Bit rot in micro controllers?...

[Flyguy]

On Saturday, December 18, 2021 at 9:31:45 AM UTC-8, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

On Sat, 18 Dec 2021 11:52:45 -0500, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:

John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 10:03:47 -0800 (PST), Three Jeeps
jjhu...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, December 17, 2021 at 10:18:05 AM UTC-5, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 08:41:42 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaOnSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 16 Dec 2021 17:22:23 -0800) it happened
jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
3ipnrg5t34hokt9h7...@4ax.com>:

On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 18:48:01 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaOnSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 16 Dec 2021 10:39:31 -0800 (PST)) it happened Lasse
Langwadt Christensen <lang...@fonz.dk> wrote in
9c43cd33-acee-4e51...@googlegroups.com>:

torsdag den 16. december 2021 kl. 06.25.56 UTC+1 skrev Spehro Pefhany:
On Tue, 14 Dec 2021 12:24:44 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com
wrote:


Yes! Or better yet, design an analog controller that works like it used
to be on pellet stoves.
Or you could go the other way and use something like this on a
Raspberry Pi:

https://pypi.org/project/PyScada/

;-) All sorts of fun with Django and React, cascading style sheets
to get the perfect layouts for remote access on different mobile
devices, and some interesting problems with guaranteeing safe shutdown
of the Debian file system.

afaik ext4 is pretty robust against powerloss

a cheap PLC might be a simpler choice

Just a Microchip PIC
Rest is overkill

People should learn asm

Away with all those high level blurb languages.
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html




Ladder logic.

Yes I remember the PLC guys where I worked used that,
never used it myself.

But as with all things, if YOU do not know how to do it,
then throwing any language at it will not work either

LL is not a language; nothing is typed. The model is a diagram of
switches and relay coils, which is very intuitive. There are small
PLCs for roughly $100, with industrial-type inputs and outputs. Not a
bad way to control a simple machine.


John Hudak

12:56 PM (0 minutes ago)


A notation does not have to be typed to be a programming language. There are strongly typed, weakly typed and untyped languages. Then there is static and dynamic typing. Most (all?) assembly languages are untyped and are considered a programming language.
LL does have semantics and syntax. It is considered a visual (graphical) programming language.
J

It doesn\'t use words or letters. Nothing is typed.

Sounds like Labview! <gag, retch
Ladder Logic was invented so factory-floor guys, who used real relays
to interlock and control things, could program PLCs to replace the
relays when they died. It\'s pretty simple and makes sense for that
case.

Sounds like a sensible way to fix a pellet stove without making it
into a giant project that has to be done in freezing weather.
--

I yam what I yam - Popeye

I had a dishwasher that wasn\'t drying the dishes, so I started replacing parts, the heating element (didn\'t actually replace it because the one in the dishwasher checked good), the thermostat, and the control board itself. It worked for a while after replacing the control board, but, then, started acting up again. I finally found a maintenance manual the showed me how to reset the controller by pushing front panel buttons in a particular sequence.. This fixed the problem - for a while. Periodically I have to reset the controller to get it to dry the dishes again. Somewhere in the software it detects a fault in the heater circuit and stops energizing it out of an abundance of caution - but doesn\'t display an error code.

Just the other day our washing machine began acting up (filling with water during a spin-only cycle). I got on the phone with LG tech support and found out how to reset it. This involved unplugging the machine and holding the Power button down, then plugging it back in. This fixed the problem.

I will probably do a Youtube video on this because it could save people an expensive service call.

 

[Joerg]

On 12/17/21 3:38 AM, David Brown wrote:

On 16/12/2021 21:59, Joerg wrote:
On 12/16/21 12:49 PM, David Brown wrote:
On 16/12/2021 21:41, Rick C wrote:
On Thursday, December 16, 2021 at 4:07:43 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:

Fact is, the electric infrastructure in this here high-tech region of
the US is the pits. 5-10 power outages a year is something I\'ve only
heard of from people that lived in countries like India, Pakistan or
Romania.

Our last outage was ... <drum roll> ... yesterday. All it took was a
little wind. Pathetic.

When a region has high rates of power outages like they do here in
Puerto Rico, I figure it\'s on the users who don\'t make it a priority
to push on the politicians to push on the utilities.  Here it seems
to be a bit cultural as they\'ve put up with it for so long that
everyone feels it is pointless to make the effort.  What\'s your excuse?


You think that politicians have a significant influence on the utility
companies?  You think that users (i.e., the public) can have a
significant influence on politicians outside of election season?  That
would be a nice world, but it\'s a bit unrealistic.


People do but many voters are not very smart. The cause here in CA is
rather clear. A lot of extreme \"green\" requirements were foisted on
utilities by incompetent or corrupt politicians. The result was neglect
of the grid, high prices and frequent power shortages because they had
to close fossil-fuel or nuclear plants.


(I don\'t have a more helpful answer, unfortunately, but I just can\'t see
\"pushing your politicians\" as being a serious way to reduce power
outages.)


Vote in better ones. But most voters just aren\'t smart enough for that.
As had been very obvious when they didn\'t recall our governor who
reportedly had some strange deals going on with a utility (the one with
all the outgages and fires). When reporters questioned him about it in
front of cameras his solution was to walk away. Voters should have
walked him out of office.


Do you understand how representational democracies work?

Yes, I even took a test about that (to become a US citizen). It works a
bit differently here than in Norway. From your reply-to domain I assume
that is where you live.

... Except in a
few extreme cases, elections are not decided on individual issues - you
vote for the politicians or parties that you think will do the best job
overall.

Different here. In contrast to many other countries the US has ballot
measures, weher voters actually do decideon individual issues.

... No matter how smart the voters (and let\'s face it, few of them
are particularly smart and there is no test for basic political
knowledge to qualify for voting), you are always balancing issues. You
might disagree entirely with a party in how they stand on electricity
generation and distribution - yet vote for it because of their stance on
taxes, health, education, or whatever. And you don\'t get to choose the
candidates either - if the party that you think should be running the
place has fielded an idiot in your area, tough. (Democracy is, after
all, the worst possible system - apart from all the rest.)

Again, different in the US. You can actually vote for, say, a Republican
president but then for a Democrat representative. You can even vote in
(or out) the local sheriff here. Same for the attorney general. The
party does not decide who that will be, the voters do. I assume you
aren\'t an American and then this might sound unusual but that\'s the way
it is.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

 

[Joerg]

On 12/16/21 8:49 PM, Don Y wrote:

On 12/16/2021 3:02 PM, Joerg wrote:
The lights often \"blink off\" for a second or two, here (likely
switching?).
Hence the reason for the 15 UPSs scattered around the house (so each of
the workstations/appliances that *might* be on has a backup available).

[UPSs are inexpensive -- $5]

They cost a little more, starting at $50 for a small one. Provided you
want a new one and not a castaway with a shot battery that will cost
almost as much to replace as a new UPS.

That\'s likely true for the small/cheap \"modified sine wave\"
inverters.  Once you step up to true sine wave and higher
power levels, the cost of the batteries becomes a smaller
portion of the total cost.  Thus, giving value to \"surplus\"
units (as ANY unit will need new batteries, eventually).

I have no need for such a fancy and expensive inverter. Except in the
generator, where true-sine was included.

My smallest units are 750VA.  Most are 1500VA.  A couple in the 2200VA
range and one at 5000VA.  The last nominally uses 8 12V 50AHr
batteries as its backup power source.

As many firms discard UPSs when its time to replace batteries
(because they have a purchasing agent locating replacements
instead of someone who understands the actual \"need\"), you can
find these rather easily (second hand stores, auctions, etc.).

My 2200VA units were actually NIB -- with functional battery packs!
Someone just decided they weren\'t \"necessary enough\" to keep on
hand.  And, when it\'s not *your* (personal) money, folks tend not
to think twice about discards.  :-/

I have no need for something this big. From my computers I demand that
they are outage-proof or \"Africa-proof\". And they are (all Linux).

That leaves things such as the wood stove fans. They consume 20-45W
depending on settings and should never be stopped after a reload. The
UPS carries them over the time it takes to get the generator going.
Modified sine is good enough for that.

A 5G can of gas/diesel isn\'t going to help you prepare meals!

Sure it can.

https://www.heatso.com/webasto-diesel-stove-top-x100-with-installation-kit/


https://landcruisingadventure.com/the-gasoline-coleman-stove-2/

For a smaller appetite:

https://www.amazon.com/Ochine-Portable-Gasoline-Backpacking-Emergency/dp/B08YNQXXMB




So, now you have to acquire and maintain another device just for
that contingency.


I simply commented regarding, quote, \"A 5G can of gas/diesel isn\'t
going to help you prepare meals!\". Because that isn\'t true.

Hardcore longhaul offroaders will do very well with one of those
stoves if they don\'t want to build a fire every night. Because then
they do not have to carry yet another kind of fuel on the trip but can
simply use their vehicle fuel. Either from canisters or from the
vehicle\'s tank.

Personally I wouldn\'t need it because I am very much used to cooking
over wood fire.

When we assembled our bug-out-bags, we looked carefully at what
we had on hand and what we could cheaply acquire (the goal is
not to need such a BoB so why throw money at it?)

We already had a charcoal grill so that was the obvious choice for
preparing hot meals at home (shelter-in-place).  The charcoal can
be stored outdoors (so no space in the home/garage wasted for that).
It wasn\'t \"highly flammable\" so storing it near the house wasn\'t a
concern, either.  To keep it safe from the weather (and creepy crawly
things that might sneak into the bag), we moved it into 5G paint
containers salvaged from one of the routine roof paintings.

But, this isn\'t a practical fuel source if you have to bug out
as it takes a lot of space for the fuel (the charcoal grill can be
\"reduced\" to just saving the actual *grill* that sits inside it).

So, we started with a two burner Coleman (white fuel) camp stove.
But, now we have a second fuel to keep on hand.  And, if we
had to travel with it, we\'d run the risk of it spilling inside
the vehicle (i.e., any fuel still in the stove\'s \"tank\")

And, we needed a white fuel lantern to capitalize on that fuel
source.

As well as having to keep THAT fuel on hand, just in case.

Note that none of these help with anything other than cooking
(and light).

This is where wood fire skills come in very handy. I do not need a stove
or charcoal to prepare a decent meal, just a fire. If it has to be small
and tidy a little \"disposable\" hibachi grill of the sub-$10 class from a
supermarket is fine. On vacation trips we cooked for weeks on these and
at the end gave them to other freshly arrived campers.

A *small* genset gave us the ability to keep the freezer cold.
Or, the refrigerator.  Or, run the furnace -- or a window
air conditioner.  Assuming we were sheltering in place or
just trying to navigate a prolonged outage (common in
Chicagoland but not here -- though we didn\'t yet know that)

Our 1700/2000W inverter generator can supply both fridge and freezer,
plus some other stuff. Even in Eco-mode which is what I generally use
unless I need it for the operation of a major power tool such as the
electric chain saw.

A friend suggested diesel -- as he had two diesel trucks.
We settled on gasoline as it allowed us to store the fuel
in the car\'s tank, instead of in a separate container
(which would represent a fire hazard in/around the house).

And, we could throw the genset in the back of any car
if we had to bug out, using the car\'s tank to address any
future fuel needs.

But, you need to drain the genset\'s tank before bringing it into
the car.  Either run it dry or move fuel back and forth between
car and generator (and hope you\'re not moving crud/moisture *into*
your transportation device\'s tank in the process!)

On modern ones you don\'t. Ours has seal lever which prevents spillage.
Just have to wait half an hour or so after turning it off (and remember)
to slip that lever to shut the tank vent. If you forget to turn it on
the generator will stall after a few minutes.

Even a small genset is capable of running a single burner on the
electric stovetop.  So, we can continue to use the stove while
at home (for the hassle of running an extension cord -- no need
to bother with a transfer switch).

IMO that\'s a serious waste of the precisous resource gasoline. I\'d never
do that.

And, if we have to bug out, a small \"hot plate\" gives us
the ability to heat food/water on-the-road!

The small genset grew into a larger one (6500W) as a \"deal\"
presented itself ($350).  So, we could keep the freezer, frig,
furnace, room ACbrrr, etc. ALL connected instead of having to
time division multiplex the loads onto the smaller genset.

The hot plate gave way to a \"bottle stove\" (just a burner
with a direct connection to a small propane bottle).  And,
the propane was already stored in with the plumbing tools
as I often sweat pipes (replace water heater, add expansion
tank, new hose bibbs, stops for the toilet/sinks, etc.)

Cleaning carburetors got to be annoying.  Trivial but
a task that shouldn\'t be necessary.  And, no, I don\'t want to
have to run the genset routinely just to keep emptying the
tank.

No need to empty the tank. We have StaBil in there so the fuel lasts two
years. Well, in PG&E land it never gets a chance to last that long.

I just run it once a month or so to flush new gas through the carburtor.
Works. Mostly I combine that with a chore such as cutting some collected
wood to stove length. A few minutes is all it takes. As I said, I am a
believer in preparedness and for that you\'ve got to test such stuff at
regular intervals.

... (I don\'t like drawing attention to the fact that
we have alternative power sources as folks have no problem
rationalizing that their LACK of preparation ENTITLES them
to the benefit/use of YOUR foresight!)

Weird neighborhood. Nobody thinks that way out here. They only call upon
me in a pinch because they know I am an engineer. Like when someone
can\'t figure out how to open their garage door without electricity. No
kidding.

So, the next genset will be 8500W, dual fuel.

And the one after that? Maybe 20kW?

... I can keep
a container of propane on the back porch (out of the sun yet
not taking up space IN the house/garage).  There are 4 or 5
places where I can get a full tank within 2 miles of here.
Some have large tanks and refill smaller bottles.  Others
just sell you a full tank (\"exchange\").

If you think portable (as in hand-carry) propane tank, a 8.5kW generator
will slurp that dry in a jiffy.

And none of those places requires power be available to
\"run the pumps\".

Here, some wouldn\'t even be able to operate their cash register without
power.

There tends to be less demand for propane than other fuels
so you likely won\'t deal with long lines of cars queued at a
hardware store/home depot/costco/ace/loews/etc trying to \"gas up\"

But, that size unit is just impractical to haul around
if we have to bug-out.  So, we\'ll look for a smaller
dual-fuel unit that I can just toss in the back of the car.
(as I\'d not have to worry about draining its gas tank
to keep it in the vehicle with us!).

Look at the new inverter generators. Many have a gas tank vent shut-off
lever.

This will leave us with:
- charcoal (we\'ve not bought any in 30 years and there is
  no cost/risk to keeping what we already have!) for
  shelter-in-place meal prep  (it\'s easier and attracts
  less attention to light a barbeque than fire up the genset!)
  It also helps when I have to burn out stumps (I have two
  in the front yard that need attention, presently)
- propane for plumbing, \"camp stove\" (usable /in situ/ or
  on the road) and \"clean\" genset running both at home and
  on the road
- gasoline for transportation and as a backup for the genset
  (if there is a sudden rush on the propane suppliers *or*
  we\'re traveling and can\'t easily locate a vendor)

Looks like you are planning to equip an army

We want to reduce the *number* of devices that we have on hand ...

So what is your rationale behind buying a propane stove and then
having to buy yet another item, a propane bottle? Or rather two
because you don\'t want to run out of it when the expensive filet
mignons are 50% cooked.

Why would I want to cook filet mignon on a propane stove when I
have an oven that works in the house?  Even if I was in the process
of cooking them and *needed* to finish them \"indoors\", I\'d just run
a cable to the oven (and discipline myself not to turn on the
stovetop *and* the broiler at the same time -- unless I knew
the furnace/freezer/frig/etc. wouldn\'t be competing for that
power.)

With a massive generator you can do that but you still have to make sure
that one doesn\'t run out of fuel in the middle of the action. I love
simplicity, hence cooking over wood fire. Tastes better, too. My
favorite wood for beef is manzanita.

It is better to buy a gasoline or diesel stove instead if you have a
vehicle that uses such fuel. That is smart because it _reduces_ the
number of devices on hand.

And, similarly, tie yourself to a diesel/gasoline genset, as well?

Yes, that would make sense. You aren\'t \"tied\", it simply enables you to
use the same for for many purposes.

Where does \"wood burning\" fit into all this?

Two jobs here:

1. Keeping the beer and the food cold (fridge) -> generator.

2. Cooking meals -> wood fire.

3. Emergency comms (in my case ham radio) -> batteries and generator

Anything else is lower priority. As long as one does not run out of beer

to maintain as \"end of life\" is much closer than \"rest of life\"
(and the survivor having to clean up the cruft that has been
accumulated over a lifetime would be an unkind imposition!)

What would we be without all our cruft?

Free-er?  Personally, I\'m very anxious to rid myself of as
much excess cruft as possible, as soon as possible.  SWMBO
would curse me to all Eternity if I dropped dead, tomorrow
(and left her with all this stuff to sort out).

Very much the same here

I see more value to \"tools\" than \"devices\".  The thinking
being that I already have damn near all of the \"devices\"
I will ever need and if I can preserve the ability to
fix them, then I\'m set.

Yup.

But, even tools can be \"pruned\".  I just tossed an ARB and
freq counter:  \"When was the last time I used either of those?\"
And, how many \"spare\" \'scope probes do I need to keep?
How many TVs?  Monitors?  PCs?

I should do the same but I built my frequency counter 45 years ago
myself, from scratch, when each of the dozens of TTL chips in there cost
several Dollars. Hard to toss but I know it has to be done.

Yeah, it\'s really convenient to be able to drag out a spare
computer (or laptop), install an OS and use it to test a
piece of software without having to worry about getting it on
and off a *real* workstation.  Or, swap out a monitor that
goes on the fritz without having to stop what you are working
on at the time.  Or, add another 16 signals to a logic trace
that you\'d not previously thought to be of interest.

But, all of that \"convenience\" comes at a cost -- piles of kit!

Agree.

But as I said before, real men cook over wood fire

I guess if you have lots of time to waste building a fire to
prepare a meal...

I have far more interesting ways to spend my time than stoking
a wood fire just to make a meal that I can consume in 10 minutes.

I guess you have never even tried. In the winter (like now) it takes
me about 60sec from zero to a blazing bed of coals. I have a steel pot
and safety lids, steal an amount of coals from the wood stove, the
quantity being commensurate with the meal.

So, I have to replace our electric stove with a wood burning one?

No, just make a fire in the yard and cook.

Instead of just turning the knob to \"high\" and placing the pan
on a burner (or in the oven)?

That requires a big generator to run. I prefer a lower energy footprint.

\"Instant start\". In summer I build a pile in the old Weber, light it,
do regular chores near it and watch it out of a corner of my eyes.
10-15mins later I put down whatever I was working on and start
cooking. Many

You missed the point where I was *done* preparing the meal in
those 15 minutes!  Tonight\'s steak took me less than that to
prepare -- steak, veggies, salad.  You\'re starting to cook
and I\'m starting to *eat*.

Our meals take a bit longer to prepare. Bake bread, steam veggies, bean
dish, other stuff that has to simmer.

... And, I don\'t have to put the fire out when I\'m done.

I don\'t either. The lid of the Weber has vents that can be shut. Same
for the bottom. I takes about two seconds to \"turn it off\". Then the
remaining wood snuffs out and can be used again the next day.

times I forego the chore altogether and read the paper instead. Or
answer emails. Or so some ham radio. So where exactly is the time waste?

[SWMBO is a slower eater but also has no desire to waste time
\"eating\" when there are more exciting things she could be doing]

We prefer French style eating where every meal is a celebration and
not a quick culinary gulp. Although I must confess that I tend to be a
\"hyper-diner\", especially when it tastes really good.

We invest time to prepare meals \"in quantity\" so that they can be
consumed quickly and with little prep/cleanup involved.

I\'ll spend 4 hours making a pair of meatloaves -- and net 20
meals from it.  Freeze individual slices (coated with surplus
sauce).  Remove from freezer, peel from plastic bag, drop
on plate, microwave for two minutes.  Eat.  One dirty
plate and one discarded plastic bag.

But then the meat loaves need to be cooked for a long time. That\'s where
wood fires shine.

Or, 12 hours making 4G of marinara/bolognese/pomadora freschi
to freeze for later use (in pasta dishes, a la parmigiana
meals, pizza, etc.)

But, the actual *eating* is limited by how quickly you can chew.

Well, here we seem to have different philosophies. We prefer to have a
large variety of foods for dinner. Other than pizza (but with different
toppings) nothing ever repeats itself over the course of 1-2 months.

When we have folks over, I prepare items that can be *held*
(steak sandwiches, broiled kielbasa sandwiches, tacos,
\"wraps\", sonoran dogs, jalapeno poppers, etc.) so we can
circulate through the house and yard and \"do things\" other
than being stuck at a table.  We all know what we each LOOK
like -- and dinnerware is largely boring -- so no need to
be locked into place staring at each other when there are other
things we can do/explore!

I like to stand around the barbecue with guests and solve all the
political problems of our country

No Monday-morning-quarterbacking though because none of us is interested
in ballgames.

I did the Boy Scout stint as a kid.  No need to prove that I can
*still* live on a frozen lake without access to wood/fire, water, etc.

IMO it is good to keep up such skills. Plus for me it\'s fun. Case in
point: More than once have I been at a house where someone became
frustrated getting a wood stove or an outdoor fireplace going. I took
over, rebuilt the pile a bit -> match -> whoosh -> fire.

IME, you don\'t forget such skills -- if you\'ve had to *rely* on them,
in the past.  I\'ve not ridden a bicycle in decades -- wanna bet I\'d
have no problem doing so, tomorrow? ...

Sure, but come with me on the El Dorado Trail and you will very likely
crash. This is what happened to a friend who thought this way, that he
knows how to ride a bicycle. Some rock shifted and he got hurt quite
badly. That\'s the only bikeable route to Placerville and it requires
fairly good and fresh muscle memory.

[...]

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 18/12/21 17:46, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

On Sat, 18 Dec 2021 17:20:11 +0000, Tom Gardner
spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

On 18/12/21 16:52, Phil Hobbs wrote:
John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 10:03:47 -0800 (PST), Three Jeeps
jjhudak4@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, December 17, 2021 at 10:18:05 AM UTC-5,
jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 08:41:42 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaOnSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 16 Dec 2021 17:22:23 -0800) it happened
jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
3ipnrg5t34hokt9h7...@4ax.com>:

On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 18:48:01 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaOnSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 16 Dec 2021 10:39:31 -0800 (PST)) it happened Lasse
Langwadt Christensen <lang...@fonz.dk> wrote in
9c43cd33-acee-4e51...@googlegroups.com>:

torsdag den 16. december 2021 kl. 06.25.56 UTC+1 skrev Spehro Pefhany:
On Tue, 14 Dec 2021 12:24:44 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com
wrote:


Yes! Or better yet, design an analog controller that works like it used
to be on pellet stoves.
Or you could go the other way and use something like this on a
Raspberry Pi:

https://pypi.org/project/PyScada/

;-) All sorts of fun with Django and React, cascading style sheets
to get the perfect layouts for remote access on different mobile
devices, and some interesting problems with guaranteeing safe shutdown
of the Debian file system.

afaik ext4 is pretty robust against powerloss

a cheap PLC might be a simpler choice

Just a Microchip PIC
Rest is overkill

People should learn asm

Away with all those high level blurb languages.
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html




Ladder logic.

Yes I remember the PLC guys where I worked used that,
never used it myself.

But as with all things, if YOU do not know how to do it,
then throwing any language at it will not work either

LL is not a language; nothing is typed. The model is a diagram of
switches and relay coils, which is very intuitive. There are small
PLCs for roughly $100, with industrial-type inputs and outputs. Not a
bad way to control a simple machine.


John Hudak

12:56 PM (0 minutes ago)


A notation does not have to be typed to be a programming language.  There are
strongly typed, weakly typed and untyped languages. Then there is static  and
dynamic typing.  Most (all?) assembly languages are untyped and are
considered a programming language.
LL does have semantics and syntax. It is considered a visual (graphical)
programming language.
J

It doesn\'t use words or letters. Nothing is typed.

Sounds like Labview!  <gag, retch

I haven\'t used ladder logic, but when I looked at it it seemed
to be typical of domain specific languages (DSLs): strange but
perfectly adequate for common simple applications. But if you
try to go beyond the undefined and invisible boundary and you\'ll
feel like you\'re falling off a cliff.

I imagine all sorts of kludges have been added to basic ladder
logic to try to extend its range. Such additions usually end up
as incomprehensible cancerous growths.

Time-delay relays are included, but old wired systems had pneumatic or
electronic td relays too. But LL can get hairy if pushed too far, with
analog functions and PID controllers and such. But fine for
bang-banging some solenoids and motors and such. The industrial-level
i/o of a PLC is nice.

I once recommended that a controller based on pneumatic
logic (2000psi, IIRC) should not be replaced with
microcontrollers.

Introducing electricity to unmanned offshore oil/gas platforms
raises a whole lot of new failure modes

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 18/12/21 17:31, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

On Sat, 18 Dec 2021 11:52:45 -0500, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 10:03:47 -0800 (PST), Three Jeeps
jjhudak4@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, December 17, 2021 at 10:18:05 AM UTC-5, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 08:41:42 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaOnSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 16 Dec 2021 17:22:23 -0800) it happened
jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
3ipnrg5t34hokt9h7...@4ax.com>:

On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 18:48:01 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaOnSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 16 Dec 2021 10:39:31 -0800 (PST)) it happened Lasse
Langwadt Christensen <lang...@fonz.dk> wrote in
9c43cd33-acee-4e51...@googlegroups.com>:

torsdag den 16. december 2021 kl. 06.25.56 UTC+1 skrev Spehro Pefhany:
On Tue, 14 Dec 2021 12:24:44 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com
wrote:


Yes! Or better yet, design an analog controller that works like it used
to be on pellet stoves.
Or you could go the other way and use something like this on a
Raspberry Pi:

https://pypi.org/project/PyScada/

;-) All sorts of fun with Django and React, cascading style sheets
to get the perfect layouts for remote access on different mobile
devices, and some interesting problems with guaranteeing safe shutdown
of the Debian file system.

afaik ext4 is pretty robust against powerloss

a cheap PLC might be a simpler choice

Just a Microchip PIC
Rest is overkill

People should learn asm

Away with all those high level blurb languages.
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html




Ladder logic.

Yes I remember the PLC guys where I worked used that,
never used it myself.

But as with all things, if YOU do not know how to do it,
then throwing any language at it will not work either

LL is not a language; nothing is typed. The model is a diagram of
switches and relay coils, which is very intuitive. There are small
PLCs for roughly $100, with industrial-type inputs and outputs. Not a
bad way to control a simple machine.


John Hudak

12:56 PM (0 minutes ago)


A notation does not have to be typed to be a programming language. There are strongly typed, weakly typed and untyped languages. Then there is static and dynamic typing. Most (all?) assembly languages are untyped and are considered a programming language.
LL does have semantics and syntax. It is considered a visual (graphical) programming language.
J

It doesn\'t use words or letters. Nothing is typed.

Sounds like Labview! <gag, retch


Ladder Logic was invented so factory-floor guys, who used real relays
to interlock and control things, could program PLCs to replace the
relays when they died. It\'s pretty simple and makes sense for that
case.

Sounds like a sensible way to fix a pellet stove without making it
into a giant project that has to be done in freezing weather.

.... especially when rugged interfaces are beneficial.

 

[server]

On Sat, 18 Dec 2021 22:15:53 +0000, Tom Gardner
<spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

On 18/12/21 17:46, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sat, 18 Dec 2021 17:20:11 +0000, Tom Gardner
spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

On 18/12/21 16:52, Phil Hobbs wrote:
John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 10:03:47 -0800 (PST), Three Jeeps
jjhudak4@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, December 17, 2021 at 10:18:05 AM UTC-5,
jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 08:41:42 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaOnSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 16 Dec 2021 17:22:23 -0800) it happened
jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
3ipnrg5t34hokt9h7...@4ax.com>:

On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 18:48:01 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaOnSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 16 Dec 2021 10:39:31 -0800 (PST)) it happened Lasse
Langwadt Christensen <lang...@fonz.dk> wrote in
9c43cd33-acee-4e51...@googlegroups.com>:

torsdag den 16. december 2021 kl. 06.25.56 UTC+1 skrev Spehro Pefhany:
On Tue, 14 Dec 2021 12:24:44 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com
wrote:


Yes! Or better yet, design an analog controller that works like it used
to be on pellet stoves.
Or you could go the other way and use something like this on a
Raspberry Pi:

https://pypi.org/project/PyScada/

;-) All sorts of fun with Django and React, cascading style sheets
to get the perfect layouts for remote access on different mobile
devices, and some interesting problems with guaranteeing safe shutdown
of the Debian file system.

afaik ext4 is pretty robust against powerloss

a cheap PLC might be a simpler choice

Just a Microchip PIC
Rest is overkill

People should learn asm

Away with all those high level blurb languages.
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html




Ladder logic.

Yes I remember the PLC guys where I worked used that,
never used it myself.

But as with all things, if YOU do not know how to do it,
then throwing any language at it will not work either

LL is not a language; nothing is typed. The model is a diagram of
switches and relay coils, which is very intuitive. There are small
PLCs for roughly $100, with industrial-type inputs and outputs. Not a
bad way to control a simple machine.


John Hudak

12:56 PM (0 minutes ago)


A notation does not have to be typed to be a programming language.  There are
strongly typed, weakly typed and untyped languages. Then there is static  and
dynamic typing.  Most (all?) assembly languages are untyped and are
considered a programming language.
LL does have semantics and syntax. It is considered a visual (graphical)
programming language.
J

It doesn\'t use words or letters. Nothing is typed.

Sounds like Labview!  <gag, retch

I haven\'t used ladder logic, but when I looked at it it seemed
to be typical of domain specific languages (DSLs): strange but
perfectly adequate for common simple applications. But if you
try to go beyond the undefined and invisible boundary and you\'ll
feel like you\'re falling off a cliff.

I imagine all sorts of kludges have been added to basic ladder
logic to try to extend its range. Such additions usually end up
as incomprehensible cancerous growths.

Time-delay relays are included, but old wired systems had pneumatic or
electronic td relays too. But LL can get hairy if pushed too far, with
analog functions and PID controllers and such. But fine for
bang-banging some solenoids and motors and such. The industrial-level
i/o of a PLC is nice.

I once recommended that a controller based on pneumatic
logic (2000psi, IIRC) should not be replaced with
microcontrollers.

Introducing electricity to unmanned offshore oil/gas platforms
raises a whole lot of new failure modes

I designed the throttle and engine room controls for the navy\'s LHA
ships. They couldn\'t find people to maintain them so they ripped it
all out and went to pneumatics.



--

I yam what I yam - Popeye

 

[Lasse Langwadt Christensen]

lørdag den 18. december 2021 kl. 23.15.59 UTC+1 skrev Tom Gardner:

On 18/12/21 17:46, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sat, 18 Dec 2021 17:20:11 +0000, Tom Gardner
spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

On 18/12/21 16:52, Phil Hobbs wrote:
John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 10:03:47 -0800 (PST), Three Jeeps
jjhu...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, December 17, 2021 at 10:18:05 AM UTC-5,
jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 08:41:42 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaOnSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 16 Dec 2021 17:22:23 -0800) it happened
jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
3ipnrg5t34hokt9h7...@4ax.com>:

On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 18:48:01 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaOnSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 16 Dec 2021 10:39:31 -0800 (PST)) it happened Lasse
Langwadt Christensen <lang...@fonz.dk> wrote in
9c43cd33-acee-4e51...@googlegroups.com>:

torsdag den 16. december 2021 kl. 06.25.56 UTC+1 skrev Spehro Pefhany:
On Tue, 14 Dec 2021 12:24:44 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com
wrote:


Yes! Or better yet, design an analog controller that works like it used
to be on pellet stoves.
Or you could go the other way and use something like this on a
Raspberry Pi:

https://pypi.org/project/PyScada/

;-) All sorts of fun with Django and React, cascading style sheets
to get the perfect layouts for remote access on different mobile
devices, and some interesting problems with guaranteeing safe shutdown
of the Debian file system.

afaik ext4 is pretty robust against powerloss

a cheap PLC might be a simpler choice

Just a Microchip PIC
Rest is overkill

People should learn asm

Away with all those high level blurb languages.
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html




Ladder logic.

Yes I remember the PLC guys where I worked used that,
never used it myself.

But as with all things, if YOU do not know how to do it,
then throwing any language at it will not work either

LL is not a language; nothing is typed. The model is a diagram of
switches and relay coils, which is very intuitive. There are small
PLCs for roughly $100, with industrial-type inputs and outputs. Not a
bad way to control a simple machine.


John Hudak

12:56 PM (0 minutes ago)


A notation does not have to be typed to be a programming language. There are
strongly typed, weakly typed and untyped languages. Then there is static and
dynamic typing. Most (all?) assembly languages are untyped and are
considered a programming language.
LL does have semantics and syntax. It is considered a visual (graphical)
programming language.
J

It doesn\'t use words or letters. Nothing is typed.

Sounds like Labview! <gag, retch

I haven\'t used ladder logic, but when I looked at it it seemed
to be typical of domain specific languages (DSLs): strange but
perfectly adequate for common simple applications. But if you
try to go beyond the undefined and invisible boundary and you\'ll
feel like you\'re falling off a cliff.

I imagine all sorts of kludges have been added to basic ladder
logic to try to extend its range. Such additions usually end up
as incomprehensible cancerous growths.

Time-delay relays are included, but old wired systems had pneumatic or
electronic td relays too. But LL can get hairy if pushed too far, with
analog functions and PID controllers and such. But fine for
bang-banging some solenoids and motors and such. The industrial-level
i/o of a PLC is nice.
I once recommended that a controller based on pneumatic
logic (2000psi, IIRC) should not be replaced with
microcontrollers.

2000psi ??

where they looking for 5000V microcontrollers too?

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 18/12/21 22:24, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

lørdag den 18. december 2021 kl. 23.15.59 UTC+1 skrev Tom Gardner:
On 18/12/21 17:46, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sat, 18 Dec 2021 17:20:11 +0000, Tom Gardner
spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

On 18/12/21 16:52, Phil Hobbs wrote:
John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 10:03:47 -0800 (PST), Three Jeeps
jjhu...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, December 17, 2021 at 10:18:05 AM UTC-5,
jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 08:41:42 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaOnSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 16 Dec 2021 17:22:23 -0800) it happened
jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
3ipnrg5t34hokt9h7...@4ax.com>:

On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 18:48:01 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaOnSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 16 Dec 2021 10:39:31 -0800 (PST)) it happened Lasse
Langwadt Christensen <lang...@fonz.dk> wrote in
9c43cd33-acee-4e51...@googlegroups.com>:

torsdag den 16. december 2021 kl. 06.25.56 UTC+1 skrev Spehro Pefhany:
On Tue, 14 Dec 2021 12:24:44 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com
wrote:


Yes! Or better yet, design an analog controller that works like it used
to be on pellet stoves.
Or you could go the other way and use something like this on a
Raspberry Pi:

https://pypi.org/project/PyScada/

;-) All sorts of fun with Django and React, cascading style sheets
to get the perfect layouts for remote access on different mobile
devices, and some interesting problems with guaranteeing safe shutdown
of the Debian file system.

afaik ext4 is pretty robust against powerloss

a cheap PLC might be a simpler choice

Just a Microchip PIC
Rest is overkill

People should learn asm

Away with all those high level blurb languages.
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html




Ladder logic.

Yes I remember the PLC guys where I worked used that,
never used it myself.

But as with all things, if YOU do not know how to do it,
then throwing any language at it will not work either

LL is not a language; nothing is typed. The model is a diagram of
switches and relay coils, which is very intuitive. There are small
PLCs for roughly $100, with industrial-type inputs and outputs. Not a
bad way to control a simple machine.


John Hudak

12:56 PM (0 minutes ago)


A notation does not have to be typed to be a programming language. There are
strongly typed, weakly typed and untyped languages. Then there is static and
dynamic typing. Most (all?) assembly languages are untyped and are
considered a programming language.
LL does have semantics and syntax. It is considered a visual (graphical)
programming language.
J

It doesn\'t use words or letters. Nothing is typed.

Sounds like Labview! <gag, retch

I haven\'t used ladder logic, but when I looked at it it seemed
to be typical of domain specific languages (DSLs): strange but
perfectly adequate for common simple applications. But if you
try to go beyond the undefined and invisible boundary and you\'ll
feel like you\'re falling off a cliff.

I imagine all sorts of kludges have been added to basic ladder
logic to try to extend its range. Such additions usually end up
as incomprehensible cancerous growths.

Time-delay relays are included, but old wired systems had pneumatic or
electronic td relays too. But LL can get hairy if pushed too far, with
analog functions and PID controllers and such. But fine for
bang-banging some solenoids and motors and such. The industrial-level
i/o of a PLC is nice.
I once recommended that a controller based on pneumatic
logic (2000psi, IIRC) should not be replaced with
microcontrollers.

2000psi ??

where they looking for 5000V microcontrollers too?

Nothing wrong with a bit of noise immunity

My very limited experience was, gulp, 40 years ago. However,
https://www.mobilehydraulictips.com/smart-use-logic-elements/
contains phrases like
\"The HLE10-CPC is a high-pressure logic element (350 bar / 5075 psi),
normally-closed, pilot-to-close, and features a rated flow of
80 lpm (21.1 gpm).\"

So my memory is in the right ballpark

 

[Lasse Langwadt Christensen]

lørdag den 18. december 2021 kl. 23.33.01 UTC+1 skrev Tom Gardner:

On 18/12/21 22:24, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
lørdag den 18. december 2021 kl. 23.15.59 UTC+1 skrev Tom Gardner:
On 18/12/21 17:46, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sat, 18 Dec 2021 17:20:11 +0000, Tom Gardner
spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

On 18/12/21 16:52, Phil Hobbs wrote:
John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 10:03:47 -0800 (PST), Three Jeeps
jjhu...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, December 17, 2021 at 10:18:05 AM UTC-5,
jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 08:41:42 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaOnSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 16 Dec 2021 17:22:23 -0800) it happened
jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
3ipnrg5t34hokt9h7...@4ax.com>:

On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 18:48:01 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaOnSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 16 Dec 2021 10:39:31 -0800 (PST)) it happened Lasse
Langwadt Christensen <lang...@fonz.dk> wrote in
9c43cd33-acee-4e51...@googlegroups.com>:

torsdag den 16. december 2021 kl. 06.25.56 UTC+1 skrev Spehro Pefhany:
On Tue, 14 Dec 2021 12:24:44 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com
wrote:


Yes! Or better yet, design an analog controller that works like it used
to be on pellet stoves.
Or you could go the other way and use something like this on a
Raspberry Pi:

https://pypi.org/project/PyScada/

;-) All sorts of fun with Django and React, cascading style sheets
to get the perfect layouts for remote access on different mobile
devices, and some interesting problems with guaranteeing safe shutdown
of the Debian file system.

afaik ext4 is pretty robust against powerloss

a cheap PLC might be a simpler choice

Just a Microchip PIC
Rest is overkill

People should learn asm

Away with all those high level blurb languages.
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html




Ladder logic.

Yes I remember the PLC guys where I worked used that,
never used it myself.

But as with all things, if YOU do not know how to do it,
then throwing any language at it will not work either

LL is not a language; nothing is typed. The model is a diagram of
switches and relay coils, which is very intuitive. There are small
PLCs for roughly $100, with industrial-type inputs and outputs. Not a
bad way to control a simple machine.


John Hudak

12:56 PM (0 minutes ago)


A notation does not have to be typed to be a programming language.. There are
strongly typed, weakly typed and untyped languages. Then there is static and
dynamic typing. Most (all?) assembly languages are untyped and are
considered a programming language.
LL does have semantics and syntax. It is considered a visual (graphical)
programming language.
J

It doesn\'t use words or letters. Nothing is typed.

Sounds like Labview! <gag, retch

I haven\'t used ladder logic, but when I looked at it it seemed
to be typical of domain specific languages (DSLs): strange but
perfectly adequate for common simple applications. But if you
try to go beyond the undefined and invisible boundary and you\'ll
feel like you\'re falling off a cliff.

I imagine all sorts of kludges have been added to basic ladder
logic to try to extend its range. Such additions usually end up
as incomprehensible cancerous growths.

Time-delay relays are included, but old wired systems had pneumatic or
electronic td relays too. But LL can get hairy if pushed too far, with
analog functions and PID controllers and such. But fine for
bang-banging some solenoids and motors and such. The industrial-level
i/o of a PLC is nice.
I once recommended that a controller based on pneumatic
logic (2000psi, IIRC) should not be replaced with
microcontrollers.

2000psi ??

where they looking for 5000V microcontrollers too?
Nothing wrong with a bit of noise immunity

My very limited experience was, gulp, 40 years ago. However,
https://www.mobilehydraulictips.com/smart-use-logic-elements/
contains phrases like
\"The HLE10-CPC is a high-pressure logic element (350 bar / 5075 psi),
normally-closed, pilot-to-close, and features a rated flow of
80 lpm (21.1 gpm).\"

So my memory is in the right ballpark

that\'s hydraulics not pneumatics

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 18/12/21 22:37, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

lørdag den 18. december 2021 kl. 23.33.01 UTC+1 skrev Tom Gardner:
On 18/12/21 22:24, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
lørdag den 18. december 2021 kl. 23.15.59 UTC+1 skrev Tom Gardner:
On 18/12/21 17:46, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sat, 18 Dec 2021 17:20:11 +0000, Tom Gardner
spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

On 18/12/21 16:52, Phil Hobbs wrote:
John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 10:03:47 -0800 (PST), Three Jeeps
jjhu...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, December 17, 2021 at 10:18:05 AM UTC-5,
jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 08:41:42 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaOnSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 16 Dec 2021 17:22:23 -0800) it happened
jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
3ipnrg5t34hokt9h7...@4ax.com>:

On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 18:48:01 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaOnSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 16 Dec 2021 10:39:31 -0800 (PST)) it happened Lasse
Langwadt Christensen <lang...@fonz.dk> wrote in
9c43cd33-acee-4e51...@googlegroups.com>:

torsdag den 16. december 2021 kl. 06.25.56 UTC+1 skrev Spehro Pefhany:
On Tue, 14 Dec 2021 12:24:44 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com
wrote:


Yes! Or better yet, design an analog controller that works like it used
to be on pellet stoves.
Or you could go the other way and use something like this on a
Raspberry Pi:

https://pypi.org/project/PyScada/

;-) All sorts of fun with Django and React, cascading style sheets
to get the perfect layouts for remote access on different mobile
devices, and some interesting problems with guaranteeing safe shutdown
of the Debian file system.

afaik ext4 is pretty robust against powerloss

a cheap PLC might be a simpler choice

Just a Microchip PIC
Rest is overkill

People should learn asm

Away with all those high level blurb languages.
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html




Ladder logic.

Yes I remember the PLC guys where I worked used that,
never used it myself.

But as with all things, if YOU do not know how to do it,
then throwing any language at it will not work either

LL is not a language; nothing is typed. The model is a diagram of
switches and relay coils, which is very intuitive. There are small
PLCs for roughly $100, with industrial-type inputs and outputs. Not a
bad way to control a simple machine.


John Hudak

12:56 PM (0 minutes ago)


A notation does not have to be typed to be a programming language. There are
strongly typed, weakly typed and untyped languages. Then there is static and
dynamic typing. Most (all?) assembly languages are untyped and are
considered a programming language.
LL does have semantics and syntax. It is considered a visual (graphical)
programming language.
J

It doesn\'t use words or letters. Nothing is typed.

Sounds like Labview! <gag, retch

I haven\'t used ladder logic, but when I looked at it it seemed
to be typical of domain specific languages (DSLs): strange but
perfectly adequate for common simple applications. But if you
try to go beyond the undefined and invisible boundary and you\'ll
feel like you\'re falling off a cliff.

I imagine all sorts of kludges have been added to basic ladder
logic to try to extend its range. Such additions usually end up
as incomprehensible cancerous growths.

Time-delay relays are included, but old wired systems had pneumatic or
electronic td relays too. But LL can get hairy if pushed too far, with
analog functions and PID controllers and such. But fine for
bang-banging some solenoids and motors and such. The industrial-level
i/o of a PLC is nice.
I once recommended that a controller based on pneumatic
logic (2000psi, IIRC) should not be replaced with
microcontrollers.

2000psi ??

where they looking for 5000V microcontrollers too?
Nothing wrong with a bit of noise immunity

My very limited experience was, gulp, 40 years ago. However,
https://www.mobilehydraulictips.com/smart-use-logic-elements/
contains phrases like
\"The HLE10-CPC is a high-pressure logic element (350 bar / 5075 psi),
normally-closed, pilot-to-close, and features a rated flow of
80 lpm (21.1 gpm).\"

So my memory is in the right ballpark

that\'s hydraulics not pneumatics

The ones I was concerned with were gas-based. Gas is a fluid.

Hydraulics or pneumatics is a sufficient description for me

 

[Don Y]

On 12/18/2021 12:59 PM, Joerg wrote:

On 12/16/21 8:49 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 12/16/2021 3:02 PM, Joerg wrote:
The lights often \"blink off\" for a second or two, here (likely switching?).
Hence the reason for the 15 UPSs scattered around the house (so each of
the workstations/appliances that *might* be on has a backup available).

[UPSs are inexpensive -- $5]

They cost a little more, starting at $50 for a small one. Provided you want
a new one and not a castaway with a shot battery that will cost almost as
much to replace as a new UPS.

That\'s likely true for the small/cheap \"modified sine wave\"
inverters. Once you step up to true sine wave and higher
power levels, the cost of the batteries becomes a smaller
portion of the total cost. Thus, giving value to \"surplus\"
units (as ANY unit will need new batteries, eventually).

I have no need for such a fancy and expensive inverter. Except in the
generator, where true-sine was included.

Stepped sine-wave and pure sine-wave cost the same as surplus.
You\'re paying for weight, not \"technology\".

Batteries for one cost no more than for the other. So, silly to
settle for stepped output when you can have sine-wave for free.

My 2200VA units were actually NIB -- with functional battery packs!
Someone just decided they weren\'t \"necessary enough\" to keep on
hand. And, when it\'s not *your* (personal) money, folks tend not
to think twice about discards. :-/

I have no need for something this big. From my computers I demand that they are
outage-proof or \"Africa-proof\". And they are (all Linux).

I have 4 spindles in each workstation. And, at least two monitors.
Plus network switches, etc. So, each workstation has a dedicated
UPS. Monitors on another. Switches and DNS/etc. on yet another.

So, when the lights go out, I don\'t even stop what I\'m doing.
Wait an hour and if there is no sign of power returning, *then*
I can decide if I want to stop what I\'m doing *or* power up
genset *or* reshuffle the UPSs to give me increased capacity
(e.g., plug one UPS into the output of another that has
a fresher battery -- inefficient but allows power to remain
uninterrupted to the loads powered by the first UPS)

And, you get bigger battery capacity with higher power output units
so if you want to keep a small load \"up\" for a long time, you will
likely find yourself using a UPS with more capacity (ampacity!)
than needed.

The 1500VA UPS on this PC -- plus the microwave link to the ISP -- will
keep the \"connection\" up for just over 3 hours. As the load is
relatively tiny, I could replace it with a little 250VA unit. And,
likely live with less than an hour of up-time.

We can watch TV, listen to the radio, etc. for similar amounts of
time. Put a 13W LED/CFL bulb in a lamp and light a room for 5-6 hours!

That leaves things such as the wood stove fans. They consume 20-45W depending
on settings and should never be stopped after a reload. The UPS carries them
over the time it takes to get the generator going. Modified sine is good enough
for that.

When we assembled our bug-out-bags, we looked carefully at what
we had on hand and what we could cheaply acquire (the goal is
not to need such a BoB so why throw money at it?)

We already had a charcoal grill so that was the obvious choice for
preparing hot meals at home (shelter-in-place). The charcoal can
be stored outdoors (so no space in the home/garage wasted for that).
It wasn\'t \"highly flammable\" so storing it near the house wasn\'t a
concern, either. To keep it safe from the weather (and creepy crawly
things that might sneak into the bag), we moved it into 5G paint
containers salvaged from one of the routine roof paintings.

But, this isn\'t a practical fuel source if you have to bug out
as it takes a lot of space for the fuel (the charcoal grill can be
\"reduced\" to just saving the actual *grill* that sits inside it).

So, we started with a two burner Coleman (white fuel) camp stove.
But, now we have a second fuel to keep on hand. And, if we
had to travel with it, we\'d run the risk of it spilling inside
the vehicle (i.e., any fuel still in the stove\'s \"tank\")

And, we needed a white fuel lantern to capitalize on that fuel
source.

As well as having to keep THAT fuel on hand, just in case.

Note that none of these help with anything other than cooking
(and light).

This is where wood fire skills come in very handy. I do not need a stove or
charcoal to prepare a decent meal, just a fire.

Yeah, we didn\'t have propane or charcoal or any other fuels when
camping on frozen lakes. Starting fires isn\'t hard -- once
you\'ve learned how.

What you want, however, is not to have to \"play boyscout\" in
an outage. SWMBO isn\'t going to build a wood fire to prepare
a meal if I\'m not available/incapacitated. But, she can
lift a 5G bucket of charcoal and pour it into the Weber,
soak with starter fluid and strike a match.

And, can just close the bottom vent and replace the cover
to be sure it extinguishes, afterwards.

Repeat as necessary.

One of the motivations for a new (bigger) genset is so she
can operate it without having to juggle loads. Let *everything*
that might need/want to be powered be attached to it at the
same time -- instead of having to manually manage the loads
to avoid tripping the breaker.

And, push the little button to start it, instead of recoil starter.

If it has to be small and tidy
a little \"disposable\" hibachi grill of the sub-$10 class from a supermarket is
fine. On vacation trips we cooked for weeks on these and at the end gave them
to other freshly arrived campers.

We\'re not dealing with \"camping\". We\'re trying to address survival
in unforeseen conditions -- 9/11, midwest tornados, quakes, etc. come
to mind. We don\'t think we have any *inherent* risks -- other than
water -- but, I\'m sure those folks didn\'t anticipate the challenges
that they eventually faced! E.g., what happens when your cell phone
service goes out? Who do you talk to -- and how?

A *small* genset gave us the ability to keep the freezer cold.
Or, the refrigerator. Or, run the furnace -- or a window
air conditioner. Assuming we were sheltering in place or
just trying to navigate a prolonged outage (common in
Chicagoland but not here -- though we didn\'t yet know that)

Our 1700/2000W inverter generator can supply both fridge and freezer, plus some
other stuff. Even in Eco-mode which is what I generally use unless I need it
for the operation of a major power tool such as the electric chain saw.

I\'d not want to risk having to repair an electronic device
\"in need\". Genset is considerably simpler device. We can
even run the microwave on it.

But, you need to drain the genset\'s tank before bringing it into
the car. Either run it dry or move fuel back and forth between
car and generator (and hope you\'re not moving crud/moisture *into*
your transportation device\'s tank in the process!)

On modern ones you don\'t. Ours has seal lever which prevents spillage. Just
have to wait half an hour or so after turning it off (and remember) to slip
that lever to shut the tank vent. If you forget to turn it on the generator
will stall after a few minutes.

Gasoline (and diesel) are inherently messy. That\'s the appeal
of propane -- no lingering smell on hands, equipment, etc.
(if you can smell it, then it\'s *somewhere* that it shouldn\'t be!)

Dual fuel allows gasoline when propane *isn\'t* available.
I.e., it\'s a SECOND choice, not a primary one.

Even a small genset is capable of running a single burner on the
electric stovetop. So, we can continue to use the stove while
at home (for the hassle of running an extension cord -- no need
to bother with a transfer switch).

IMO that\'s a serious waste of the precisous resource gasoline. I\'d never do that.

No, you\'d venture outside (or, have your SO do so) to start
a fire \"in the weather\". How much wood do you keep on hand?
If you have to bug out, how much wood do you carry *with* you?

On average, we have 10G of gas on hand. And, can run the microwave if
the item to be heated is amenable to that treatment. Of course,
you only would use power when the genset was running -- so, you
are just an additional load (much like the furnace, freezer,
frig, ACbrr, etc.)

[Wouldn\'t it be vain to run ACbrrr during an outage? Or *heat*?
Surely you can put on another garment -- or shed one!?]

Cleaning carburetors got to be annoying. Trivial but
a task that shouldn\'t be necessary. And, no, I don\'t want to
have to run the genset routinely just to keep emptying the
tank.

No need to empty the tank. We have StaBil in there so the fuel lasts two years.
Well, in PG&E land it never gets a chance to last that long.

I just run it once a month or so to flush new gas through the carburtor. Works.
Mostly I combine that with a chore such as cutting some collected wood to stove
length. A few minutes is all it takes. As I said, I am a believer in
preparedness and for that you\'ve got to test such stuff at regular intervals.

It\'s one more thing to do. Instead of other things that are
more interesting.

I don\'t test my smoke/CO detector every month. But, replace the
battery annually, without fail. If ALL of the detectors fail
in that period and I don\'t notice, then I guess there\'s a problem
with the manufacturer! Maybe I should be testing *daily*??
Hourly???

... (I don\'t like drawing attention to the fact that
we have alternative power sources as folks have no problem
rationalizing that their LACK of preparation ENTITLES them
to the benefit/use of YOUR foresight!)

Weird neighborhood. Nobody thinks that way out here. They only call upon me in
a pinch because they know I am an engineer. Like when someone can\'t figure out
how to open their garage door without electricity. No kidding.

No one \"calls me\" for repairs. But, the neighbor(s) who didn\'t think it
necessary to consider how they\'d keep their insulin refrigerated in a
prolonged outage would likely come knocking. Or, who find themselves
in a 100F home interior (mouses heat up quickly in the absence of
active cooling).

If the outage is local, they\'d get in their vehicle and drive <somewhere>.
\"Lets go to the mall and sit in the food court where it\'s air conditioned
AND we can get a bite to eat\"

But, if that option doesn\'t exist and all you had to do was walk across
the street to get a warm meal, wouldn\'t you? We\'ve \"taken in\"
neighbors in the past. It\'s an inconvenience. Esp when they could
take similar measures to prepare *themselves* as we have (but
choose not to to save money or hassle)

So, the next genset will be 8500W, dual fuel.

And the one after that? Maybe 20kW?

No, a second, 3500W dual fuel that is portable. If we have to bug-out, we
wouldn\'t be concerned with powering a furnace, ACbrrr, frig, freezer,
TV, etc. as we might if sheltering in place for a prolonged period!

... I can keep
a container of propane on the back porch (out of the sun yet
not taking up space IN the house/garage). There are 4 or 5
places where I can get a full tank within 2 miles of here.
Some have large tanks and refill smaller bottles. Others
just sell you a full tank (\"exchange\").

If you think portable (as in hand-carry) propane tank, a 8.5kW generator will
slurp that dry in a jiffy.

A genset uses based on the load it has to support (plus some
inefficiency that varies with magnitude of load and capacity of
genset).

We don\'t *need* 8500W. But, having that \"headroom\" lets us NOT
worry about the present load on the genset when we decide to
turn on the microwave oven. Or, run the garbage disposal to
increase the rate at which the sink drains.

We lived with 3500W for a long time. But, it required
conscious effort to ensure we were always operating
within the capabilities of the genset. \"We\'ll power the
freezer for an hour. Then, the refrigerator. Then,
the furnace. Then...\"

At 6500W, you don\'t need to do as much of this sort of planning
(management).

At 8500W, none! And, you move to dual fuel and electric start
if you\'re looking for a new genset.

Our \"lifestyle\" doesn\'t change when we experience an outage.
We\'re not interested in playing boy scout! :>

And none of those places requires power be available to
\"run the pumps\".

Here, some wouldn\'t even be able to operate their cash register without power.

Propane is typically stored outside in a \"locked cage\". A
key and *cash* work regardless of the state of the power grid.

You also can beg/borrow tanks from neighbors with \"gas grills\";
it\'s not that exotic a fuel source!

This will leave us with:
- charcoal (we\'ve not bought any in 30 years and there is
no cost/risk to keeping what we already have!) for
shelter-in-place meal prep (it\'s easier and attracts
less attention to light a barbeque than fire up the genset!)
It also helps when I have to burn out stumps (I have two
in the front yard that need attention, presently)
- propane for plumbing, \"camp stove\" (usable /in situ/ or
on the road) and \"clean\" genset running both at home and
on the road
- gasoline for transportation and as a backup for the genset
(if there is a sudden rush on the propane suppliers *or*
we\'re traveling and can\'t easily locate a vendor)

Looks like you are planning to equip an army

No. \"Be prepared\". I\'ve a myriad of specialty tools that I
seldom use. But, having them on hand leaves me ready when the
need arises. Whether it\'s a come-along, inside/outside ring
clamp pliers, EZ-outs, etc. a trip into the garage is a lot
easier than hoping to find what you need (when you need it)
on the shelf, *today*.

We want to reduce the *number* of devices that we have on hand ...

So what is your rationale behind buying a propane stove and then having to
buy yet another item, a propane bottle? Or rather two because you don\'t want
to run out of it when the expensive filet mignons are 50% cooked.

Why would I want to cook filet mignon on a propane stove when I
have an oven that works in the house? Even if I was in the process
of cooking them and *needed* to finish them \"indoors\", I\'d just run
a cable to the oven (and discipline myself not to turn on the
stovetop *and* the broiler at the same time -- unless I knew
the furnace/freezer/frig/etc. wouldn\'t be competing for that
power.)

With a massive generator you can do that but you still have to make sure that
one doesn\'t run out of fuel in the middle of the action. I love simplicity,
hence cooking over wood fire. Tastes better, too. My favorite wood for beef is
manzanita.

That\'s why we have gasoline as a backup fuel source. I can fetch
20 gallons at a time and just \"park it\" by the genset.

Where does \"wood burning\" fit into all this?


Two jobs here:

1. Keeping the beer and the food cold (fridge) -> generator.
2. Cooking meals -> wood fire.
3. Emergency comms (in my case ham radio) -> batteries and generator

Anything else is lower priority. As long as one does not run out of beer

We continue our normal lifestyle during outages. SWMBO does her
artwork, I do my engineering. The meals we prepare are largely
the same (though we will try to plan to let things defrost
naturally instead of accelerating that process with the microwave).

We *try* to be more aware of the time spent with the refrigerator
door \"open\" (surveying the contents). And, won\'t use the garage door
as a way of WALKING in and out of the house (we can use the *real* door
and walk a few extra feet to save cycling the GDO).

I may opt to turn off a couple of workstations (instead of just
pivoting my chair to redirect my attention to whichever has the
tools/resources that I need, now). And, I\'m likely not going to
be doing anything using power tools that can be deferred.

to maintain as \"end of life\" is much closer than \"rest of life\"
(and the survivor having to clean up the cruft that has been
accumulated over a lifetime would be an unkind imposition!)

What would we be without all our cruft?

Free-er? Personally, I\'m very anxious to rid myself of as
much excess cruft as possible, as soon as possible. SWMBO
would curse me to all Eternity if I dropped dead, tomorrow
(and left her with all this stuff to sort out).

Very much the same here

Unfortunately, it takes a lot of time and effort (and no small
bit of \"distress\") to shed that stuff.

And, resist the urge to ADD to the collection! When I brought home
the 5KVA UPS (600 pounds, half-again the size of a dishwasher), the
look that greeted me would have killed a less determined man! And,
trying to explain why I rescued the power washer... or, the *two*
electric wheelchairs...

But, even tools can be \"pruned\". I just tossed an ARB and
freq counter: \"When was the last time I used either of those?\"
And, how many \"spare\" \'scope probes do I need to keep?
How many TVs? Monitors? PCs?

I should do the same but I built my frequency counter 45 years ago myself, from
scratch, when each of the dozens of TTL chips in there cost several Dollars.
Hard to toss but I know it has to be done.

Years ago, I adopted a policy of ROUTINELY asking myself:
\"If the house were to catch fire, today, and I awoke from
a sound sleep, what *one* thing would I rescue?\"
My goal has always been to answer: \"nothing\".

In a practical sense, that\'s where I\'m at, now. I would
grab the thumb drive that has all of our important documents
but, leave everything else to burn.

As most of my \"value\" lies in \"spinning magnetic domains\",
I can easily preserve that, off-site. The rest is just
\"stuff\".

I pity folks who have sentimental attachments to things
as that\'s an irrational hold and harder to break.

Yeah, it\'s really convenient to be able to drag out a spare
computer (or laptop), install an OS and use it to test a
piece of software without having to worry about getting it on
and off a *real* workstation. Or, swap out a monitor that
goes on the fritz without having to stop what you are working
on at the time. Or, add another 16 signals to a logic trace
that you\'d not previously thought to be of interest.

But, all of that \"convenience\" comes at a cost -- piles of kit!

Agree.

In my case, I\'m preparing to head off in a different direction
so all this kit will soon be superfluous. But, that puts extra
pressure in the here-and-now: why dispose of it NOW if I\'ll be
disposing of it *soon*? <frown>

Instead of just turning the knob to \"high\" and placing the pan
on a burner (or in the oven)?

That requires a big generator to run. I prefer a lower energy footprint.

An electric burner is typ about 200W. With a duty-cycle modulated
temperature control, you have to be able to handle the full load
even if the average load is less.

But, if we can heat something in the microwave in 60 seconds,
then the total load is much smaller.

[SWMBO is a slower eater but also has no desire to waste time
\"eating\" when there are more exciting things she could be doing]

We prefer French style eating where every meal is a celebration and not a
quick culinary gulp. Although I must confess that I tend to be a
\"hyper-diner\", especially when it tastes really good.

We invest time to prepare meals \"in quantity\" so that they can be
consumed quickly and with little prep/cleanup involved.

I\'ll spend 4 hours making a pair of meatloaves -- and net 20
meals from it. Freeze individual slices (coated with surplus
sauce). Remove from freezer, peel from plastic bag, drop
on plate, microwave for two minutes. Eat. One dirty
plate and one discarded plastic bag.

But then the meat loaves need to be cooked for a long time. That\'s where wood
fires shine.

An hour. I spend the time cleaning up from all the chopping,
slicing, mixing, etc. So, when they come out of the oven,
all I have to do is slice and bag (for freezing).

SWMBO likes wood-fired pizza. I\'m not going to build her
an over just for that! I\'d rather mail-order frozen ones
from Chicago...

Or, 12 hours making 4G of marinara/bolognese/pomadora freschi
to freeze for later use (in pasta dishes, a la parmigiana
meals, pizza, etc.)

But, the actual *eating* is limited by how quickly you can chew.

Well, here we seem to have different philosophies. We prefer to have a large
variety of foods for dinner. Other than pizza (but with different toppings)
nothing ever repeats itself over the course of 1-2 months.

When we prepare foods for ourselves, it is limited to what
we need to sustain ourselves and \"enjoy\". We want to get
back to whatever we were doing before \"interrupted\" by the
meal.

When we entertain, it\'s a lost day (or more) preparing a wider
variety of foods for our guests to choose from (we tend to serve
buffet style instead of defining what folks will eat).

But, the emphasis, there, is on the social aspect -- not on sustenance.

I regularly meet with colleagues for \"off-sites\" -- hosting at least
once a year (we take turns). The *last* thing they want to do is sit
around a table! Instead, we grab <something> and move into the
lab or my office to tinker with stuff. Later, we\'ll wander outside
and sit around drinking and talking. But, the traditional repast is
not a part of their visit. (\"Time\'s a wastin\'!\")

When we have folks over, I prepare items that can be *held*
(steak sandwiches, broiled kielbasa sandwiches, tacos,
\"wraps\", sonoran dogs, jalapeno poppers, etc.) so we can
circulate through the house and yard and \"do things\" other
than being stuck at a table. We all know what we each LOOK
like -- and dinnerware is largely boring -- so no need to
be locked into place staring at each other when there are other
things we can do/explore!

I like to stand around the barbecue with guests and solve all the political
problems of our country

My friends and I will talk tech. SWMBO\'s will chat about art or
whatever women talk about when we\'re not listening... <shrug>

Having the kit available to illustrate/explore the things we\'re
discussing means we want to spend time with it, instead of just
pie-in-the-skying.

No Monday-morning-quarterbacking though because none of us is interested in
ballgames.

Ditto.

I did the Boy Scout stint as a kid. No need to prove that I can
*still* live on a frozen lake without access to wood/fire, water, etc.

IMO it is good to keep up such skills. Plus for me it\'s fun. Case in point:
More than once have I been at a house where someone became frustrated
getting a wood stove or an outdoor fireplace going. I took over, rebuilt the
pile a bit -> match -> whoosh -> fire.

IME, you don\'t forget such skills -- if you\'ve had to *rely* on them,
in the past. I\'ve not ridden a bicycle in decades -- wanna bet I\'d
have no problem doing so, tomorrow? ...

Sure, but come with me on the El Dorado Trail and you will very likely crash.
This is what happened to a friend who thought this way, that he knows how to
ride a bicycle. Some rock shifted and he got hurt quite badly. That\'s the only
bikeable route to Placerville and it requires fairly good and fresh muscle memory.

Why would I be riding my bike, there? If I want exercise, I walk the
neighborhood (~4mi/day = 1hr) -- assuming I\'m not already engaged in some
other physical activity (e.g., hauling 70 pound buckets of paint up
to the roof, felling trees, etc.). My /pro bono/ work is often very
physical and exercises other parts of my body that walking doesn\'t
(e.g., upper body lifting stuff over my head into large roll offs)

I gave up my bicycle because it was an impractical mode of transportation
\"in town\". It\'s tough making left turns across 6-8 lanes of traffic and
*hoping* folks see you! OTOH, I can walk to the library, post office,
etc. and get a fair bit of exercise with considerably less risk of injury
as I\'m far removed from the roadway (I can make half of the 4.4mi trip to
the library without being in sight of a road!)

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 07:17:53 -0800, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com
wrote:

LL is not a language; nothing is typed. The model is a diagram of
switches and relay coils, which is very intuitive. There are small
PLCs for roughly $100, with industrial-type inputs and outputs. Not a
bad way to control a simple machine.

I had to make a custom automated machine controller that was easily
programmable some years ago, so I created a textual LL and associated
command-line LL compiler using Unix tools like GNU Bison and Flex.

Compiled virtually instantly on any PC and spit out a token file that
was interpreted from EEPROM by a program running on an MCU.

I think I\'d do it differently today, but there was also an issue of
securing the \'crown jewels\' part of the code (which lived in the MCU).
--
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

 

[Martin Brown]

On 18/12/2021 17:31, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

On Sat, 18 Dec 2021 11:52:45 -0500, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 10:03:47 -0800 (PST), Three Jeeps
jjhudak4@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, December 17, 2021 at 10:18:05 AM UTC-5, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 08:41:42 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaOnSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 16 Dec 2021 17:22:23 -0800) it happened
jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
3ipnrg5t34hokt9h7...@4ax.com>:

On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 18:48:01 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaOnSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 16 Dec 2021 10:39:31 -0800 (PST)) it happened Lasse
Langwadt Christensen <lang...@fonz.dk> wrote in
9c43cd33-acee-4e51...@googlegroups.com>:

torsdag den 16. december 2021 kl. 06.25.56 UTC+1 skrev Spehro Pefhany:
On Tue, 14 Dec 2021 12:24:44 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com
wrote:


Yes! Or better yet, design an analog controller that works like it used
to be on pellet stoves.
Or you could go the other way and use something like this on a
Raspberry Pi:

https://pypi.org/project/PyScada/

;-) All sorts of fun with Django and React, cascading style sheets
to get the perfect layouts for remote access on different mobile
devices, and some interesting problems with guaranteeing safe shutdown
of the Debian file system.

afaik ext4 is pretty robust against powerloss

a cheap PLC might be a simpler choice

Just a Microchip PIC
Rest is overkill

People should learn asm

Away with all those high level blurb languages.
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html




Ladder logic.

Yes I remember the PLC guys where I worked used that,
never used it myself.

But as with all things, if YOU do not know how to do it,
then throwing any language at it will not work either

LL is not a language; nothing is typed. The model is a diagram of
switches and relay coils, which is very intuitive. There are small
PLCs for roughly $100, with industrial-type inputs and outputs. Not a
bad way to control a simple machine.

Probably as good a way as any.

A notation does not have to be typed to be a programming language. There are strongly typed, weakly typed and untyped languages. Then there is static and dynamic typing. Most (all?) assembly languages are untyped and are considered a programming language.
LL does have semantics and syntax. It is considered a visual (graphical) programming language.
J

It doesn\'t use words or letters. Nothing is typed.

Sounds like Labview! <gag, retch


Ladder Logic was invented so factory-floor guys, who used real relays
to interlock and control things, could program PLCs to replace the
relays when they died. It\'s pretty simple and makes sense for that
case.

It is a simplified version of Nassi-Sneiderman diagrams which can in
principle at least be used for general programming. I was briefly a fan
of them once upon a time thinking that they might make programming logic
communicable to the suits who make the really important decisions.

Detractors called them nasty spiderman diagrams.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nassi–Shneiderman_diagram

I moved on before it was ever given a chance to really work. There was a
lot of \"don\'t bother me with the details - JFDI\" from my superiors.

Sounds like a sensible way to fix a pellet stove without making it
into a giant project that has to be done in freezing weather.

Doesn\'t he just need a massive high power on-off switch if that is the
only function that has really failed?

Probably not a good idea to start a war with the thing in mid-winter.


--
Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[David Brown]

On 18/12/2021 20:07, Joerg wrote:

On 12/17/21 3:38 AM, David Brown wrote:
On 16/12/2021 21:59, Joerg wrote:
On 12/16/21 12:49 PM, David Brown wrote:

<snip>

People do but many voters are not very smart. The cause here in CA is
rather clear. A lot of extreme \"green\" requirements were foisted on
utilities by incompetent or corrupt politicians. The result was neglect
of the grid, high prices and frequent power shortages because they had
to close fossil-fuel or nuclear plants.


(I don\'t have a more helpful answer, unfortunately, but I just can\'t
see
\"pushing your politicians\" as being a serious way to reduce power
outages.)


Vote in better ones. But most voters just aren\'t smart enough for that.
As had been very obvious when they didn\'t recall our governor who
reportedly had some strange deals going on with a utility (the one with
all the outgages and fires). When reporters questioned him about it in
front of cameras his solution was to walk away. Voters should have
walked him out of office.


Do you understand how representational democracies work?


Yes, I even took a test about that (to become a US citizen). It works a
bit differently here than in Norway. From your reply-to domain I assume
that is where you live.

Yes, I live in Norway.

                                                    ...  Except in a
few extreme cases, elections are not decided on individual issues - you
vote for the politicians or parties that you think will do the best job
overall.


Different here. In contrast to many other countries the US has ballot
measures, weher voters actually do decideon individual issues.

That\'s a different matter. I think it is a good thing that you have
these single-issue questions that are sometimes asked alongside a normal
electoral vote. Most Western democracies only have such direct
questions very occasionally - such as the UK\'s \"Brexit\" vote.
(Switzerland is the odd one out, having more referendums than most
countries, and thus being a bit closer to being a direct democracy.)
However, such direct questions are only relevant for the issue being
asked - how people answer to \"should this state legalise marijuana?\" is
completely irrelevant to how the utility companies work in the state.
So unless you have a system where the general public can somehow decide
which issues get these extra ballot questions, you are in the same state.

...  No matter how smart the voters (and let\'s face it, few of them
are particularly smart and there is no test for basic political
knowledge to qualify for voting), you are always balancing issues.  You
might disagree entirely with a party in how they stand on electricity
generation and distribution - yet vote for it because of their stance on
taxes, health, education, or whatever.  And you don\'t get to choose the
candidates either - if the party that you think should be running the
place has fielded an idiot in your area, tough.  (Democracy is, after
all, the worst possible system - apart from all the rest.)


Again, different in the US. You can actually vote for, say, a Republican
president but then for a Democrat representative. You can even vote in
(or out) the local sheriff here. Same for the attorney general. The
party does not decide who that will be, the voters do. I assume you
aren\'t an American and then this might sound unusual but that\'s the way
it is.

I am not an American, but I /do/ understand how that works. And it
really isn\'t that different from other representative democracies except
in the details. (In particular, non-political positions in most
countries are appointed based on normal job qualifications. This means
a sheriff or attorney general is, at least in theory, given the job
based on qualifications and expected ability at the job, rather than
their ability to canvas votes, popularity with the public, or their
personal politics.)

We have political governance at three levels here in Norway - local
county, regional, and national. (Obviously we\'re a much smaller country
than the USA, and we are a single nation rather than a federation of
states, which limits comparisons. It might be better to think of
comparing a US state to the country of Norway. And as a kingdom, we
don\'t have any equivalent to a president or a governor.) We can - and
do - vote for different parties at the different levels. We can - and
do - vote based on particular candidates as an alternative to simply
voting for a party. And we have lots of parties to choose from, rather
than the American three of right-wing, even further right-wing, and
irrelevant (a.k.a. \"independent\"). Just like you, especially at the
more local level it is quite normal for people to vote against their
usual party preferences simply because they believe a particular person
is better suited to the job despite their party. (In fact, we even have
a somewhat odd and complicated system in the ballots where, in addition
to voting for a particular party, you can give \"likes\" or \"dislikes\" to
individuals from the same or another party, which influence that
person\'s position in their party lineup.)

 

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Monday, December 20, 2021 at 9:25:12 AM UTC+11, David Brown wrote:

On 18/12/2021 20:07, Joerg wrote:
On 12/17/21 3:38 AM, David Brown wrote:
On 16/12/2021 21:59, Joerg wrote:
On 12/16/21 12:49 PM, David Brown wrote:

<snip>

Vote in better ones. But most voters just aren\'t smart enough for that.
As had been very obvious when they didn\'t recall our governor who
reportedly had some strange deals going on with a utility (the one with
all the outgages and fires). When reporters questioned him about it in
front of cameras his solution was to walk away. Voters should have
walked him out of office.


Do you understand how representational democracies work?


Yes, I even took a test about that (to become a US citizen). It works a
bit differently here than in Norway. From your reply-to domain I assume
that is where you live.

Yes, I live in Norway.

... Except in a
few extreme cases, elections are not decided on individual issues - you
vote for the politicians or parties that you think will do the best job
overall.


Different here. In contrast to many other countries the US has ballot
measures, whether voters actually do decide on individual issues.
That\'s a different matter. I think it is a good thing that you have
these single-issue questions that are sometimes asked alongside a normal
electoral vote. Most Western democracies only have such direct
questions very occasionally - such as the UK\'s \"Brexit\" vote.
(Switzerland is the odd one out, having more referendums than most
countries, and thus being a bit closer to being a direct democracy.)
However, such direct questions are only relevant for the issue being
asked - how people answer to \"should this state legalise marijuana?\" is
completely irrelevant to how the utility companies work in the state.
So unless you have a system where the general public can somehow decide
which issues get these extra ballot questions, you are in the same state.


... No matter how smart the voters (and let\'s face it, few of them
are particularly smart and there is no test for basic political
knowledge to qualify for voting), you are always balancing issues. You
might disagree entirely with a party in how they stand on electricity
generation and distribution - yet vote for it because of their stance on
taxes, health, education, or whatever. And you don\'t get to choose the
candidates either - if the party that you think should be running the
place has fielded an idiot in your area, tough. (Democracy is, after
all, the worst possible system - apart from all the rest.)


Again, different in the US. You can actually vote for, say, a Republican
president but then for a Democrat representative. You can even vote in
(or out) the local sheriff here. Same for the attorney general. The
party does not decide who that will be, the voters do. I assume you
aren\'t an American and then this might sound unusual but that\'s the way
it is.

I am not an American, but I /do/ understand how that works. And it
really isn\'t that different from other representative democracies except
in the details. (In particular, non-political positions in most
countries are appointed based on normal job qualifications. This means
a sheriff or attorney general is, at least in theory, given the job
based on qualifications and expected ability at the job, rather than
their ability to canvas votes, popularity with the public, or their
personal politics.)

We have political governance at three levels here in Norway - local
county, regional, and national. (Obviously we\'re a much smaller country
than the USA, and we are a single nation rather than a federation of
states, which limits comparisons. It might be better to think of
comparing a US state to the country of Norway. And as a kingdom, we
don\'t have any equivalent to a president or a governor.) We can - and
do - vote for different parties at the different levels. We can - and
do - vote based on particular candidates as an alternative to simply
voting for a party. And we have lots of parties to choose from, rather
than the American three of right-wing, even further right-wing, and
irrelevant (a.k.a. \"independent\"). Just like you, especially at the
more local level it is quite normal for people to vote against their
usual party preferences simply because they believe a particular person
is better suited to the job despite their party. (In fact, we even have
a somewhat odd and complicated system in the ballots where, in addition
to voting for a particular party, you can give \"likes\" or \"dislikes\" to
individuals from the same or another party, which influence that
person\'s position in their party lineup.)

That \"odd and complicated system\" is presumably proportional representation, where you have multi-member electorates, and can - in principle - put different numbers against every one of an even larger number of candidates. Mostly people vote a party ticket, which lets the party decide which it their most preferred candidate and set up a preference list running down through their candidates then through the other party candidates, with preference swaps being negotiated between parties.

The Netherlands had a scheme where you could signify a party preference and a preference for a particular candidate, which would by-pass the political party\'s preferred rankings.

The Australian Senate is elected by this kind of mechanism, but the House of Representatives works on single member electorates - where you can use the Hare-Clark single transferable vote system to express your - ranked - preferences if you want to.

All of this was invented after America had set up it\'s constitution, so Americans rarely know anything about it at all.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportional_representation

doesn\'t seem to be quite right. but cover the high points.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Three Jeeps]

On Friday, December 17, 2021 at 10:18:05 AM UTC-5, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 08:41:42 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaOnSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 16 Dec 2021 17:22:23 -0800) it happened
jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
3ipnrg5t34hokt9h7...@4ax.com>:

On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 18:48:01 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaOnSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 16 Dec 2021 10:39:31 -0800 (PST)) it happened Lasse
Langwadt Christensen <lang...@fonz.dk> wrote in
9c43cd33-acee-4e51...@googlegroups.com>:

torsdag den 16. december 2021 kl. 06.25.56 UTC+1 skrev Spehro Pefhany:
On Tue, 14 Dec 2021 12:24:44 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com
wrote:


Yes! Or better yet, design an analog controller that works like it used
to be on pellet stoves.
Or you could go the other way and use something like this on a
Raspberry Pi:

https://pypi.org/project/PyScada/

;-) All sorts of fun with Django and React, cascading style sheets
to get the perfect layouts for remote access on different mobile
devices, and some interesting problems with guaranteeing safe shutdown
of the Debian file system.

afaik ext4 is pretty robust against powerloss

a cheap PLC might be a simpler choice

Just a Microchip PIC
Rest is overkill

People should learn asm

Away with all those high level blurb languages.
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html




Ladder logic.

Yes I remember the PLC guys where I worked used that,
never used it myself.

But as with all things, if YOU do not know how to do it,
then throwing any language at it will not work either

LL is not a language; nothing is typed. The model is a diagram of
switches and relay coils, which is very intuitive. There are small
PLCs for roughly $100, with industrial-type inputs and outputs. Not a
bad way to control a simple machine.



--

I yam what I yam - Popeye

one might be surprised to learn that many steel, aluminum, and refinery plants are controlled by PLCs (level 0/1) controllers. These are large scale applications. They do much more than simple relay bang bang control.
A number of universities have incorporated teaching about ladder logic and PLCs into their curriculum - they see it as a way to enhance the attractiveness of their student products to industry.
J

 

[Rick C]

On Monday, December 20, 2021 at 2:15:01 AM UTC-4, jjhu...@gmail.com wrote:

On Friday, December 17, 2021 at 10:18:05 AM UTC-5, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 08:41:42 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaOnSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 16 Dec 2021 17:22:23 -0800) it happened
jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
3ipnrg5t34hokt9h7...@4ax.com>:

On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 18:48:01 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaOnSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 16 Dec 2021 10:39:31 -0800 (PST)) it happened Lasse
Langwadt Christensen <lang...@fonz.dk> wrote in
9c43cd33-acee-4e51...@googlegroups.com>:

torsdag den 16. december 2021 kl. 06.25.56 UTC+1 skrev Spehro Pefhany:
On Tue, 14 Dec 2021 12:24:44 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com
wrote:


Yes! Or better yet, design an analog controller that works like it used
to be on pellet stoves.
Or you could go the other way and use something like this on a
Raspberry Pi:

https://pypi.org/project/PyScada/

;-) All sorts of fun with Django and React, cascading style sheets
to get the perfect layouts for remote access on different mobile
devices, and some interesting problems with guaranteeing safe shutdown
of the Debian file system.

afaik ext4 is pretty robust against powerloss

a cheap PLC might be a simpler choice

Just a Microchip PIC
Rest is overkill

People should learn asm

Away with all those high level blurb languages.
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html




Ladder logic.

Yes I remember the PLC guys where I worked used that,
never used it myself.

But as with all things, if YOU do not know how to do it,
then throwing any language at it will not work either

LL is not a language; nothing is typed. The model is a diagram of
switches and relay coils, which is very intuitive. There are small
PLCs for roughly $100, with industrial-type inputs and outputs. Not a
bad way to control a simple machine.



--

I yam what I yam - Popeye
one might be surprised to learn that many steel, aluminum, and refinery plants are controlled by PLCs (level 0/1) controllers. These are large scale applications. They do much more than simple relay bang bang control.
A number of universities have incorporated teaching about ladder logic and PLCs into their curriculum - they see it as a way to enhance the attractiveness of their student products to industry.

PLCs have progressed far beyond ladder logic. They are in actuality complete computers programmable in a variety of languages. My brother took over a design from Ft Detrick that uses a PLC to monitor fish which are excellent sensors for water pollution. When irritated by pollution they cough which the PLC detects. I\'m told the program is a bit of \"AI\", whatever that means. At least they didn\'t call it fuzzy logic. I assume it is in actuality a bit of signal analysis software. I dunno, maybe it was faster/easier to train an AI with many examples of fish coughs rather than to try to figure out what filter parameters to program. It\'s just a mention of AI recalls the example where the military trained an AI to distinguish Soviet vs. friendly tanks. It did perfectly in training but crapped out in the field extraordinarily. Seems all the photos of friendly tanks were daytime photos and the Soviet tanks were all night photos. What do you think the AI was picking up on?

--

Rick C.

--- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[David Brown]

On 20/12/2021 05:40, Anthony William Sloman wrote:

On Monday, December 20, 2021 at 9:25:12 AM UTC+11, David Brown
wrote:
On 18/12/2021 20:07, Joerg wrote:
On 12/17/21 3:38 AM, David Brown wrote:
On 16/12/2021 21:59, Joerg wrote:
On 12/16/21 12:49 PM, David Brown wrote:

snip

Vote in better ones. But most voters just aren\'t smart enough
for that. As had been very obvious when they didn\'t recall
our governor who reportedly had some strange deals going on
with a utility (the one with all the outgages and fires).
When reporters questioned him about it in front of cameras
his solution was to walk away. Voters should have walked him
out of office.


Do you understand how representational democracies work?


Yes, I even took a test about that (to become a US citizen). It
works a bit differently here than in Norway. From your reply-to
domain I assume that is where you live.

Yes, I live in Norway.

... Except in a few extreme cases, elections are not decided
on individual issues - you vote for the politicians or parties
that you think will do the best job overall.


Different here. In contrast to many other countries the US has
ballot measures, whether voters actually do decide on individual
issues.
That\'s a different matter. I think it is a good thing that you have
these single-issue questions that are sometimes asked alongside a
normal electoral vote. Most Western democracies only have such
direct questions very occasionally - such as the UK\'s \"Brexit\"
vote. (Switzerland is the odd one out, having more referendums than
most countries, and thus being a bit closer to being a direct
democracy.) However, such direct questions are only relevant for
the issue being asked - how people answer to \"should this state
legalise marijuana?\" is completely irrelevant to how the utility
companies work in the state. So unless you have a system where the
general public can somehow decide which issues get these extra
ballot questions, you are in the same state.


... No matter how smart the voters (and let\'s face it, few of
them are particularly smart and there is no test for basic
political knowledge to qualify for voting), you are always
balancing issues. You might disagree entirely with a party in
how they stand on electricity generation and distribution - yet
vote for it because of their stance on taxes, health,
education, or whatever. And you don\'t get to choose the
candidates either - if the party that you think should be
running the place has fielded an idiot in your area, tough.
(Democracy is, after all, the worst possible system - apart
from all the rest.)


Again, different in the US. You can actually vote for, say, a
Republican president but then for a Democrat representative. You
can even vote in (or out) the local sheriff here. Same for the
attorney general. The party does not decide who that will be, the
voters do. I assume you aren\'t an American and then this might
sound unusual but that\'s the way it is.

I am not an American, but I /do/ understand how that works. And it
really isn\'t that different from other representative democracies
except in the details. (In particular, non-political positions in
most countries are appointed based on normal job qualifications.
This means a sheriff or attorney general is, at least in theory,
given the job based on qualifications and expected ability at the
job, rather than their ability to canvas votes, popularity with the
public, or their personal politics.)

We have political governance at three levels here in Norway - local
county, regional, and national. (Obviously we\'re a much smaller
country than the USA, and we are a single nation rather than a
federation of states, which limits comparisons. It might be better
to think of comparing a US state to the country of Norway. And as a
kingdom, we don\'t have any equivalent to a president or a
governor.) We can - and do - vote for different parties at the
different levels. We can - and do - vote based on particular
candidates as an alternative to simply voting for a party. And we
have lots of parties to choose from, rather than the American three
of right-wing, even further right-wing, and irrelevant (a.k.a.
\"independent\"). Just like you, especially at the more local level
it is quite normal for people to vote against their usual party
preferences simply because they believe a particular person is
better suited to the job despite their party. (In fact, we even
have a somewhat odd and complicated system in the ballots where, in
addition to voting for a particular party, you can give \"likes\" or
\"dislikes\" to individuals from the same or another party, which
influence that person\'s position in their party lineup.)

That \"odd and complicated system\" is presumably proportional
representation, where you have multi-member electorates, and can - in
principle - put different numbers against every one of an even larger
number of candidates. Mostly people vote a party ticket, which lets
the party decide which it their most preferred candidate and set up a
preference list running down through their candidates then through
the other party candidates, with preference swaps being negotiated
between parties.

Not quite - the \"odd and complicated system\" is in addition to a more
standard proportional representation. (It may well be that other
countries have similar systems.) What you described above is the basis
of proportional representation. What /I/ described is that in addition
to this, voters can have direct influence on the priorities of
candidates on party lists. I can say \"I\'m voting for the Purple party,
but as I like Colonel Mustard personally, I want him to be higher up on
the party list for the Yellow Party\".

The Netherlands had a scheme where you could signify a party
preference and a preference for a particular candidate, which would
by-pass the political party\'s preferred rankings.

The Australian Senate is elected by this kind of mechanism, but the
House of Representatives works on single member electorates - where
you can use the Hare-Clark single transferable vote system to express
your - ranked - preferences if you want to.

All of this was invented after America had set up it\'s constitution,
so Americans rarely know anything about it at all.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportional_representation

doesn\'t seem to be quite right. but cover the high points.

Yes, indeed - it is the proportional representation that is the major
influence. The votes for people individually rarely make a big difference.

 

[David Brown]

On 18/12/2021 18:20, Tom Gardner wrote:

On 18/12/21 16:52, Phil Hobbs wrote:
John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 10:03:47 -0800 (PST), Three Jeeps
jjhudak4@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, December 17, 2021 at 10:18:05 AM UTC-5,
jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 08:41:42 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaOnSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 16 Dec 2021 17:22:23 -0800) it happened
jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
3ipnrg5t34hokt9h7...@4ax.com>:

On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 18:48:01 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaOnSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 16 Dec 2021 10:39:31 -0800 (PST)) it
happened Lasse
Langwadt Christensen <lang...@fonz.dk> wrote in
9c43cd33-acee-4e51...@googlegroups.com>:

torsdag den 16. december 2021 kl. 06.25.56 UTC+1 skrev Spehro
Pefhany:
On Tue, 14 Dec 2021 12:24:44 -0800, Joerg
ne...@analogconsultants.com
wrote:


Yes! Or better yet, design an analog controller that works
like it used
to be on pellet stoves.
Or you could go the other way and use something like this on a
Raspberry Pi:

https://pypi.org/project/PyScada/

;-) All sorts of fun with Django and React, cascading style
sheets
to get the perfect layouts for remote access on different mobile
devices, and some interesting problems with guaranteeing safe
shutdown
of the Debian file system.

afaik ext4 is pretty robust against powerloss

a cheap PLC might be a simpler choice

Just a Microchip PIC
Rest is overkill

People should learn asm

Away with all those high level blurb languages.
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html




Ladder logic.

Yes I remember the PLC guys where I worked used that,
never used it myself.

But as with all things, if YOU do not know how to do it,
then throwing any language at it will not work either

LL is not a language; nothing is typed. The model is a diagram of
switches and relay coils, which is very intuitive. There are small
PLCs for roughly $100, with industrial-type inputs and outputs. Not a
bad way to control a simple machine.


John Hudak

12:56 PM (0 minutes ago)


A notation does not have to be typed to be a programming language. 
There are strongly typed, weakly typed and untyped languages. Then
there is static  and dynamic typing.  Most (all?) assembly languages
are untyped and are considered a programming language.
LL does have semantics and syntax. It is considered a visual
(graphical) programming language.
J

It doesn\'t use words or letters. Nothing is typed.

Sounds like Labview!  <gag, retch

I haven\'t used ladder logic, but when I looked at it it seemed
to be typical of domain specific languages (DSLs): strange but
perfectly adequate for common simple applications. But if you
try to go beyond the undefined and invisible boundary and you\'ll
feel like you\'re falling off a cliff.

I imagine all sorts of kludges have been added to basic ladder
logic to try to extend its range. Such additions usually end up
as incomprehensible cancerous growths.

Your imagination is fairly accurate!

Ladder was originally designed to let automation engineers emulate the
kind of control systems they had used before - relays, timers, counters,
and occasional complex parts such as PID regulators. Basically, it just
like drawing programmable logic using a schematic editor, except that
you usually have a vertical structure (like a ladder). As PLC\'s have
become more sophisticated, they have gained more and more \"black box\"
components that are very remote from the original idea, such as boxes
for handling web protocols or SQL database queries. And as sizes have
increased, so has the unwieldiness of some tools - for some PLC\'s, the
tools don\'t even have good ways to allocate or track relay numbers.
(Imagine assembly programming without any directives for allocating
space, and perhaps not even macro names - all your variables and
addresses are entered manually by number, tracked and documented in a
spreadsheet separately from the program.)

Other tools are more sophisticated, and some provide alternative
text-based entry with written logical expressions rather than webs of
relay symbols.

 

[server]

On Sun, 19 Dec 2021 22:14:56 -0800 (PST), Three Jeeps
<jjhudak4@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, December 17, 2021 at 10:18:05 AM UTC-5, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 08:41:42 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaOnSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 16 Dec 2021 17:22:23 -0800) it happened
jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
3ipnrg5t34hokt9h7...@4ax.com>:

On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 18:48:01 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaOnSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 16 Dec 2021 10:39:31 -0800 (PST)) it happened Lasse
Langwadt Christensen <lang...@fonz.dk> wrote in
9c43cd33-acee-4e51...@googlegroups.com>:

torsdag den 16. december 2021 kl. 06.25.56 UTC+1 skrev Spehro Pefhany:
On Tue, 14 Dec 2021 12:24:44 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com
wrote:


Yes! Or better yet, design an analog controller that works like it used
to be on pellet stoves.
Or you could go the other way and use something like this on a
Raspberry Pi:

https://pypi.org/project/PyScada/

;-) All sorts of fun with Django and React, cascading style sheets
to get the perfect layouts for remote access on different mobile
devices, and some interesting problems with guaranteeing safe shutdown
of the Debian file system.

afaik ext4 is pretty robust against powerloss

a cheap PLC might be a simpler choice

Just a Microchip PIC
Rest is overkill

People should learn asm

Away with all those high level blurb languages.
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html




Ladder logic.

Yes I remember the PLC guys where I worked used that,
never used it myself.

But as with all things, if YOU do not know how to do it,
then throwing any language at it will not work either

LL is not a language; nothing is typed. The model is a diagram of
switches and relay coils, which is very intuitive. There are small
PLCs for roughly $100, with industrial-type inputs and outputs. Not a
bad way to control a simple machine.



--

I yam what I yam - Popeye
one might be surprised to learn that many steel, aluminum, and refinery plants are controlled by PLCs (level 0/1) controllers. These are large scale applications. They do much more than simple relay bang bang control.
A number of universities have incorporated teaching about ladder logic and PLCs into their curriculum - they see it as a way to enhance the attractiveness of their student products to industry.
J

We visited a classroom at Sierra College, the branch in Truckee. There
is a 2-year course in factory automation that has a 100% rate of job
offers to graduates. The prof used to post here.

Going to school for two years in Truckee, on the stunning campus,
learning real stuff with no student debt, major expense lift tickets,
and then running the enormous Budweiser factory near Sacramento,
doesn\'t sound like a bad life. One of his female grads did that.



--

I yam what I yam - Popeye