Bit rot in micro controllers?...

[Lasse Langwadt Christensen]

torsdag den 16. december 2021 kl. 06.25.56 UTC+1 skrev Spehro Pefhany:

On Tue, 14 Dec 2021 12:24:44 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com
wrote:


Yes! Or better yet, design an analog controller that works like it used
to be on pellet stoves.
Or you could go the other way and use something like this on a
Raspberry Pi:

https://pypi.org/project/PyScada/

;-) All sorts of fun with Django and React, cascading style sheets
to get the perfect layouts for remote access on different mobile
devices, and some interesting problems with guaranteeing safe shutdown
of the Debian file system.

afaik ext4 is pretty robust against powerloss

a cheap PLC might be a simpler choice

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Thu, 16 Dec 2021 10:39:31 -0800 (PST)) it happened Lasse
Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote in
<9c43cd33-acee-4e51-9b3b-a76624f3cc93n@googlegroups.com>:

torsdag den 16. december 2021 kl. 06.25.56 UTC+1 skrev Spehro Pefhany:
On Tue, 14 Dec 2021 12:24:44 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com
wrote:


Yes! Or better yet, design an analog controller that works like it used
to be on pellet stoves.
Or you could go the other way and use something like this on a
Raspberry Pi:

https://pypi.org/project/PyScada/

;-) All sorts of fun with Django and React, cascading style sheets
to get the perfect layouts for remote access on different mobile
devices, and some interesting problems with guaranteeing safe shutdown
of the Debian file system.

afaik ext4 is pretty robust against powerloss

a cheap PLC might be a simpler choice

Just a Microchip PIC
Rest is overkill

People should learn asm

Away with all those high level blurb languages.
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html

 

[Joerg]

On 12/15/21 6:34 PM, Three Jeeps wrote:

On Tuesday, December 14, 2021 at 6:59:59 PM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:
On 12/14/21 7:25 AM, Phil Hobbs wrote:

[...]

... so I got a 5 kW one
from Amazon and hired an electrician to put in a transfer switch and an
external feed inlet. I had power by day 3, but it cost about $1500 all
told. (Plus now I have to mess around with gas stabilizer and battery
tenders.)

That monster must consume gasoline to no end. I bought a 1700W/2000W
inverter generator. It suffices to drive the big kitchen fridge/freezer
and a small chest freezer downstairs. Plus the swamp cooler and a few
little items such as lights or a TV set. It modulates the engine RPM
according to load, spends much of its time in mid-idle and can run
aboyut four hours on a galloin of gasoline.

I use the stabilizer for storage purposes that is supposed to last two
years. I also start the generator about once a month, to make sure the
carburetor doesn\'t gunk up and to have peace of mind that it will start
if needed.
--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
I makes no sense to me why a generator that uses gasoline for emergency situations would be used.

Because it is the least expensive

... Most stabilizer products I am familiar with specify 12-18 months without deterioration of the gasoline. I\'ve cleaned/rebuilt too many carbs that have suffered damage from gasoline contaminates and varnish. Anyway, Murphies law will show up just when you need the generator the most. The crop of Chinese carbs prevalent on a lot of generators (especially the big box types) are more sensitive to bad gasoline and their plastic or rubber parts deteriorate faster than higher quality carbs.
Get a dual fuel carb, run the generator on propane/NG, no deterioration, burns cleaner, albeit with slightly less power. Store a couple of 40lbl propane tanks and you are good to go. If you run out of propane, switch to gasoline in a pinch.
Yes, you can do all the monthly startup and checks but not necessary if a propane fuel is used - still a good idea to check it say 1-2 times a year, depending on circumstances. Beats 12 times a year.

Propane has become very expensive where we live. Plus then you either
need to buy/keep/store bottles unless you have a specialist plumb in a
tap and pipe (more $$$). Then try to find a dual fuel carburetor that
fits your particular generator. AFAIR ours uses a 80ccm Yamaha-style engine.

Anyhow, I don\'t mind starting it once every 1-2 months. Just have to be
careful schlepping it, on account of my bad lower back. I like to test
important things regularly so I can be fairly sure they will work when
needed. Smoke detectors, generator, CO detectors, brake lights on cars,
sprinkler systems, et cetera. It\'s just a checklist routine.

Having a hybrid like you do would be cool. However, given that I drive
less than 2000mi/year (the remainder is spent on one of my bicycles) it
would not make financial sense at all to spend lots of money on a hybrid.

Some day I might get a LiFePO4 battery so it can run stuff a bit longer
than a UPS can. Or plumb one of those into a UPS.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

 

[Rick C]

On Thursday, December 16, 2021 at 2:26:41 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:

On 12/16/21 6:45 AM, Rick C wrote:
On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 4:09:13 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
When my dad from Germany was here he said \"A lot of stuff in America
looks so kludged and temporary\"

That from someone from a country that lost a war in no small part because they built war machines that were too complex and over built so that they could not build enough of them to do the job. A country who\'s grasp of technology has been shown to be less than they believed on numerous occasions..

Have you driven a Mercedes Benz lately? Or at any point in life?

Have you driven a Lexus? That is a nice car. So is my Tesla. I don\'t want to hear any trash talk from Euro-trash.

Yeah, we make technology that is temporary because ultimately, all technology is temporary. Ask the German solar industry. They can explain temporary to you.
Same here. There\'s hardly any US source of solar panels left. Sadly.
Same in Europe.

So clearly no basis for trash talk from you.

--

Rick C.

--- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Joerg]

On 12/15/21 7:00 PM, Don Y wrote:
> On 12/15/2021 7:34 PM, Three Jeeps wrote:

[...]

Most stabilizer products I am familiar with
specify 12-18 months without deterioration of the gasoline.  I\'ve
cleaned/rebuilt too many carbs that have suffered damage from gasoline
contaminates and varnish.

The same diesel approach applies to gasoline powered gensets.  Don\'t store
fuel *in* the genset.  Move it from cans into the vehicle(s) and/or genset
as needed.

With the correct version of StaBil I kep my generator fueled. That way
it\'s always ready to go. Three pulls on the cord ... vrooom.

 Anyway,  Murphies law will show up just when you
need the generator the most. The crop of Chinese carbs prevalent on a
lot of
generators (especially the big box types) are more sensitive to bad
gasoline
and their plastic or rubber parts deteriorate faster than higher quality
carbs.

Carburetors aren\'t hard to clean/rebuild.  But, you\'d not want to
be doing it when you *needed* the genset.  Sort of like having to drive
to the store to buy batteries for your flashlight during a power outage...

Get a dual fuel carb, run the generator on propane/NG, no
deterioration, burns cleaner, albeit with slightly less power.

Exactly.

 Store a
couple of 40lbl propane tanks  and you are good to go.

The downside is *storing* the fuel JUST for use in the genset.
If, instead, you look at it as an energy source and plan on *using*
it, as such, then it\'s not (a hopefully unused!) \"overhead\".

Gasoline and/or diesel can only be used in engines -- gensets or
vehicles.  Propane can be used to fire a small, single-burner
\"camp stove\" in a prolonged outage *or* if you have to bugout.
Whether that is a small 16oz \"torch canister\" or a big tank,
the fuel is the same.  The act that it can *also* power the genset
is a win-win.

A 5G can of gas/diesel isn\'t going to help you prepare meals!

Sure it can.

https://www.heatso.com/webasto-diesel-stove-top-x100-with-installation-kit/

https://landcruisingadventure.com/the-gasoline-coleman-stove-2/

For a smaller appetite:

https://www.amazon.com/Ochine-Portable-Gasoline-Backpacking-Emergency/dp/B08YNQXXMB

But as I said before, real men cook over wood fire

[...]

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

 

[Joerg]

On 12/16/21 11:53 AM, Rick C wrote:

On Thursday, December 16, 2021 at 2:26:41 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 12/16/21 6:45 AM, Rick C wrote:
On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 4:09:13 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
When my dad from Germany was here he said \"A lot of stuff in America
looks so kludged and temporary\"

That from someone from a country that lost a war in no small part because they built war machines that were too complex and over built so that they could not build enough of them to do the job. A country who\'s grasp of technology has been shown to be less than they believed on numerous occasions.

Have you driven a Mercedes Benz lately? Or at any point in life?

Have you driven a Lexus? That is a nice car. So is my Tesla. I don\'t want to hear any trash talk from Euro-trash.

JFTR I am an American. WRT to world war technology you might want to
brush up on \"Operation Paperclip\". There was a reason for that program.

Yeah, we make technology that is temporary because ultimately, all technology is temporary. Ask the German solar industry. They can explain temporary to you.
Same here. There\'s hardly any US source of solar panels left. Sadly.
Same in Europe.

So clearly no basis for trash talk from you.

Fact is, the electric infrastructure in this here high-tech region of
the US is the pits. 5-10 power outages a year is something I\'ve only
heard of from people that lived in countries like India, Pakistan or
Romania.

Our last outage was ... <drum roll> ... yesterday. All it took was a
little wind. Pathetic.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

 

[Rick C]

On Thursday, December 16, 2021 at 4:07:43 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:

On 12/16/21 11:53 AM, Rick C wrote:
On Thursday, December 16, 2021 at 2:26:41 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 12/16/21 6:45 AM, Rick C wrote:
On Wednesday, December 15, 2021 at 4:09:13 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
When my dad from Germany was here he said \"A lot of stuff in America
looks so kludged and temporary\"

That from someone from a country that lost a war in no small part because they built war machines that were too complex and over built so that they could not build enough of them to do the job. A country who\'s grasp of technology has been shown to be less than they believed on numerous occasions.

Have you driven a Mercedes Benz lately? Or at any point in life?

Have you driven a Lexus? That is a nice car. So is my Tesla. I don\'t want to hear any trash talk from Euro-trash.

JFTR I am an American. WRT to world war technology you might want to
brush up on \"Operation Paperclip\". There was a reason for that program.

Yeah, we make technology that is temporary because ultimately, all technology is temporary. Ask the German solar industry. They can explain temporary to you.
Same here. There\'s hardly any US source of solar panels left. Sadly.
Same in Europe.

So clearly no basis for trash talk from you.

Fact is, the electric infrastructure in this here high-tech region of
the US is the pits. 5-10 power outages a year is something I\'ve only
heard of from people that lived in countries like India, Pakistan or
Romania.

Our last outage was ... <drum roll> ... yesterday. All it took was a
little wind. Pathetic.

When a region has high rates of power outages like they do here in Puerto Rico, I figure it\'s on the users who don\'t make it a priority to push on the politicians to push on the utilities. Here it seems to be a bit cultural as they\'ve put up with it for so long that everyone feels it is pointless to make the effort. What\'s your excuse?

--

Rick C.

-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[David Brown]

On 16/12/2021 21:41, Rick C wrote:

On Thursday, December 16, 2021 at 4:07:43 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:

Fact is, the electric infrastructure in this here high-tech region of
the US is the pits. 5-10 power outages a year is something I\'ve only
heard of from people that lived in countries like India, Pakistan or
Romania.

Our last outage was ... <drum roll> ... yesterday. All it took was a
little wind. Pathetic.

When a region has high rates of power outages like they do here in Puerto Rico, I figure it\'s on the users who don\'t make it a priority to push on the politicians to push on the utilities. Here it seems to be a bit cultural as they\'ve put up with it for so long that everyone feels it is pointless to make the effort. What\'s your excuse?

You think that politicians have a significant influence on the utility
companies? You think that users (i.e., the public) can have a
significant influence on politicians outside of election season? That
would be a nice world, but it\'s a bit unrealistic.

(I don\'t have a more helpful answer, unfortunately, but I just can\'t see
\"pushing your politicians\" as being a serious way to reduce power outages.)

 

[Joerg]

On 12/16/21 12:49 PM, David Brown wrote:

On 16/12/2021 21:41, Rick C wrote:
On Thursday, December 16, 2021 at 4:07:43 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:

Fact is, the electric infrastructure in this here high-tech region of
the US is the pits. 5-10 power outages a year is something I\'ve only
heard of from people that lived in countries like India, Pakistan or
Romania.

Our last outage was ... <drum roll> ... yesterday. All it took was a
little wind. Pathetic.

When a region has high rates of power outages like they do here in Puerto Rico, I figure it\'s on the users who don\'t make it a priority to push on the politicians to push on the utilities. Here it seems to be a bit cultural as they\'ve put up with it for so long that everyone feels it is pointless to make the effort. What\'s your excuse?


You think that politicians have a significant influence on the utility
companies? You think that users (i.e., the public) can have a
significant influence on politicians outside of election season? That
would be a nice world, but it\'s a bit unrealistic.

People do but many voters are not very smart. The cause here in CA is
rather clear. A lot of extreme \"green\" requirements were foisted on
utilities by incompetent or corrupt politicians. The result was neglect
of the grid, high prices and frequent power shortages because they had
to close fossil-fuel or nuclear plants.

(I don\'t have a more helpful answer, unfortunately, but I just can\'t see
\"pushing your politicians\" as being a serious way to reduce power outages.)

Vote in better ones. But most voters just aren\'t smart enough for that.
As had been very obvious when they didn\'t recall our governor who
reportedly had some strange deals going on with a utility (the one with
all the outgages and fires). When reporters questioned him about it in
front of cameras his solution was to walk away. Voters should have
walked him out of office.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

 

[Don Y]

On 12/16/2021 1:01 PM, Joerg wrote:

On 12/15/21 7:00 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 12/15/2021 7:34 PM, Three Jeeps wrote:

[...]

Most stabilizer products I am familiar with
specify 12-18 months without deterioration of the gasoline. I\'ve
cleaned/rebuilt too many carbs that have suffered damage from gasoline
contaminates and varnish.

The same diesel approach applies to gasoline powered gensets. Don\'t store
fuel *in* the genset. Move it from cans into the vehicle(s) and/or genset
as needed.

With the correct version of StaBil I kep my generator fueled. That way it\'s
always ready to go. Three pulls on the cord ... vrooom.

If you have to worry about outages that often, you\'ve a bigger problem
to address!

The lights often \"blink off\" for a second or two, here (likely switching?).
Hence the reason for the 15 UPSs scattered around the house (so each of
the workstations/appliances that *might* be on has a backup available).

[UPSs are inexpensive -- $5]

Anyway, Murphies law will show up just when you
need the generator the most. The crop of Chinese carbs prevalent on a lot of
generators (especially the big box types) are more sensitive to bad gasoline
and their plastic or rubber parts deteriorate faster than higher quality
carbs.

Carburetors aren\'t hard to clean/rebuild. But, you\'d not want to
be doing it when you *needed* the genset. Sort of like having to drive
to the store to buy batteries for your flashlight during a power outage...

Get a dual fuel carb, run the generator on propane/NG, no
deterioration, burns cleaner, albeit with slightly less power.

Exactly.

Store a
couple of 40lbl propane tanks and you are good to go.

The downside is *storing* the fuel JUST for use in the genset.
If, instead, you look at it as an energy source and plan on *using*
it, as such, then it\'s not (a hopefully unused!) \"overhead\".

Gasoline and/or diesel can only be used in engines -- gensets or
vehicles. Propane can be used to fire a small, single-burner
\"camp stove\" in a prolonged outage *or* if you have to bugout.
Whether that is a small 16oz \"torch canister\" or a big tank,
the fuel is the same. The act that it can *also* power the genset
is a win-win.

A 5G can of gas/diesel isn\'t going to help you prepare meals!

Sure it can.

https://www.heatso.com/webasto-diesel-stove-top-x100-with-installation-kit/

https://landcruisingadventure.com/the-gasoline-coleman-stove-2/

For a smaller appetite:

https://www.amazon.com/Ochine-Portable-Gasoline-Backpacking-Emergency/dp/B08YNQXXMB

So, now you have to acquire and maintain another device just for
that contingency.

We want to reduce the *number* of devices that we have on hand and
to maintain as \"end of life\" is much closer than \"rest of life\"
(and the survivor having to clean up the cruft that has been
accumulated over a lifetime would be an unkind imposition!)

> But as I said before, real men cook over wood fire

I guess if you have lots of time to waste building a fire to
prepare a meal...

I have far more interesting ways to spend my time than stoking
a wood fire just to make a meal that I can consume in 10 minutes.
[SWMBO is a slower eater but also has no desire to waste time
\"eating\" when there are more exciting things she could be doing]

I did the Boy Scout stint as a kid. No need to prove that I can
*still* live on a frozen lake without access to wood/fire, water, etc.

[I\'m also extremely confident in my masculinity without having to
\"prove\" it to myself or others. But, hey, I\'ve got a straight razor
you can use to shave if you\'d prefer that...]

 

[Joerg]

On 12/16/21 1:33 PM, Don Y wrote:

On 12/16/2021 1:01 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 12/15/21 7:00 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 12/15/2021 7:34 PM, Three Jeeps wrote:

[...]

Most stabilizer products I am familiar with
specify 12-18 months without deterioration of the gasoline.  I\'ve
cleaned/rebuilt too many carbs that have suffered damage from gasoline
contaminates and varnish.

The same diesel approach applies to gasoline powered gensets.  Don\'t
store
fuel *in* the genset.  Move it from cans into the vehicle(s) and/or
genset
as needed.

With the correct version of StaBil I kep my generator fueled. That way
it\'s always ready to go. Three pulls on the cord ... vrooom.

If you have to worry about outages that often, you\'ve a bigger problem
to address!

Ask the voters, only they can really fix it. _If_ they would wisen up. I
only have one vote, not enough.

We have 5-10 outages per year. Some last 15mins, some half a day, some
longer. Problem is, you never know. Like the one yesterday when I ran
the cords and started the generator. 10 minutes later power was back.
Not trusting it I kept things running for 20min beyond that. You just
never know so the drill is to get emergency power started the minute
regular power fails.

The really nasty ones are where they can\'t get it done right and power
comes back partially. A pump motor or compressor stalling out and then
sitting at 60% of rated voltage but full 60Hz ain\'t going to be happy
about that and might burn out.

The lights often \"blink off\" for a second or two, here (likely switching?).
Hence the reason for the 15 UPSs scattered around the house (so each of
the workstations/appliances that *might* be on has a backup available).

[UPSs are inexpensive -- $5]

They cost a little more, starting at $50 for a small one. Provided you
want a new one and not a castaway with a shot battery that will cost
almost as much to replace as a new UPS.

[...]

A 5G can of gas/diesel isn\'t going to help you prepare meals!

Sure it can.

https://www.heatso.com/webasto-diesel-stove-top-x100-with-installation-kit/


https://landcruisingadventure.com/the-gasoline-coleman-stove-2/

For a smaller appetite:

https://www.amazon.com/Ochine-Portable-Gasoline-Backpacking-Emergency/dp/B08YNQXXMB


So, now you have to acquire and maintain another device just for
that contingency.

I simply commented regarding, quote, \"A 5G can of gas/diesel isn\'t going
to help you prepare meals!\". Because that isn\'t true.

Hardcore longhaul offroaders will do very well with one of those stoves
if they don\'t want to build a fire every night. Because then they do not
have to carry yet another kind of fuel on the trip but can simply use
their vehicle fuel. Either from canisters or from the vehicle\'s tank.

Personally I wouldn\'t need it because I am very much used to cooking
over wood fire.

We want to reduce the *number* of devices that we have on hand ...

So what is your rationale behind buying a propane stove and then having
to buy yet another item, a propane bottle? Or rather two because you
don\'t want to run out of it when the expensive filet mignons are 50% cooked.

It is better to buy a gasoline or diesel stove instead if you have a
vehicle that uses such fuel. That is smart because it _reduces_ the
number of devices on hand.

... and
to maintain as \"end of life\" is much closer than \"rest of life\"
(and the survivor having to clean up the cruft that has been
accumulated over a lifetime would be an unkind imposition!)

What would we be without all our cruft?

But as I said before, real men cook over wood fire

I guess if you have lots of time to waste building a fire to
prepare a meal...

I have far more interesting ways to spend my time than stoking
a wood fire just to make a meal that I can consume in 10 minutes.

I guess you have never even tried. In the winter (like now) it takes me
about 60sec from zero to a blazing bed of coals. I have a steel pot and
safety lids, steal an amount of coals from the wood stove, the quantity
being commensurate with the meal. \"Instant start\". In summer I build a
pile in the old Weber, light it, do regular chores near it and watch it
out of a corner of my eyes. 10-15mins later I put down whatever I was
working on and start cooking. Many times I forego the chore altogether
and read the paper instead. Or answer emails. Or so some ham radio. So
where exactly is the time waste?

[SWMBO is a slower eater but also has no desire to waste time
\"eating\" when there are more exciting things she could be doing]

We prefer French style eating where every meal is a celebration and not
a quick culinary gulp. Although I must confess that I tend to be a
\"hyper-diner\", especially when it tastes really good.

I did the Boy Scout stint as a kid.  No need to prove that I can
*still* live on a frozen lake without access to wood/fire, water, etc.

IMO it is good to keep up such skills. Plus for me it\'s fun. Case in
point: More than once have I been at a house where someone became
frustrated getting a wood stove or an outdoor fireplace going. I took
over, rebuilt the pile a bit -> match -> whoosh -> fire.

[I\'m also extremely confident in my masculinity without having to
\"prove\" it to myself or others.  But, hey, I\'ve got a straight razor
you can use to shave if you\'d prefer that...]

Didn\'t see the smiley?

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

 

[server]

On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 18:48:01 GMT, Jan Panteltje
<pNaOnStPeAlMtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 16 Dec 2021 10:39:31 -0800 (PST)) it happened Lasse
Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote in
9c43cd33-acee-4e51-9b3b-a76624f3cc93n@googlegroups.com>:

torsdag den 16. december 2021 kl. 06.25.56 UTC+1 skrev Spehro Pefhany:
On Tue, 14 Dec 2021 12:24:44 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com
wrote:


Yes! Or better yet, design an analog controller that works like it used
to be on pellet stoves.
Or you could go the other way and use something like this on a
Raspberry Pi:

https://pypi.org/project/PyScada/

;-) All sorts of fun with Django and React, cascading style sheets
to get the perfect layouts for remote access on different mobile
devices, and some interesting problems with guaranteeing safe shutdown
of the Debian file system.

afaik ext4 is pretty robust against powerloss

a cheap PLC might be a simpler choice

Just a Microchip PIC
Rest is overkill

People should learn asm

Away with all those high level blurb languages.
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html

Ladder logic.



--

I yam what I yam - Popeye

 

[Phil Hobbs]

Three Jeeps wrote:

On Tuesday, December 14, 2021 at 10:03:04 PM UTC-5, Phil Hobbs wrote:
Phil Hobbs wrote:
Joerg wrote:
On 12/14/21 7:25 AM, Phil Hobbs wrote:
Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
mandag den 13. december 2021 kl. 18.28.33 UTC+1 skrev Joe Gwinn:
On Mon, 13 Dec 2021 15:15:52 +1100, Sylvia Else <syl...@email.invalid
wrote:
On 13-Dec-21 2:01 pm, Phil Hobbs wrote:
jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sat, 11 Dec 2021 11:51:11 -0800, Joerg
ne...@analogconsultants.com
wrote:

Just repaired our fridge when, according to Murphy\'s law, the next
appliance became shaky. Our pellet stove has twice refused to
be turned
off. Unfortunately, instead of analog it\'s all buttons that are
operated
via port pins of a micro controller. Pressing several of those
willy-nilly made the on/off button work, at least long enough
to turn it
off. When the circuit board is cold the botton always works but
not when
warm after running the stove overnight.

I don\'t want a kitchen stove that is uP controlled. That\'s a
horrible
environment for cheap electronics. If you want to buy a non-digital
kitchen range, expect to pay a large multiple over the GE-type
electronic junk. Wolf, Viking, Bosch do good brass.

Our house came with a double oven. For some reason, one section has
electronic controls and one has the classic pneumatic-mechanical
thermostat. Guess which one still works.



We have a separate gas cooktop, which has electronic ignition and
works
perfectly after 11 years. (We re-did the kitchen 11 hears ago.)

Ditto for a wall-mounted double oven. The oven runs a separate
fan to
keep the electronics cool, and has also worked fine that long.

Dishwashers are the real horror for electronics--we\'ve gone through
three of them in that time.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

I had a gas oven that used electronics as a thermostat, with the gas
turned on and off, rather than up and down. If it failed to reignite
after about three tries, it just gave up, without so much as a
warning beep.

So one could come back after an hour and not only discover that the
contents weren\'t cooked, one didn\'t even know how long it had been
on for.

Also, why would one want a gas oven that requires electric power to
operate so that it cannot be used during a power outage?
We had those for a while here in the US. When I was recently looking
for a replacement stove (the old one having outlived its manufacturer
by a few decades, and spares were lo longer available), one question
is if one can use the stove without mains power. As you might
imagine, there was one correct answer, and a multitude of wrong
answers -- Next!

The Thermador I bought has two burners that require mains power, but
the rest do not, but do require a manual lighter. The oven and
broiler also don\'t work without mains power. But four stovetop
burners suffices.

This was a recent change - some friends nearby also have a similar
Thermador, and it is useless without mains power.

last time I remember we had a powerout was something like 20 years
ago and lasted a few hours



You don\'t have actual weather, though. We get Atlantic hurricanes.
We had an outage 5 or so years ago that lasted (iirc) 8 days.

I got on the Con Edison website, and mentally divided the number of
affected customers by the number being restored per hour, and got a
number like 10 days.

There were no generators to be had locally by then, ...


During an outage I called a store for something else and before the
clerk that picked up the phone even said her name she proclaimed \"We
do not have any generators in stock\".


... so I got a 5 kW
one from Amazon and hired an electrician to put in a transfer switch
and an external feed inlet. I had power by day 3, but it cost about
$1500 all told. (Plus now I have to mess around with gas stabilizer
and battery tenders.)


That monster must consume gasoline to no end.

Nah, under
half
a gallon per hour while running the furnace, fridges,
freezer, and computers. It runs toasters and microwaves fine, but tends
to trip if people forget and use the garbage disposal.
(it runs overnight on one 4-gallon tankful)

I bought a 1700W/2000W
inverter generator. It suffices to drive the big kitchen
fridge/freezer and a small chest freezer downstairs. Plus the swamp
cooler and a few little items such as lights or a TV set. It modulates
the engine RPM according to load, spends much of its time in mid-idle
and can run aboyut four hours on a galloin of gasoline.

Depends a lot on the load. Our outages tend to be in the winter.

I use the stabilizer for storage purposes that is supposed to last two
years. I also start the generator about once a month, to make sure the
carburetor doesn\'t gunk up and to have peace of mind that it will
start if needed.

Letting it run dry is usually enough.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs


I recently got a 2021 Toyota Highlander hybrid. It has a 1800W pure sine wave inverter that is connected to the very large 1.9 kWh battery.
For emergency use, I have a cable from the Highlander to the gas furnace in the house. Will run the gas furnace with no problem.
The neat thing about the Highlander, as well as most hybrids, is that the computer that monitors the battery when external loads are seen, it will start the engine to charge the battery, the turn it off when charged. If the Highlander has a full tank of gas, I calculated that it could run the furnace for at least a week with outside temps around 30 degrees F, given the particulars of my house insulation and high efficiency furnace.
I really like diverse redundant solutions....
j

Agreed. However a dippy little 1.8 kW would run our place on _average_,
but good luck using the dishwasher or the microwave. Even with 4.5 kW,
the garbage disposal will trip the genny breaker.

The gas gen cost $500 or so, which makes mild abuse less of a worry, and
as a bonus I can drive off to work without making the pipes freeze at
home.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs


--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

 

[Phil Hobbs]

Joerg wrote:

On 12/15/21 7:00 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 12/15/2021 7:34 PM, Three Jeeps wrote:

[...]

Most stabilizer products I am familiar with
specify 12-18 months without deterioration of the gasoline.  I\'ve
cleaned/rebuilt too many carbs that have suffered damage from gasoline
contaminates and varnish.

The same diesel approach applies to gasoline powered gensets.  Don\'t
store
fuel *in* the genset.  Move it from cans into the vehicle(s) and/or
genset
as needed.


With the correct version of StaBil I kep my generator fueled. That way
it\'s always ready to go. Three pulls on the cord ... vrooom.


 Anyway,  Murphies law will show up just when you
need the generator the most. The crop of Chinese carbs prevalent on a
lot of
generators (especially the big box types) are more sensitive to bad
gasoline
and their plastic or rubber parts deteriorate faster than higher quality
carbs.

Carburetors aren\'t hard to clean/rebuild.  But, you\'d not want to
be doing it when you *needed* the genset.  Sort of like having to drive
to the store to buy batteries for your flashlight during a power
outage...

Get a dual fuel carb, run the generator on propane/NG, no
deterioration, burns cleaner, albeit with slightly less power.

Exactly.

Assuming that your outages are sufficiently short. One trip to the gas
station gets me enough fuel to run the house for a couple of days. That
one time, we went through about 50 gallons before the outage was over.
The main thing is to store the gas in your car\'s tank, where turnover
keeps it fresh.

 Store a
couple of 40lbl propane tanks  and you are good to go.

80 lbs of propane has less energy than one tank of gas, and is a lot
less convenient.

The downside is *storing* the fuel JUST for use in the genset.
If, instead, you look at it as an energy source and plan on *using*
it, as such, then it\'s not (a hopefully unused!) \"overhead\".

Gasoline and/or diesel can only be used in engines -- gensets or
vehicles.  Propane can be used to fire a small, single-burner
\"camp stove\" in a prolonged outage *or* if you have to bugout.
Whether that is a small 16oz \"torch canister\" or a big tank,
the fuel is the same.  The act that it can *also* power the genset
is a win-win.

A 5G can of gas/diesel isn\'t going to help you prepare meals!

You can run Coleman stoves and lanterns on car gas. We\'ve done that
occasionally.

Sure it can.

https://www.heatso.com/webasto-diesel-stove-top-x100-with-installation-kit/

https://landcruisingadventure.com/the-gasoline-coleman-stove-2/

For a smaller appetite:

https://www.amazon.com/Ochine-Portable-Gasoline-Backpacking-Emergency/dp/B08YNQXXMB


But as I said before, real men cook over wood fire

[...]

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

 

[Rick C]

On Thursday, December 16, 2021 at 9:22:34 PM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 18:48:01 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaOnSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 16 Dec 2021 10:39:31 -0800 (PST)) it happened Lasse
Langwadt Christensen <lang...@fonz.dk> wrote in
9c43cd33-acee-4e51...@googlegroups.com>:

torsdag den 16. december 2021 kl. 06.25.56 UTC+1 skrev Spehro Pefhany:
On Tue, 14 Dec 2021 12:24:44 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com
wrote:


Yes! Or better yet, design an analog controller that works like it used
to be on pellet stoves.
Or you could go the other way and use something like this on a
Raspberry Pi:

https://pypi.org/project/PyScada/

;-) All sorts of fun with Django and React, cascading style sheets
to get the perfect layouts for remote access on different mobile
devices, and some interesting problems with guaranteeing safe shutdown
of the Debian file system.

afaik ext4 is pretty robust against powerloss

a cheap PLC might be a simpler choice

Just a Microchip PIC
Rest is overkill

People should learn asm

Away with all those high level blurb languages.
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html



Ladder logic.

\"Plastics\"

--

Rick C.

+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Rick C]

On Thursday, December 16, 2021 at 10:12:02 PM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:

Joerg wrote:
On 12/15/21 7:00 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 12/15/2021 7:34 PM, Three Jeeps wrote:

[...]

Most stabilizer products I am familiar with
specify 12-18 months without deterioration of the gasoline. I\'ve
cleaned/rebuilt too many carbs that have suffered damage from gasoline
contaminates and varnish.

The same diesel approach applies to gasoline powered gensets. Don\'t
store
fuel *in* the genset. Move it from cans into the vehicle(s) and/or
genset
as needed.


With the correct version of StaBil I kep my generator fueled. That way
it\'s always ready to go. Three pulls on the cord ... vrooom.


Anyway, Murphies law will show up just when you
need the generator the most. The crop of Chinese carbs prevalent on a
lot of
generators (especially the big box types) are more sensitive to bad
gasoline
and their plastic or rubber parts deteriorate faster than higher quality
carbs.

Carburetors aren\'t hard to clean/rebuild. But, you\'d not want to
be doing it when you *needed* the genset. Sort of like having to drive
to the store to buy batteries for your flashlight during a power
outage...

Get a dual fuel carb, run the generator on propane/NG, no
deterioration, burns cleaner, albeit with slightly less power.

Exactly.

Assuming that your outages are sufficiently short. One trip to the gas
station gets me enough fuel to run the house for a couple of days. That
one time, we went through about 50 gallons before the outage was over.
The main thing is to store the gas in your car\'s tank, where turnover
keeps it fresh.

If the gas station has power. You have isolated outages that affect just one neighborhood. My place in Virginia had an outage that lasted two weeks when the remnants of a hurricane came through many years ago. Around DC they had similar outages and raised holy hell. Much of the problem was trees taking down power lines. Today you can\'t have a tree within 10 foot of a power line without being trimmed. People responded to the failure of the power companies and the government took action.

Or you can resign yourself to your fate like many in Puerto Rico. People are still made about what happened following Maria here, but it doesn\'t look like anything has changed except I\'ve heard they are raising the cost of electricity. Oh, that\'s just like California!

--

Rick C.

++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Don Y]

On 12/16/2021 3:02 PM, Joerg wrote:

The lights often \"blink off\" for a second or two, here (likely switching?).
Hence the reason for the 15 UPSs scattered around the house (so each of
the workstations/appliances that *might* be on has a backup available).

[UPSs are inexpensive -- $5]

They cost a little more, starting at $50 for a small one. Provided you want a
new one and not a castaway with a shot battery that will cost almost as much to
replace as a new UPS.

That\'s likely true for the small/cheap \"modified sine wave\"
inverters. Once you step up to true sine wave and higher
power levels, the cost of the batteries becomes a smaller
portion of the total cost. Thus, giving value to \"surplus\"
units (as ANY unit will need new batteries, eventually).

My smallest units are 750VA. Most are 1500VA. A couple in the 2200VA
range and one at 5000VA. The last nominally uses 8 12V 50AHr
batteries as its backup power source.

As many firms discard UPSs when its time to replace batteries
(because they have a purchasing agent locating replacements
instead of someone who understands the actual \"need\"), you can
find these rather easily (second hand stores, auctions, etc.).

My 2200VA units were actually NIB -- with functional battery packs!
Someone just decided they weren\'t \"necessary enough\" to keep on
hand. And, when it\'s not *your* (personal) money, folks tend not
to think twice about discards. :-/

A 5G can of gas/diesel isn\'t going to help you prepare meals!

Sure it can.

https://www.heatso.com/webasto-diesel-stove-top-x100-with-installation-kit/

https://landcruisingadventure.com/the-gasoline-coleman-stove-2/

For a smaller appetite:

https://www.amazon.com/Ochine-Portable-Gasoline-Backpacking-Emergency/dp/B08YNQXXMB



So, now you have to acquire and maintain another device just for
that contingency.


I simply commented regarding, quote, \"A 5G can of gas/diesel isn\'t going to
help you prepare meals!\". Because that isn\'t true.

Hardcore longhaul offroaders will do very well with one of those stoves if they
don\'t want to build a fire every night. Because then they do not have to carry
yet another kind of fuel on the trip but can simply use their vehicle fuel.
Either from canisters or from the vehicle\'s tank.

Personally I wouldn\'t need it because I am very much used to cooking over wood
fire.

When we assembled our bug-out-bags, we looked carefully at what
we had on hand and what we could cheaply acquire (the goal is
not to need such a BoB so why throw money at it?)

We already had a charcoal grill so that was the obvious choice for
preparing hot meals at home (shelter-in-place). The charcoal can
be stored outdoors (so no space in the home/garage wasted for that).
It wasn\'t \"highly flammable\" so storing it near the house wasn\'t a
concern, either. To keep it safe from the weather (and creepy crawly
things that might sneak into the bag), we moved it into 5G paint
containers salvaged from one of the routine roof paintings.

But, this isn\'t a practical fuel source if you have to bug out
as it takes a lot of space for the fuel (the charcoal grill can be
\"reduced\" to just saving the actual *grill* that sits inside it).

So, we started with a two burner Coleman (white fuel) camp stove.
But, now we have a second fuel to keep on hand. And, if we
had to travel with it, we\'d run the risk of it spilling inside
the vehicle (i.e., any fuel still in the stove\'s \"tank\")

And, we needed a white fuel lantern to capitalize on that fuel
source.

As well as having to keep THAT fuel on hand, just in case.

Note that none of these help with anything other than cooking
(and light).

A *small* genset gave us the ability to keep the freezer cold.
Or, the refrigerator. Or, run the furnace -- or a window
air conditioner. Assuming we were sheltering in place or
just trying to navigate a prolonged outage (common in
Chicagoland but not here -- though we didn\'t yet know that)

A friend suggested diesel -- as he had two diesel trucks.
We settled on gasoline as it allowed us to store the fuel
in the car\'s tank, instead of in a separate container
(which would represent a fire hazard in/around the house).

And, we could throw the genset in the back of any car
if we had to bug out, using the car\'s tank to address any
future fuel needs.

But, you need to drain the genset\'s tank before bringing it into
the car. Either run it dry or move fuel back and forth between
car and generator (and hope you\'re not moving crud/moisture *into*
your transportation device\'s tank in the process!)

Even a small genset is capable of running a single burner on the
electric stovetop. So, we can continue to use the stove while
at home (for the hassle of running an extension cord -- no need
to bother with a transfer switch).

And, if we have to bug out, a small \"hot plate\" gives us
the ability to heat food/water on-the-road!

The small genset grew into a larger one (6500W) as a \"deal\"
presented itself ($350). So, we could keep the freezer, frig,
furnace, room ACbrrr, etc. ALL connected instead of having to
time division multiplex the loads onto the smaller genset.

The hot plate gave way to a \"bottle stove\" (just a burner
with a direct connection to a small propane bottle). And,
the propane was already stored in with the plumbing tools
as I often sweat pipes (replace water heater, add expansion
tank, new hose bibbs, stops for the toilet/sinks, etc.)

Cleaning carburetors got to be annoying. Trivial but
a task that shouldn\'t be necessary. And, no, I don\'t want to
have to run the genset routinely just to keep emptying the
tank. (I don\'t like drawing attention to the fact that
we have alternative power sources as folks have no problem
rationalizing that their LACK of preparation ENTITLES them
to the benefit/use of YOUR foresight!)

So, the next genset will be 8500W, dual fuel. I can keep
a container of propane on the back porch (out of the sun yet
not taking up space IN the house/garage). There are 4 or 5
places where I can get a full tank within 2 miles of here.
Some have large tanks and refill smaller bottles. Others
just sell you a full tank (\"exchange\").

And none of those places requires power be available to
\"run the pumps\".

There tends to be less demand for propane than other fuels
so you likely won\'t deal with long lines of cars queued at a
hardware store/home depot/costco/ace/loews/etc trying to \"gas up\"

But, that size unit is just impractical to haul around
if we have to bug-out. So, we\'ll look for a smaller
dual-fuel unit that I can just toss in the back of the car.
(as I\'d not have to worry about draining its gas tank
to keep it in the vehicle with us!).

This will leave us with:
- charcoal (we\'ve not bought any in 30 years and there is
no cost/risk to keeping what we already have!) for
shelter-in-place meal prep (it\'s easier and attracts
less attention to light a barbeque than fire up the genset!)
It also helps when I have to burn out stumps (I have two
in the front yard that need attention, presently)
- propane for plumbing, \"camp stove\" (usable /in situ/ or
on the road) and \"clean\" genset running both at home and
on the road
- gasoline for transportation and as a backup for the genset
(if there is a sudden rush on the propane suppliers *or*
we\'re traveling and can\'t easily locate a vendor)

We want to reduce the *number* of devices that we have on hand ...

So what is your rationale behind buying a propane stove and then having to buy
yet another item, a propane bottle? Or rather two because you don\'t want to run
out of it when the expensive filet mignons are 50% cooked.

Why would I want to cook filet mignon on a propane stove when I
have an oven that works in the house? Even if I was in the process
of cooking them and *needed* to finish them \"indoors\", I\'d just run
a cable to the oven (and discipline myself not to turn on the
stovetop *and* the broiler at the same time -- unless I knew
the furnace/freezer/frig/etc. wouldn\'t be competing for that
power.)

It is better to buy a gasoline or diesel stove instead if you have a vehicle
that uses such fuel. That is smart because it _reduces_ the number of devices
on hand.

And, similarly, tie yourself to a diesel/gasoline genset, as well?

Where does \"wood burning\" fit into all this?

to maintain as \"end of life\" is much closer than \"rest of life\"
(and the survivor having to clean up the cruft that has been
accumulated over a lifetime would be an unkind imposition!)

What would we be without all our cruft?

Free-er? Personally, I\'m very anxious to rid myself of as
much excess cruft as possible, as soon as possible. SWMBO
would curse me to all Eternity if I dropped dead, tomorrow
(and left her with all this stuff to sort out).

I see more value to \"tools\" than \"devices\". The thinking
being that I already have damn near all of the \"devices\"
I will ever need and if I can preserve the ability to
fix them, then I\'m set.

But, even tools can be \"pruned\". I just tossed an ARB and
freq counter: \"When was the last time I used either of those?\"
And, how many \"spare\" \'scope probes do I need to keep?
How many TVs? Monitors? PCs?

Yeah, it\'s really convenient to be able to drag out a spare
computer (or laptop), install an OS and use it to test a
piece of software without having to worry about getting it on
and off a *real* workstation. Or, swap out a monitor that
goes on the fritz without having to stop what you are working
on at the time. Or, add another 16 signals to a logic trace
that you\'d not previously thought to be of interest.

But, all of that \"convenience\" comes at a cost -- piles of kit!

But as I said before, real men cook over wood fire

I guess if you have lots of time to waste building a fire to
prepare a meal...

I have far more interesting ways to spend my time than stoking
a wood fire just to make a meal that I can consume in 10 minutes.

I guess you have never even tried. In the winter (like now) it takes me about
60sec from zero to a blazing bed of coals. I have a steel pot and safety lids,
steal an amount of coals from the wood stove, the quantity being commensurate
with the meal.

So, I have to replace our electric stove with a wood burning one?
Instead of just turning the knob to \"high\" and placing the pan
on a burner (or in the oven)?

\"Instant start\". In summer I build a pile in the old Weber,
light it, do regular chores near it and watch it out of a corner of my eyes.
10-15mins later I put down whatever I was working on and start cooking. Many

You missed the point where I was *done* preparing the meal in
those 15 minutes! Tonight\'s steak took me less than that to
prepare -- steak, veggies, salad. You\'re starting to cook
and I\'m starting to *eat*. And, I don\'t have to put the fire
out when I\'m done.

times I forego the chore altogether and read the paper instead. Or answer
emails. Or so some ham radio. So where exactly is the time waste?

[SWMBO is a slower eater but also has no desire to waste time
\"eating\" when there are more exciting things she could be doing]

We prefer French style eating where every meal is a celebration and not a quick
culinary gulp. Although I must confess that I tend to be a \"hyper-diner\",
especially when it tastes really good.

We invest time to prepare meals \"in quantity\" so that they can be
consumed quickly and with little prep/cleanup involved.

I\'ll spend 4 hours making a pair of meatloaves -- and net 20
meals from it. Freeze individual slices (coated with surplus
sauce). Remove from freezer, peel from plastic bag, drop
on plate, microwave for two minutes. Eat. One dirty
plate and one discarded plastic bag.

Or, 12 hours making 4G of marinara/bolognese/pomadora freschi
to freeze for later use (in pasta dishes, a la parmigiana
meals, pizza, etc.)

But, the actual *eating* is limited by how quickly you can chew.

When we have folks over, I prepare items that can be *held*
(steak sandwiches, broiled kielbasa sandwiches, tacos,
\"wraps\", sonoran dogs, jalapeno poppers, etc.) so we can
circulate through the house and yard and \"do things\" other
than being stuck at a table. We all know what we each LOOK
like -- and dinnerware is largely boring -- so no need to
be locked into place staring at each other when there are other
things we can do/explore!

I did the Boy Scout stint as a kid. No need to prove that I can
*still* live on a frozen lake without access to wood/fire, water, etc.

IMO it is good to keep up such skills. Plus for me it\'s fun. Case in point:
More than once have I been at a house where someone became frustrated getting a
wood stove or an outdoor fireplace going. I took over, rebuilt the pile a bit
-> match -> whoosh -> fire.

IME, you don\'t forget such skills -- if you\'ve had to *rely* on them,
in the past. I\'ve not ridden a bicycle in decades -- wanna bet I\'d
have no problem doing so, tomorrow? Likewise, I\'ve not driven a
stick in probably two score years yet would quickly fall back into
the groove. Or, tuck-point a chimney (haven\'t been on a pitched
roof since pre-college)

[I\'m also extremely confident in my masculinity without having to
\"prove\" it to myself or others. But, hey, I\'ve got a straight razor
you can use to shave if you\'d prefer that...]


Didn\'t see the smiley?

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Thu, 16 Dec 2021 17:22:23 -0800) it happened
jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
<3ipnrg5t34hokt9h7oe3g16esbr5i51s93@4ax.com>:

On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 18:48:01 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaOnStPeAlMtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 16 Dec 2021 10:39:31 -0800 (PST)) it happened Lasse
Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote in
9c43cd33-acee-4e51-9b3b-a76624f3cc93n@googlegroups.com>:

torsdag den 16. december 2021 kl. 06.25.56 UTC+1 skrev Spehro Pefhany:
On Tue, 14 Dec 2021 12:24:44 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com
wrote:


Yes! Or better yet, design an analog controller that works like it used
to be on pellet stoves.
Or you could go the other way and use something like this on a
Raspberry Pi:

https://pypi.org/project/PyScada/

;-) All sorts of fun with Django and React, cascading style sheets
to get the perfect layouts for remote access on different mobile
devices, and some interesting problems with guaranteeing safe shutdown
of the Debian file system.

afaik ext4 is pretty robust against powerloss

a cheap PLC might be a simpler choice

Just a Microchip PIC
Rest is overkill

People should learn asm

Away with all those high level blurb languages.
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html




Ladder logic.

Yes I remember the PLC guys where I worked used that,
never used it myself.

But as with all things, if YOU do not know how to do it,
then throwing any language at it will not work either

If I do not know the answer to a question on some subject in English,
then translating the question in <name you language> will not help.

But maybe it will all change:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/12/211213121342.htm

So you train your oven, hit it if it does not do it right
and pet it if OK,
after many iterations it will know by itself ??


It is a strange world really,
Many years ago I made this web page
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/space/mars/index.html
it hold a picture from mars express
https://sci.esa.int/web/mars-express/-/34508-reull-vallis
and a link to Dr Levin\'s site
http://gillevin.com/mars.htm
he was the one from the Viking experiment that tested positive for life on mars.
Reaull Vallis...


Yesterday CNN published this:
https://edition.cnn.com/2021/12/16/world/exomars-water-mars-grand-canyon-scn/index.html
Valles Marineris...

I think, when the Viking experiment was denied, it was the religious forces in the US that denied it
and sabotaged all next mars missions to look at places were life was as unlikely as possible.,
like landing in a volcanic crater.
https://mars.nasa.gov/news/9098/nasas-perseverance-mars-rover-makes-surprising-discoveries/
Because it conflicts with their beliefs...
Life is (IMO) everywhere, just like atoms and other constructs of particles are everywhere
my hope is on China to confirm that.
US is dead and hampered by religious dogma.

So subject change
Some other theories (insights) I had was also confirmed this week.
That is really rare..
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/12/211215204054.htm
about how oil formed, just condensed atmosphere, it is everywhere.

And to make the turn back to \'trickety, 2 days ago my 250 Ah 12V lithium power pack arrived from China
no idea why no import taxes this time, maybe sender payed it, it is on test for capacity now.
With a power converter you could run your oven on it for some time.
Let\'s say to cover the next mains outage for example.
Came with charger, nice LCD display....
Or on the boat to a deserted island when ByeThen starts nuking China and Russia ...


>I yam what I yam - Popeye

You know who I am, you stared at the sun, I am the one who likes changing from nothing to one\' - Leonard Cohen

 

[Martin Brown]

On 16/12/2021 20:49, David Brown wrote:

On 16/12/2021 21:41, Rick C wrote:
On Thursday, December 16, 2021 at 4:07:43 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:

Fact is, the electric infrastructure in this here high-tech region of
the US is the pits. 5-10 power outages a year is something I\'ve only
heard of from people that lived in countries like India, Pakistan or
Romania.

Our last outage was ... <drum roll> ... yesterday. All it took was a
little wind. Pathetic.

It is becoming the same in the UK. We used to have reliable electricity
supply but a combination of lack of investment and privatisation has led
to a serious lack of infrastructure maintenance so that a stiff breeze
will cause total chaos - especially in the North and Scotland.

Problem is that the distribution companies priorities are:

1. Maximise CEO\'s bonus
2. Maximise share price
3. Maximise dividends to shareholders

Customer service and operational reliability come a distant fourth.

The only thing we can do individually is to have a generator and power
blocks for the iToys (since Apple kit is rather tetchy about taking
charge from non-Apple in car USB chargers). We discovered that the hard
way iPhone was effectively bricked for most of the storm Arwen blackout.

OTOH the night sky was brilliant with no street lamps at all. I could
see the milky way and Andromeda galaxy clearly through thin cloud.

When a region has high rates of power outages like they do here in Puerto Rico, I figure it\'s on the users who don\'t make it a priority to push on the politicians to push on the utilities. Here it seems to be a bit cultural as they\'ve put up with it for so long that everyone feels it is pointless to make the effort. What\'s your excuse?


You think that politicians have a significant influence on the utility
companies? You think that users (i.e., the public) can have a
significant influence on politicians outside of election season? That
would be a nice world, but it\'s a bit unrealistic.

(I don\'t have a more helpful answer, unfortunately, but I just can\'t see
\"pushing your politicians\" as being a serious way to reduce power outages.)

I am going to give it a try since the performance of Northern Powergrid
was piss poor from beginning to end. They even sent me a text saying
\"make other arrangements for tonight power will not be back on until
tomorrow lunchtime at the earliest\" just after power was restored!

I didn\'t get their first message of that sort until the morning after
the night before (arrived 8am). Thank heavens for wood burning stoves!

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[David Brown]

On 17/12/2021 10:57, Martin Brown wrote:

On 16/12/2021 20:49, David Brown wrote:
On 16/12/2021 21:41, Rick C wrote:
On Thursday, December 16, 2021 at 4:07:43 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:

Fact is, the electric infrastructure in this here high-tech region of
the US is the pits. 5-10 power outages a year is something I\'ve only
heard of from people that lived in countries like India, Pakistan or
Romania.

Our last outage was ... <drum roll> ... yesterday. All it took was a
little wind. Pathetic.

It is becoming the same in the UK. We used to have reliable electricity
supply but a combination of lack of investment and privatisation has led
to a serious lack of infrastructure maintenance so that a stiff breeze
will cause total chaos - especially in the North and Scotland.

Problem is that the distribution companies priorities are:

1. Maximise CEO\'s bonus
2. Maximise share price
3. Maximise dividends to shareholders

Customer service and operational reliability come a distant fourth.

I appreciate that - and its a challenge in many countries, and many
aspects of society. Private companies work well for many purposes, but
for nation-wide critical infrastructure, privatisation is insane.
Competition and market forces don\'t work for power grids - it is not as
if you can choose to connect your house to a different company\'s power
grid if the one you have is unreliable!

It is very rare that we have power cuts here in Norway. Anywhere over a
certain size of population (and the limit is not high) has at least two
independent lines coming into the area from different directions. There
were serious cuts in parts inland in the country fairly recently, but
that storm blew down /forests/ (literally leaving them flat), not just a
few trees.

Our grid is run by a single state-owned company. No doubt the CEO is
ridiculously over-paid. But apart from that, it isn\'t run to make a
profit (but not a loss either) - and if it /does/ make a profit, that
goes back to the big melting pot of tax-payers money.