows how to ride a bicycle. Some rock shifted and he got hurt quite
badly. That\'s the only bikeable route to Placerville and it requires
fairly good and fresh muscle memory.

Why would I be riding my bike, there? ...

It\'s great fun!


... If I want exercise, I walk the
neighborhood (~4mi/day = 1hr) -- assuming I\'m not already engaged in some
other physical activity (e.g., hauling 70 pound buckets of paint up
to the roof, felling trees, etc.).  My /pro bono/ work is often very
physical and exercises other parts of my body that walking doesn\'t
(e.g., upper body lifting stuff over my head into large roll offs)

I gave up my bicycle because it was an impractical mode of transportation
\"in town\".  It\'s tough making left turns across 6-8 lanes of traffic and
*hoping* folks see you!  OTOH, I can walk to the library, post office,
etc. and get a fair bit of exercise with considerably less risk of injury
as I\'m far removed from the roadway (I can make half of the 4.4mi trip to
the library without being in sight of a road!)

I don\'t like it but have no problem crossing several traffic lanes on a
bike. However, I have the ship fully lit even during the day, Cree XM-L
and stuff, bright as a motorcycle headlight. Our area has good bike
paths though, which is something that is a deciding factor where to
locate, for me.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
 
On 12/19/21 2:25 PM, David Brown wrote:
On 18/12/2021 20:07, Joerg wrote:
On 12/17/21 3:38 AM, David Brown wrote:
On 16/12/2021 21:59, Joerg wrote:
On 12/16/21 12:49 PM, David Brown wrote:

[...]

                                                    ...  Except in a
few extreme cases, elections are not decided on individual issues - you
vote for the politicians or parties that you think will do the best job
overall.


Different here. In contrast to many other countries the US has ballot
measures, weher voters actually do decideon individual issues.

That\'s a different matter. I think it is a good thing that you have
these single-issue questions that are sometimes asked alongside a normal
electoral vote. Most Western democracies only have such direct
questions very occasionally - such as the UK\'s \"Brexit\" vote.
(Switzerland is the odd one out, having more referendums than most
countries, and thus being a bit closer to being a direct democracy.)

We usually have half a dozen or more on each major ballot. I strongly
believe this is good.


However, such direct questions are only relevant for the issue being
asked - how people answer to \"should this state legalise marijuana?\" is
completely irrelevant to how the utility companies work in the state.
So unless you have a system where the general public can somehow decide
which issues get these extra ballot questions, you are in the same state.

They do decide that, by gathering the required number of signatures
beforehand.

...  No matter how smart the voters (and let\'s face it, few of them
are particularly smart and there is no test for basic political
knowledge to qualify for voting), you are always balancing issues.  You
might disagree entirely with a party in how they stand on electricity
generation and distribution - yet vote for it because of their stance on
taxes, health, education, or whatever.  And you don\'t get to choose the
candidates either - if the party that you think should be running the
place has fielded an idiot in your area, tough.  (Democracy is, after
all, the worst possible system - apart from all the rest.)


Again, different in the US. You can actually vote for, say, a Republican
president but then for a Democrat representative. You can even vote in
(or out) the local sheriff here. Same for the attorney general. The
party does not decide who that will be, the voters do. I assume you
aren\'t an American and then this might sound unusual but that\'s the way
it is.


I am not an American, but I /do/ understand how that works. And it
really isn\'t that different from other representative democracies except
in the details. (In particular, non-political positions in most
countries are appointed based on normal job qualifications. This means
a sheriff or attorney general is, at least in theory, given the job
based on qualifications and expected ability at the job, rather than
their ability to canvas votes, popularity with the public, or their
personal politics.)

It is a BIG difference. We elect sheriffs and attorneys general. That\'s
how it should be.


We have political governance at three levels here in Norway - local
county, regional, and national. (Obviously we\'re a much smaller country
than the USA, and we are a single nation rather than a federation of
states, which limits comparisons. It might be better to think of
comparing a US state to the country of Norway. And as a kingdom, we
don\'t have any equivalent to a president or a governor.) We can - and
do - vote for different parties at the different levels. We can - and
do - vote based on particular candidates as an alternative to simply
voting for a party.

We can do that as well in the US.


... And we have lots of parties to choose from, rather
than the American three of right-wing, even further right-wing, and
irrelevant (a.k.a. \"independent\"). ...

Sorry, but that is leftist drivel, largely propagated in your media.


... Just like you, especially at the
more local level it is quite normal for people to vote against their
usual party preferences simply because they believe a particular person
is better suited to the job despite their party. (In fact, we even have
a somewhat odd and complicated system in the ballots where, in addition
to voting for a particular party, you can give \"likes\" or \"dislikes\" to
individuals from the same or another party, which influence that
person\'s position in their party lineup.)

Interesting. They do not let us \"unfriend\" any others up or down the
ballot but I also think that\'s not necessary.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
 
On Thursday, December 23, 2021 at 5:39:58 AM UTC+11, Joerg wrote:
On 12/19/21 2:25 PM, David Brown wrote:
On 18/12/2021 20:07, Joerg wrote:
On 12/17/21 3:38 AM, David Brown wrote:
On 16/12/2021 21:59, Joerg wrote:
On 12/16/21 12:49 PM, David Brown wrote:

<snip>

I am not an American, but I /do/ understand how that works. And it
really isn\'t that different from other representative democracies except
in the details. (In particular, non-political positions in most
countries are appointed based on normal job qualifications. This means
a sheriff or attorney general is, at least in theory, given the job
based on qualifications and expected ability at the job, rather than
their ability to canvas votes, popularity with the public, or their
personal politics.)

It is a BIG difference. We elect sheriffs and attorneys general. That\'s
how it should be.

Americans do seem to think so. Nobody else seems to share that idea. The US does seem to have the world\'s first written constitution - it essentially formalised a lot of stuff that other people were already doing, but included a certain amount of innovation, so which worked out and got copied into other people\'s written constitutions. Electing sherriffs and attorney generals doesn\'t seem to have been a successful innovation, and it doesn\'t seem to have been widely copied.

<snip>

... And we have lots of parties to choose from, rather
than the American three of right-wing, even further right-wing, and
irrelevant (a.k.a. \"independent\"). ...

Sorry, but that is leftist drivel, largely propagated in your media.

Actually, it is middle-of-the road orthodoxy, and as such it does show up in non-American-owned media. Rupert Murdoch is an American these days - he was Australian. but being a right-wing media magnate in the US was much more profitable, so he did become a US citizen. Australia was perfectly happy about that. If he\'d sold the right-wing newspapers he owns in Australia we\'d probably have been even happier.

<snip>

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
 
On 23/12/2021 02:25, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Thursday, December 23, 2021 at 5:39:58 AM UTC+11, Joerg wrote:
On 12/19/21 2:25 PM, David Brown wrote:
On 18/12/2021 20:07, Joerg wrote:
On 12/17/21 3:38 AM, David Brown wrote:
On 16/12/2021 21:59, Joerg wrote:
On 12/16/21 12:49 PM, David Brown wrote:

snip

I am not an American, but I /do/ understand how that works. And
it really isn\'t that different from other representative
democracies except in the details. (In particular, non-political
positions in most countries are appointed based on normal job
qualifications. This means a sheriff or attorney general is, at
least in theory, given the job based on qualifications and
expected ability at the job, rather than their ability to canvas
votes, popularity with the public, or their personal politics.)

It is a BIG difference. We elect sheriffs and attorneys general.
That\'s how it should be.

Americans do seem to think so. Nobody else seems to share that idea.
The US does seem to have the world\'s first written constitution - it
essentially formalised a lot of stuff that other people were already
doing, but included a certain amount of innovation, so which worked
out and got copied into other people\'s written constitutions.
Electing sherriffs and attorney generals doesn\'t seem to have been a
successful innovation, and it doesn\'t seem to have been widely
copied.

The USA does not have \"the world\'s first written constitution\". It has
the oldest codified (that is, written in a single document) constitution
that is still in force. That is a wildly different claim to fame.
There have been written sets of fundamental law since Sumerian and
Babylonian times. And perhaps the most significant step towards modern
constitutions was the Magna Carta in 1215 in England. Sweden had the
first complete modern-style written constitution in the seventeenth
century, but it has since been superseded.

Certainly the US constitution was a major achievement, and certainly it
has been very influential for other later constitutions. (As you say,
other countries copied some of the good bits - but not all parts would
be appropriate to all countries.)

But I think what stands out most about the US constitution is how many
Americans view it. Many see it as a kind of holy or religious document,
unfailing and perfect, and equally applicable now as it was 200+ years
ago. In most countries, the general populace neither knows nor cares
about the details of their constitution - they are just the more
fundamental laws of their country that require special handling in
parliament to change (two thirds majority, and/or two independent
parliamentary sessions).
 
On Thursday, December 23, 2021 at 10:04:26 PM UTC+11, David Brown wrote:
On 23/12/2021 02:25, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Thursday, December 23, 2021 at 5:39:58 AM UTC+11, Joerg wrote:
On 12/19/21 2:25 PM, David Brown wrote:
On 18/12/2021 20:07, Joerg wrote:
On 12/17/21 3:38 AM, David Brown wrote:
On 16/12/2021 21:59, Joerg wrote:
On 12/16/21 12:49 PM, David Brown wrote:

snip

I am not an American, but I /do/ understand how that works. And
it really isn\'t that different from other representative
democracies except in the details. (In particular, non-political
positions in most countries are appointed based on normal job
qualifications. This means a sheriff or attorney general is, at
least in theory, given the job based on qualifications and
expected ability at the job, rather than their ability to canvas
votes, popularity with the public, or their personal politics.)

It is a BIG difference. We elect sheriffs and attorneys general.
That\'s how it should be.

Americans do seem to think so. Nobody else seems to share that idea.
The US does seem to have the world\'s first written constitution - it
essentially formalised a lot of stuff that other people were already
doing, but included a certain amount of innovation, so which worked
out and got copied into other people\'s written constitutions.
Electing sherriffs and attorney generals doesn\'t seem to have been a
successful innovation, and it doesn\'t seem to have been widely
copied.

The USA does not have \"the world\'s first written constitution\". It has
the oldest codified (that is, written in a single document) constitution
that is still in force. That is a wildly different claim to fame.
There have been written sets of fundamental law since Sumerian and
Babylonian times.

They aren\'t \"constitutions\". They were put together by the elite, and prescribe how the rest of the population is expected to behave.

> And perhaps the most significant step towards modern constitutions was the Magna Carta in 1215 in England.

It was a deal between the feudal lords and the monarchy. Constitutional lawyers found that they could interpret it in ways that they liked.

\"Research by Victorian historians showed that the original 1215 charter had concerned the medieval relationship between the monarch and the barons, rather than the rights of ordinary people, but the charter remained a powerful, iconic document, even after almost all of its content was repealed from the statute books in the 19th and 20th centuries. \"

> Sweden had the first complete modern-style written constitution in the seventeenth century, but it has since been superseded.

\"The first Riksdag Act was developed in1617. It required that the king consult the estates before declaring war or forming
alliances. In 1660 a protocol calling for the routine meeting of parliament was adopted which gave parliament a more independent standing. In 1720/3,
constitutional reforms lead to a half century of parliamentary domination of policy making, from 1719-1772, the so-called Age of Freedom. It was during
this time the first Freedom of the Press Act was adopted (in 1766).\"

It was subsequently set aside when later kings decided that they didn\'t want to pay attention to it, so looks more like negotiable rules than any kind of fixed constitution.

Certainly the US constitution was a major achievement, and certainly it
has been very influential for other later constitutions. (As you say,
other countries copied some of the good bits - but not all parts would
be appropriate to all countries.)

But I think what stands out most about the US constitution is how many
Americans view it. Many see it as a kind of holy or religious document,
unfailing and perfect, and equally applicable now as it was 200+ years
ago.

We do see this here from time to time. American education does seem to include a certain amount of brain-washing on the subject - in the same sort of way that British secondary education misrepresents Magna Carta.

> In most countries, the general populace neither knows nor cares about the details of their constitution - they are just the more fundamental laws of their country that require special handling in parliament to change (two thirds majority, and/or two independent parliamentary sessions).

In Australia national referendums are required - and we have compulsory voting ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendums_in_Australia

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
 
On 23/12/2021 13:42, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Thursday, December 23, 2021 at 10:04:26 PM UTC+11, David Brown
wrote:
On 23/12/2021 02:25, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Thursday, December 23, 2021 at 5:39:58 AM UTC+11, Joerg wrote:

On 12/19/21 2:25 PM, David Brown wrote:
On 18/12/2021 20:07, Joerg wrote:
On 12/17/21 3:38 AM, David Brown wrote:
On 16/12/2021 21:59, Joerg wrote:
On 12/16/21 12:49 PM, David Brown wrote:

snip

I am not an American, but I /do/ understand how that works.
And it really isn\'t that different from other representative
democracies except in the details. (In particular,
non-political positions in most countries are appointed based
on normal job qualifications. This means a sheriff or
attorney general is, at least in theory, given the job based
on qualifications and expected ability at the job, rather
than their ability to canvas votes, popularity with the
public, or their personal politics.)

It is a BIG difference. We elect sheriffs and attorneys
general. That\'s how it should be.

Americans do seem to think so. Nobody else seems to share that
idea. The US does seem to have the world\'s first written
constitution - it essentially formalised a lot of stuff that
other people were already doing, but included a certain amount of
innovation, so which worked out and got copied into other
people\'s written constitutions. Electing sherriffs and attorney
generals doesn\'t seem to have been a successful innovation, and
it doesn\'t seem to have been widely copied.

The USA does not have \"the world\'s first written constitution\". It
has the oldest codified (that is, written in a single document)
constitution that is still in force. That is a wildly different
claim to fame. There have been written sets of fundamental law
since Sumerian and Babylonian times.

They aren\'t \"constitutions\". They were put together by the elite, and
prescribe how the rest of the population is expected to behave.

The US constitution was also put together by the elites, determining how
people should behave (and how they could vote to keep those same elites
in power). Modern constitutions (counting the US constitution as
modern) definitely contain far more about the rights of people and
limitations of the powers of the elites - that was quite limited in
early documents.

And perhaps the most significant step towards modern constitutions
was the Magna Carta in 1215 in England.

It was a deal between the feudal lords and the monarchy.
Constitutional lawyers found that they could interpret it in ways
that they liked.

\"Research by Victorian historians showed that the original 1215
charter had concerned the medieval relationship between the monarch
and the barons, rather than the rights of ordinary people, but the
charter remained a powerful, iconic document, even after almost all
of its content was repealed from the statute books in the 19th and
20th centuries. \"

As I said - it was a significant step towards modern constitutions.

Sweden had the first complete modern-style written constitution in
the seventeenth century, but it has since been superseded.

\"The first Riksdag Act was developed in1617. It required that the
king consult the estates before declaring war or forming alliances.
In 1660 a protocol calling for the routine meeting of parliament was
adopted which gave parliament a more independent standing. In
1720/3, constitutional reforms lead to a half century of
parliamentary domination of policy making, from 1719-1772, the
so-called Age of Freedom. It was during this time the first Freedom
of the Press Act was adopted (in 1766).\"

It was subsequently set aside when later kings decided that they
didn\'t want to pay attention to it, so looks more like negotiable
rules than any kind of fixed constitution.

Perhaps you are imagining that a \"constitution\" is something fixed or
long-lasting. Or maybe you are mixing it up with magic spells that
remain in force despite major upheavals to country leaderships. The
average lifespan of a constitution (according to Wikipedia) is 17 years.
The US constitution is unusual in how long it has lasted, if you don\'t
count the amendments.

Certainly the US constitution was a major achievement, and
certainly it has been very influential for other later
constitutions. (As you say, other countries copied some of the good
bits - but not all parts would be appropriate to all countries.)

But I think what stands out most about the US constitution is how
many Americans view it. Many see it as a kind of holy or religious
document, unfailing and perfect, and equally applicable now as it
was 200+ years ago.

We do see this here from time to time. American education does seem
to include a certain amount of brain-washing on the subject - in the
same sort of way that British secondary education misrepresents Magna
Carta.

I don\'t know that anyone in the UK considers the Magna Carta to be
anything other than what it is - a document signed by the king accepting
that he has limited powers and certain responsibilities towards the next
layer down in the feudal power system of the time. As an acceptance
that the regent does not have absolute and unlimited power, it was a
vital step towards a more democratic and law-based system of governance,
but only the first step.

Taking figures out of the air (in case anyone asks for references), 90%
of Americans can tell you that their constitution is vital to their
country and society, and that every American should swear allegiance to
it - though they will be unable to tell you about anything in it, except
perhaps that it gives you the right to carry a gun. 5% will know a lot
about it, and 5% will know nothing at all. Corresponding figures in the
UK will be 90% who have never heard of the Magna Carta, 5% who have
heard of it as something they learned about at school but forgot, and 5%
will know more.

There is brain-washing about the US constitution in the USA - no doubts
there. But no brain-washing about the Magna Carta in the UK. I have no
idea where you pulled that idea from.

In most countries, the general populace neither knows nor cares
about the details of their constitution - they are just the more
fundamental laws of their country that require special handling in
parliament to change (two thirds majority, and/or two independent
parliamentary sessions).

In Australia national referendums are required - and we have
compulsory voting ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendums_in_Australia
 
On 23/12/21 14:20, David Brown wrote:
I don\'t know that anyone in the UK considers the Magna Carta to be
anything other than what it is - a document signed by the king accepting
that he has limited powers and certain responsibilities towards the next
layer down in the feudal power system of the time.

Anyone?

Rabid antivaxxers and covid deniers have stoked their echo
chambers into the obvious antisocial beliefs and \"noosworthy\"
actions.

The courts give them short shrift.
 
On 12/22/2021 11:32 AM, Joerg wrote:
[UPSs are inexpensive -- $5]

They cost a little more, starting at $50 for a small one. Provided you
want a new one and not a castaway with a shot battery that will cost
almost as much to replace as a new UPS.

That\'s likely true for the small/cheap \"modified sine wave\"
inverters. Once you step up to true sine wave and higher
power levels, the cost of the batteries becomes a smaller
portion of the total cost. Thus, giving value to \"surplus\"
units (as ANY unit will need new batteries, eventually).

I have no need for such a fancy and expensive inverter. Except in the
generator, where true-sine was included.

Stepped sine-wave and pure sine-wave cost the same as surplus.
You\'re paying for weight, not \"technology\".

They definitely do not cost the same when new. Case in point, I bought this for
$55 plus tax, free shipping, before Bidenflation:

https://www.walmart.com/ip/CyberPower-Standby-ST625U-625VA-8-Port-Compact-UPS-120V-AC/383808966

I bought *two* of these and two of the expansion battery boxes (below) for
a total of $7 at an auction. $7 is the minimum bid (i.e., no one else
WANTED them!)

<https://www.amazon.com/APC-SURTA2200RMXL2U-2200VA-Smart-UPS/dp/B003MA3W4G>

<https://www.amazon.com/APC-SURTA48RMXLBP2U-UPS-Battery/dp/B001BBMXFC>

They were still in their original shipping boxes. All of the batteries
still showing charge. Someone simply decided they \"didn\'t want them\"
after having made the purchase and accepted delivery.

This is fairly common at large companies where it\'s not the decision makers\'
money that\'s involved.

I like that form factor as they make good use of space beneath my
workstations -- tall and slender. Most of mine are smaller (less VA):

<https://www.amazon.com/APC-1500VA-Smart-UPS-Uninterruptible-SRT1500XLA/dp/B07214X49M>

The issue with these is making sure the *feet* are available in
the auction lot before bidding.

Most UPSs that I\'ve rescued were three years old. Likely the batteries
started to fail, the IT guy got a price for replacements FROM THE UPS
VENDOR and the bean counters said \"just toss the thing\" -- rather than
processing the paperwork for the reorder, handling the delivery,
installing the replacements and disposing of the spent batteries
(i.e., beyond the inflated purchase price, there are high internal
costs to actually making the replacement)

The economies are different for smaller firms. E.g., I\'ll save the
bad batteries until I have enough of them to justify a trip to the
recycler (about 20c/pound).

Buying a surplus one on Ebay or somewhere requires a new set of batteries ($$$)
plus chances are some electrolytic in there are well past prime.

You wouldn\'t want to pay for shipping. And, if a UPS can\'t be
operable after 3 years, then why would you purchase ANY one?

Batteries for one cost no more than for the other. So, silly to
settle for stepped output when you can have sine-wave for free.

Nothing silly about that when buying a new one. Why should one spend more money
where mod-sine clearly suffices?

You\'re making the assumption that it \"suffices\". Clearly there is a
need/market for sine-wave output devices, you just don\'t happen to be
part of that market.

Each of my UPSs has a network interface so I can (programatically) monitor
load and log that (without writing any code) to another 24/7/365 box.
That feature isn\'t available on low-end units.

The 1500VA UPS on this PC -- plus the microwave link to the ISP -- will
keep the \"connection\" up for just over 3 hours. As the load is
relatively tiny, I could replace it with a little 250VA unit. And,
likely live with less than an hour of up-time.


My ISP\'s service goes down the millisecond power goes down and they have a de
facto monopoly here. So no point in investing in a huge UPS. The modem they
lease me has a battery backup option. I inquired when the installer was here
and he said \"What for?\".

My ISP is in a different part of town. I have no idea when he experiences
power outages. But, we have rarely been without a connection (and there\'s
no real \"idle\" time when an outage wouldn\'t be visible to *one* of us).

We can watch TV, listen to the radio, etc. for similar amounts of
time. Put a 13W LED/CFL bulb in a lamp and light a room for 5-6 hours!

I can do that with a car battery. But no need because the drill here is simple,
power goes, start generator, and the UPS only has to tide things over for those
15mins or so. Plus reserves for when the batteries begin to age.

We skip the *need* for the genset as we have enough UPS capacity to
\"carry\" the convenience loads. And, can likely live without the
bigger loads (furnace, frig, freezer, microwave, etc.) for the
short time that we\'ll be without power.

We\'ve had outages in the wee hours of the morning. The repair crew was
outside promptly, isolating the defective cable segment and rerouting
power from the \"other end\". SWMBO would wonder why her bedside clock
was flashing 12:00 when she awoke: \"Did we have a power failure last night?\"

The actual faulted cable might not be replaced for months (which leaves
us vulnerable to a second fault). But, that\'s a bean-counter exercise
in cost vs. expectations. (They just replaced another segment down
the block a few weeks ago)
 
On 12/23/21 8:36 AM, Don Y wrote:
On 12/22/2021 11:32 AM, Joerg wrote:
[UPSs are inexpensive -- $5]

They cost a little more, starting at $50 for a small one. Provided
you want a new one and not a castaway with a shot battery that
will cost almost as much to replace as a new UPS.

That\'s likely true for the small/cheap \"modified sine wave\"
inverters.  Once you step up to true sine wave and higher
power levels, the cost of the batteries becomes a smaller
portion of the total cost.  Thus, giving value to \"surplus\"
units (as ANY unit will need new batteries, eventually).

I have no need for such a fancy and expensive inverter. Except in
the generator, where true-sine was included.

Stepped sine-wave and pure sine-wave cost the same as surplus.
You\'re paying for weight, not \"technology\".

They definitely do not cost the same when new. Case in point, I bought
this for $55 plus tax, free shipping, before Bidenflation:

https://www.walmart.com/ip/CyberPower-Standby-ST625U-625VA-8-Port-Compact-UPS-120V-AC/383808966


I bought *two* of these and two of the expansion battery boxes (below) for
a total of $7 at an auction.  $7 is the minimum bid (i.e., no one else
WANTED them!)

https://www.amazon.com/APC-SURTA2200RMXL2U-2200VA-Smart-UPS/dp/B003MA3W4G

https://www.amazon.com/APC-SURTA48RMXLBP2U-UPS-Battery/dp/B001BBMXFC

They were still in their original shipping boxes.  All of the batteries
still showing charge.  Someone simply decided they \"didn\'t want them\"
after having made the purchase and accepted delivery.

This is fairly common at large companies where it\'s not the decision
makers\'
money that\'s involved.

I like that form factor as they make good use of space beneath my
workstations -- tall and slender.  Most of mine are smaller (less VA):

https://www.amazon.com/APC-1500VA-Smart-UPS-Uninterruptible-SRT1500XLA/dp/B07214X49M

I was never lucky to find any UPS like that. On Ebay they quickly get
bid up to levels that are beyond what their remaining value is. So I
just bought a new one, for less that those EBay bids, and no faffing
around with batteries and stuff.

Unpack, plug in, turn on, test, move on with life. That\'s my favorite
UPS implementation method.


The issue with these is making sure the *feet* are available in
the auction lot before bidding.

Feet? That would be the least of my worries. Four chunks of Delrin do
the trick, or rubber for smaller units.


Most UPSs that I\'ve rescued were three years old.  Likely the batteries
started to fail, the IT guy got a price for replacements FROM THE UPS
VENDOR and the bean counters said \"just toss the thing\" -- rather than
processing the paperwork for the reorder, handling the delivery,
installing the replacements and disposing of the spent batteries
(i.e., beyond the inflated purchase price, there are high internal
costs to actually making the replacement)

The economies are different for smaller firms.  E.g., I\'ll save the
bad batteries until I have enough of them to justify a trip to the
recycler (about 20c/pound).

Sure, but you have to have the connections to get first dibs.


Buying a surplus one on Ebay or somewhere requires a new set of
batteries ($$$) plus chances are some electrolytic in there are well
past prime.

You wouldn\'t want to pay for shipping.  And, if a UPS can\'t be
operable after 3 years, then why would you purchase ANY one?

The ones on EBay auctions were a lot older than 3 years.


Batteries for one cost no more than for the other.  So, silly to
settle for stepped output when you can have sine-wave for free.

Nothing silly about that when buying a new one. Why should one spend
more money where mod-sine clearly suffices?

You\'re making the assumption that it \"suffices\".

No, I _know_ it suffices for me. As in \"I tested it\".


... Clearly there is a
need/market for sine-wave output devices, you just don\'t happen to be
part of that market.

Exactly. The loads I need to tide over until the generator is running
are happy with modified sine.


Each of my UPSs has a network interface so I can (programatically) monitor
load and log that (without writing any code) to another 24/7/365 box.
That feature isn\'t available on low-end units.

And I don\'t need it.


The 1500VA UPS on this PC -- plus the microwave link to the ISP -- will
keep the \"connection\" up for just over 3 hours.  As the load is
relatively tiny, I could replace it with a little 250VA unit.  And,
likely live with less than an hour of up-time.


My ISP\'s service goes down the millisecond power goes down and they
have a de facto monopoly here. So no point in investing in a huge UPS.
The modem they lease me has a battery backup option. I inquired when
the installer was here and he said \"What for?\".

My ISP is in a different part of town.  I have no idea when he experiences
power outages.  But, we have rarely been without a connection (and there\'s
no real \"idle\" time when an outage wouldn\'t be visible to *one* of us).

Ours is a huge company, Comcast. Only game left in town. They know it so
the prices are accordingly, and no outage backup :-(


We can watch TV, listen to the radio, etc. for similar amounts of
time.  Put a 13W LED/CFL bulb in a lamp and light a room for 5-6 hours!

I can do that with a car battery. But no need because the drill here
is simple, power goes, start generator, and the UPS only has to tide
things over for those 15mins or so. Plus reserves for when the
batteries begin to age.

We skip the *need* for the genset as we have enough UPS capacity to
\"carry\" the convenience loads.  And, can likely live without the
bigger loads (furnace, frig, freezer, microwave, etc.) for the
short time that we\'ll be without power.

We\'ve had outages in the wee hours of the morning.  The repair crew was
outside promptly, isolating the defective cable segment and rerouting
power from the \"other end\".  SWMBO would wonder why her bedside clock
was flashing 12:00 when she awoke:  \"Did we have a power failure last
night?\"

What, you did not equip her with a clock that has battery backup?


The actual faulted cable might not be replaced for months (which leaves
us vulnerable to a second fault).  But, that\'s a bean-counter exercise
in cost vs. expectations.  (They just replaced another segment down
the block a few weeks ago)

Here it\'s PG&E so the grid is iffy in general. Ours is below ground but
that doesn\'t help because much of the town\'s isn\'t. Unfortunately the
transfer station is across that part of town, so ...

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
 
Joerg wrote:
On 12/23/21 8:36 AM, Don Y wrote:
On 12/22/2021 11:32 AM, Joerg wrote:
[UPSs are inexpensive -- $5]

They cost a little more, starting at $50 for a small one.
Provided you want a new one and not a castaway with a shot
battery that will cost almost as much to replace as a new UPS.

That\'s likely true for the small/cheap \"modified sine wave\"
inverters.  Once you step up to true sine wave and higher
power levels, the cost of the batteries becomes a smaller
portion of the total cost.  Thus, giving value to \"surplus\"
units (as ANY unit will need new batteries, eventually).

I have no need for such a fancy and expensive inverter. Except in
the generator, where true-sine was included.

Stepped sine-wave and pure sine-wave cost the same as surplus.
You\'re paying for weight, not \"technology\".

They definitely do not cost the same when new. Case in point, I
bought this for $55 plus tax, free shipping, before Bidenflation:

https://www.walmart.com/ip/CyberPower-Standby-ST625U-625VA-8-Port-Compact-UPS-120V-AC/383808966



I bought *two* of these and two of the expansion battery boxes (below)
for
a total of $7 at an auction.  $7 is the minimum bid (i.e., no one else
WANTED them!)

https://www.amazon.com/APC-SURTA2200RMXL2U-2200VA-Smart-UPS/dp/B003MA3W4G


https://www.amazon.com/APC-SURTA48RMXLBP2U-UPS-Battery/dp/B001BBMXFC

They were still in their original shipping boxes.  All of the batteries
still showing charge.  Someone simply decided they \"didn\'t want them\"
after having made the purchase and accepted delivery.

This is fairly common at large companies where it\'s not the decision
makers\'
money that\'s involved.

I like that form factor as they make good use of space beneath my
workstations -- tall and slender.  Most of mine are smaller (less VA):

https://www.amazon.com/APC-1500VA-Smart-UPS-Uninterruptible-SRT1500XLA/dp/B07214X49M



I was never lucky to find any UPS like that. On Ebay they quickly get
bid up to levels that are beyond what their remaining value is. So I
just bought a new one, for less that those EBay bids, and no faffing
around with batteries and stuff.

Unpack, plug in, turn on, test, move on with life. That\'s my favorite
UPS implementation method.

The IBM ThinkCenter ones are rebadged SmartUPSes that go for much
cheaper than the APC-branded ones.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs
--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com
 
On 12/25/21 2:00 PM, Phil Hobbs wrote:
Joerg wrote:
On 12/23/21 8:36 AM, Don Y wrote:
On 12/22/2021 11:32 AM, Joerg wrote:
[UPSs are inexpensive -- $5]

They cost a little more, starting at $50 for a small one.
Provided you want a new one and not a castaway with a shot
battery that will cost almost as much to replace as a new UPS.

That\'s likely true for the small/cheap \"modified sine wave\"
inverters.  Once you step up to true sine wave and higher
power levels, the cost of the batteries becomes a smaller
portion of the total cost.  Thus, giving value to \"surplus\"
units (as ANY unit will need new batteries, eventually).

I have no need for such a fancy and expensive inverter. Except in
the generator, where true-sine was included.

Stepped sine-wave and pure sine-wave cost the same as surplus.
You\'re paying for weight, not \"technology\".

They definitely do not cost the same when new. Case in point, I
bought this for $55 plus tax, free shipping, before Bidenflation:

https://www.walmart.com/ip/CyberPower-Standby-ST625U-625VA-8-Port-Compact-UPS-120V-AC/383808966




I bought *two* of these and two of the expansion battery boxes
(below) for
a total of $7 at an auction.  $7 is the minimum bid (i.e., no one else
WANTED them!)

https://www.amazon.com/APC-SURTA2200RMXL2U-2200VA-Smart-UPS/dp/B003MA3W4G


https://www.amazon.com/APC-SURTA48RMXLBP2U-UPS-Battery/dp/B001BBMXFC

They were still in their original shipping boxes.  All of the batteries
still showing charge.  Someone simply decided they \"didn\'t want them\"
after having made the purchase and accepted delivery.

This is fairly common at large companies where it\'s not the decision
makers\'
money that\'s involved.

I like that form factor as they make good use of space beneath my
workstations -- tall and slender.  Most of mine are smaller (less VA):

https://www.amazon.com/APC-1500VA-Smart-UPS-Uninterruptible-SRT1500XLA/dp/B07214X49M



I was never lucky to find any UPS like that. On Ebay they quickly get
bid up to levels that are beyond what their remaining value is. So I
just bought a new one, for less that those EBay bids, and no faffing
around with batteries and stuff.

Unpack, plug in, turn on, test, move on with life. That\'s my favorite
UPS implementation method.

The IBM ThinkCenter ones are rebadged SmartUPSes that go for much
cheaper than the APC-branded ones.

I haven\'t seen any on EBay. In the end I just bought a new one from
CyberPower. Works. Well, except it doesn\'t like transformer loads which
is a bummer but not a problem in my case. When the battery gives out
some day I might try to lower the charge-end voltage and then use a
LiFePO4 battery.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
 
On 12/25/2021 12:28 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 12/23/21 8:36 AM, Don Y wrote:
On 12/22/2021 11:32 AM, Joerg wrote:
[UPSs are inexpensive -- $5]

They cost a little more, starting at $50 for a small one. Provided you
want a new one and not a castaway with a shot battery that will cost
almost as much to replace as a new UPS.

That\'s likely true for the small/cheap \"modified sine wave\"
inverters. Once you step up to true sine wave and higher
power levels, the cost of the batteries becomes a smaller
portion of the total cost. Thus, giving value to \"surplus\"
units (as ANY unit will need new batteries, eventually).

I have no need for such a fancy and expensive inverter. Except in the
generator, where true-sine was included.

Stepped sine-wave and pure sine-wave cost the same as surplus.
You\'re paying for weight, not \"technology\".

They definitely do not cost the same when new. Case in point, I bought this
for $55 plus tax, free shipping, before Bidenflation:

https://www.walmart.com/ip/CyberPower-Standby-ST625U-625VA-8-Port-Compact-UPS-120V-AC/383808966

I bought *two* of these and two of the expansion battery boxes (below) for
a total of $7 at an auction. $7 is the minimum bid (i.e., no one else
WANTED them!)

https://www.amazon.com/APC-SURTA2200RMXL2U-2200VA-Smart-UPS/dp/B003MA3W4G

https://www.amazon.com/APC-SURTA48RMXLBP2U-UPS-Battery/dp/B001BBMXFC

They were still in their original shipping boxes. All of the batteries
still showing charge. Someone simply decided they \"didn\'t want them\"
after having made the purchase and accepted delivery.

This is fairly common at large companies where it\'s not the decision makers\'
money that\'s involved.

I like that form factor as they make good use of space beneath my
workstations -- tall and slender. Most of mine are smaller (less VA):

https://www.amazon.com/APC-1500VA-Smart-UPS-Uninterruptible-SRT1500XLA/dp/B07214X49M

I was never lucky to find any UPS like that. On Ebay they quickly get bid up to
levels that are beyond what their remaining value is. So I just bought a new
one, for less that those EBay bids, and no faffing around with batteries and
stuff.

eBay is the wrong place to look for HEAVY things like UPSs.
Even if \"free\", the shipping charges would kill you.

Every \"modest\" size town/city has an abundance of businesses
that dispose of their surplus kit -- often through auctions
or other \"recyclers\" (who \"take it off their hands\").

These came from a local hospital\'s IT department. Others
have come from city gummit offices, school districts,
electronic device manufacturers, etc.

Unpack, plug in, turn on, test, move on with life. That\'s my favorite UPS
implementation method.

As mine. Except having to dispose of the 4 very large, oversized
boxes that they come packed in.

The issue with these is making sure the *feet* are available in
the auction lot before bidding.

Feet? That would be the least of my worries. Four chunks of Delrin do the
trick, or rubber for smaller units.

This form factor is intended to be rack mounted -- 2U. So,
could be \"laid flat\". That, however, eats up lots of (floor)
space -- something that is at a premium, here. I could lay
them atop my disk shelfs (4U each) but that means moving
the shelfs would require lifting the UPS off the top.

They can, alternatively, be stood on end (my preferred orientation)
where they just require a \"sliver\" of (tall) space. Feet keep
them from easily being toppled.

But, the feet are a sort of saddle onto which the UPS sits.
So, lift the UPS and the feet will stay behind. This is a
risk when the UPS is discarded and the feet get separated
from the UPS. One could make some out of 1/2\" plywood with
blocks of 2x4 on each side -- but, that\'s tacky looking.

Most UPSs that I\'ve rescued were three years old. Likely the batteries
started to fail, the IT guy got a price for replacements FROM THE UPS
VENDOR and the bean counters said \"just toss the thing\" -- rather than
processing the paperwork for the reorder, handling the delivery,
installing the replacements and disposing of the spent batteries
(i.e., beyond the inflated purchase price, there are high internal
costs to actually making the replacement)

The economies are different for smaller firms. E.g., I\'ll save the
bad batteries until I have enough of them to justify a trip to the
recycler (about 20c/pound).

Sure, but you have to have the connections to get first dibs.

No. Read again: NO ONE WANTED THEM. Think about it... many
people don\'t use a UPS. Those that do, likely have *small* units
(in terms of capacity and size).

If the batteries had been depleted/old, there is ~$20 of
recycle value in the batteries alone. So, a $7 bid nets $13
profit. But, buying them for that reason is a waste of
your time. Instead, buy with the intent of using them and
recycle the batteries when convenient.

[The battery recycler is on the drive to one of the auction sites
so I load up the car with dead batteries before the next auction]

These tend to see more use in datacenters. Folks buying for
datacenters tend to have budgets to BUY NEW -- they\'re not
\"competing\" with you for this \"surplus\" stuff.

Discarded servers similarly have \"no market\" as they are too
big/noisey for (typical) home use. And, the folks who would
otherwise be expected to want them can afford to \"buy new\".

My workstations are beasts -- 18\" deep, 21\" tall and 8\" wide.
They weigh in at a bit over 60 pounds. Folks want *small*
computers -- or laptops. They have no need for 3 accessible
drive bays, 4 internal spindles, dual NICs and 1100W power
supplies!

And, their \"recycled value\" is lower because they are harder to
disassemble into their component parts than some cheap little
Dell SFF machine or minitower. They are, essentially, trash
(dual, 6 core Xeons at 3.2GHz with 144GB of RAM)

OTOH, an i7 laptop will command a few bucks! Because people *want*
them!

Buying a surplus one on Ebay or somewhere requires a new set of batteries
($$$) plus chances are some electrolytic in there are well past prime.

You wouldn\'t want to pay for shipping. And, if a UPS can\'t be
operable after 3 years, then why would you purchase ANY one?

The ones on EBay auctions were a lot older than 3 years.

Look at the local firms in your area. All of my colleagues
were similarly ignorant of what was available in their back yards.
Now, they all make a point of visiting recyclers, auctions, etc.

And, it\'s a pleasant distraction. Like going to an old-fashioned
(not new-fangled) hardware store and looking through tools and
fasteners with an eye towards how they were intended to be used.

[I bought my second \"Personal Reader\" -- with page scanner -- at
another auction. No one knew what it was (and would likely not
want it even if they did!) so it was another $7 \"no bid\" purchase]

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zNxsYLuGqw>

page scanner, here:

<https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9d/Kurzweil_scanner_01.jpg/440px-Kurzweil_scanner_01.jpg>

Batteries for one cost no more than for the other. So, silly to
settle for stepped output when you can have sine-wave for free.

Nothing silly about that when buying a new one. Why should one spend more
money where mod-sine clearly suffices?

You\'re making the assumption that it \"suffices\".

No, I _know_ it suffices for me. As in \"I tested it\".

That was my point. My UPS needs just keep increasing. I have
a 1500VA unit dedicated to power the monitors in my office.

Each of my UPSs has a network interface so I can (programatically) monitor
load and log that (without writing any code) to another 24/7/365 box.
That feature isn\'t available on low-end units.

And I don\'t need it.

You\'re a typical consumer. I imagine I have far more kit than you
and have it all networked (there are 48 drops *in* my office, alone)

We can watch TV, listen to the radio, etc. for similar amounts of
time. Put a 13W LED/CFL bulb in a lamp and light a room for 5-6 hours!

I can do that with a car battery. But no need because the drill here is
simple, power goes, start generator, and the UPS only has to tide things
over for those 15mins or so. Plus reserves for when the batteries begin to age.

We skip the *need* for the genset as we have enough UPS capacity to
\"carry\" the convenience loads. And, can likely live without the
bigger loads (furnace, frig, freezer, microwave, etc.) for the
short time that we\'ll be without power.

We\'ve had outages in the wee hours of the morning. The repair crew was
outside promptly, isolating the defective cable segment and rerouting
power from the \"other end\". SWMBO would wonder why her bedside clock
was flashing 12:00 when she awoke: \"Did we have a power failure last night?\"

What, you did not equip her with a clock that has battery backup?

She could use the network media server -- which would give her
a backed up display *and* audio content (fall asleep to music, wake to
music/radio, etc.). But, she is \"attached\" to her little stereo.
I keep threatening NOT to repair it -- again -- but always seem to
get coerced into fixing the CD changer \"one more time\".

I\'ve even programmed the media server to respond to the remote
from that mini stereo so it can *virtually* emulate the CD
changer. But, she\'s more comfortable with what she\'s known for
~35 years... (she has a *second* one in her art studio that I
similarly have to maintain)

The actual faulted cable might not be replaced for months (which leaves
us vulnerable to a second fault). But, that\'s a bean-counter exercise
in cost vs. expectations. (They just replaced another segment down
the block a few weeks ago)

Here it\'s PG&E so the grid is iffy in general. Ours is below ground but that
doesn\'t help because much of the town\'s isn\'t. Unfortunately the transfer
station is across that part of town, so ...

The distribution transformer for this neighborhood is nearby (surrounded
by shrubbery). The infrastructure is ~40 years old (my understanding is
that it was designed to be serviced in 30). Each of the utilities
(with the notable exception of PSTN) have been lagging in their maintenance
(PSTN has been almost negligent) but we are now probably starting fresh
(all of the gas lines were recently replaced and upgraded in capacity;
the electric service incrementally replaced, water meters replaced, etc.)

Other/older parts of town are more problematic as their utilities
are overhead. So, auto accidents and other potential hazzards
(high winds, etc.) leave them at risk.

If you drive through most metropolitan/suburban areas, it\'s obvious
that most infrastructure is vulnerable to \"extraordinary events\".

Thoughout town, one will find gas and water services coming up
out of the ground for a check valve or access port, then diving
back below grade. Is it LUCK that keeps them from being struck by
errant drivers?

Our (local) well/pumping station is within 100 ft of a wash that
was catastrophically eroded in flooding 30 years back. What\'s to
stop the next event from taking *that* piece of land? <shrug>

<shrug> EXPECT *typical* outages. BE PREPARED for the exceptional
ones. But, acknowledge that you can\'t cover ALL bases!

[NORAD keeps 30 days supply of \"everything\" -- including fuel, potable
water, etc. -- on hand in case they have to seal up the mountain.
What if they need to stay sealed for *31* days???]
 
On Saturday, December 25, 2021 at 6:30:08 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:
[NORAD keeps 30 days supply of \"everything\" -- including fuel, potable
water, etc. -- on hand in case they have to seal up the mountain.
What if they need to stay sealed for *31* days???]

That\'s easy. On day 30 they cut rations in half. Every day after that they also cut rations in half. That way they never run out.

See? Simple!

--

Rick C.

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