Audio Precision System One Dual Domani Measuirement Systems

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article
<d552db05-8404-4043-9515-39be842d037d@c21g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>,
<rrusston@hotmail.com> wrote:

You need to look up fires caused by poorly specified house
distribution systems in the US, before criticising the UK. It is many
times worse than here.

In the US, electrical house fires are mostly a result of incompetent
DIY wiring or failed appliances......or arson.

One of the major reasons is those 'wire nuts' oh so common, and banned
over here many many years ago.

--
*Some people are alive only because it's illegal to kill them *

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

 

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article
<b7714685-c078-4a38-8aa0-3d174e338cf2@h6g2000yqk.googlegroups.com>,
<rrusston@hotmail.com> wrote:

and it was still
pounds, shillings, pence and no one could make change

In the days of lsd, the average person could do rudimentary mental
arithmetic. These days most need a calculator, even although a base 10
system makes things simpler.

But of you're so dismissive of a non decimal currency, why does the US
stick to imperial measurements for just about everything else?

--
*Not all men are annoying. Some are dead.

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

 

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <jg0ie4$vbc$1@dont-email.me>,
Jerry <mapson.scarts@btinternet.INVALID> wrote:

: You need to look up fires caused by poorly specified house
distribution
: systems in the US, before criticising the UK. It is many times
worse than
: here.
:

But that is not caused but the use of radial circuits (opposed to
a ring circuit), it's the poor hardware (fittings and conductor)
used that causes the problem. If radial circuits were a fire
hazard, never mind actually being the cause of fires, then just
about every film/TV studio, theatre and other entertainment
venues that have a fixed lighting rig would either have burnt
down or been shut down on H&S grounds!

Radial circuits cost more to install. Which means in practice using the
cheapest possible materials on components where they are available. And
having fewer outlets due again to cost. Resulting in the use of extension
leads or bodged extra sockets.

There is nothing wrong with radial circuits, the only two down
sides are amount of cabling needed and the size of the breaker
panel - IIRC ring circuits were introduced into the UK in an
attempt to save on cabling, due to cost. Radial circuits are
still, to this day, permitted.

No shit Sherlock.

--
*Everyone has a photographic memory. Some don't have film *

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

 

[Jerry]

"Dave Plowman (News)" <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message
news:525898c810dave@davenoise.co.uk...
: In article
:
<d552db05-8404-4043-9515-39be842d037d@c21g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>,
: <rrusston@hotmail.com> wrote:
: > > You need to look up fires caused by poorly specified house
: > > distribution systems in the US, before criticising the UK.
It is many
: > > times worse than here.
:
: > In the US, electrical house fires are mostly a result of
incompetent
: > DIY wiring or failed appliances......or arson.
:
:
: One of the major reasons is those 'wire nuts' oh so common, and
banned
: over here many many years ago.
:

Whilst wire nuts are more susceptible, the same basic fault that
wire nuts suffer can beset any mechanical joints, one of the
reasons why mechanical joints have to remain accessible. A
correctly made joint doesn't normally cause a problem, an
incorrectly made screw terminal can exhibit all the same dangers
as poorly made wire nut joint - heat and arcing.

 

[Jerry]

"Dave Plowman (News)" <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message
news:52589a64f1dave@davenoise.co.uk...
: In article <jg0ie4$vbc$1@dont-email.me>,
: Jerry <mapson.scarts@btinternet.INVALID> wrote:
: > : You need to look up fires caused by poorly specified house
: > distribution
: > : systems in the US, before criticising the UK. It is many
times
: > worse than
: > : here.
: > :
:
: > But that is not caused but the use of radial circuits
(opposed to
: > a ring circuit), it's the poor hardware (fittings and
conductor)
: > used that causes the problem. If radial circuits were a fire
: > hazard, never mind actually being the cause of fires, then
just
: > about every film/TV studio, theatre and other entertainment
: > venues that have a fixed lighting rig would either have burnt
: > down or been shut down on H&S grounds!
:
: Radial circuits cost more to install. Which means in practice
using the
: cheapest possible materials on components where they are
available. And

That might be how you and your ilk would bodge such
installations, the rest of us would budget for the higher cost!
Anyway, when you say "cheapest" what do you actually mean, any
component sold in the UK has to meet the minimum BS (or what
ever) standard, IME cheapest means basic.

: having fewer outlets due again to cost. Resulting in the use of
extension
: leads or bodged extra sockets.

Utter rubbish, especially at the time when ring circuits first
started being used in the UK, houses were being built with the
same number of outlets (ask anyone who has modernised a house
from the 1950s or '60s). As for bodged extra sockets, that is
exactly what occurs with ring circuits, because of the over
rating of the circuit protection, thus one can (and often does)
find sockets added to spurs, thus over loading the conductor but
not circuit protection. Or, and this is even more dangerous,
incomplete rings so that there are in effect two radial circuits
with any number of outlets protected at 30A rather than the more
usual 15A for a radial circuit using the same conductor size.

:
: > There is nothing wrong with radial circuits, the only two
down
: > sides are amount of cabling needed and the size of the
breaker
: > panel - IIRC ring circuits were introduced into the UK in an
: > attempt to save on cabling, due to cost. Radial circuits are
: > still, to this day, permitted.
:
: No shit Sherlock.
:

So why did you claim otherwise, making out that radial circuits
are somehow dangerous, if not an out-and-out fire risk?

 

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <jg0rog$a0b$2@dont-email.me>,
Jerry <mapson.scarts@btinternet.INVALID> wrote:

: having fewer outlets due again to cost. Resulting in the use of
extension
: leads or bodged extra sockets.

Utter rubbish, especially at the time when ring circuits first
started being used in the UK, houses were being built with the
same number of outlets (ask anyone who has modernised a house
from the 1950s or '60s). As for bodged extra sockets, that is
exactly what occurs with ring circuits, because of the over
rating of the circuit protection, thus one can (and often does)
find sockets added to spurs, thus over loading the conductor but
not circuit protection.

Dear me. You blame a final ring circuit for its design when the problems
you mention are cause by idiots modifying it *from* a ring circuit?
It's quite simple, Jerry. Those who don't understand how things work
should leave well alone. And pay someone who does to do any work needed.

Or, and this is even more dangerous,
incomplete rings so that there are in effect two radial circuits
with any number of outlets protected at 30A rather than the more
usual 15A for a radial circuit using the same conductor size.

See above. If this is how you do wiring, find a less dangerous hobby.

:
: > There is nothing wrong with radial circuits, the only two
down
: > sides are amount of cabling needed and the size of the
breaker
: > panel - IIRC ring circuits were introduced into the UK in an
: > attempt to save on cabling, due to cost. Radial circuits are
: > still, to this day, permitted.
:
: No shit Sherlock.
:

So why did you claim otherwise, making out that radial circuits
are somehow dangerous, if not an out-and-out fire risk?

You're making assumptions - yet again.

--
*Why is "abbreviated" such a long word?

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

 

[Jerry]

"Dave Plowman (News)" <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message
news:5258a88b0bdave@davenoise.co.uk...
: In article <jg0rog$a0b$2@dont-email.me>,
: Jerry <mapson.scarts@btinternet.INVALID> wrote:
: > : having fewer outlets due again to cost. Resulting in the
use of
: > extension
: > : leads or bodged extra sockets.
:
: > Utter rubbish, especially at the time when ring circuits
first
: > started being used in the UK, houses were being built with
the
: > same number of outlets (ask anyone who has modernised a house
: > from the 1950s or '60s). As for bodged extra sockets, that is
: > exactly what occurs with ring circuits, because of the over
: > rating of the circuit protection, thus one can (and often
does)
: > find sockets added to spurs, thus over loading the conductor
but
: > not circuit protection.
:
: Dear me. You blame a final ring circuit for its design when the
problems
: you mention are cause by idiots modifying it *from* a ring
circuit?

In a perfect world even "wire nuts" would be OK... But once again
Plowman misses the point, one can't -without tampering with the
panel and breakers- over load a radial circuit or appliance lead,
the same is not true of spurs or appliance lead off a ring
circuits.

: It's quite simple, Jerry. Those who don't understand how things
work
: should leave well alone. And pay someone who does to do any
work needed.

Indeed, *you* should stick to twiddling your knob(s) Mr Plowman
and pay someone to do any electrical work!

:
: > Or, and this is even more dangerous,
: > incomplete rings so that there are in effect two radial
circuits
: > with any number of outlets protected at 30A rather than the
more
: > usual 15A for a radial circuit using the same conductor size.
:
: See above. If this is how you do wiring, find a less dangerous
hobby.

No it most certainly is not how I do wiring (and I doubt that
anyone would intentionally do so), but I'm not sure you wouldn't,
as it is clear that whilst you can read and work to the
regulations you do not understand the whys and wherefores behind
them.

Ring circuits were a fudge of the then electrical standards,
brought about by the need to lower the cost -of post war-
housing, they are most certainly not "the best thing since sliced
bread", with a radial if the circuit becomes split then anything
down-stream of the split stops working or becomes
intermittent -which thus prompts investigation, if there is a
split in a ring circuit nothing is noticed until either an
electrical overload of the conductors/connectors -thus possible
fire- occurs or the integrity of the circuit is tested - in most
houses only luck decides which happens first.

:
: > :
: > : > There is nothing wrong with radial circuits, the only two
: > down
: > : > sides are amount of cabling needed and the size of the
: > breaker
: > : > panel - IIRC ring circuits were introduced into the UK in
an
: > : > attempt to save on cabling, due to cost. Radial circuits
are
: > : > still, to this day, permitted.
: > :
: > : No shit Sherlock.
: > :
:
: > So why did you claim otherwise, making out that radial
circuits
: > are somehow dangerous, if not an out-and-out fire risk?
:
: You're making assumptions - yet again.
:

Not at all, although you exhibit signs that you either have
(premature) senile debenture or you don't actually bother to read
(and understand) what you are replying to;

["rrusston" said]

"It's the goofy room wiring in loops and the goofy
sockets the Brits use I think are ridiculous."

[Plowman replied]

"You need to look up fires caused by poorly specified
house distribution systems in the US, before criticising
the UK. It is many times worse than here."

Later Plowman had to admit that it is the hardware and *not the
circuit design* that causes the problem, if the US used ring
circuits with the same hardware the self same problems with
regards to electrical fires would exists just the same.

 

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <jg159u$tg0$1@dont-email.me>,
Jerry <mapson.scarts@btinternet.INVALID> wrote:

In a perfect world even "wire nuts" would be OK... But once again
Plowman misses the point, one can't -without tampering with the
panel and breakers- over load a radial circuit or appliance lead,
the same is not true of spurs or appliance lead off a ring
circuits.

Wire nuts were banned in the UK for very good reasons. Perhaps you'd
explain why that ban was/is wrong?

And you can very easily overload 'an appliance lead' on a radial circuit,
unless it is rated at the same as the radial protection. Which it almost
never will be. That is one great benefit of the UK final ring circuit -
appliance leads are fused at the plug, and must be capable of blowing that
13 amp fuse under fault conditions. Of course idiots who play with
electricity without understanding the basics can cause havoc. You've
proved that one.

: It's quite simple, Jerry. Those who don't understand how things
work
: should leave well alone. And pay someone who does to do any
work needed.

Indeed, *you* should stick to twiddling your knob(s) Mr Plowman
and pay someone to do any electrical work!

But I understand the basics. And am capable of following the regs. They
can be bought in nice large print with coloured pictures for those who
have difficulty reading.

--
*INDECISION is the key to FLEXIBILITY *

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

 

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <jg159u$tg0$1@dont-email.me>,
Jerry <mapson.scarts@btinternet.INVALID> wrote:

Later Plowman had to admit that it is the hardware and *not the
circuit design* that causes the problem, if the US used ring
circuits with the same hardware the self same problems with
regards to electrical fires would exists just the same.

'The same hardware' as used for radial circuits is not suitable for final
ring circuits. As I keep saying, you need to learn some fundamentals
instead of making a fool of yourself.

--
*I'm not your type. I'm not inflatable.

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

In article
b7714685-c078-4a38-8aa0-3d174e338cf2@h6g2000yqk.googlegroups.com>,
rrusston@hotmail.com> wrote:
and it was still
pounds, shillings, pence and no one could make change

In the days of lsd, the average person could do rudimentary mental
arithmetic. These days most need a calculator, even although a base 10
system makes things simpler.

But of you're so dismissive of a non decimal currency, why does the US
stick to imperial measurements for just about everything else?

Because it's so simple to use in a place where we don't need a
calculator for simple math.

--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

Jerry wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message
news:525898c810dave@davenoise.co.uk...
: In article
:
d552db05-8404-4043-9515-39be842d037d@c21g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>,
: <rrusston@hotmail.com> wrote:
: > > You need to look up fires caused by poorly specified house
: > > distribution systems in the US, before criticising the UK.
It is many
: > > times worse than here.
:
: > In the US, electrical house fires are mostly a result of
incompetent
: > DIY wiring or failed appliances......or arson.
:
:
: One of the major reasons is those 'wire nuts' oh so common, and
banned
: over here many many years ago.
:

Whilst wire nuts are more susceptible, the same basic fault that
wire nuts suffer can beset any mechanical joints, one of the
reasons why mechanical joints have to remain accessible. A
correctly made joint doesn't normally cause a problem, an
incorrectly made screw terminal can exhibit all the same dangers
as poorly made wire nut joint - heat and arcing.

I've seen more burned screws than wire nuts.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

Radial circuits cost more to install. Which means in practice using the
cheapest possible materials on components where they are available. And
having fewer outlets due again to cost. Resulting in the use of extension
leads or bodged extra sockets.

The NEC requires an outlet every 10 feet along a wall, and all
materials have to be UL approved. Now for your next lies?


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

 

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message <5258b5bb27dave@davenoise.co.uk>, "Dave Plowman (News)"
<dave@davenoise.co.uk> writes:

In article <jg159u$tg0$1@dont-email.me>,
Jerry <mapson.scarts@btinternet.INVALID> wrote:
Later Plowman had to admit that it is the hardware and *not the
circuit design* that causes the problem, if the US used ring
circuits with the same hardware the self same problems with
regards to electrical fires would exists just the same.

'The same hardware' as used for radial circuits is not suitable for final
ring circuits. As I keep saying, you need to learn some fundamentals
instead of making a fool of yourself.

As an outsider viewing this argument with interest (albeit one who grew

up in Germany, with _properly designed and specified_ non-ring circuits,
so find them odd), I'm curious what the word "final" means here, as it
seems to be being deliberately left in in a way that suggests it _is_
significant.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

It was kind of Wagnerian in that it was totally for blokes, but it didn't have
difficult woodwind passages. Stuart Maconie (on "Tommy") in Radio Times, 14-20
November 2009.

 

[Dave Liquorice]

On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 12:40:57 -0500, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

The NEC requires an outlet every 10 feet along a wall, and all
materials have to be UL approved. Now for your next lies?

Just counted up how many double 13A sockets we've just put into the
refurbished *half* of this place: 38. That makes for one helluva fuse
board if each was a radial... They are split over four rings as it
is.

--
Cheers
Dave.

 

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message <nyyfbegfubjuvyypbz.lyjda42.pminews@srv1.howhill.co.uk>, Dave
Liquorice <allsortsnotthisbit@howhill.co.uk> writes:

On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 12:40:57 -0500, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

The NEC requires an outlet every 10 feet along a wall, and all
materials have to be UL approved. Now for your next lies?

Just counted up how many double 13A sockets we've just put into the
refurbished *half* of this place: 38. That makes for one helluva fuse
board if each was a radial... They are split over four rings as it
is.

So? You used four rings - thus nearly 10 to a ring. Why wouldn't someone

doing it with radials not put several on each radial?

[And how about a few crossply (-:?]
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

It was kind of Wagnerian in that it was totally for blokes, but it didn't have
difficult woodwind passages. Stuart Maconie (on "Tommy") in Radio Times, 14-20
November 2009.

 

[Andy Wade]

On 28/01/2012 20:05, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

I'm curious what the word "final" means here, as it seems to be
being deliberately left in in a way that suggests it _is_
significant.

A final circuit is simply one that directly feeds 'points of
utilisation' - lights, socket-outlets, etc. A typical domestic
installation with a single consumer unit only has final circuits.

OTOH an installation in a larger building is likely to have a number of
intermediate distribution boards fed from the main intake via
*distribution circuits*. Said boards then feed final circuits or further
levels of sub-distribution (or both) . Distribution circuits which feed
separate (out)buildings from a common supply intake are known as submains.

HTH
--
Andy

 

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message
<b41ff64d-a853-480c-b096-286a8683b377@y10g2000vbn.googlegroups.com>,
rrusston@hotmail.com writes:
[]

In Britain they will still refer to people, fat people especially as
being "so many stone". And they used a lot of units we never did in
daily matters.

Not just fat people - "seven stone weakling" is a not-unknown
expression.
[]

(excluding the US and Canada) and Japan, drive on the wrong side of
the road, AS COMPARED TO_EVERYWHERE_. Sorry, but THAT is weird. The

It's not the wrong side, it's the left side (-:.

Irish would do well to switch. Boston is FAR more important to them
than London!

I was about to agree with you, then I remembered that they have a land
border with the UK, and not with Boston. And they're more likely to
bring their car to England, too.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

It was kind of Wagnerian in that it was totally for blokes, but it didn't have
difficult woodwind passages. Stuart Maconie (on "Tommy") in Radio Times, 14-20
November 2009.

 

On Jan 28, 5:05 am, "Dave Plowman (News)" <d...@davenoise.co.uk>
wrote:

In article
b7714685-c078-4a38-8aa0-3d174e338...@h6g2000yqk.googlegroups.com>,
   <rruss...@hotmail.com> wrote:

and it was still
pounds, shillings, pence and no one could make change

In the days of lsd, the average person could do rudimentary mental
arithmetic. These days most need a calculator, even although a base 10
system makes things simpler.

But of you're so dismissive of a non decimal currency, why does the US
stick to imperial measurements for just about everything else?

If you're a machinist or a shooter you use decimal inches. Works
fine.

Either the imperial or metric system works fine. Americans have used
metric in science and medicine since the War of Northern Aggression or
so. What doesn't work fine is the commonly used Metric standard
threads used on nuts and bolts. Actually-the old Whitworth thread form
was most superior. But UNC and UNF are BIG improvements on Metric.

In Britain they will still refer to people, fat people especially as
being "so many stone". And they used a lot of units we never did in
daily matters.

Nautical miles and knots (nm/hr) are still the appropriate measure of
distance and speed at sea universally.

L/s/d (I don't have the Brit pound key and don't remember the ANSI
sequence) currency worked okay for the Brits, but visitors from no
other country easily made change. And of course the Anglosphere
(excluding the US and Canada) and Japan, drive on the wrong side of
the road, AS COMPARED TO_EVERYWHERE_. Sorry, but THAT is weird. The
Irish would do well to switch. Boston is FAR more important to them
than London!

 

Wire nuts are a safe method of connecting wires if they are correctly
specified for wire gauge and used only once as specified. They were
introduced as a much safer alternative to soldering, because of the
fire danger in using blowtorches as would then have been required.

 

[J G Miller]

On Saturday, January 28th, 2012, at 15:22:08h -0800, R Russton wrote:

Boston is FAR more important to them than London!

More specifically South Boston where a lot of fund raising
was done by NORAID.

<http://www.highbeam.COM/doc/1P2-8125863.html>