Bit rot in micro controllers?...

[Joerg]

On 12/13/21 11:01 PM, Don Y wrote:

On 12/13/2021 8:09 PM, Sylvia Else wrote:
I suffered an outage not that long ago that lasted 36 hours, or so.
People in the nearby suburb were without power for a week.

This was after a severe storm that brought down power poles and cables.

Such things don\'t happen often, but when they do, being needlessly
without the ability to cook things is really annoying.

A bag of charcoal stored in a water-tight container (I use the
5G paint containers leftover from roof painting) will address
that easily.

Charcoal? That\'s only for wimps

I cook over manzanita or almond wood, depending on the meat for that
particular meal. When the power went for the first time around here (the
famous Californian Gray-outs) my wife almost panicked because she had
just started cooking an elaborate gourmet dinner. I fired up the barbie
and then we had everything we wanted. Steaks, freshly baked bread, baked
potatoes with sour cream, whiskey peppercorn sauce, steamed vegetables,
followed by some sort of glazed dessert and, of course, espresso.

Or, having a tank of propane (for gas grill) on hand.

No way.

Or, a small bottle of propane (think: plumber\'s torch)
and a single-burner, portable \"camp stove\".

Ok, but then I\'d rather use a few rocks and a few pieces of wire to hold
a pot over the fire.

Or, genset that can deliver ~2KW (the load for a single
stovetop burner, on HIGH).

Glamping

[dual-fuel giving you some flexibility, there]

As our utilities are below grade, outages from storms,
drunk drivers, falling tree limbs, etc. are pretty rare.

Much of California has among the highest electricity prices but a grid
reliability like Romania in the 80\'s.

[...]

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

 

[Joerg]

On 12/14/21 7:25 AM, Phil Hobbs wrote:

Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
mandag den 13. december 2021 kl. 18.28.33 UTC+1 skrev Joe Gwinn:
On Mon, 13 Dec 2021 15:15:52 +1100, Sylvia Else <syl...@email.invalid
wrote:
On 13-Dec-21 2:01 pm, Phil Hobbs wrote:
jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sat, 11 Dec 2021 11:51:11 -0800, Joerg
ne...@analogconsultants.com
wrote:

Just repaired our fridge when, according to Murphy\'s law, the next
appliance became shaky. Our pellet stove has twice refused to be
turned
off. Unfortunately, instead of analog it\'s all buttons that are
operated
via port pins of a micro controller. Pressing several of those
willy-nilly made the on/off button work, at least long enough to
turn it
off. When the circuit board is cold the botton always works but
not when
warm after running the stove overnight.

I don\'t want a kitchen stove that is uP controlled. That\'s a horrible
environment for cheap electronics. If you want to buy a non-digital
kitchen range, expect to pay a large multiple over the GE-type
electronic junk. Wolf, Viking, Bosch do good brass.

Our house came with a double oven. For some reason, one section has
electronic controls and one has the classic pneumatic-mechanical
thermostat. Guess which one still works.



We have a separate gas cooktop, which has electronic ignition and
works
perfectly after 11 years.  (We re-did the kitchen 11 hears ago.)

Ditto for a wall-mounted double oven.  The oven runs a separate fan to
keep the electronics cool, and has also worked fine that long.

Dishwashers are the real horror for electronics--we\'ve gone through
three of them in that time.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

I had a gas oven that used electronics as a thermostat, with the gas
turned on and off, rather than up and down. If it failed to reignite
after about three tries, it just gave up, without so much as a
warning beep.

So one could come back after an hour and not only discover that the
contents weren\'t cooked, one didn\'t even know how long it had been
on for.

Also, why would one want a gas oven that requires electric power to
operate so that it cannot be used during a power outage?
We had those for a while here in the US. When I was recently looking
for a replacement stove (the old one having outlived its manufacturer
by a few decades, and spares were lo longer available), one question
is if one can use the stove without mains power. As you might
imagine, there was one correct answer, and a multitude of wrong
answers -- Next!

The Thermador I bought has two burners that require mains power, but
the rest do not, but do require a manual lighter. The oven and
broiler also don\'t work without mains power. But four stovetop
burners suffices.

This was a recent change - some friends nearby also have a similar
Thermador, and it is useless without mains power.

last time I remember we had a powerout was something like 20 years ago
and lasted a few hours



You don\'t have actual weather, though.  We get Atlantic hurricanes.  We
had an outage 5 or so years ago that lasted (iirc) 8 days.

I got on the Con Edison website, and mentally divided the number of
affected customers by the number being restored per hour, and got a
number like 10 days.

There were no generators to be had locally by then, ...

During an outage I called a store for something else and before the
clerk that picked up the phone even said her name she proclaimed \"We do
not have any generators in stock\".

... so I got a 5 kW one
from Amazon and hired an electrician to put in a transfer switch and an
external feed inlet.  I had power by day 3, but it cost about $1500 all
told.  (Plus now I have to mess around with gas stabilizer and battery
tenders.)

That monster must consume gasoline to no end. I bought a 1700W/2000W
inverter generator. It suffices to drive the big kitchen fridge/freezer
and a small chest freezer downstairs. Plus the swamp cooler and a few
little items such as lights or a TV set. It modulates the engine RPM
according to load, spends much of its time in mid-idle and can run
aboyut four hours on a galloin of gasoline.

I use the stabilizer for storage purposes that is supposed to last two
years. I also start the generator about once a month, to make sure the
carburetor doesn\'t gunk up and to have peace of mind that it will start
if needed.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

 

[Joerg]

On 12/14/21 7:15 AM, Phil Hobbs wrote:
> Sylvia Else wrote:

[...]

So one could come back after an hour and not only discover that the
contents weren\'t cooked, one didn\'t even know how long it had been on
for.

Also, why would one want a gas oven that requires electric power to
operate so that it cannot be used during a power outage?

Why would one want a gas oven, period?  All that water vapour makes
pastry tough.    Electric ovens, gas cooktops are the ticket.

Nah, a wood fire is the ticket. That\'s how I also bake pizza, rolls and
bread. The real bread, German style with a crust that requires good
chompers. Our house has an indoor cooking alcove for woord/charcoal
cooking but I always do it outdoors. Rain or shine. Less messy, more
manly

[...]

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

 

[Don Y]

On 12/14/2021 4:52 PM, Joerg wrote:

On 12/13/21 11:01 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 12/13/2021 8:09 PM, Sylvia Else wrote:
I suffered an outage not that long ago that lasted 36 hours, or so. People
in the nearby suburb were without power for a week.

This was after a severe storm that brought down power poles and cables.

Such things don\'t happen often, but when they do, being needlessly without
the ability to cook things is really annoying.

A bag of charcoal stored in a water-tight container (I use the
5G paint containers leftover from roof painting) will address
that easily.

Charcoal? That\'s only for wimps

Try burning a stump out of the ground with \"a pile of wood\".

I cook over manzanita or almond wood, depending on the meat for that particular
meal. When the power went for the first time around here (the famous
Californian Gray-outs) my wife almost panicked because she had just started
cooking an elaborate gourmet dinner. I fired up the barbie and then we had
everything we wanted. Steaks, freshly baked bread, baked potatoes with sour
cream, whiskey peppercorn sauce, steamed vegetables, followed by some sort of
glazed dessert and, of course, espresso.

Or, having a tank of propane (for gas grill) on hand.

No way.

Running a genset on wood is pretty tough...

Or, a small bottle of propane (think: plumber\'s torch)
and a single-burner, portable \"camp stove\".

Ok, but then I\'d rather use a few rocks and a few pieces of wire to hold a pot
over the fire.

Or, genset that can deliver ~2KW (the load for a single
stovetop burner, on HIGH).

Glamping

[dual-fuel giving you some flexibility, there]

As our utilities are below grade, outages from storms,
drunk drivers, falling tree limbs, etc. are pretty rare.

Much of California has among the highest electricity prices but a grid
reliability like Romania in the 80\'s.

We (our house) have been caught downstream of two cable-segment
faults. I believe there is one that hasn\'t yet failed between
us and our nominal feed direction. Once that has failed and been
replaced, we should be set for another 20+ years...

[An amusing feeling to see homes \"two doors down\" with power while
you sit in the dark. But, the outages are never long enough to
warrant firing up the genset; the UPSs carry most of the important
loads...]

Other (older) parts of town still have flying power/phone
distribution. I suspect they suffer more outages from the
increased vulnerability of that distribution method.

 

[Phil Hobbs]

Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

tirsdag den 14. december 2021 kl. 16.25.53 UTC+1 skrev Phil Hobbs:
Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
mandag den 13. december 2021 kl. 18.28.33 UTC+1 skrev Joe Gwinn:
On Mon, 13 Dec 2021 15:15:52 +1100, Sylvia Else <syl...@email.invalid
wrote:
On 13-Dec-21 2:01 pm, Phil Hobbs wrote:
jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sat, 11 Dec 2021 11:51:11 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com
wrote:

Just repaired our fridge when, according to Murphy\'s law, the next
appliance became shaky. Our pellet stove has twice refused to be turned
off. Unfortunately, instead of analog it\'s all buttons that are operated
via port pins of a micro controller. Pressing several of those
willy-nilly made the on/off button work, at least long enough to turn it
off. When the circuit board is cold the botton always works but not when
warm after running the stove overnight.

I don\'t want a kitchen stove that is uP controlled. That\'s a horrible
environment for cheap electronics. If you want to buy a non-digital
kitchen range, expect to pay a large multiple over the GE-type
electronic junk. Wolf, Viking, Bosch do good brass.

Our house came with a double oven. For some reason, one section has
electronic controls and one has the classic pneumatic-mechanical
thermostat. Guess which one still works.



We have a separate gas cooktop, which has electronic ignition and works
perfectly after 11 years. (We re-did the kitchen 11 hears ago.)

Ditto for a wall-mounted double oven. The oven runs a separate fan to
keep the electronics cool, and has also worked fine that long.

Dishwashers are the real horror for electronics--we\'ve gone through
three of them in that time.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

I had a gas oven that used electronics as a thermostat, with the gas
turned on and off, rather than up and down. If it failed to reignite
after about three tries, it just gave up, without so much as a warning beep.

So one could come back after an hour and not only discover that the
contents weren\'t cooked, one didn\'t even know how long it had been on for.

Also, why would one want a gas oven that requires electric power to
operate so that it cannot be used during a power outage?
We had those for a while here in the US. When I was recently looking
for a replacement stove (the old one having outlived its manufacturer
by a few decades, and spares were lo longer available), one question
is if one can use the stove without mains power. As you might
imagine, there was one correct answer, and a multitude of wrong
answers -- Next!

The Thermador I bought has two burners that require mains power, but
the rest do not, but do require a manual lighter. The oven and
broiler also don\'t work without mains power. But four stovetop
burners suffices.

This was a recent change - some friends nearby also have a similar
Thermador, and it is useless without mains power.

last time I remember we had a powerout was something like 20 years ago and lasted a few hours


You don\'t have actual weather, though. We get Atlantic hurricanes. We
had an outage 5 or so years ago that lasted (iirc) 8 days.

put the cables under ground

But then when water gets in, you\'re out for weeks and weeks. No thanks.
During Hurricane Floyd, we got over 60 cm of rain in a day, plus a
number of washed-out roads. That will reliably do a job on underground
mains.

A dozen years later we had Hurricane Irene, which was smaller, but in my
nabe was even worse because it washed out a short section of road that
also had electric, gas, and water mains.

The networks were well-designed, so most of the supply was restored
quickly, but fixing the damage took a couple of months.

As I said, you folks don\'t have real weather.

I got on the Con Edison website, and mentally divided the number of
affected customers by the number being restored per hour, and got a
number like 10 days.

There were no generators to be had locally by then, so I got a 5 kW one
from Amazon and hired an electrician to put in a transfer switch and an
external feed inlet. I had power by day 3, but it cost about $1500 all
told. (Plus now I have to mess around with gas stabilizer and battery
tenders.)
Cheers

get hybrid car, some of them have a pretty beefy inverter that runs off the main ~400V battery

What I actually did was to get a generic electric gas pump and some
5/8-inch tube, so that I can pump gas directly from my car to the genny,
and then pump it back once power is restored.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

 

[Phil Hobbs]

Joerg wrote:

On 12/14/21 7:25 AM, Phil Hobbs wrote:
Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
mandag den 13. december 2021 kl. 18.28.33 UTC+1 skrev Joe Gwinn:
On Mon, 13 Dec 2021 15:15:52 +1100, Sylvia Else <syl...@email.invalid
wrote:
On 13-Dec-21 2:01 pm, Phil Hobbs wrote:
jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sat, 11 Dec 2021 11:51:11 -0800, Joerg
ne...@analogconsultants.com
wrote:

Just repaired our fridge when, according to Murphy\'s law, the next
appliance became shaky. Our pellet stove has twice refused to be
turned
off. Unfortunately, instead of analog it\'s all buttons that are
operated
via port pins of a micro controller. Pressing several of those
willy-nilly made the on/off button work, at least long enough to
turn it
off. When the circuit board is cold the botton always works but
not when
warm after running the stove overnight.

I don\'t want a kitchen stove that is uP controlled. That\'s a
horrible
environment for cheap electronics. If you want to buy a non-digital
kitchen range, expect to pay a large multiple over the GE-type
electronic junk. Wolf, Viking, Bosch do good brass.

Our house came with a double oven. For some reason, one section has
electronic controls and one has the classic pneumatic-mechanical
thermostat. Guess which one still works.



We have a separate gas cooktop, which has electronic ignition and
works
perfectly after 11 years.  (We re-did the kitchen 11 hears ago.)

Ditto for a wall-mounted double oven.  The oven runs a separate
fan to
keep the electronics cool, and has also worked fine that long.

Dishwashers are the real horror for electronics--we\'ve gone through
three of them in that time.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

I had a gas oven that used electronics as a thermostat, with the gas
turned on and off, rather than up and down. If it failed to reignite
after about three tries, it just gave up, without so much as a
warning beep.

So one could come back after an hour and not only discover that the
contents weren\'t cooked, one didn\'t even know how long it had been
on for.

Also, why would one want a gas oven that requires electric power to
operate so that it cannot be used during a power outage?
We had those for a while here in the US. When I was recently looking
for a replacement stove (the old one having outlived its manufacturer
by a few decades, and spares were lo longer available), one question
is if one can use the stove without mains power. As you might
imagine, there was one correct answer, and a multitude of wrong
answers -- Next!

The Thermador I bought has two burners that require mains power, but
the rest do not, but do require a manual lighter. The oven and
broiler also don\'t work without mains power. But four stovetop
burners suffices.

This was a recent change - some friends nearby also have a similar
Thermador, and it is useless without mains power.

last time I remember we had a powerout was something like 20 years
ago and lasted a few hours



You don\'t have actual weather, though.  We get Atlantic hurricanes.
We had an outage 5 or so years ago that lasted (iirc) 8 days.

I got on the Con Edison website, and mentally divided the number of
affected customers by the number being restored per hour, and got a
number like 10 days.

There were no generators to be had locally by then, ...


During an outage I called a store for something else and before the
clerk that picked up the phone even said her name she proclaimed \"We do
not have any generators in stock\".


                                               ... so I got a 5 kW one
from Amazon and hired an electrician to put in a transfer switch and
an external feed inlet.  I had power by day 3, but it cost about $1500
all told.  (Plus now I have to mess around with gas stabilizer and
battery tenders.)


That monster must consume gasoline to no end.

Nah, under a gallon per hour while running the furnace, fridges,
freezer, and computers. It runs toasters and microwaves fine, but tends
to trip if people forget and use the garbage disposal. h

I bought a 1700W/2000W

inverter generator. It suffices to drive the big kitchen fridge/freezer
and a small chest freezer downstairs. Plus the swamp cooler and a few
little items such as lights or a TV set. It modulates the engine RPM
according to load, spends much of its time in mid-idle and can run
aboyut four hours on a galloin of gasoline.

Depends a lot on the load. Our outages tend to be in the winter.

I use the stabilizer for storage purposes that is supposed to last two
years. I also start the generator about once a month, to make sure the
carburetor doesn\'t gunk up and to have peace of mind that it will start
if needed.

Letting it run dry is usually enough.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs


--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

 

[Phil Hobbs]

Phil Hobbs wrote:

Joerg wrote:
On 12/14/21 7:25 AM, Phil Hobbs wrote:
Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
mandag den 13. december 2021 kl. 18.28.33 UTC+1 skrev Joe Gwinn:
On Mon, 13 Dec 2021 15:15:52 +1100, Sylvia Else <syl...@email.invalid
wrote:
On 13-Dec-21 2:01 pm, Phil Hobbs wrote:
jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sat, 11 Dec 2021 11:51:11 -0800, Joerg
ne...@analogconsultants.com
wrote:

Just repaired our fridge when, according to Murphy\'s law, the next
appliance became shaky. Our pellet stove has twice refused to
be turned
off. Unfortunately, instead of analog it\'s all buttons that are
operated
via port pins of a micro controller. Pressing several of those
willy-nilly made the on/off button work, at least long enough
to turn it
off. When the circuit board is cold the botton always works but
not when
warm after running the stove overnight.

I don\'t want a kitchen stove that is uP controlled. That\'s a
horrible
environment for cheap electronics. If you want to buy a non-digital
kitchen range, expect to pay a large multiple over the GE-type
electronic junk. Wolf, Viking, Bosch do good brass.

Our house came with a double oven. For some reason, one section has
electronic controls and one has the classic pneumatic-mechanical
thermostat. Guess which one still works.



We have a separate gas cooktop, which has electronic ignition and
works
perfectly after 11 years.  (We re-did the kitchen 11 hears ago.)

Ditto for a wall-mounted double oven.  The oven runs a separate
fan to
keep the electronics cool, and has also worked fine that long.

Dishwashers are the real horror for electronics--we\'ve gone through
three of them in that time.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

I had a gas oven that used electronics as a thermostat, with the gas
turned on and off, rather than up and down. If it failed to reignite
after about three tries, it just gave up, without so much as a
warning beep.

So one could come back after an hour and not only discover that the
contents weren\'t cooked, one didn\'t even know how long it had been
on for.

Also, why would one want a gas oven that requires electric power to
operate so that it cannot be used during a power outage?
We had those for a while here in the US. When I was recently looking
for a replacement stove (the old one having outlived its manufacturer
by a few decades, and spares were lo longer available), one question
is if one can use the stove without mains power. As you might
imagine, there was one correct answer, and a multitude of wrong
answers -- Next!

The Thermador I bought has two burners that require mains power, but
the rest do not, but do require a manual lighter. The oven and
broiler also don\'t work without mains power. But four stovetop
burners suffices.

This was a recent change - some friends nearby also have a similar
Thermador, and it is useless without mains power.

last time I remember we had a powerout was something like 20 years
ago and lasted a few hours



You don\'t have actual weather, though.  We get Atlantic hurricanes.
We had an outage 5 or so years ago that lasted (iirc) 8 days.

I got on the Con Edison website, and mentally divided the number of
affected customers by the number being restored per hour, and got a
number like 10 days.

There were no generators to be had locally by then, ...


During an outage I called a store for something else and before the
clerk that picked up the phone even said her name she proclaimed \"We
do not have any generators in stock\".


                                               ... so I got a 5 kW
one from Amazon and hired an electrician to put in a transfer switch
and an external feed inlet.  I had power by day 3, but it cost about
$1500 all told.  (Plus now I have to mess around with gas stabilizer
and battery tenders.)


That monster must consume gasoline to no end.

Nah, under

half

a gallon per hour while running the furnace, fridges,

freezer, and computers.  It runs toasters and microwaves fine, but tends
to trip if people forget and use the garbage disposal.

(it runs overnight on one 4-gallon tankful)

I bought a 1700W/2000W
inverter generator. It suffices to drive the big kitchen
fridge/freezer and a small chest freezer downstairs. Plus the swamp
cooler and a few little items such as lights or a TV set. It modulates
the engine RPM according to load, spends much of its time in mid-idle
and can run aboyut four hours on a galloin of gasoline.

Depends a lot on the load.  Our outages tend to be in the winter.

I use the stabilizer for storage purposes that is supposed to last two
years. I also start the generator about once a month, to make sure the
carburetor doesn\'t gunk up and to have peace of mind that it will
start if needed.

Letting it run dry is usually enough.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

 

[Dave Platt]

In article <a7db9567-a151-eaae-b434-130c8cca1f94@electrooptical.net>,
Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

put the cables under ground

But then when water gets in, you\'re out for weeks and weeks. No thanks.

I went to college in Rochester, New York, in an area which was
lightly-reclaimed marshland. The college campus was relatively new,
and all of the cables were buried.

We could usually count on a substantial power outage in the dorms
every year, when snow-melt season arrived and there was lots of
standing water around. The annex holding the college computer center
had the same problem (it was even closer to the water table).

I don\'t recall the outages being more than a half-day or so - maybe
there were secondary cables to which they could switch, while they
fired up the trenching machines and dug up and replaced the shorted
sections.

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Tue, 14 Dec 2021 12:24:44 -0800) it happened Joerg
<news@analogconsultants.com> wrote in <j1scseFca06U1@mid.individual.net>:

On 12/13/21 9:25 PM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Mon, 13 Dec 2021 23:27:52 -0500, Spehro Pefhany
speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:

On Sat, 11 Dec 2021 11:51:11 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com
wrote:

Just repaired our fridge when, according to Murphy\'s law, the next
appliance became shaky. Our pellet stove has twice refused to be turned
off. Unfortunately, instead of analog it\'s all buttons that are operated
via port pins of a micro controller. Pressing several of those
willy-nilly made the on/off button work, at least long enough to turn it
off. When the circuit board is cold the botton always works but not when
warm after running the stove overnight.

The micro controller is a Winbond W78E52BF-24 running on a 12MHz
crystal. It is based on what they call electrically erasable MTP-ROM
with which I assume they mean EEPROM. Date code is 2001 and that is also
when we had that pellet stove installed.

Can these things develop loss of flash memory (bit rot) this soon, after
only two decades? Any remedy short or reprogramming or is it toast?

1. Yes it\'s possible. High temperatures will speed it up (that\'s how
they test retention).


That doesn\'t sound encouraging :-(

Before you blame the processor, check for dirt accumulated on the button contacts,
If the chip was wrong it likely would not work at all.
Cooking and stuff like that causes all sort of vapors to solidify on mechanical contact.
Simply wire a switch to test if that works?
Check soldering, electrolytic caps, power supply voltage..

 

[Joerg]

On 12/14/21 4:38 PM, Don Y wrote:

On 12/14/2021 4:52 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 12/13/21 11:01 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 12/13/2021 8:09 PM, Sylvia Else wrote:
I suffered an outage not that long ago that lasted 36 hours, or so.
People in the nearby suburb were without power for a week.

This was after a severe storm that brought down power poles and cables.

Such things don\'t happen often, but when they do, being needlessly
without the ability to cook things is really annoying.

A bag of charcoal stored in a water-tight container (I use the
5G paint containers leftover from roof painting) will address
that easily.

Charcoal? That\'s only for wimps

Try burning a stump out of the ground with \"a pile of wood\".

Why do you need to burn out a stump for cooking?

I cook over manzanita or almond wood, depending on the meat for that
particular meal. When the power went for the first time around here
(the famous Californian Gray-outs) my wife almost panicked because she
had just started cooking an elaborate gourmet dinner. I fired up the
barbie and then we had everything we wanted. Steaks, freshly baked
bread, baked potatoes with sour cream, whiskey peppercorn sauce,
steamed vegetables, followed by some sort of glazed dessert and, of
course, espresso.

Or, having a tank of propane (for gas grill) on hand.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

No way.

Running a genset on wood is pretty tough...

Well, this was about a gas grill and there ain\'t never going to be no
gas grill in this here yard

Or, a small bottle of propane (think: plumber\'s torch)
and a single-burner, portable \"camp stove\".

Ok, but then I\'d rather use a few rocks and a few pieces of wire to
hold a pot over the fire.

Or, genset that can deliver ~2KW (the load for a single
stovetop burner, on HIGH).

Glamping

[dual-fuel giving you some flexibility, there]

As our utilities are below grade, outages from storms,
drunk drivers, falling tree limbs, etc. are pretty rare.

Much of California has among the highest electricity prices but a grid
reliability like Romania in the 80\'s.

We (our house) have been caught downstream of two cable-segment
faults.  I believe there is one that hasn\'t yet failed between
us and our nominal feed direction.  Once that has failed and been
replaced, we should be set for another 20+ years...

PG&E said they\'ll shut us off early January for repairs. Hopefully that
will make things more reliable. Electricity felt like a huge step back
after moving from Europe to California. It\'s so unreliable here.

[An amusing feeling to see homes \"two doors down\" with power while
you sit in the dark.  But, the outages are never long enough to
warrant firing up the genset; the UPSs carry most of the important
loads...]

I have a UPS for the wood stove fans. That will only run them for
30-40mins (with a new SLA battery). I could probably roach on a big
LiFePO4 battery but that would now cost north of $200 and require some
hack to reduce the charge-end voltage. Main thing, it\'s long enough
right now until I\'ve got the generator set up, cables run and started.

Other (older) parts of town still have flying power/phone
distribution.  I suspect they suffer more outages from the
increased vulnerability of that distribution method.

When my dad from Germany was here he said \"A lot of stuff in America
looks so kludged and temporary\"

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

 

[Don Y]

On 12/15/2021 1:09 PM, Joerg wrote:

On 12/14/21 4:38 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 12/14/2021 4:52 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 12/13/21 11:01 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 12/13/2021 8:09 PM, Sylvia Else wrote:
I suffered an outage not that long ago that lasted 36 hours, or so. People
in the nearby suburb were without power for a week.

This was after a severe storm that brought down power poles and cables.

Such things don\'t happen often, but when they do, being needlessly without
the ability to cook things is really annoying.

A bag of charcoal stored in a water-tight container (I use the
5G paint containers leftover from roof painting) will address
that easily.

Charcoal? That\'s only for wimps

Try burning a stump out of the ground with \"a pile of wood\".

Why do you need to burn out a stump for cooking?

I need to burn out *stumps* for trees that I fell. It
would be defeatist to hire a stump grinder to sort out that
last bit of the tree I\'ve felled! :>

Digging them up is considerably more time consuming
and requires a shitload more effort! The last such effort
took me several months and netted a half *ton* stump (more
than two cubic yards of wood) -- removing 7T of soil to
fully expose the root structure beneath.

[A neighbor claims my effort ended up in the local newspaper?]

I cook over manzanita or almond wood, depending on the meat for that
particular meal. When the power went for the first time around here (the
famous Californian Gray-outs) my wife almost panicked because she had just
started cooking an elaborate gourmet dinner. I fired up the barbie and then
we had everything we wanted. Steaks, freshly baked bread, baked potatoes
with sour cream, whiskey peppercorn sauce, steamed vegetables, followed by
some sort of glazed dessert and, of course, espresso.

Or, having a tank of propane (for gas grill) on hand.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
No way.

Running a genset on wood is pretty tough...

Well, this was about a gas grill and there ain\'t never going to be no gas grill
in this here yard

It\'s about sources of energy. Cooking being one potential use.

Or, a small bottle of propane (think: plumber\'s torch)
and a single-burner, portable \"camp stove\".

Ok, but then I\'d rather use a few rocks and a few pieces of wire to hold a
pot over the fire.

Or, genset that can deliver ~2KW (the load for a single
stovetop burner, on HIGH).

Glamping

[dual-fuel giving you some flexibility, there]

As our utilities are below grade, outages from storms,
drunk drivers, falling tree limbs, etc. are pretty rare.

Much of California has among the highest electricity prices but a grid
reliability like Romania in the 80\'s.

We (our house) have been caught downstream of two cable-segment
faults. I believe there is one that hasn\'t yet failed between
us and our nominal feed direction. Once that has failed and been
replaced, we should be set for another 20+ years...

PG&E said they\'ll shut us off early January for repairs. Hopefully that will
make things more reliable. Electricity felt like a huge step back after moving
from Europe to California. It\'s so unreliable here.

Our \"supply\" is reliable. It\'s the distribution network on our
*street* that is showing signs of age. Likely related to folks
updating services without the buried lines being \"rejuvenated\"
to adapt to same.

When I lived in the midwest (overhead lines), it was a monthly
event to find yourself in the dark! Though I suspect outages are
*very* \"localized\", there, as here.

[An amusing feeling to see homes \"two doors down\" with power while
you sit in the dark. But, the outages are never long enough to
warrant firing up the genset; the UPSs carry most of the important
loads...]

I have a UPS for the wood stove fans. That will only run them for 30-40mins
(with a new SLA battery). I could probably roach on a big LiFePO4 battery but
that would now cost north of $200 and require some hack to reduce the
charge-end voltage. Main thing, it\'s long enough right now until I\'ve got the
generator set up, cables run and started.

I can run the fridge, furnace, freezer and stovetop with the
genset. Plus most of the \"electronics\" when their UPSs
lose capacity. I\'ve a UPS in the garage that can act in
place of the genset (5KW, 5KWHr capacity) save for the
inconvenience of running wires.

But, we rarely have outages in the (two month?) heating season so the
furnace rarely is a motivating factor to start the genset. And,
keep the fridge closed and it will maintain its contents for a while.
Ditto with the freezer. For a meal/snack, we can live without
the cooktop for a few hours.

The ACBrrrr is the biggest motivation for supplemental power.
And, it draws considerably more than the genset can supply.
As outages are rare enough, the idea of buying a *larger*
genset is foolish. Spend the money for a hotel room if
the power is going to be out overnight!

Someday, I\'ll buy a small \"room-sized\" unit for those
events. But, then, what to use it for when power is
available??

Other (older) parts of town still have flying power/phone
distribution. I suspect they suffer more outages from the
increased vulnerability of that distribution method.

When my dad from Germany was here he said \"A lot of stuff in America looks so
kludged and temporary\"

There are advantages to overhead utilities. But, they are eyesores.
I suppose there are risks associated with pad-mounted transformers
(drivers crashing into them?) but haven\'t seen that as a common
cause for \"loss\".

Your father would be far more amused at life south of the border
(or in many {C,S}American countries). Folks with \"summer properties\"
in Baja contend with water being *delivered* to the rooftop tank.
The idea of NOT being able to luxuriate in a warm shower is
terrifying to me! :< \"Sponge baths\" make vacationing, there,
really distressing...

 

[Three Jeeps]

On Tuesday, December 14, 2021 at 6:59:59 PM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:

On 12/14/21 7:25 AM, Phil Hobbs wrote:
Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
mandag den 13. december 2021 kl. 18.28.33 UTC+1 skrev Joe Gwinn:
On Mon, 13 Dec 2021 15:15:52 +1100, Sylvia Else <syl...@email.invalid
wrote:
On 13-Dec-21 2:01 pm, Phil Hobbs wrote:
jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sat, 11 Dec 2021 11:51:11 -0800, Joerg
ne...@analogconsultants.com
wrote:

Just repaired our fridge when, according to Murphy\'s law, the next
appliance became shaky. Our pellet stove has twice refused to be
turned
off. Unfortunately, instead of analog it\'s all buttons that are
operated
via port pins of a micro controller. Pressing several of those
willy-nilly made the on/off button work, at least long enough to
turn it
off. When the circuit board is cold the botton always works but
not when
warm after running the stove overnight.

I don\'t want a kitchen stove that is uP controlled. That\'s a horrible
environment for cheap electronics. If you want to buy a non-digital
kitchen range, expect to pay a large multiple over the GE-type
electronic junk. Wolf, Viking, Bosch do good brass.

Our house came with a double oven. For some reason, one section has
electronic controls and one has the classic pneumatic-mechanical
thermostat. Guess which one still works.



We have a separate gas cooktop, which has electronic ignition and
works
perfectly after 11 years. (We re-did the kitchen 11 hears ago.)

Ditto for a wall-mounted double oven. The oven runs a separate fan to
keep the electronics cool, and has also worked fine that long.

Dishwashers are the real horror for electronics--we\'ve gone through
three of them in that time.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

I had a gas oven that used electronics as a thermostat, with the gas
turned on and off, rather than up and down. If it failed to reignite
after about three tries, it just gave up, without so much as a
warning beep.

So one could come back after an hour and not only discover that the
contents weren\'t cooked, one didn\'t even know how long it had been
on for.

Also, why would one want a gas oven that requires electric power to
operate so that it cannot be used during a power outage?
We had those for a while here in the US. When I was recently looking
for a replacement stove (the old one having outlived its manufacturer
by a few decades, and spares were lo longer available), one question
is if one can use the stove without mains power. As you might
imagine, there was one correct answer, and a multitude of wrong
answers -- Next!

The Thermador I bought has two burners that require mains power, but
the rest do not, but do require a manual lighter. The oven and
broiler also don\'t work without mains power. But four stovetop
burners suffices.

This was a recent change - some friends nearby also have a similar
Thermador, and it is useless without mains power.

last time I remember we had a powerout was something like 20 years ago
and lasted a few hours



You don\'t have actual weather, though. We get Atlantic hurricanes. We
had an outage 5 or so years ago that lasted (iirc) 8 days.

I got on the Con Edison website, and mentally divided the number of
affected customers by the number being restored per hour, and got a
number like 10 days.

There were no generators to be had locally by then, ...


During an outage I called a store for something else and before the
clerk that picked up the phone even said her name she proclaimed \"We do
not have any generators in stock\".


... so I got a 5 kW one
from Amazon and hired an electrician to put in a transfer switch and an
external feed inlet. I had power by day 3, but it cost about $1500 all
told. (Plus now I have to mess around with gas stabilizer and battery
tenders.)

That monster must consume gasoline to no end. I bought a 1700W/2000W
inverter generator. It suffices to drive the big kitchen fridge/freezer
and a small chest freezer downstairs. Plus the swamp cooler and a few
little items such as lights or a TV set. It modulates the engine RPM
according to load, spends much of its time in mid-idle and can run
aboyut four hours on a galloin of gasoline.

I use the stabilizer for storage purposes that is supposed to last two
years. I also start the generator about once a month, to make sure the
carburetor doesn\'t gunk up and to have peace of mind that it will start
if needed.
--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

I makes no sense to me why a generator that uses gasoline for emergency situations would be used. Most stabilizer products I am familiar with specify 12-18 months without deterioration of the gasoline. I\'ve cleaned/rebuilt too many carbs that have suffered damage from gasoline contaminates and varnish. Anyway, Murphies law will show up just when you need the generator the most. The crop of Chinese carbs prevalent on a lot of generators (especially the big box types) are more sensitive to bad gasoline and their plastic or rubber parts deteriorate faster than higher quality carbs.
Get a dual fuel carb, run the generator on propane/NG, no deterioration, burns cleaner, albeit with slightly less power. Store a couple of 40lbl propane tanks and you are good to go. If you run out of propane, switch to gasoline in a pinch.
Yes, you can do all the monthly startup and checks but not necessary if a propane fuel is used - still a good idea to check it say 1-2 times a year, depending on circumstances. Beats 12 times a year.

 

[Three Jeeps]

On Tuesday, December 14, 2021 at 10:03:04 PM UTC-5, Phil Hobbs wrote:

Phil Hobbs wrote:
Joerg wrote:
On 12/14/21 7:25 AM, Phil Hobbs wrote:
Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
mandag den 13. december 2021 kl. 18.28.33 UTC+1 skrev Joe Gwinn:
On Mon, 13 Dec 2021 15:15:52 +1100, Sylvia Else <syl...@email.invalid
wrote:
On 13-Dec-21 2:01 pm, Phil Hobbs wrote:
jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sat, 11 Dec 2021 11:51:11 -0800, Joerg
ne...@analogconsultants.com
wrote:

Just repaired our fridge when, according to Murphy\'s law, the next
appliance became shaky. Our pellet stove has twice refused to
be turned
off. Unfortunately, instead of analog it\'s all buttons that are
operated
via port pins of a micro controller. Pressing several of those
willy-nilly made the on/off button work, at least long enough
to turn it
off. When the circuit board is cold the botton always works but
not when
warm after running the stove overnight.

I don\'t want a kitchen stove that is uP controlled. That\'s a
horrible
environment for cheap electronics. If you want to buy a non-digital
kitchen range, expect to pay a large multiple over the GE-type
electronic junk. Wolf, Viking, Bosch do good brass.

Our house came with a double oven. For some reason, one section has
electronic controls and one has the classic pneumatic-mechanical
thermostat. Guess which one still works.



We have a separate gas cooktop, which has electronic ignition and
works
perfectly after 11 years. (We re-did the kitchen 11 hears ago.)

Ditto for a wall-mounted double oven. The oven runs a separate
fan to
keep the electronics cool, and has also worked fine that long.

Dishwashers are the real horror for electronics--we\'ve gone through
three of them in that time.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

I had a gas oven that used electronics as a thermostat, with the gas
turned on and off, rather than up and down. If it failed to reignite
after about three tries, it just gave up, without so much as a
warning beep.

So one could come back after an hour and not only discover that the
contents weren\'t cooked, one didn\'t even know how long it had been
on for.

Also, why would one want a gas oven that requires electric power to
operate so that it cannot be used during a power outage?
We had those for a while here in the US. When I was recently looking
for a replacement stove (the old one having outlived its manufacturer
by a few decades, and spares were lo longer available), one question
is if one can use the stove without mains power. As you might
imagine, there was one correct answer, and a multitude of wrong
answers -- Next!

The Thermador I bought has two burners that require mains power, but
the rest do not, but do require a manual lighter. The oven and
broiler also don\'t work without mains power. But four stovetop
burners suffices.

This was a recent change - some friends nearby also have a similar
Thermador, and it is useless without mains power.

last time I remember we had a powerout was something like 20 years
ago and lasted a few hours



You don\'t have actual weather, though. We get Atlantic hurricanes.
We had an outage 5 or so years ago that lasted (iirc) 8 days.

I got on the Con Edison website, and mentally divided the number of
affected customers by the number being restored per hour, and got a
number like 10 days.

There were no generators to be had locally by then, ...


During an outage I called a store for something else and before the
clerk that picked up the phone even said her name she proclaimed \"We
do not have any generators in stock\".


... so I got a 5 kW
one from Amazon and hired an electrician to put in a transfer switch
and an external feed inlet. I had power by day 3, but it cost about
$1500 all told. (Plus now I have to mess around with gas stabilizer
and battery tenders.)


That monster must consume gasoline to no end.

Nah, under
half
a gallon per hour while running the furnace, fridges,
freezer, and computers. It runs toasters and microwaves fine, but tends
to trip if people forget and use the garbage disposal.
(it runs overnight on one 4-gallon tankful)

I bought a 1700W/2000W
inverter generator. It suffices to drive the big kitchen
fridge/freezer and a small chest freezer downstairs. Plus the swamp
cooler and a few little items such as lights or a TV set. It modulates
the engine RPM according to load, spends much of its time in mid-idle
and can run aboyut four hours on a galloin of gasoline.

Depends a lot on the load. Our outages tend to be in the winter.

I use the stabilizer for storage purposes that is supposed to last two
years. I also start the generator about once a month, to make sure the
carburetor doesn\'t gunk up and to have peace of mind that it will
start if needed.

Letting it run dry is usually enough.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs




--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

I recently got a 2021 Toyota Highlander hybrid. It has a 1800W pure sine wave inverter that is connected to the very large 1.9 kWh battery.
For emergency use, I have a cable from the Highlander to the gas furnace in the house. Will run the gas furnace with no problem.
The neat thing about the Highlander, as well as most hybrids, is that the computer that monitors the battery when external loads are seen, it will start the engine to charge the battery, the turn it off when charged. If the Highlander has a full tank of gas, I calculated that it could run the furnace for at least a week with outside temps around 30 degrees F, given the particulars of my house insulation and high efficiency furnace.
I really like diverse redundant solutions....
j

 

[Don Y]

On 12/15/2021 7:34 PM, Three Jeeps wrote:

I makes no sense to me why a generator that uses gasoline for emergency
situations would be used.

If you drive a vehicle that runs on diesel, it would be preferable.
Keep some 5G jerry cans on hand and cycle them through the vehicle
so you don\'t even worry about \"stale fuel\".

Most stabilizer products I am familiar with
specify 12-18 months without deterioration of the gasoline. I\'ve
cleaned/rebuilt too many carbs that have suffered damage from gasoline
contaminates and varnish.

The same diesel approach applies to gasoline powered gensets. Don\'t store
fuel *in* the genset. Move it from cans into the vehicle(s) and/or genset
as needed.

Anyway, Murphies law will show up just when you
need the generator the most. The crop of Chinese carbs prevalent on a lot of
generators (especially the big box types) are more sensitive to bad gasoline
and their plastic or rubber parts deteriorate faster than higher quality
carbs.

Carburetors aren\'t hard to clean/rebuild. But, you\'d not want to
be doing it when you *needed* the genset. Sort of like having to drive
to the store to buy batteries for your flashlight during a power outage...

Get a dual fuel carb, run the generator on propane/NG, no
deterioration, burns cleaner, albeit with slightly less power.

Exactly.

Store a
couple of 40lbl propane tanks and you are good to go.

The downside is *storing* the fuel JUST for use in the genset.
If, instead, you look at it as an energy source and plan on *using*
it, as such, then it\'s not (a hopefully unused!) \"overhead\".

Gasoline and/or diesel can only be used in engines -- gensets or
vehicles. Propane can be used to fire a small, single-burner
\"camp stove\" in a prolonged outage *or* if you have to bugout.
Whether that is a small 16oz \"torch canister\" or a big tank,
the fuel is the same. The act that it can *also* power the genset
is a win-win.

A 5G can of gas/diesel isn\'t going to help you prepare meals!

If you run out of
propane, switch to gasoline in a pinch. Yes, you can do all the monthly
startup and checks but not necessary if a propane fuel is used - still a
good idea to check it say 1-2 times a year, depending on circumstances.
Beats 12 times a year.

We looked into buying a propane fired kiln (as another way to *regularly*
\"consume\" the propane) but SWMBO\'s interests changed. Still may end up
doing that as I need to make some ceramic parts and having the kiln
on hand (instead of outsourcing) would be much more convenient.

Certainly more convenient than running a big *dedicated* electric branch
just for a kiln!

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

On Tue, 14 Dec 2021 12:24:44 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

Yes! Or better yet, design an analog controller that works like it used
to be on pellet stoves.

Or you could go the other way and use something like this on a
Raspberry Pi:

https://pypi.org/project/PyScada/

;-) All sorts of fun with Django and React, cascading style sheets
to get the perfect layouts for remote access on different mobile
devices, and some interesting problems with guaranteeing safe shutdown
of the Debian file system.
--
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

On Tue, 14 Dec 2021 09:53:35 -0800 (PST), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
<langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabotage

Exactly. A foreign air carrier, say carrying passengers from Tokyo to
Honolulu and then onward to LAX is not allowed to pick up passengers
in Hawaii and deposit them in Los Angeles, thus protecting the
domestic HNL-LAX route from competition.

A common market does have some benefits- like cabotage and like EU SIM
card/plans for visitors working all over the EU without extra charges
instead of just in the country of sale.
--
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

 

[Rick C]

On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 4:09:13 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:

When my dad from Germany was here he said \"A lot of stuff in America
looks so kludged and temporary\"

That from someone from a country that lost a war in no small part because they built war machines that were too complex and over built so that they could not build enough of them to do the job. A country who\'s grasp of technology has been shown to be less than they believed on numerous occasions.

Yeah, we make technology that is temporary because ultimately, all technology is temporary. Ask the German solar industry. They can explain temporary to you.

--

Rick C.

+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Rick C]

On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 10:34:25 PM UTC-4, jjhu...@gmail.com wrote:

I makes no sense to me why a generator that uses gasoline for emergency situations would be used. Most stabilizer products I am familiar with specify 12-18 months without deterioration of the gasoline. I\'ve cleaned/rebuilt too many carbs that have suffered damage from gasoline contaminates and varnish. Anyway, Murphies law will show up just when you need the generator the most. The crop of Chinese carbs prevalent on a lot of generators (especially the big box types) are more sensitive to bad gasoline and their plastic or rubber parts deteriorate faster than higher quality carbs.
Get a dual fuel carb, run the generator on propane/NG, no deterioration, burns cleaner, albeit with slightly less power. Store a couple of 40lbl propane tanks and you are good to go. If you run out of propane, switch to gasoline in a pinch.
Yes, you can do all the monthly startup and checks but not necessary if a propane fuel is used - still a good idea to check it say 1-2 times a year, depending on circumstances. Beats 12 times a year.

I always wonder how easy it would be to get propane in a pinch. Gasoline will always be provided because it is needed for so many things. Propane is used by a very few for heating and even fewer for electrical generation.

--

Rick C.

++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Joerg]

On 12/16/21 6:45 AM, Rick C wrote:

On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 4:09:13 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
When my dad from Germany was here he said \"A lot of stuff in America
looks so kludged and temporary\"

That from someone from a country that lost a war in no small part because they built war machines that were too complex and over built so that they could not build enough of them to do the job. A country who\'s grasp of technology has been shown to be less than they believed on numerous occasions.

Have you driven a Mercedes Benz lately? Or at any point in life?

Yeah, we make technology that is temporary because ultimately, all technology is temporary. Ask the German solar industry. They can explain temporary to you.

Same here. There\'s hardly any US source of solar panels left. Sadly.
Same in Europe.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

 

[Joerg]

On 12/15/21 9:25 PM, Spehro Pefhany wrote:

On Tue, 14 Dec 2021 12:24:44 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com
wrote:



Yes! Or better yet, design an analog controller that works like it used
to be on pellet stoves.

Or you could go the other way and use something like this on a
Raspberry Pi:

https://pypi.org/project/PyScada/

;-) All sorts of fun with Django and React, cascading style sheets
to get the perfect layouts for remote access on different mobile
devices, and some interesting problems with guaranteeing safe shutdown
of the Debian file system.

Yes, that is a good idea. However, for me that would mean a huge
learning curve. Making an analog controller is easy for me.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/